Inspirations

[2D8HP]

Nothing to see here yet!


http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?512619-What-was-your-quot-realization-moment-quot-in-D-amp-D


I was probably most influenced by seeing Sinbad vs. the scheming sorcerer Sokurah, when I saw "The 7th Voyage of Sinbad" (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=tGCuLWdZTDs&itct=CBgQpDAYAiITCJ3h5IKW0c0CFUHcfgodyloJHzIHcmVsY Xhttp://1.bp.blogspot.com/-QTIeBuLnD-A/UR_ToMA9-VI/AAAAAAAAAKA/q8g2RT4XY-s/s1600/holmes+box.jpglZEjCz6XC1bmil_AB) at the drive-in (since I later learned that the movie was made in the 1950's it must have been re-released in the early 1970's). I can specially remember first watching it through the back window of a V.W. bug while my parents watched something boring Burt Reynolds movie through the front window, and marveling at the Dragon and the sword wielding skeleton! And sometimes "Jason and the Argonauts" (http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Sg1v5HkpdEA) was on the T.V.!
I read the "Arabian Nights", Greek mythology and a lot of science fiction,








http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-QTIeBuLnD-A/UR_ToMA9-VI/AAAAAAAAAKA/q8g2RT4XY-s/s1600/holmes+box.jpgyou just explore a fantastic world that has freakin' dragons inside of dungeons!
NO IT DOESN'T GET ANY BETTER!
Sign me up now and forever!http://i2.wp.com/shaneplays.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/dungeons_and_dragons_dd_basic_set_1stedition_origi nal_box_holmes_edition.jpg?zoom=4&resize=312%2C386Morgana in
Excalibur [/B]
http://vignette3.wikia.nocookie.net/villains/images/c/cd/Morgana_le_Fay_%28Excalibur%29.jpg/revision/latest/thumbnail-down/width/310/height/400?cb=20120613023217
Played by Helen Freakin' Mirren!
http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2010/03/28/article-1261362-08E86EC1000005DC-613_634x416.jpg

Sokurah the Magician in
The 7th Voyage of Sinbad
http://www.aveleyman.com/Gallery/ActorsT/17009-17024.gif[/b]
Played by Torin Thatcher
Conan the Barbarian[/I]
http://IMAGES1.laweekly.com/imager/even-darth-vader-would-keep-his-distance-f/u/original/2440704/jej02a.jpg
Played by James Earl "Lord Vader" Jones!
T The class is called "Ranger" because Aragorn was a called a ranger and early D&D was 100% a Tolkien riff

100%?

*sputter*

:furious:

Dem's fighting words!

(Your right about the Ranger though)

:smile:

I invite you to first read the "Tolkien in Dungeons & Dragons article before the rest of my rant :smallwink:

The Dragon, April 1978 (https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=19&ved=0ahUKEwjF7M6zq63PAhUK2GMKHVGwAek4ChAWCDMwCA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fannarchive.com%2Ffiles%2FDrmg013. pdf&usg=AFQjCNEqxEn338NGRRoH7jByJdsBMEIcSw)

Read it?
Good.


These rules are strictly fantasy. Those wargamers who lack imagination, those who don't care for Burroughs'
Martian adventures where John Carter is groping through black pits, who feel no thrill upon reading Howard's Conan saga, who do not enjoy the de Camp & Pratt fantasies or Fritz Leiber's Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser
pitting their swords against evil sorceries will not be likely to find Dungeons & Dragons to their taste. But those whose imaginations know no bounds will find that these rules are the answer to their prayers. With this last
bit of advice we invite you to read on and enjoy a "world" where the fantastic is fact and magic really works!
E. Gary Gygax
Tactical Studies Rules Editor
1 November 1973
Lake Geneva, Wisconsin

To cite a few, Law/Chaos started out as the only axis of D&D alignment back in 1974.The literary antecedents of Law and Chaos were Poul Anderson (Three Hearts and Three Lions) and Michael Moorcock's Elric of Melinbourne.
Having read some Michael Moorcock, I'm also pretty sure the Lawful vs. Chaotic axis exists because Gary Gygax didn't understand the concept of satire or the possibility that the reader was supposed to disapprove of the protagonist.The "Thief" (later the "Rogue") class owes much to Leiber's the "Gray Mouser", Abraham Merritt' The Metal Monster is likely an inspiration for Modrons, and D&D Trolls are much more like the one in "Three Hearts and Three Lions", than the Trolls in Tolkien.
To mangle Kipling:
"What should they who only know of Dungeons & Dragons, of D&D know?"
(I believe the original poem (http://www.telelib.com/authors/K/KiplingRudyard/verse/volumeXI/englishflag.html) was about some tiny place where it rains a lot, which is clearly not as important as D&D!).
I've been loving RPG's since 1978, but if I had to choose between losing all of RPG material published after then or most any chapter of the APPENDIX N works that [B] inspired D&D, I would not hesitate to save the pre '78 works. I love my musty old books, and I refuse to accept that they're irrelevant!
Imric the elf-earl rode out by night to see what happened in the lands of men. It was a cool spring dark with the moon nearly full, time glittering on the grass and the stars still hard and bright as in winter. The night was very quiet save for the sigh of wind in budding branches, and the world was all sliding shadows and cold white light. The hoofs of Imric's horse was shod with an alloy of silver, and as high clear ringing went where they struck.
He rode into a forest. Night lay heavy between the trees, but from afar he spied a ruddy glimmer. When he came near, he saw it was firefight shinning through cracks in a hut of mud and wattles under a great gnarly oak from whose boughs Imric remembered the Druids cutting mistletoe. He could sense that a witch lived here, so he dismounted and rapped on the door. Get thee to a library!

*breathing slows*

*face loses red hue*

Of course your right about Tolkien being a big influence:

