Optimized gestalt druid/swordsage

[KQMOLLE]

Hi, I need help with a gestalt build: druid/swordsage
Im using the druid shape shifting variant: Shapeshifter (PHB2, p 39): Lose animal companion and wildshape. Gain the ability to change into several forms, with set bonuses, at will.
My idea is this:
Lvl 1 - DRUID / RANGER - feat
Lvl 2 - DRUID / SWORDSAGE
Lvl 3 - DRUID / SWORDSAGE - feat
Lvl 4 - DRUID / SWORDSAGE
Lvl 5 - DRUID / SWORDSAGE
Lvl 6 - DRUID / NATURE'S WARRIOR - feat
Lvl 7 - DRUID / SWORDSAGE
ETC.

NATURE'S WARRIOR: Ill get "Claws of the Grizzly"
SWORDSAGE: Mainly focus on: Tiger Claw, Stone Dragon, Shadow Hand, Setting Sun, Diamond Mind
RANGER lvl 1 is only to ensure full BAB (+ I get track = it's a mainly wilderness adventure setting and I qualify for nature's warrior)

Any suggestions for feat or alternative ideas?
Race? (We play forgotten realms. Im thinking human or strong heart halfling)
We can start with a minor magic item at DMs discretion, any ideas (as cheap as possible with a cool effect. Otherwise it won't be allowed)

Thanks in advance

[Jack_Simth]

Of note: Generally, it's assumed and/or recommended that you use Fractional BAB with Gestalt - that is, you don't get full BAB by going Fighter-1/Wizard-19//Sorcerer-20.

Shifter specifically trades out Wild Shape. Nature's Warrior specifically requires Wild Shape - and leans on it for various class abilities. This may be a problem unless your DM handwaives that.

In terms of optimization:
In general, Wildshape + Animal Companion > Shifter forms. By a lot. Keep in mind, though, that this may not be a bad thing. Too much optimization for your table is just as bad as too little optimization for your table. Note that this is "for your table". One table might be fine with Uberchargers and Batman Wizards. Another might be fine with a party of core monks. Know your table!

Questions like this come up often...

Oh yes, and there is, of course, the general gestalt advice:

1) Avoid MAD, look for SAD. Sure, that Paladin//Wizard looks great on paper... but to play him as a Paladin and a Wizard, you need Str (melee), Dex (AC, as you can't use armor), Con (HP), Int (Spells), Wis (Spells again), and Cha (Various Paladin class features). The Paladin//Oracle, on the other hand, is no more MAD than a normal Paladin (Str for melee, Con for HP, charisma for spells and Paladin class features, maybe a touch of Wis for Paladin spells - no need for Dex, as you've got heavy armor proficiency).

2) Watch the Action Economy, look for passive/active combinations. Sure, that Sorcerer//Oracle looks good on paper (ALL THE SPELLS ALL THE TIME), but it doesn't work out that way generally - both classes are competing for the same set of actions, so you're not really significantly better than a normal Oracle or a normal Sorcerer. Something like a Rogue//Druid, on the other hand, is passively adding sneak attack dice to the multiple natural attacks + Pounce that the Druid gets through Wildshape; as a combat druid, it's all using the same set of actions at once. An Oracle//Paladin gets a lot of nice passive benefits from the Paladin side (Divine grace, swift-action self healing, heavy armor proficiency, full BAB, d10 HD), and can do some very active stuff with the Oracle side (spells and/or long-term buffs to wade into melee).

3) Avoid class features that interfere with each other. Sure, that Sorcerer//Paladin looks pretty good... but it's hard to cast Arcane spells in heavy armor, so you need to either give up much of the Sorcerer casting, or you need to give up much of the cheap AC that comes from heavy armor that the Paladin side lets you use. If you use a Divine caster instead of an Arcane one, however, there's no problems casting in armor.

4) Make sure to end up with a nice chassis. Yes, that Wizard//Sorcerer ends up with ultimate arcane might... but it's a d6 hit die, one good save, and poor BAB. You want at least two good saves (and can usually get three), a d8 hit die (although d10 is better), and at least medium BAB. That Druid//Rogue gets a d8 HD, all good saves, and medium BAB. That Paladin//Oracle gets d10 HD, two good saves, and full BAB.

5) The game still rewards specialization. Unless you're short party members, don't try to be a Jack of all trades, as you're likely to end up a master of none. You've only got one set of feats, one allocation of wealth, and so on. A Paladin//oracle and an Oracle//paladin look very similar if that's all you know about them, but they're actually quite different. The first uses Oracle buffs to supplement the Paladin abilities and wade into melee, and picks up feats and items primarily related to melee (so Power Attack, cleave, a nice sword, good armor, and so on). The second uses Paladin benefits to be able to slack off on a few things the Oracle would otherwise need while the Oracle zaps away with spells (so metamagic, extra revelation, Charisma boosters, metamagic rods, and so on). They play quite differently. If you try to be a full Oracle//Paladin, however, your feats and wealth are going to be stretched quite thin, and you'll be less useful at either role.