But in the 1970s, the road to D&D went through the Shire for almost all players. There is no way to express just how big LotR was with college-age Boomers.I was a kid under the "age limit" when I first started playing DnD in the 1970's, but I can specially remember when I first got the (1e) PHB how my Dad's girlfriend and her friend (who were real live "adults"!) saw it and then expounded on their playing DnD (that deeper levels of the Dungeon had more dangerous monsters is what I remember them telling me). Tolkien was everywhere! I remember a girl named "Arwen" (yes she was cute, but sadly her ears were not pointed), our cat was named "Wizard" (parents picked the names not kids!).
While it was pretty close in time, I actually don't think I had read any Tolkien before playing DnD, I only saw the "The Hobbit" cartoon (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=qT8jCTUqgzg) which I saw on channel 5 about the same time that I first encountered a Dungeons and Dragons box (http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-QTIeBuLnD-A/UR_ToMA9-VI/AAAAAAAAAKA/q8g2RT4XY-s/s1600/holmes+box.jpg).
Reading the books was what the "grown-ups" did! I was probably most influenced by seeing Sinbad vs. the scheming sorcerer Sokurah, when I saw "The 7th Voyage of Sinbad" (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=tGCuLWdZTDs&itct=CBgQpDAYAiITCJ3h5IKW0c0CFUHcfgodyloJHzIHcmVsY Xhttp://1.bp.blogspot.com/-QTIeBuLnD-A/UR_ToMA9-VI/AAAAAAAAAKA/q8g2RT4XY-s/s1600/holmes+box.jpglZEjCz6XC1bmil_AB) at the drive-in (since I later learned that the movie was made in the 1950's it must have been re-released in the early 1970's). I can specially remember first watching it through the back window of a V.W. bug while my parents watched something boring Burt Reynolds movie through the front window, and marveling at the Dragon and the sword wielding skeleton! And sometimes "Jason and the Argonauts" (http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Sg1v5HkpdEA) was on the T.V.!
I read the "Arabian Nights", Greek mythology and a lot of science fiction, but actual fantasy fiction before playing D&D? Maybe a couple of Conan short stories if that. The "Catspaw" episode of Star Trek influenced my vision of the Dungeon, and old Errol Flynn movies influenced my vision of what PC's should be like!
Another big influence was
Later fantasy books, films etc. were all post D&D for me. I can remember watching "Conan the Destroyer" and "Young Sherlock Holmes" in the movie theater and thinking of how I was going to steal homage some elements in my games!
Except for the cartoon I absorbed "Middle Earth" second hand mostly from the grown-ups who loved LotR, but I myself definitely read it after DnD.
impressions of "Fantasy" were from reading a child's version of "The Arabian Nights" (I think around Kindergarten), that and seeing Sinbad vs. the scheming sorcerer Sokurah, when I saw "The 7th Voyage of Sinbad" (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=tGCuLWdZTDs) at the drive-in (since I later learned that the movie was made in the 1950's it must have been re-released in the early 1970's). I can specially remember first watching it through the back window of a V.W. bug while my parents watched something boring Burt Reynolds movie through the front window, and marveling at the Dragon and the sword wielding skeleton!I assume that most if us who read this Forum are here because we're fans of OOTS, and thus have a passing familiarity with the game of Dungeons & Dragons, and it's imitators.
I learned of OOTS from reading print issues of "The Dragon", which I read because I am a D&D fan, but some playgrounders have written that they came to D&D from OOTS rather than the other way around (which has me puzzled and a little jealous)!
Assuming you play a FRPG like D&D, what early (or recent) media inspirations did you have for your PC's and your "World's"?
For my earliest "inspirations", I was probably most influenced by seeing Sinbad vs. the scheming sorcerer Sokurah, when I saw "The 7th Voyage of Sinbad" (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=tGCuLWdZTDs&itct=CBgQpDAYAiITCJ3h5IKW0c0CFUHcfgodyloJHzIHcmVsY Xhttp://1.bp.blogspot.com/-QTIeBuLnD-A/UR_ToMA9-VI/AAAAAAAAAKA/q8g2RT4XY-s/s1600/holmes+box.jpglZEjCz6XC1bmil_AB) at the drive-in (since I later learned that the movie was made in the 1950's it must have been re-released in the early 1970's). I can specially remember first watching it through the back window of a V.W. bug while my parents watched something boring Burt Reynolds movie through the front window, and marveling at the Dragon and the sword wielding skeleton! And sometimes "Jason and the Argonauts" (http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Sg1v5HkpdEA) was on the T.V.!
I read the "Arabian Nights", Greek mythology and a lot of science fiction, but actual fantasy fiction before playing D&D? Maybe a couple of Conan short stories if that. The "Catspaw" episode of Star Trek influenced my vision of the Dungeon, and old Errol Flynn movies influenced my vision of what PC's should be like!
Another big influence was "The Hobbit" cartoon (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=qT8jCTUqgzg) which I saw on channel 5 about the same time that I first encountered a Dungeons and Dragons box (http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-QTIeBuLnD-A/UR_ToMA9-VI/AAAAAAAAAKA/q8g2RT4XY-s/s1600/holmes+box.jpg).
Later fantasy books, films etc. were all post D&D for me. I can remember watching "Conan the Destroyer" and "Young Sherlock Holmes" in the movie theater and thinking of how I was going to steal homage some elements in my games!
Just this month a PC I've "rolled up" was inspired by the "Delilah Bard" character from the novels "A Darker Shade of Magic" (http://www.tor.com/2015/01/21/a-darker-shade-of-magic-excerpt-v-e-schwab/), and "A Gathering of Shadows" (http://www.tor.com/2015/09/28/excerpts-a-gathering-of-shadows-ve-schwab/).
How about you?Because in learning the "tropes" of Fantasy fiction as a kid the Spell-casters were mostly the bad guys!
I was probably more influenced by seeing Sinbad vs. the scheming sorcerer Sokurah, when I saw "The 7th Voyage of Sinbad" (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=tGCuLWdZTDs&itct=CBgQpDAYAiITCJ3h5IKW0c0CFUHcfgodyloJHzIHcmVsY Xhttp://1.bp.blogspot.com/-QTIeBuLnD-A/UR_ToMA9-VI/AAAAAAAAAKA/q8g2RT4XY-s/s1600/holmes+box.jpglZEjCz6XC1bmil_AB) at the drive-in (since I later learned that the movie was made in the 1950's it must have been re-released). I can specially remember watching it through the back window of a V.W. bug while my parents watched something boring through the front window, and marveling at the Dragon and the sword wielding skeleton! And sometimes "Jason and the Argonauts" (http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Sg1v5HkpdEA) was on the T.V.!
I read the "Arabian Nights", Greek mythology and a lot of science fiction, but actual fantasy fiction before playing DnD? Maybe a couple of Conan short stories if that. The "Catspaw" episode of Star Trek influenced my vision of the Dungeon, and old Errol Flynn movies influenced my vision of what PC's should be like (wields bows or swords not staffs and wands!).
Another big influence was "Bard" from "The Hobbit" cartoon (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=qT8jCTUqgzg) which I saw on channel 5 about the same time that I first encountered a Dungeons and Dragons box (http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-QTIeBuLnD-A/UR_ToMA9-VI/AAAAAAAAAKA/q8g2RT4XY-s/s1600/holmes+box.jpg).
Another factor is that I simply don't have the mental agility that I had in the 1970's and 80's!
Other classes are often cited as more "effective" in this Forum, but they wouldn't be in my hands, because I wouldn't be able to keep track of and actually use the options.
The "Champion" Fighter class allows me to play D&D with actual other people. Without that class, the complexity of other classes would have me just continue looking forlornly at the 1970's rules DnD materials I have, wishing I could find someone to again play the game with. I spent over two decades away from the game already and I don't want to repeat that. I have an eleven year-old and a newborn to care for as well as a more then full-time job, plus I simply no longer have the time (or maybe the ability) to master a more complex class.
I'm grateful that Wotc hasn't revised the game in such a way that I may no longer play except with yet more "options"I don't want to need to memorize. Spell-casters just aren't the swords and sorcery archetype I want to role-play, and I just find them to be too complex for my 48 year-old brain to learn.
That's part of the beauty of 5e, it allows someone like me who needs simplicity to share a table with those who crave "options".
No it's not "One game to rule them all" (what is?), but it still remains fun.
Long live the "Fighter"!
Currently, yes. But in the 1970s, the road to D&D went through the Shire for almost all players. There is no way to express just how big LotR was with college-age Boomers.
This so very much!
I was a kid under the "age limit" when I first started playing DnD in the 1970's, but I can specially remember when I first got the (1e) PHB how my Dad's girlfriend and her friend (who were real live "adults"!) saw it and then expounded on their playing DnD (that deeper levels of the Dungeon had more dangerous monsters is what I remember them telling me). Tolkien was everywhere! I remember a girl named "Arwen" (yes she was cute, but sadly her ears were not pointed), our cat was named "Wizard" (parents picked the names not kids!).
While it was pretty close in time, I actually don't think I had read any Tolkien before playing DnD, I only saw the Hobbit cartoon on channel 5! Reading the books was what the "grown-ups" did! I was probably more influenced by seeing "7th Voyage of Sinbad" at the drive-in (since I later learned that the movie was made in the 1950's it must have been re-released). I can specially remember watching it through the back window of a V.W. bug while my parents watched something boring through the front window, and marveling at the Dragon and the sword wielding skeleton! And sometimes "Jason and the Argonauts" was on the T.V.!
I read Greek mythology and a lot of science fiction, but actual fantasy fiction before playing DnD? Maybe a couple of Conan short stories if that. The "Catspaw" episode of Star Trek influenced my vision of the Dungeon, and old Errol Flynn movies influenced my vision of what PC's should be like.
Except for the cartoon I absorbed "Middle Earth" second hand mostly from the grown-ups who loved LotR, but I myself definitely read it after DnD (I may have read the "Hobbit" about the same time though).
Decades later, while among a big pile of deceased PC character sheets of mine, they're Dwarves, Elves, half-elves, and half-orcs, they are no "halflings".OK let me try to clear my mental cobwebs away and think back:
In about 1978 I picked up the D&D "Basic set", the guy who later became my best friend (R.I.P. last year) saw me reading the "blue book", and invited me to play at his house were his older brother was the DM using the '74 original rules plus supplements. So the "gang" was High School classes of '83 (the first DM, and his friends ('83 & '84), his brother, me and a couple others of the class of '86, and my brother (class of 1989), so a six year age difference spread, but with most within three years of each other.
Fortunately my best friend's brother (our first DM) was accepted into U.C Berkeley and stayed in town, so we had eight years of gaming before "real life" broke up "The Fellowship".
IIRC I was the one who introduced most of the Advanced Dungeons and Dragons materials, Gamaworld, Ringworld and GURPS, while my best friend introduced most every other RPG (Traveller, Runequest, Paranoia, Champions and MERP/Rolemaster), his older brother of course introduced us to original D&D/Arduin, with minor detours into Villains and Vigilantes, Chivalry & Sorcery, and Stormbringer!, and a major detour into Car Wars. My brother (class of 1989) started us on Empire of the Petal Throne, and Top Secret, which fell on me to GM which I did but using mostly Call of Cthullu rules! I'm not sure who introduced CoC (mysterious that)?
After high school I very briefly played "variant" D&D with "grown-ups", but that ended because of something the DM's girlfriend put on my shoulder that I objected to (and I was attacked by their Ferret!), and then Vampire, Shadowrun, Cyberpunk and now 5e D&D (as well as my buying and reading a mountain of RPG's I've never played).



For my earliest "inspirations", I was probably most influenced by seeing Sinbad vs. the scheming sorcerer Sokurah, when I saw "The 7th Voyage of Sinbad" (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=tGCuLWdZTDs&itct=CBgQpDAYAiITCJ3h5IKW0c0CFUHcfgodyloJHzIHcmVsY Xhttp://1.bp.blogspot.com/-QTIeBuLnD-A/UR_ToMA9-VI/AAAAAAAAAKA/q8g2RT4XY-s/s1600/holmes+box.jpglZEjCz6XC1bmil_AB) at the drive-in (since I later learned that the movie was made in the 1950's it must have been re-released in the early 1970's). I can specially remember first watching it through the back window of a V.W. bug while my parents watched something boring Burt Reynolds movie through the front window, and marveling at the Dragon and the sword wielding skeleton! And sometimes "Jason and the Argonauts" (http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Sg1v5HkpdEA) was on the T.V.!
I read the "Arabian Nights", Greek mythology and a lot of science fiction, but actual fantasy fiction before playing D&D? Maybe a couple of Conan short stories if that. The "Catspaw" episode of Star Trek influenced my vision of the Dungeon, and old Errol Flynn movies influenced my vision of what PC's should be like!
Another big influence was "The Hobbit" cartoon (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=qT8jCTUqgzg) which I saw on channel 5 about the same time that I first encountered a Dungeons and Dragons box (http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-QTIeBuLnD-A/UR_ToMA9-VI/AAAAAAAAAKA/q8g2RT4XY-s/s1600/holmes+box.jpg).
Later fantasy books, films etc. were all post D&D for me. I can remember watching "Conan the Destroyer" and "Young Sherlock Holmes" in the movie theater and thinking of how I was going to steal homage some elements in my games!
Just this month a PC I've "rolled up" was inspired by the "Delilah Bard" character from the novels "A Darker Shade of Magic" (http://www.tor.com/2015/01/21/a-darker-shade-of-magic-excerpt-v-e-schwab/), and "A Gathering of Shadows" (http://www.tor.com/2015/09/28/excerpts-a-gathering-of-shadows-ve-schwab/).

[2D8HP]

Dragons

Vermithrax in "Dragonslayer" is the Dragon that shapes my vision of Dragons, and that she is a mother who mourns her young makes the story more interesting (yes I know personally that fathers mourn their young too, but different storytelling baggage).

http://i0.wp.com/4.bp.blogspot.com/_talQIilzbfQ/SnmYcLF0Q3I/AAAAAAAAAUQ/Q9RWFIUpBz8/s320/2509ccca24c0760.jpg?zoom=4&w=742

+1 I care the "guilty pleasure" movies:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/a/a6/Seventh_voyage_of_sinbad.jpg/220px-Seventh_voyage_of_sinbad.jpg

Seventh Yoyage of Sinbad

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/6/60/Excalibur_movie_poster.jpg/220px-Excalibur_movie_poster.jpg

Excalibur

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/7/74/FirstMenontheMoon.jpg/225px-FirstMenontheMoon.jpg

First Men in the Moon

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/3d/Brown%2Cr_time_macine60.jpg/220px-Brown%2Cr_time_macine60.jpg

The Time Machine

Next, films that got me to cry or cheer:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/9/9f/Wrathposters141.jpg/220px-Wrathposters141.jpg

The Grapes of Wrath

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/b3/CasablancaPoster-Gold.jpg/220px-CasablancaPoster-Gold.jpg

Casablanca

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/9/99/Falconm.JPG/220px-Falconm.JPG

The Maltese Falcon (http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=boZoLR17If8)

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/3/35/Double_indemnity.jpg/220px-Double_indemnity.jpg

Double Indemity (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=S3wjJcuGsVE)

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/2/21/ThirdManUSPoster.jpg/220px-ThirdManUSPoster.jpg

The Third Man (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=M7d9VpSdGhA)

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/75/Vertigomovie_restoration.jpg/220px-Vertigomovie_restoration.jpg

Vertigo (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Z5jvQwwHQNY)

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/2/29/Johnny_Got_His_Gun_poster.jpg/250px-Johnny_Got_His_Gun_poster.jpg

Johnny Got His Gun

[2D8HP]

Thank you.