Edit: Oh yes, and you may have problems obeying all of these completely. That's actually OK. You'll usually end up not using at least some class features - for instance, that Oracle//paladin isn't going to be getting much use out of that full BAB, due to how easy it is to land (ranged) touch spells. It's still a strong combination. All else being equal, the more of these you can follow, and the better you can follow them, the stronger overall the character. However: Character power does not trump player or DM fun. It's hard to stress that enough. You're playing a game with no real stakes. The only true definition of winning is "Did everyone have consequence-free fun?" If the answer is yes, then you won. If the answer is no, then you lost. In the end, your character doesn't really matter: You do, and your friends do. If everyone has fun playing a party of bards that get TPK'd every other session? That's a win. If everyone has fun playing a party of optimized characters that roll over CR+10 encounters? That's a win too. If someone at the table is perpetually bored with the uber-characters, that's a loss. If something in-game breaks a real-life friendship, that's a loss too. Know your actual priorities.


SAD: Swordsage and Druid are both Wis-based. Good score here. If you go with full Wildshape, then you'll need little more than Wisdom and Con; a little Int can help as the Swordsage gets some nice class skills. With Shifter, you'll also need a bit of Strength and/or dex as well.

Action Economy: You can use Swordsage for (mostly) passive defenses while you wreck face with spells (so counters from Swordsage to protect you [Diamond Mind counters especially, but also stances and the Swordsage AC bonus], spells from Druid to kill your enemies) or use the Druid side to buff up and kill things with manuevers (Quicken Spell + buffs, long-duration buffs, wild shape, et cetera). You can do well with either focus.

Interference from class features: You've got a mild conflict between the Swordsage light armor and the Druid's "no metal armor" bit, but all in all, not so bad.

Chassis: d8 HD, all good saves, 6 skill points per level, probably medium BAB, and a nice skill list. Not too bad.

Specialization: This one depends on your approach. You can be a spellcaster with high native defenses, or you can be a melee specialist with magical buffs. Still, easy to specialize here.

[Nifft]

Don't bother with the level of Ranger. The BAB trickery won't work if your DM is paying attention, and spending two class levels for +3 damage is not a good trade -- even if it was legal, which it's not (as already mentioned by Jack_Simth).

If you're starting at level 5 or higher, you'd do a lot better to keep regular Wild Shape. However, if you want to go Shapeshift, then you'll still have a great character -- it just won't be as broken as the default Druid would have been. Either way is totally playable and you'll have powerful options.

You'd also do a lot better by getting Swordsage 4 faster, to get Insightful Strike (Tiger Claw). That allows you to add your Wisdom bonus to damage with Tiger Claw strikes. That ought to start higher than +3 and increase as you level, without delaying any Swordsage goodies.

If you want Track, get a Riding Dog animal companion at level 1. It also gets Scent and an extra +4 to Survival when using Scent, so it's a better tracker than you would be (under most conditions).

If you do start at a level which can make use of Wild Shape, and you have a decent number of natural attacks (due to being a panther or tiger), then look into Desert Wind boosts like Burning Blade & Searing Blade, and strikes that incorporate a Charge action like Searing Charge.

If you're using Tiger Claw (which you should), let your DM know that the 1st level TC maneuvers are buggy: some of the 1st level Maneuvers have prerequisites higher than the 2nd level maneuvers (which don't have prerequisites). The usual fix is to remove the prerequisites from the 1st level Tiger Claw maneuvers which have them.

[Gruftzwerg]

Try to mix Sacred Fist in.

In has 8/10 divine spellprogression. Progresses monk/swordsage unarmed strike damage and fast movement(! nice for shape shifting). An untyped AC bonus of up to +3 (@ lvl10). Blindesense 10ft. (@6) is a nice goody too.

Don't forget to take Beast Strike (feat) to add claw damage to your unarmed strike. Now you can flurry with Beast Strike in shape shift forms (= more attacks with high BAB compared to regular claw attacks).

Sacred Flames (1/day @4, 2/day @8, duration 1minute)
SF lvl + Wis mod added to your unarmed strike.
half is fire dmg, other half is sacred dmg

Inner Armor (1/day @10, duration = Wis mod/rounds)
+4 sacred bonus to AC, Saves and SR 25

Imho the Sacred Fist has some nice goodies to offer for your build, so maybe you should consider it.