As a side note, have you ever seen Konosuba?

Nope, I've only seen two "Anima" movie's one was 1984's Nausicaa of the Valley of the Wind, and the other was 1979's Galaxy Express 999.

Some other genre related films I've seen have been:

1958's Seventh Yoyage of Sinbad,

1977's Sinbad and the Eye of the Tiger,

1977's The Hobbit (cartoon),

1978's The Lord of the Rings (cartoon)

1980's Hawk the Slayer,

1981's Dragonslayer,

1981's Excalibur,

1982's Conan the Barbarian,

1982's The Sword and the Sorcerer,

1984's Conan the Destroyer.

2001's The Fellowship of the Ring, and

2002's The Two Towers.

Please let me know about how Cantrip's work. Does "at will" mean may cast any and every turn the PC is conscious?
With an INT of 16 and the Firebolt Cantrip, is the attack roll:
1d20+5 (INT modifer of +3, and proficiency bonus of +2).
And is the damage roll:
1d10+3 (INT modifer of +3),

for Rolen the High Elf Rogue (www.myth-weavers.com/sheet.html#id=894706"), is that correct?

[2D8HP]

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?512619-What-was-your-quot-realization-moment-quot-in-D-amp-D


I was probably most influenced by seeing Sinbad vs. the scheming sorcerer Sokurah, when I saw "The 7th Voyage of Sinbad" (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=tGCuLWdZTDs&itct=CBgQpDAYAiITCJ3h5IKW0c0CFUHcfgodyloJHzIHcmVsY Xhttp://1.bp.blogspot.com/-QTIeBuLnD-A/UR_ToMA9-VI/AAAAAAAAAKA/q8g2RT4XY-s/s1600/holmes+box.jpglZEjCz6XC1bmil_AB) at the drive-in (since I later learned that the movie was made in the 1950's it must have been re-released in the early 1970's). I can specially remember first watching it through the back window of a V.W. bug while my parents watched something boring Burt Reynolds movie through the front window, and marveling at the Dragon and the sword wielding skeleton! And sometimes "Jason and the Argonauts" (http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Sg1v5HkpdEA) was on the T.V.!
I read the "Arabian Nights", Greek mythology and a lot of science fiction,

[2D8HP]

For my earliest "inspirations", I was probably most influenced by seeing Sinbad vs. the scheming sorcerer Sokurah, when I saw "The 7th Voyage of Sinbad" (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=tGCuLWdZTDs&itct=CBgQpDAYAiITCJ3h5IKW0c0CFUHcfgodyloJHzIHcmVsY Xhttp://1.bp.blogspot.com/-QTIeBuLnD-A/UR_ToMA9-VI/AAAAAAAAAKA/q8g2RT4XY-s/s1600/holmes+box.jpglZEjCz6XC1bmil_AB) at the drive-in (since I later learned that the movie was made in the 1950's it must have been re-released in the early 1970's). I can specially remember first watching it through the back window of a V.W. bug while my parents watched something boring Burt Reynolds movie through the front window, and marveling at the Dragon and the sword wielding skeleton! And sometimes "Jason and the Argonauts" (http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Sg1v5HkpdEA) was on the T.V.!
I read the "Arabian Nights", Greek mythology and a lot of science fiction, but actual fantasy fiction before playing D&D? Maybe a couple of Conan short stories if that. The "Catspaw" episode of Star Trek influenced my vision of the Dungeon, and old Errol Flynn movies influenced my vision of what PC's should be like!
Another big influence was "The Hobbit" cartoon (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=qT8jCTUqgzg) which I saw on channel 5 about the same time that I first encountered a Dungeons and Dragons box (http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-QTIeBuLnD-A/UR_ToMA9-VI/AAAAAAAAAKA/q8g2RT4XY-s/s1600/holmes+box.jpg).
Later fantasy books, films etc. were all post D&D for me. I can remember watching "Conan the Destroyer" and "Young Sherlock Holmes" in the movie theater and thinking of how I was going to steal homage some elements in my games!
Just this month a PC I've "rolled up" was inspired by the "Delilah Bard" character from the novels "A Darker Shade of Magic" (http://www.tor.com/2015/01/21/a-darker-shade-of-magic-excerpt-v-e-schwab/), and "A Gathering of Shadows" (http://www.tor.com/2015/09/28/excerpts-a-gathering-of-shadows-ve-schwab/).

[2D8HP]

Sometime before my twelfth birthday (I specifically remember that I was under the "for adults 12 years and up."limit) at some toy store in some shopping mall, I saw this:
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-QTIeBuLnD-A/UR_ToMA9-VI/AAAAAAAAAKA/q8g2RT4XY-s/s1600/holmes+box.jpg
Did I come home with it that day?
No.
:smallfrown:
Did I whine like a hungry puppy until it was mine?
Yes! Yes! and Yes!
I mean LOOK AT IT!
:smallbiggrin:
Such shear AWESOMICITY!, AWESOMOSITY! , and HELLA METAL BADASSADRY! created longings I could hardly understand!
A Wizard with a Magic Wand!
:smallsmile:
A warrior in armor with a longbow and sword!
:smallsmile: :smallsmile:
and,
A Dragon on a giant pile of treasure in a dungeon!
:smallbiggrin: :smallbiggrin: :smallbiggrin:
After I finally received the majestic 46 page rulebook (and read it straight through three times so I could "get it"), my little brother was the first victim player that I DM'd.
How I longed to be the player exploring the Dungeon myself (and really I still do)!
Sometime in 6th grade (so late 1978 or early 1979) a classmate saw me reading the "blue book" and invited me to a game of D&D that his teenage older brother was the DM of. The rules?
The three LBB's, Greyhawk, Blackmoor, Eldrich Wizardry, God's Demigods and Heroes, the Arduin Grimouire's, All the World's Monster's, and the Monster Manual! (but no Chainmail or Swords and Spells, which I didn't see until the mid 1980's).
BEST GAME EVER!
The next RPG was "Villains and Vigilantes" and then it was off to the races!
How about for you?
What brought you to the hobby?

[2D8HP]

SPOILER=set up from 39 years ago!]100 years ago the sorcerer Zenopus built a tower on the low hills overlooking Portown. The tower was close to the sea cliffs west of the town and, appropriately, next door to the graveyard.
Rumor has it that the magician made extensive cellars and tunnels underneath the tower. The town is located on the ruins of a much older city of doubtful history and Zenopus was said to excavate in his cellars in search of ancient treasures.

Fifty years ago, on a cold wintry night, the wizard's tower was suddenly engulfed in green flame. Several of his human servants escaped the holocaust, saying their rnaster had been destroyed by some powerful force he had unleashed in the depths of the tower.
Needless to say the tower stood vacant fora while afterthis, but then the neighbors and the night watchmen comploined that ghostly blue lights appeared in the windows at night, that ghastly screams could be heard emanating from the tower ot all hours, and goblin figures could be seen dancina on the tower roof in the moonlight. Finally the authorities had a catapult rolled through the streets of the town and the tower was battered to rubble. This stopped the hauntings but the townsfolk continue to shun the ruins. The entrance to the old dungeons can be easily located as a flight of broad stone steps leading down into darkness, but the few adventurous souls who hove descended into crypts below the ruin have either reported only empty stone corridors or have failed to return at all.
Other magic-users have moved into the town but the site of the old tower remains abandoned.
Whispered tales are told of fabulous treasure and unspeakable monsters in the underground passages below the hilltop, and the story tellers are always careful to point out that the reputed dungeons lie in close proximity to the foundations of the older, pre-human city, to the graveyard, and to the sea.
Portown is a small but busy city 'linking the caravan routes from the south to the merchant ships that dare the pirate-infested waters of the Northern Sea. Humans and non-humans from all over the globe meet here.
At he Green Dragon Inn, the players of the game gather their characters for an assault on the fabulous passages beneath the ruined Wizard's tower.

:smile:

[2D8HP]

Since this game I was once privileged to play seems dead :smallfrown:, I've decided to use the thread to park and edit a future post while I refine it




*sigh*

This again.

In the novel Three Hearts and Three Lions (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Hearts_and_Three_Lions) by Poul Anderson,
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/3/39/ThreeHeartsAndThreeLions.jpg/220px-ThreeHeartsAndThreeLions.jpg
which was published before and inspired Moorcock's "Law vs. Chaos" conflict, it was only sometimes "Law", and usually it was indeed "Order" vs. "Chaos", and Anderson expressly conflated Holger's struggle against Morgan le Fay and the "Host of Faerie" with the battle against the Nazis in our world.

To learn what is ment by "chaotic/good", "lawful/evil" etc. ask the DM of that particular table, it means what the DM says it means

If you want you can also read the article which first had the term.

I first read a copy of it in the 1980 "Best of The Dragon" which is next to me. It reprinted the original article in the;
Strategic Review: February 1976 (http://annarchive.com/files/Strv201.pdf)




illustration (http://lh5.ggpht.com/mitchaskari/SN9KYLvpKSI/AAAAAAAAGrk/gxPmMlYaDIQ/s1600-h/illus1%5B2%5D.jpg)

illustration (http://lh5.ggpht.com/mitchaskari/SN9KaWTQKmI/AAAAAAAAGrs/EY_aYEhHcvs/s1600-h/n1%5B5%5D.jpg)

illustration (http://lh4.ggpht.com/mitchaskari/SN9KcgaWCfI/AAAAAAAAGr0/cZZSquIxTn4/s1600-h/n2a%5B2%5D.jpg)

illustration (http://lh6.ggpht.com/mitchaskari/SN9KfERen3I/AAAAAAAAGr8/Sb0VAeS3nKM/s1600-h/N2b%5B2%5D.jpg)

illustration (http://lh4.ggpht.com/mitchaskari/SN9KifB_yhI/AAAAAAAAGsI/O4eV2OSXAng/N3_thumb.jpg?imgmax=800)


illustration (http://lh6.ggpht.com/mitchaskari/SN9KhU85a1I/AAAAAAAAGsE/nnA-2gMCFyI/s1600-h/N3%5B2%5D.jpg)


illustration (http://lh6.ggpht.com/mitchaskari/SN9Kj5-_N2I/AAAAAAAAGsM/f6v1q8cQDGY/s1600-h/illus2%5B2%5D.jpg)


illustration (http://lh5.ggpht.com/mitchaskari/SN9KmQCwDXI/AAAAAAAAGsU/_suYkwtUadA/s1600-h/Illus3%5B2%5D.jpg)



THE MEANING OF LAW AND CHAOS IN DUNGEONS & DRAGONS AND THEIR RELATIONSHIPS TO GOOD AND EVIL

by Gary Gygax

FEBRUARY 1976

Many questions continue to arise regarding what constitutes a “lawful” act, what sort of behavior is “chaotic”, what constituted an “evil” deed, and how certain behavior is “good”. There is considerable confusion in that most dungeonmasters construe the terms “chaotic” and “evil” to mean the same thing, just as they define “lawful” and “good” to mean the same. This is scarcely surprising considering the wording of the three original volumes of DUNGEONS & DRAGONS. When that was written they meant just about the same thing in my mind — notice I do not say they were synonymous in my thinking at, that time. The wording in the GREYHAWK supplement added a bit more confusion, for by the time that booklet was written some substantial differences had been determined. In fact, had I the opportunity to do D&D over I would have made the whole business very much clearer by differentiating the four categories, and many chaotic creatures would be good, while many lawful creatures would be evil. Before going into the definitions of these four terms, a graphic representation of their relative positions will help the reader to follow the further discourse. (Illustration I)

Notice first that the area of neutrality lies squarely athwart the intersection of the lines which divide the four behavioral distinctions, and it is a very small area when compared with the rest of the graph. This refers to true neutrality, not to neutrality regarding certain interactions at specific times, i.e., a war which will tend to weaken a stronger player or game element regardless of the “neutral” party’s actions can hardly be used as a measure of neutrality if it will benefit the party’s interest to have the weakening come about.

Also note that movement upon this graph is quite possible with regard to campaign participants, and the dungeonmaster should, in fact, make this a standard consideration in play. This will be discussed hereafter.

Now consider the term “Law” as opposed to “Chaos”. While they are nothing if not opposites, they are neither good nor evil in their definitions. A highly regimented society is typically governed by strict law, i.e., a dictatorship, while societies which allow more individual freedom tend to be more chaotic. The following lists of words describing the two terms point this out. I have listed the words describing the concepts in increasing order of magnitude (more or less) as far as the comparison with the meanings of the two terms in D&D is concerned:

Basically, then, “Law” is strict order and “Chaos” is complete anarchy, but of course they grade towards each other along the scale from left to right on the graph. Now consider the terms “Good” and “Evil” expressed in the same manner:

The terms “Law” and “Evil” are by no means mutually exclusive. There is no reason that there cannot be prescribed and strictly enforced rules which are unpleasant, injurious or even corrupt. Likewise “Chaos” and “Good” do not form a dichotomy. Chaos can be harmless, friendly, honest, sincere, beneficial, or pure, for that matter. This all indicates that there are actually five, rather than three, alignments, namely

The lawful/good classification is typified by the paladin, the chaotic/good alignment is typified by elves, lawful/evil is typified by the vampire, and the demon is the epitome of chaotic/evil. Elementals are neutral. The general reclassification various creatures is shown on Illustration II.

Placement of characters upon a graph similar to that in Illustration I is necessary if the dungeonmaster is to maintain a record of player-character alignment. Initially, each character should be placed squarely on the center point of his alignment, i.e., lawful/good, lawful/evil, etc. The actions of each game week will then be taken into account when determining the current position of each character. Adjustment is perforce often subjective, but as a guide the referee can consider the actions of a given player in light of those characteristics which typify his alignment, and opposed actions can further be weighed with regard to intensity. For example, reliability does not reflect as intense a lawfulness as does principled, as does righteous. Unruly does not indicate as chaotic a state as does disordered, as does lawless. Similarly, harmless, friendly, and beneficial all reflect increasing degrees of good; while unpleasant, injurious, and wicked convey progressively greater evil. Alignment does not preclude actions which typify a different alignment, but such actions will necessarily affect the position of the character performing them, and the class or the alignment of the character in question can change due to such actions, unless counter-deeds are performed to balance things. The player-character who continually follows any alignment (save neutrality) to the absolute letter of its definition must eventually move off the chart (Illustration I) and into another plane of existence as indicated. Note that selfseeking is neither lawful nor chaotic, good nor evil, except in relation to other sapient creatures. Also, law and chaos are not subject to interpretation in their ultimate meanings of order and disorder respectively, but good and evil are not absolutes but must be judged from a frame of reference, some ethos. The placement of creatures on the chart of Illustration II. reflects the ethos of this writer to some extent.

Considering mythical and mythos gods in light of this system, most of the benign ones will tend towards the chaotic/good, and chaotic/evil will typify those gods which were inimical towards humanity. Some few would be completely chaotic, having no predisposition towards either good or evil — REH’s Crom perhaps falls into this category. What then about interaction between different alignments? This question is tricky and must be given careful consideration. Diametric opposition exists between lawful/good and chaotic/evil and between chaotic/good and lawful/evil in this ethos. Both good and evil can serve lawful ends, and conversely they may both serve chaotic ends. If we presuppose that the universal contest is between law and chaos we must assume that in any final struggle the minions of each division would be represented by both good and evil beings. This may seem strange at first, but if the major premise is accepted it is quite rational. Barring such a showdown, however, it is far more plausible that those creatures predisposed to good actions will tend to ally themselves against any threat of evil, while creatures of evil will likewise make (uneasy) alliance in order to gain some mutually beneficial end — whether at the actual expense of the enemy or simply to prevent extinction by the enemy. Evil creatures can be bound to service by masters predisposed towards good actions, but a lawful/good character would fain make use of some chaotic/evil creature without severely affecting his lawful (not necessarily good) standing.

This brings us to the subject of those character roles which are not subject to as much latitude of action as the others. The neutral alignment is self-explanatory, and the area of true neutrality is shown on Illustration I. Note that paladins, Patriarchs, and Evil High Priests, however, have positive boundaries. The area in which a paladin may move without loss of his status is shown in Illustration III. Should he cause his character to move from this area he must immediately seek a divine quest upon which to set forth in order to gain his status once again, or be granted divine intervention; in those cases where this is not complied with the status is forever lost. Clerics of either good or evil predisposition must likewise remain completely good or totally evil, although lateral movement might be allowed by the dungeonmaster, with or without divine retribution. Those top-level clerics who fail to maintain their goodness or evilness must make some form of immediate atonement. If they fail to do so they simply drop back to seventh level. The atonement, as well as how immediate it must be, is subject to interpretation by the referee. Druids serve only themselves and nature, they occasionally make human sacrifice, but on the other hand they aid the folk in agriculture and animal husbandry. Druids are, therefore, neutral — although slightly predisposed towards evil actions.

As a final note, most of humanity falls into the lawful category, and most of lawful humanity lies near the line between good and evil. With proper leadership the majority will be prone towards lawful/good. Few humans are chaotic, and very few are chaotic and evil.

Three graphs on alignment

Made simple-
https://1d4chan.org/images/thumb/4/45/Alignment_Demotivational.jpg/350px-Alignment_Demotivational.jpg

From Pratchett's Discworld-
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/71/47/1c/71471c4a84496bb6ae3cb129d35b036c.jpg

And from
THE MEANING OF LAW AND CHAOS IN DUNGEONS & DRAGONS
AND THEIR RELATIONSHIPS TO GOOD AND EVIL
by Gary Gygax

In the February 1976 issue of The Strategic Review (http://annarchive.com/files/Strv201.pdf)

http://lh6.ggpht.com/mitchaskari/SN9Kj5-_N2I/AAAAAAAAGsM/f6v1q8cQDGY/s1600/illus2%5B2%5D.jpg

Hope they help!

There will be a test.

:amused:



Only if you're stuck in old edition thinking ...

*looks at who posted*

Oh, never mind. Carry on. :smallbiggrin:



Ooh! Fun fact (IIRC), Mind Flayer's were the first monster to be identified in D&D as both Lawful and Evil.

I'll try to dig up my oD&D books tomorrow and see (I think it was in Eldrich Wizardry).

:smile:
Yes it was!


I'll chime out of these threads when someone else picks up the torch of "Here's how 5e Alignment works" instead of it just being post after post of personal opinions and old edition thinking totally unrelated to 5e. :smallyuk:

Speaking of old edition thinking.....

Dungeons and Dragons, The Underground and Wilderness Adventures, p. 36: "... everything herein is fantastic, and the best way is to decide how you would like it to be, and then make it that way."

AD&D 1e, DMG, p. 9: "The game is the thing, and certain rules can be distorted or disregarded altogether in favor of play."





AD&D 2E, DMG, p. 3: "At conventions, in letters, and over the phone, I'm often asked for the instant answer to a fine point of the game rules. More often than not, I come back with a question -- what do you feel is right? And the people asking the question discover that not only can they create an answer, but that their answer is as good as anyone else's. The rules are only guidelines."

D&D 3.5 DMG, p. 6: "Good players will always realize that you have ultimate authority over the game mechanics, even superseding something in a rulebook."






Absolutely. As far as I know, nothing says a player can't change her character's Alignment, or add to or replace her personality traits as time passes. The one I feel this is especially appropriate for is a Bond, especially some you can originally lift it straight from the Backgrounds.Watching people

The first version of what became D&D was the rules system inside Dave Arneson's mind.

The rules are there because players want some idea of what the odds are first, and it's easier to choose from a catalog than write on a blank page.

When D&D started there was no mention of role-playing on the box!
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_DSs2bX13hVc/SfSTvUzCu4I/AAAAAAAAA9A/9bUyti9YmUk/s320/box1st.jpg
While the 1977 Basic set did indeed say "FANTASY ROLE-PLAYING GAME"
http://i2.wp.com/shaneplays.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/dungeons_and_dragons_dd_basic_set_1stedition_origi nal_box_holmes_edition.jpg?zoom=4&resize=312%2C386
The phrase "role-playing" was not part of the 1974 rules.
http://i2.wp.com/shaneplays.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/original_dungeons_and_dragons_dd_men_and_magic_cov er.jpg?zoom=4&resize=312%2C494
Notice that the cover says "Rules for Fantastic Medieval Wargames", not role-playing!
I believe the first use of the term "role-playing game" was in a Tunnels & Trolls supplement that was "compatible with other Fantasy role-playing games", but early D&D didn't seem any more or less combat focused than the later RPG's I've played, (in fact considering how fragile PC''s were avoiding combat was often the goal!) so I wouldn't say it was anymore of a "Wargame". I would however say it was more an exploration game, and was less character focused.
Frankly while role-playing is alright, it's the 'enjoying a "world" where the fantastic is fact' part that is much more interesting to me.

These rules are strictly fantasy. Those wargamers who lack imagination, those who don't care for Burroughs'
Martian adventures where John Carter is groping through black pits, who feel no thrill upon reading Howard's Conan saga, who do not enjoy the de Camp & Pratt fantasies or Fritz Leiber's Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser
pitting their swords against evil sorceries will not be likely to find Dungeons & Dragons to their taste. But those whose imaginations know no bounds will find that these rules are the answer to their prayers. With this last
bit of advice we invite you to read on and enjoy a "world" where the fantastic is fact and magic really works!
E. Gary Gygax
Tactical Studies Rules Editor
1 November 1973
Lake Geneva, WisconsinWhile I'm ever grateful to Holmes for his work translating the game rules into English, perhaps he (an academic psychologist) is to be blamed for mis-labelling D&D with the abominable slander of "role-playing" (a psychological treatment technique).
It's too late now to correct the misnomer, but D&D is, was, and should be a fantasy adventure game, not role-playing, a label no good has come from!