At last i would recommend a Necklace of Natural Attacks with the Sizing effect (and maybe Valorous for double charge damge).
Sizing will work for you similar as power attack does for others. you trade -2 to hit steps for the next size steps of your weapon (Beast Strike = unarmed strike + claw). Since unarmed strikes count always as light weapon, you can wild em despite their (colossal ?^^) size.
Chouji - Baika no Jutsu (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H6kbdlm0bPo)

[KQMOLLE]

Hi again
Thank you for your reply all of you.
I like the comment about specialization: You can be a spellcaster with high native defenses, or you can be a melee specialist with magical buffs. I think I will primarily be melee with buffs. We are only to players, and the DM wants a military-like campaign, that sounds really cool. But with only two PCs I will find it easy to get out of harms way in melee. Im also the only healing resource. The other player builds af Wilderness Rogue/Paladin going for Dread Commando for prestige class.
Im still going for the Shapeshifter alternate druid class feature
DM has banned Book of Nine Swords, but will allow full BAB with this build (start lvl 3):

Lvl 1 - DRUID / RANGER - feat: Aspect of the Beast: Night Senses for darkvision
Lvl 2 - DRUID / RANGER - Rgr: Fangshield Fighting style: Imp. Natural Attack
Lvl 3 - DRUID / FIGHTER - feat: Weaponb Focus. Bite / Ftr Bonus Feat: Improved Initiative
Lvl 4 - DRUID / FIGHTER - Ftr Bonus Feat: Power Attack
Lvl 5 - DRUID / RANGER
Lvl 6 - DRUID / NATURE'S WARRIOR - NatWar: Claws of the Grizzly: FEAT: Any advice?
Lvl 7 - DRUID / NATURE'S WARRIOR
Lvl 8 - DRUID / NATURE'S WARRIOR - NatWar: Fast healing 1
Lvl 9 - DRUID / NATURE'S WARRIOR - FEAT: Any advice?
Lvl 10 - DRUID / NATURE'S WARRIOR - NatWar: Damage reduction 3/-


We use 83 point buy 1 to 1 - I want to play a Wood Elf (I know Human or other would be more optimized)
14+2 = 16
14+2 = 16
16-2 = 14
14-2 = 12
15 = 15 (dedicate stat points to wisdom)
10 = 10

The other player (Human: Wilderness Rogue/Paladin going for Dread Commando for prestige class) is very concerned that my character is much more powerful than him. He takes the alternate rogue feature where he gets fighter Bonus feats instead of Sneak Attack. He takes the paladin alternate class feature where he gets bonus feats instead of paladin spells.
He wields a 2handed sword str 18. He specifically says that he doesn't want any spells class, which to me is his own nail in his coffin, because spell classes always are potentially more powerful.
I would like to include Warshaper to my build but my co player says that is a "tier 1" too powerful, so I compromise. Also I think that me taking the Shapeshifter variant is much less powerful than core druid for the broken Shape Shift? So I don't really se the problem?

I would like to hear:
- some generel advice for this build?
- any suggestions for other feats?
- which are the best spells? (core only)
- stats?
- Is my character much more powerful than that of my co-player?

[Jack_Simth]

The other player (Human: Wilderness Rogue/Paladin going for Dread Commando for prestige class) is very concerned that my character is much more powerful than him. He takes the alternate rogue feature where he gets fighter Bonus feats instead of Sneak Attack. He takes the paladin alternate class feature where he gets bonus feats instead of paladin spells.
He wields a 2handed sword str 18. He specifically says that he doesn't want any spells class, which to me is his own nail in his coffin, because spell classes always are potentially more powerful.
Mostly correct. In terms of power curves:
A Melee type starts off above average, but falls behind by mid levels (player skill trumps character power even at the start, however).
A Full Caster type starts off below average, but rise above everyone else by mid levels.
A Skillful type is about average at all levels.


I would like to include Warshaper to my build but my co player says that is a "tier 1" too powerful, so I compromise. Also I think that me taking the Shapeshifter variant is much less powerful than core druid for the broken Shape Shift? So I don't really se the problem?
Yes, Shapeshifter is much less powerful. However... you take away Wild Shape, and Druid is still tier-1. A lower tier-1, but still tier-1. You take away Spells, and the Druid is Tier-3.



I would like to hear:
- some generel advice for this build?
- any suggestions for other feats? You're short party members. Pick up Leadership for a nice support class - a Cloistered Cleric focusing on healing and buffing, which you mostly keep in the background, perhaps. There's a lot of fix-it spells that the Druid misses.

- which are the best spells? (core only)The one that happens to be right for the current situation. If you plan on mixing it up in melee, you're looking for long-duration buffs, such as Barkskin. You may also have fun with the weapon spells, such as Flame Blade, although you'll want to Quicken most of those.


- Is my character much more powerful than that of my co-player?Yes. By a lot. A Druid-10, all by itself, is very liable to beat down a rogue//paladin-10.

With just two characters, I'd usually suggest something like a Druid//Ninja and a Druid//Cloistered Cleric (make sure to get the Magic domain). Lots of skills, two meatshields (the animal companions), and lots of spells. Leadership and Cohorts are al. Once Wildshape comes online, the Druid//Ninja wrecks face easily (wildshape into something with pounce and multiple natural attacks, swift-action invisibility, then pounce for full Sudden Strike on five attacks... most things die to that).

[emeraldstreak]

Get Unarmed Swordsage variant and read up on how to optimize Monk-like damage dice.