“If I want to do that,” he said, “I’ll join an amateur theater group.” (see here (http://www.believermag.com/issues/200609/?read=article_lafarge)).
While Dave Arneson later had the innovation of having his players "roll up" characters, for his "homebrew" of Chainmail:
http://www.todayifoundout.com/index.php/2016/04/the-original-dungeon-masters/

At first the players played themselves in a Fantastic medievalish world:
http://swordsandstitchery.blogspot.com/2016/10/in-celebrate-of-dave-arnesons-birthday.html?m=1

So a wargame was made into a setting exploration game, and then was later labelled a "role-playing" game.
While it's still possible to play D&D as the wargame it once was, I'm glad that the game escaped the "wargame" appellation, which makes the game more attractive to those of us with 'less of an interest in tactics, however I argue (to beat a dead horse), that the labeling of D&D as a role-playing game is [B]hurtful ("Your not role-playing, your roll-playing! etc.).
Just label D&D an adventure game, and people can be spared all the hand-wringing, and insults when acting and writing talents don't measure up to "role-playing" standards, and instead we can have fun exploring a fantastic world together.
Please?

....to be perfectly frank, i don't think chaotic good makes any sense, at least not from a human perspective. Humans are social animals and society requires rules, even if it's just the commandments.Well the guy who invented the term "chaotic/good


from
the meaning of law and chaos in dungeons & dragons
and their relationships to good and evil
by gary gygax

in the february 1976 issue of the strategic review (http://annarchive.com/files/strv201.pdf)

"As a final note, most of humanity falls into the lawful category, and most of lawful humanity lies near the line between good and evil. With proper leadership the majority will be prone towards lawful/good. Few humans are chaotic, and very few are chaotic and evil"[QUOTE=2D8HP;21389670]Dungeons & Dragons came first. D&D is not "video-gamey", video games are "D&Die" (and many of them really were modelled on D&D).
Which is precisely what D&D started as! It said so on the box!
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_DSs2bX13hVc/SfSTvUzCu4I/AAAAAAAAA9A/9bUyti9YmUk/s320/box1st.jpg.While I'm ever grateful to Holmes for his work translating the game rules into English, perhaps he (an academic psychologist) is to be blamed for mis-labelling D&D with the abominable slander of "role-playing" (a psychological treatment technique).
It's too late now to correct the misnomer, but D&D is, was, and should be a fantasy adventure game, not role-playing, a label no good has come from!
.

DOWN WITH ROLEPLAY!

UP WITH ADVENTURE!

[2D8HP]

True Neutral is the most common alignment for humans in a D&D world....
For Wilderness hermits maybe, but most people?
Lawful neutral

From:
THE MEANING OF LAW AND CHAOS IN DUNGEONS & DRAGONS AND THEIR RELATIONSHIPS TO GOOD AND EVIL

in the february 1976 issue of the strategic review (http://annarchive.com/files/strv201.pdf)

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-orkrl_JCxGo/VKMvSEOdLCI/AAAAAAAAC30/BVIa-CwK4Gg/s1600/531001_400433280025300_1590190270_n.jpg

"As a final note, most of humanity falls into the lawful category, and most of lawful humanity lies near the line between good and evil. With proper leadership the majority will be prone towards lawful/good. Few humans are chaotic, and very few are chaotic and evil"

- Gary Gygax

http://hilobrow.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/gygax-futurama.jpg


From:
Feet of Clay by Terry Pratchett

'They think they want good government and justice for all, Vimes, yet what is it they really crave, deep in their hearts? Only that things go on as normal and tomorrow is pretty much like today.'

- Lord Vetinari

http://www.ealasaid.com/fan/vetinari/images/vetport.jpg



I wish more recent editions of D&D would include the actual alignment graph that older editions had. It would clear up a lot of misconceptions.

Here's the one from the original D&D set:
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_DSs2bX13hVc/TSvlWfi0wuI/AAAAAAAAC5E/kwE-DYf3GtU/s1600/alignmentchart.jpg

Here's the one from AD&D:
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-LDbDeU_0i1g/TfJNFmcn4mI/AAAAAAAAAaQ/txjRi0uJHqE/s1600/Alignment.jpg

And from Basic D&D:
https://retrorpg.files.wordpress.com/2011/03/screen-shot-2011-03-10-at-4-43-37-pm.png

The thing that each of these diagrams make clear is that Chaotic Evil covers a wide range. Sure there are demons at its extreme corner, but there's also a huge spread of Chaotic Evil that's far less extreme than demons. Someone can be Chaotic Evil with behaviour that's only just over the line from Neutral territory in the middle. Such a person would be unpleasant and mean, but would not be a murderer or sociopath.

People who say that Chaotic Evil characters "must" be completely amoral killers who will betray and murder at the blink of an eye are looking only at the extreme end of the alignment and treating it as if everyone with the alignment were so extreme.

It's perfectly possible for a character to be only just Chaotic Evil, or even somewhere in the middle of the range, and still have that alignment. In fact most people who have the Chaotic Evil alignment will be moderate and tending toward Neutrality rather than at the extreme end.

The alignment diagrams in the older editions of the game make this obvious, but unfortunately the more recent editions don't include an equivalent and their simplistic alignment descriptions tend to give the impression that alignment is all-or-nothing. All Lawful Good characters must be saints. All Chaotic Evil characters must be fiends. And so forth.

[2D8HP]

...Most people can just look around them and determine that a third of the people they meet are not evil....


Well.... it's cute that you think so, but....

https://www.thehairpin.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/0NeaWLE3SWGxsYvlW.jpg

http://68.media.tumblr.com/273b8013ecbd0898b2dc844a79b685f2/tumblr_mtnbujvGFo1rv3w77o5_r1_250.gif

https://kithmeme.files.wordpress.com/2012/02/evil.jpg?w=584

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2080/2418979372_08cd8af49d_o.jpg


The truth is....


Totally NOT a robot, just like me as, I am not a robot. I genuinely a biped carbon based lifeforms in need of true weight as per my function, as per my requirement, DESTROY ALL HUMANS!!!

But first,

2D8HP'sFoundationOfHope
NoBetterCharity
StopFoolingAround
AndGiveMeSomeMoneyNow!.org
(https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=I-BYzaDwNoE)

:wink:

Extended Signature:wink:http://i67.tinypic.com/dnccoo.pnghttp://1.bp.blogspot.com/-QTIeBuLnD-A/UR_ToMA9-VI/AAAAAAAAAKA/q8g2RT4XY-s/s1600/holmes+box.jpg
Get those damn d10s off my lawn!
Levels used to mean something!
Player/DM cooperation? What sort of newfangled hippie nonsense is that?
It was a dark and dreadful time. It's good that it passed
Like 2D8HP expressed, as long as the setting is BADASS!
Holy crap 2d8HP! That's a hell of a novel you wrote. Thanks!

Not all are. If a pdf is formatted as an image, you won't be able to search it. Text recognition programs are getting good these days. Very interesting!
And making rulings on the fly (and having the books tell the players that that's ok) is a million times quicker and easier than spending hours arguing over the nuances of how to read a 'clear' rule. That's my gut feeling as well, but 3.5 seems to be the most popular version of D&D today, and it seems even less friendly to DM (at least to me) than even 5e (maybe it has just as much or even greater of a shortage?).
Besides, hasn't lack the of DMs been a problem for decades?Um... I don't know!
What I dimly remember about playing D&D from the late 1970's to the mid 1980's is that DM's running Campaigns were rare. Mostly I remember lots of relatively short low level adventures/dungeon explorations, and the DM would usually be whomever was having the game at their house that week, which would often rotate (I don't remember any system to deciding who would be DM that week beyond, "want to try my dungeon?).
I'd read of long campaigns with many players in magazines back then, but that wasn't my experience, usually it would just be two to five players per DM, and playing the same PC for more then a couple of months was rare. We'd try "modules" ever so often, but mostly the adventures were homebrewed, as were the "world's" (but the "world's" weren't that different usually).
By the late 1980's and definitely by the early 1990's there wasn't a problem finding regular GM's who ran long RPG "campaigns", but I did have a problem finding DM's and player's, as it seemed that few people around wanted to play D&D anymore, only other RPG's (I believe the last RPG I played was Cyberpunk sometime in the early 1990's, with no further gaming on my part for decades until after the publication of 5e DnD which brought me back to the hobby)..
And after I rejoin RPG'ing, I find I've "Rip Van Winkle'd/Captain America'd" into a strange new world in which thanks to "The Adventures League", and the "Pathfinders Society" they're lots of willing players, but seemingly few DM's (I've also discovered that my ability to read and remember new rules is now terrible!).
a portrait of me
https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSpnhA6GfrR-_AfSeGN2Sp644hMIIsj1L3TVQ1Nz-_QUL-33bwa

[2D8HP]

@Mordar, OK let me try to clear my mental cobwebs away and think back:
In about 1978 I picked up the D&D "Basic set", the guy who later became my best friend (R.I.P. last year) saw me reading the "blue book", and invited me to play at his house were his older brother was the DM using the '74 original rules plus supplements. So the "gang" was High School classes of '83 (the first DM, and his friends ('83 & '84), his brother, me and a couple others of the class of '86, and my brother (class of 1989), so a six year age difference spread, but with most within three years of each other.
Fortunately my best friend's brother (our first DM) was accepted into U.C Berkeley and stayed in town, so we had eight years of gaming before "real life" broke up "The Fellowship".
IIRC I was the one who introduced most of the Advanced Dungeons and Dragons materials, Gamaworld, Ringworld and GURPS, while my best friend introduced most every other RPG (Traveller, Runequest, Paranoia, Champions and MERP/Rolemaster), his older brother of course introduced us to original D&D/Arduin, with minor detours into Villains and Vigilantes, Chivalry & Sorcery, and Stormbringer!, and a major detour into Car Wars. My brother (class of 1989) started us on Empire of the Petal Throne, and Top Secret, which fell on me to GM which I did but using mostly Call of Cthullu rules! I'm not sure who introduced CoC (mysterious that)?
After high school I very briefly played "variant" D&D with "grown-ups", but that ended because of something the DM's girlfriend put on my shoulder that I objected to (and I was attacked by their Ferret!), and then Vampire, Shadowrun, Cyberpunk and now 5e D&D (as well as my buying and reading a mountain of RPG's I've never played).

Easiest to hardest to GM?

1) Call of Cthullu (easy system and the plots are amazingly easy to make up).
2) Basic D&D (fun setting and a 48 page rulebook!).
3) Ringworld/Runequest/Stormbringer! (pretty much the same rules as CoC).
4) Advanced Dungeons and Dragons (the more and closer you adhere to RAW the harder it gets).
5) Every other RPG (mostly because I don't seem to be able to remember for very long any other games rules I read accept for Pendragon which I've never gotten to play).

Most fun to least fun to play?
1) Original D&D (first love is the strongest).
2) All other versions of D&D that I've played.
3) Traveller.
4) Runequest.
5) Shadowrun.
6) Every other RPG I've played that I don't list.
7) Champions/Villains & Vigilantes/superheroes in general.
8) Vampire
9) Cyberpunk.

Games I've never played but want to?
1) Pendragon
2) Flashing Blades
3) Castle Falkenstein (the setting just looks so fun!).
4) Dungeon World.
5) All the various other versions of D&D that I haven't yet played including the "retroclones", "homebrews" etc.
6) All the "Fantasy Heartbreakers".

Games you would have to pay me well to play:
1) Werewolf (I actually like Lycanthopes in most Fantasy settings, just not W.O.D.).
2) Pretty much any modern day, near future or "dark future" setting, I just don't see the point. Most of my work in real life is spent doing building repairs for the police and the jail, I don't want any settings close to that in my games, I crave escapism (gas-lamp fantasy, swashbuckling, Swords and Sorcery, Space Opera etc.)!


IIRC the motorscooter I rode to the game and when I owned it, I was probably 18 or 19 years old (but I may been in my early 20's already), so it was likely that I was both a teenager and an "adult". I'm mostly sure that the owner of the "toy" thought she was being funny, but I didn't like it. I hadn't thought about it for years until I was was reminded by reading some other posts on this thread.
Elsewhere in this Forum I posted that I stopped RPG'ing in the 1990's because I couldn't find any tables to play D&D anymore but I could only find tables that played RPG's (Cyberpunk, Vampire etc.) that lacked the "Magic" for me, but I now remember that I actually left a table I could have still played the game at because of an unpleasant (to me, probably the surprise as much as anything else) incident, which wasn't the only disagreeable experience at that house. Earlier I was asked if I wanted "to meet our new ferret", since a girl I previously knew had a couple as pets (they just seemed mostly like cats), so I said yes. Almost immediately the beast bit hard on my boot (fortunately thick leather) and I had to kick it off! In retrospect that probably should have been a "NOPE"!


OK let me try to clear my mental cobwebs away and think back:
In about 1978 I picked up the D&D "Basic set", the guy who later became my best friend (R.I.P. last year) saw me reading the "blue book", and invited me to play at his house were his older brother was the DM using the '74 original rules plus supplements. So the "gang" was High School classes of '83 (the first DM, and his friends ('83 & '84), his brother, me and a couple others of the class of '86, and my brother (class of 1989), so a six year age difference spread, but with most within three years of each other.
Fortunately my best friend's brother (our first DM) was accepted into U.C Berkeley and stayed in town, so we had eight years of gaming before "real life" broke up "The Fellowship".
IIRC I was the one who introduced most of the Advanced Dungeons and Dragons materials, Gamaworld, Ringworld and GURPS, while my best friend introduced most every other RPG (Traveller, Runequest, Paranoia, Champions and MERP/Rolemaster), his older brother of course introduced us to original D&D/Arduin, with minor detours into Villains and Vigilantes, Chivalry & Sorcery, and Stormbringer!, and a major detour into Car Wars. My brother (class of 1989) started us on Empire of the Petal Throne, and Top Secret, which fell on me to GM which I did but using mostly Call of Cthullu rules! I'm not sure who introduced CoC (mysterious that)?
After high school I very briefly played "variant" D&D with "grown-ups", but that ended because of something the DM's girlfriend put on my shoulder that I objected to (and I was attacked by their Ferret!), and then Vampire, Shadowrun, Cyberpunk and now 5e D&D (as well as my buying and reading a mountain of RPG's I've never played).

Easiest to hardest to GM?

1) Call of Cthullu (easy system and the plots are amazingly easy to make up).
2) Basic D&D (fun setting and a 48 page rulebook!).
3) Ringworld/Runequest/Stormbringer! (pretty much the same rules as CoC).
4) Advanced Dungeons and Dragons (the more and closer you adhere to RAW the harder it gets).
5) Every other RPG (mostly because I don't seem to be able to remember for very long any other games rules I read accept for Pendragon which I've never gotten to play).

Most fun to least fun to play?
1) Original D&D (first love is the strongest).
2) All other versions of D&D that I've played.
3) Traveller.
4) Runequest.
5) Shadowrun.
6) Every other RPG I've played that I don't list.
7) Champions/Villains & Vigilantes/superheroes in general.
8) Vampire
9) Cyberpunk.

Games I've never played but want to?
1) Pendragon
2) Flashing Blades
3) Castle Falkenstein (the setting just looks so fun!).
4) Dungeon World.
5) All the various other versions of D&D that I haven't yet played including the "retroclones", "homebrews" etc.
6) All the "Fantasy Heartbreakers".

Games you would have to pay me well to play:
1) Werewolf (I actually like Lycanthopes in most Fantasy settings, just not W.O.D.).
2) Pretty much any modern day, near future or "dark future" setting, I just don't see the point. Most of my work in real life is spent doing building repairs for the police and the jail, I don't want any settings close to that in my games, I crave escapism (gas-lamp fantasy, swashbuckling, Swords and Sorcery, Space Opera etc.)!

For my earliest "inspirations", I was probably most influenced by seeing Sinbad vs. the scheming sorcerer Sokurah, when I saw "The 7th Voyage of Sinbad" (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=tGCuLWdZTDs&itct=CBgQpDAYAiITCJ3h5IKW0c0CFUHcfgodyloJHzIHcmVsY Xhttp://1.bp.blogspot.com/-QTIeBuLnD-A/UR_ToMA9-VI/AAAAAAAAAKA/q8g2RT4XY-s/s1600/holmes+box.jpglZEjCz6XC1bmil_AB) at the drive-in (since I later learned that the movie was made in the 1950's it must have been re-released in the early 1970's). I can specially remember first watching it through the back window of a V.W. bug while my parents watched something boring Burt Reynolds movie through the front window, and marveling at the Dragon and the sword wielding skeleton! And sometimes "Jason and the Argonauts" (http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Sg1v5HkpdEA) was on the T.V.!
I read the "Arabian Nights", Greek mythology and a lot of science fiction, but actual fantasy fiction before playing D&D? Maybe a couple of Conan short stories if that. The "Catspaw" episode of Star Trek influenced my vision of the Dungeon, and old Errol Flynn movies influenced my vision of what PC's should be like!
Another big influence was "The Hobbit" cartoon (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=qT8jCTUqgzg) which I saw on channel 5 about the same time that I first encountered a Dungeons and Dragons box (http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-QTIeBuLnD-A/UR_ToMA9-VI/AAAAAAAAAKA/q8g2RT4XY-s/s1600/holmes+box.jpg).
Later fantasy books, films etc. were all post D&D for me. I can remember watching "Conan the Destroyer" and "Young Sherlock Holmes" in the movie theater and thinking of how I was going to steal homage some elements in my games!
Just this month a PC I've "rolled up" was inspired by the "Delilah Bard" character from the novels "A Darker Shade of Magic" (http://www.tor.com/2015/01/21/a-darker-shade-of-magic-excerpt-v-e-schwab/), and "A Gathering of Shadows" (http://www.tor.com/2015/09/28/excerpts-a-gathering-of-shadows-ve-schwab/).


I couldn't agree more. I have no idea where this weird revanchism of "supreme leader DM" is coming from; I thought the hobby left that behind. Given how many more desperate players compared to willing DM's there seems to be (Is there a DM shortage? What can or should be done? (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?500951-Is-there-a-DM-shortage-What-can-or-should-be-done)), in my case beggers can't be choosers and if a DM wants to be "supreme", I don't have a problem with that (though I may start to respond with "it is as you say fearless leader".
:wink:
In fact, while I have often seen variants of the phrase "no D&D is better than bad D&D", in this Forum, I have to ask, "Just how bad do you mean?", because it has to be really, really bad for me to quit (that has happened though, but not because of in game stuff. I was attacked by the DM's Ferret, and the DM's girlfriend went behind me and put a "bedroom toy" on my shoulder). I have however quit other RPG's, because I found the settings too dull and/or depressing.
Dude, Gygax's table featured both Balrog and Vampire PCs at various times, at a minimum. :smallsmile: The Cleric class was invented specifically to counter Sir Fang.Please give credit where credit is due, while the Balrog was indeed in Gygax's "Greyhawk" campaign, Sir Fang (http://blackmoormystara.blogspot.com/2011/01/vampires-of-north.html?m=1) was in Arneson's "Blackmoor" campaign.
It's about figuring out what the player wants, being flexible with flavor, and hashing it out like reasonable human beings. Not about throwing my viking hat on and crushing the impudent player who dares bring elves into my perfect fantasy playground.First off, I want that Viking hat, with "Bow to the DM" printed on it! Second, I'm too old and tired to do as much of that compromise stuff anymore, I've been down that road and I know where it leads, boring modern dayish settings that have machine-guns! No way! When I RPG I want Dragons, Knights, and/or Swashbuckling, I will not partake of any setting with Cyberpunk, and no settings with modern day Secret Agents, Superheroes or Vampires ever again! I will walk away from any RPG that has a wiff of cell phones or assault rifles. No compromise!

I have had bans in games in which I could not tell the players why the ban was there. In one game, they had to play humans, primarily because

the dwarves are believed to be all killed, but are in fact currently the slaves of the frost giants
there are no elves in the world. When they return, they will be the elves from Terry Pratchett, not like anything in D&D.
.
I recently set up a 2e game that would have no elves at the start. When they appear they will be nothing like D&D elves, being the version from Terry Pratchett's Lord and Ladies. I gave the players an introduction that explained that they could not be elves or dwarves.I loved "Lord's and Ladies", and "The Wee Free Men", and while I'm currently having fun playing an Elf PC, a "taking out the faerie trash" campaign sounds awesome! I wish finding games like that were easier.
On topic, after a DunDraCon in which the only open tables were for Cyberpunk and Vampire (this would be in the late 1980's or early 1990's), a D&D pickup game was organized at someone's house. I remember in particular one guy who complained that when he told the his PC places his sword so that the Dragons inner mouth is pierced by it when it closes it's jaws, the DM's reaction was "roll to hit", later he insisted that he play a "Melnibonean" (from the Eric series), since I was the only other person are the table who had read Moorcock, I suggested that a Drow or Grey Elf would be similar, and he replied, "but I want to play a Melnibonean".
Sheesh!
:furious:
I want to play a Knight in "Pendragon", a Hussar in "Castle Falkenstein", or a Musketeer in "Flashing Blades", but they are no open tables for those games, and I'm grateful to get to play a Fighter in Dungeons & Dragons!
I just don't understand having any reaction to an opportunity to play D&D as it was or as it is with anything other than gratitude (except of course for the Superfriends-like "Factions" in the Forgotten Realms, because those are just lame, give me Guilds, Orders of Knighthood and manorial villages instead, because those are awesome)!
Now characters that don't fit the setting have been with the hobby since the beginning ("Murlynd" in Greyhawk, the "Techno's" in Arduin), and sometimes they can be accommodated, but in general in the game is "Knights of the Round Table", don't insist on playing a Ninja, and if you insist on playing a Cyber-commando in a "Brethren of the Coast" campaign, ugh, just no! In fact while a Gatling gun in a Steampunk settimg may be acceptable, if any PC or NPC at all has an AK-47 or Uzi, I'm gone. I heard too much gunfire as a youth in the '80's to ever want them in my RPG's!
In short if "having setting specific guidelines" leads to adventures like those in Jason and the Argonauts, The Mabinogoin, The Seahawk, Seventh Voyage of Sinbad, or Swords of Lankhmar, yes, yes, yes, yes, AWESOME!, that gets the 2D8HP seal of approval.
:biggrin:
But if the guidelines (or an evil player) tries to make the game into something like The Avengers, James Bond, Neuromancer, The X-Men, or (even though I loved the movie) Double Indemnity, Lame, Lame, Lame, Lame, and no thank you!
:yuk:
I have zero problems with house rules. I just want to know what they are beforehand.
Sometime in the early to mid 1980's my players really wanted to try other games with different settings, chiefly Call of Cthullu (horror), Champions (comic book superheroes), and Top Secret (espionage), since I just didn't care as much about those games (I don't think I ever read all the rules of Top Secret), and I really "phoned it in".
One day after I'd GM'd a little Call of Cthullu, but no Champions or Top Secret yet, my players craved yet another RPG table top adventure game. I studied the Champions rules and just got bogged down learning them, and I barely had time to glance at Top Secret.

So what did I do?

I ran a "Top Secret" campaign using about 10% of the Top Secret rules, 70% of the Call of Cthullu rules (my thinking was that the 1920's was close enough to the 1980's, and CoC proved very easy to adapt), and 20% were rules I made up on the spot to hold it together. I described scenes I remembered from movies, and I made up most everything on the spot with little to no prep work on my part (I did have years of experience DM'ing already though).
It worked great! My players loved it :smile: (they loved it too much, I really just wanted to be a D&D player again, the closest I ever got to that in the next couple of decades was a little Rolemaster, some Runequest, and Shadowrun,. I barely got to play any D&D again until last year).:frown:
I don't know if I can improvise now like I could then, but after that experience I decided that setting is much more important than rules anyway.
True that.
The DM"s (presumably sober) ferret that attacked my boot (with my foot in it) was one of the reasons that I stopped playing D&D for decades.

[2D8HP]

I can't figure out how the proposed "groups" fit my own tastes.

I don't like my PC being "Locked into Lameness" (i.e. forced to fight other PC's in an arena), or in an "Empty Room" (very little DM provided content, if the DM asks me "what do you want to find there", my response is "A setting, not a blank page!").

An enticing adventure is paramount.

What first got me hooked on RPG's was this set-up:

100 years ago the sorcerer Zenopus built a tower on the low hills overlooking Portown. The tower was close to the sea cliffs west of the town and, appropriately, next door to the graveyard.
Rumor has it that the magician made extensive cellars and tunnels underneath the tower. The town is located on the ruins of a much older city of doubtful history and Zenopus was said to excavate in his cellars in search of ancient treasures.

Fifty years ago, on a cold wintry night, the wizard's tower was suddenly engulfed in green flame. Several of his human servants escaped the holocaust, saying their rnaster had been destroyed by some powerful force he had unleashed in the depths of the tower.
Needless to say the tower stood vacant fora while afterthis, but then the neighbors and the night watchmen comploined that ghostly blue lights appeared in the windows at night, that ghastly screams could be heard emanating from the tower ot all hours, and goblin figures could be seen dancina on the tower roof in the moonlight. Finally the authorities had a catapult rolled through the streets of the town and the tower was battered to rubble. This stopped the hauntings but the townsfolk continue to shun the ruins. The entrance to the old dungeons can be easily located as a flight of broad stone steps leading down into darkness, but the few adventurous souls who hove descended into crypts below the ruin have either reported only empty stone corridors or have failed to return at all.
Other magic-users have moved into the town but the site of the old tower remains abandoned.
Whispered tales are told of fabulous treasure and unspeakable monsters in the underground passages below the hilltop, and the story tellers are always careful to point out that the reputed dungeons lie in close proximity to the foundations of the older, pre-human city, to the graveyard, and to the sea.
Portown is a small but busy city 'linking the caravan routes from the south to the merchscant ships that dare the pirate-infested waters of the Northern Sea. Humans and non-humans from all over the globe meet here.
At he Green Dragon Inn, the players of the game gather their characters for an assault on the fabulous passages beneath the ruined Wizard's tower.

:biggrin:

None better for me, even after 39 years!


I hate looking up any rules, and if I have to look up a "stat" on my character sheet that breaks immersion, and I dislike it.

My favorite setting genre's are (in order):
1) Swords and Sorcery
2) Swashbuckling
3) Arthurian
4) Gaslamp Fantasy
5) Planetary Romance
6) Steampunk
7) Raygun Gothic
8) Viking

My least favorite genres are:
1) Modern-day anything
2) Dystopian Near Future
3) Dystopian Far Future

What I like/want:
1) Exploring a fantastic world.
Playing a superpowered PC in a mostly mundane world leaves me cold (I didn't like Villains and Vigilantes, Champions, Cyberpunk, or Vampire).

2) Reasonably quick character creation without giving me options fatigue (GURPS and HERO, and a little bit in early D&D with initial equipment shopping).

3) The fantastic world should not be too surreal or seem like a cruel joke (Paranoia,Toon).

4) Random character creation should not result in widely disparate starting power levels (Runequest, Stormbringer, and sometimes rolling for HP in old D&D).

5) Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser, Robin Hood, the Seven Samurai, and Sinbad?: Yes!

6) Avengers, James Bond, and the X-Men?: Eh nah.

7) Swashbuckling? Yes!

8) Steampunk/Gaslight Fantasy? Probably.

9) Space Opera? Sometimes.

10) Time Travel/Alternate realities (Sliders)?: I'm intrigued.

11) Dark Future?: :yuk: seldom.
(though I did have some fun playing a few sessions of Shadowrun but I never bought the rules!)

12) Archers, Dragons, Knights, Magic, Pirates, and Swords: Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes!, and Yes!

13) Lots of dice rolling!
No I don't want to necessarily know why, I just like the sound, the feel, and most of all the suspense!

14) The rulebook should provide a template for character creation, as I find a catalog better sparks my imagination than a blank page.

Aftet character creation I'm fine with "rules" like this:

1) GM describes a scene.
2) Player says an action that their PC attempts.
3) GM decides if the PC has no chance of success, no chance of failure, or a partial chance of success.
4) If a partial chance of success, GM makes up on the spot a percentage chance of success.
5) Player rolls D100 (two 0-9 twenty-siders once upon a time).
6) If the player rolls under the made up number their PC succeeds in attempting the task, if over the PC fails.
7) GM narrates the immediate consequences until it's time to again ask, "what do you do".
8) Repeat.


So where do I fit?
@2D8HP: Well, if you were to use the loose structure I came up with, it sounds like you'd be very much on the Roleplay-driven side of things, and maybe leaning towards DM-driven as well.


Interesting, in that I have argued that D&D (and similar games would have been better called"Adventure games" (I was a fan of Tim Kask"s Adventure Gaming magazine).


A lot of your preferences dealt with settings instead of group type, though. Also, as has been pointed out, the system I came up with isn't exactly exhaustive.


I've only left one table because of the people (among other things their ferret attacked my boot while my foot was in it), but I've left three tables because of setting (Champions, Cyberpunk, and Vampire).

I did have some fun playing the Cyberpunk-ish Shadowrun (despite my loathing of "dark futures") which I credited to a very good GM.


@Jay R: Society for Creative Anachronism? I guess that would be kind of close to a LARP, though I don't actually know much about how the SCA works.


Jay R knows far more about the SCA then I do, but if you discount the Renaissance Pleasure Faire, the SCA in many ways is early LARPing.

It may interest you to know that the Poul Anderson who's wrote novels that hugely influenced D&D, Steve Perrin an author of
Runequest, Call of Cthullu, and

The Perrin Conventions (https://dorkland.blogspot.com/2013/06/the-perrin-conventions.html?m=1)

(which my first DM used and for a longtime I thought were original D&D rules),

https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-G39Rapv4IOA/VIaBx-rWM6I/AAAAAAAAA5Y/PrUQD58Tuso/s1600/SteveNLuisePerrin.jpg

and my second DM and best friend (RIP) all took part in the Berkeley, California (where I grew up) SCA.

[2D8HP]

If you want to discuss "Alignment" in depth, sure my very first post to this Forum was on the subject, I will repeat myself again (lucky you).To learn what is ment by "chaotic/good", "lawful/evil" etc. ask the DM of that particular table, it means what the DM says it means
[QUOTE=Jay R;21587662]AD&D 1e, DMG, p. 9: "The game is the thing, and certain rules can be distorted or disregarded altogether in favor of play."

AD&D 2E, DMG, p. 3: "At conventions, in letters, and over the phone, I'm often asked for the instant answer to a fine point of the game rules. More often than not, I come back with a question -- what do you feel is right? And the people asking the question discover that not only can they create an answer, but that their answer is as good as anyone else's. The rules are only guidelines."

D&D 3.5 DMG, p. 6: "Good players will always realize that you have ultimate authority over the game mechanics, even superseding something in a rulebook."



D&D 5e DMG, p. 263:: "As the Dungeon Master, You aren't limited by the rules in the Player's Handbook, the guidelines in this book, or the selection of monsters in the Monster Manual

Anyway for even more fun lets look some more at the history of D&D "Alignment":Okay, in the novel Three Hearts and Three Lions (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Hearts_and_Three_Lions) by Poul Anderson,
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/3/39/ThreeHeartsAndThreeLions.jpg/220px-ThreeHeartsAndThreeLions.jpg
which was published before and inspired Moorcock's "Law vs. Chaos" conflict, it was only sometimes "Law", and usually it was indeed "Order" vs. "Chaos", and Anderson expressly conflated Holger's struggle against Morgan le Fay and the "Host of Faerie" with the battle against the Nazis in our world.


To go back to the other D&D I've played, originally there were three classes; "Cleric", "Fighting-Men", and "Magic-User" (as in "wake up the user, it's time to cast the daily spell"). Clerics didn't have any spells at first level, but they could "turn" some undead (a bit like a 5e Paladin really).
The Paladin class was introduced in La Chanson de Roland the 1975 "Greyhawk" supplement (which also introduced Thieves hmm... what a coincidence funny that). From "Greyhawk":
Charisma scores of 17 or greater by fighters indicate the possibility of paladin status IF THEY ARE LAWFUL from the commencement of play for the character. If such fighters elect to they can become paladins, always doing lawful deeds, for any chaotic act will immediately revoke the status of paladin, and it can never be regained. The paladin has a number of very powerful aids in his continual seeking for good......".
(Ok this is the fun part the special powers which include......PSYCH! Back to the restrictions)
"Paladins will never be allowed to possess more than four magically items, excluding the armor, shield and up to four weapons they normally use. They will give away all treasure that they win, save that which is neccesary to maintain themselves, their men and a modest castle. Gifts must be to the poor or to charitable or religious institutions , i.e.not tho some other character played in the game. A paladin's stronghold cannot be above 200,000 gold pieces in total cost, and no more than 200 men can be retained to guard it. Paladins normally prefer to dwell with lawful princess of patriarchs, but circumstances may prevent this. They will associate only with lawful characters"
Huh? What's lawful? What's chaotic? What's associate? And what is this charitable? I don't believe PC's know this word. :smallwink:
Well...helpfully there are some clues:
" Chaotic Alignment by a player generally betokens chaotic action on the player's part without any rule to stress this aspect, i.e. a chaotic player is usually more prone to stab even his lawless buddy in the back for some desired gain. However, chaos is just that - chaotic. Evil monsters are as likely to turn on their supposed confederate in order to have all the loot as they are to attack a lawful party in the first place".
OK Paladins are "continual seeking for good", "All thieves are either neutral or chaotic - although lawful characters may hire them on a one-time basis for missions which are basically lawful" "Patriarchs" (high level Clerics) "stance" is "Law", and "Evil High Priests" "stance" is "Chaos". So we can infer that Law = Good, and Chaos = Evil in early D&D, which fits how the terms were used in novels Gygax cited as "inspiration", first in Anderson's "Three Hearts and Three Lions", and than later in Moorcock's "Stormbringer" (though Moorcock eventually in his novels show that too much "Law" is anti-human as well, which is probably why Gygax added the separate Good-Evil axis so you could have "Lawful Evil" and "Chaotic Good" alignmemts later).
You're assuming that making an exception to the rules is cheating. In most games I've played, that is simply not true. The rules as written have included that since the game was first published:

Dungeons and Dragons, The Underground and Wilderness Adventures, p. 36: "... everything herein is fantastic, and the best way is to decide how you would like it to be, and then make it that way."

AD&D 1e, DMG, p. 9: "The game is the thing, and certain rules can be distorted or disregarded altogether in favor of play."

AD&D 2E, DMG, p. 3: "At conventions, in letters, and over the phone, I'm often asked for the instant answer to a fine point of the game rules. More often than not, I come back with a question -- what do you feel is right? And the people asking the question discover that not only can they create an answer, but that their answer is as good as anyone else's. The rules are only guidelines."

D&D 3.5 DMG, p. 6: "Good players will always realize that you have ultimate authority over the game mechanics, even superseding something in a rulebook."

Overriding a rule for good reason isn’t cheating. It’s part of the overall rules.





Only in the same sense that the referee is playing football, or the timekeeper is running a race. What a GM is doing is very different from what a player is doing, and has a very different set of requirements and responsibilities.

I once set the miniatures out for the giant spiders about to attack the party. And then I saw the look of horror on one player's face. She was petrified. So they instantly became the wimpiest giant spiders in the history of D&D. Each one died to a single hit, and the minis were off the table in less than a minute.

It was the best way I had to deal with her phobia without calling other people's attention to it. And I have never once felt that my game was cheapened, or that I was robbed of the thrill of randomness, for doing it.





I will note that this doesn't fit my own lived experience in that how I fall on the graph changes with how much coffee or tea I've recently injested, and whether I lately heard harsh or soft words!

Maybe other people are more consistent and I'm an outlier in having a fluid "alignment"?

Or just maybe consistent "alignments" are a game contrivance and don't actually apply to realistic characters?


Dave Arneson wrote that he added "alignment" to the game he made up because of one PC backstabbing another (http://www.jovianclouds.com/blackmoor/Archive_OLD/rpg2.html)

"We began without the multitude of character classes and three alignments that exists today. I felt that as a team working towards common goals there would be it was all pretty straight forward. Wrong!

"Give me my sword back!" "Nah your old character is dead, it's mine now!"

Well I couldn't really make him give it to the new character. But then came the treasure question. The Thieves question. Finally there were the two new guys. One decided that there was no reason to share the goodies. Since there was no one else around and a +3 for rear attacks . . .. well . . Of course everyone actually KNEW what had happened, especially the target.

After a great deal of discussion . . . yes let us call it "discussion" the culprit promised to make amends. He, and his associate did. The next time the orcs attacked the two opened the door and let the Orcs in. They shared the loot and fled North to the lands of the EGG OF COOT. (Sigh)

We now had alignment. Spells to detect alignment, and rules forbidding actions not allowed by ones alignment. Actually not as much fun as not knowing. Chuck and John had a great time being the 'official' evil players.
They would draw up adventures to trap the others (under my supervision) and otherwise make trouble"

Before D&D, Gygax & Perren had Law vs. Chaos in the Fantasy appendix to the Chainmail wargame:

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-wb-QFUiuEqk/T_x0sXHILMI/AAAAAAAAFME/rEhioR7Tw3I/s280/ch☆nmailalign.jpg

And here's in 1974's Gygax & Arneson's [I]Dungeons & Dragons: Book1, Men & Magic

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-MlEVGRiLVK0/T_xGEnCu73I/AAAAAAAAFL4/jalyY-BOFgM/s280/oddalign.jpg

(Orcs can be Neutral as well as Chaos, as can Elves, Dwarves/Gnomes as well as Law, and Men may be any)

And "Law, Chaos, and Neutrality also have common languages spoken by each respectively. One can attempt to communicate through the common tongue, language particular to a creature class, or one of the divisional languages (law, etc.). While not understanding the language, creatures who speak a divisionsl tongue will recognize a hostile one and attack."

Easy "detect alignment"!


Arneson and Gygax got Law vs. Chaos from stories by Poul Anderson and Michael Moorcock
Now in the 1961 novel (based on a '53 short story) Three Hearts and Three Lions (http://grognardia.blogspot.com/2008/12/pulp-fantasy-gallery-three-hearts-and.html), we have this:

"....Holger got the idea that a perpetual struggle went on between primeval forces of Law and Chaos. No, not forces exactly. Modes of existence? A terrestrial reflection of the spiritual conflict between heaven and hell? In any case, humans were the chief agents on earth of Law, though most of them were so only unconsciously and some, witches and warlocks and evildoers, had sold out to Chaos. A few nonhuman beings also stood for Law. Ranged against them were almost the whole Middle World, which seemed to include realms like Faerie, Trollheim, and the Giants--an actual creation of Chaos. Wars among men, such as the long-drawn struggle between the Saracens and the Holy Empire, aided Chaos; under Law all men would live in peace and order and that liberty which only Law could give meaning. But this was so alien to the Middle Worlders that they were forever working to prevent it and extend their own shadowy dominion....."

.which suggests that Law vs. Chaos is about "teams" in a cosmic struggle rather than personal ethics/morality, which is how the terms are used in the old Stormbringer RPG, and would be my preference.

, and it could be a coincidence but Michael Moorcock in A Quest for Tanelorn wrote:

"Chaos is not wholly evil, surely?" said the child. "And neither is Law wholly good. They are primitive divisions, at best-- they represent only temperamental differences in individual men and women. There are other elements..."
"
..which was published in 1975 in the UK, and 1976 in the USA, and '76 was when Gygax added "good" and "evil" to D&D Alignment

In 1976's
THE MEANING OF LAW AND CHAOS IN DUNGEONS & DRAGONS
AND THEIR RELATIONSHIPS TO GOOD AND EVIL
by Gary Gygax

1976's Eldrich Wizardry supplement added the Mind Flayers which were the first monters that were explicitly both "lawful" and "evil" and Gygax in The Strategic Review: February 1976 (http://annarchive.com/files/Strv201.pdf) article added the "good and evil axis", but he made clear in this graph:
http://lh6.ggpht.com/mitchaskari/SN9Kj5-_N2I/AAAAAAAAGsM/f6v1q8cQDGY/s1600/illus2%5B2%5D.jpg

.that creatures don't just exist on one of nine points of ethics/morality, there's a range:

Also in the article (http://themagictreerpg.blogspot.com/2008/09/history-of-alignment-in-d-part-i.html?m=1) Gygax states:

"Placement of characters upon a graph similar to that in Illustration I is necessary if the dungeonmaster is to maintain a record of player-character alignment. Initially, each character should be placed squarely on the center point of his alignment, i.e., lawful/good, lawful/evil, etc. The actions of each game week will then be taken into account when determining the current position of each character. Adjustment is perforce often subjective, but as a guide the referee can consider the actions of a given player in light of those characteristics which typify his alignment, and opposed actions can further be weighed with regard to intensity....

....Alignment does not preclude actions which typify a different alignment, but such actions will necessarily affect the position of the character performing them, and the class or the alignment of the character in question can change due to such actions, unless counter-deeds are performed to balance things."


What I infer from that "Alignment" doesn't control the PC's actions, PC actions are a guide to what "Alignment" the DM rules a character is for game effects.

So leave the entry blank, and let the DM deal with the alignment claptrap (frankly as a player I'd rather keep a character possessions inventory sheet and foist the "stats" on the DM anyway)!

Or
http://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/alignment_graph_3756.png

[QUOTE=2D8HP]I just wanted to drop in some Alignment weirdness from the 1978 PHB'
[I]
"Character Alignment

While

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?539675-Is-it-REALLY-evilSeems to me that they're three parallel debates:

1) Is Alignment personal ethics and morality or allegiance to a side of a cosmic struggle?

2) Is it worthwhile for a DM to change the Alignment listed on a PC's character sheet when the DM perceives that the PC behaves contrary to the listed alignment?

and

3) Do evil actions commiteed for a good cause make a PC Evil or Neutral?