Attack Potions?

[Triskavanski]

Is there a rule that prevents a person from creating a potion of say, Charm Person or Shocking touch and then using it as an attack based potion?

[Telonius]

Not really, but you'd have to force or trick the target into drinking the potion. If you've got something in a position where you can pour a potion down its throat, there's probably worse things you can do to them than casting Shocking Grasp.

[Zanos]

Couple things.


A potion is a magic liquid that produces its effect when imbibed.

Potions are like spells cast upon the imbiber.

The drinker of a potion is both the effective target and the caster of the effect (though the potion indicates the caster level, the drinker still controls the effect).

You'd have to grapple someone to force them to drink something, probably.

[Telonius]

Also, for Charm Person, that's basically an Elixir of Love (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#elixirofLove). (A Wondrous Item, oddly, not a potion).

[inuyasha]

There doesn't seem to be, but it is important to note that the drinker of a potion is both the caster and the target, so the charm person example wouldn't really work.

However, my group did come up for a completely unofficial use for Charm Person, as an NPC was in a similar predicament of being able to use it only on themselves. We have determined that Charm Person works as a very effective antidepressant, and helps to banish suicidal thoughts since it makes the target friendly towards the caster.

[pupaeted]

The rules say you can administer a potion to an unconscious creature. I think they're imagining force-feeding an unconscious party member a curing potion, but there's a fair argument that if you could get your target helpless you could pour a potion down their throat.

There's also a PrC in Magic of Eberron, Alchemist Savant, that lets you craft potion splash weapons called spellvials. The spells are limited to ones that target specific creatures, but that's how you'd get a Charm Person splash potion. Spellvials aren't limited to the character who made them either, so you might be able to have an Alchemist Savant shopkeeper who sells completed spellvials.

[Crake]

Keep in mind that regardless of who is administering the potion, the imbiber is still both caster and target, so something like charm person would do nothing but make the person friendly with themself, which is likely going to achieve nothing. They also arguably get a save if they're unconscious, if the spell offers it, unless the spell is harmless or only functions on willing targets.

[pupaeted]

which is likely going to achieve nothing
It will make them incredibly annoying.

[inuyasha]

It will make them incredibly annoying.

They'd be pretty cheery, especially with a regularly cheery individual, but as I said above, a particularly morose person could sort of equalize.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Magic of Eberron introduced the alchemist savant which can make spell-vials; effectively offensive potions for double the cost they'd otherwise have. They're used as a thrown weapon.

Given the existence of the above and the nature of potions, I let my players purchase spell-vials as easily as they do normal potions.

[ShurikVch]

Is there a rule that prevents a person from creating a potion of say, Charm Person or Shocking touch and then using it as an attack based potion?Oil may work much better there...
That is - if you know how to make oils...

[pupaeted]

Oil may work much better there...
That is - if you know how to make oils...
[NPC while the adventurer smears oil onto them] "I don't know what you're doing, but I love you for it."

[Ashtagon]

Is there a rule that prevents a person from creating a potion of say, Charm Person or Shocking touch and then using it as an attack based potion?

Aside from potions being self-only spells, you mean?

[Kelb_Panthera]

Aside from potions being self-only spells, you mean?

Clarification: you can't make a potion with a personal range spell. They are defacto limited to self-buffs and healing for the most part because of the inordinate difficulty of using them on someone else.

[pupaeted]

Aside from potions being self-only spells, you mean?


Clarification: you can't make a potion with a personal range spell. They are defacto limited to self-buffs and healing for the most part because of the inordinate difficulty of using them on someone else.

Actually there's a weird discrepancy with that. Brew Potion says "You can create a potion of any 3rd-level or lower spell that you know and that targets one or more creatures," but the rule for potions in general is "A potion or oil ... can duplicate the effect of a spell of up to 3rd level that has a casting time of less than 1 minute."

So while it isn't possible to brew a potion from a personal-range spell, it isn't necessarily impossible for one to exist. So it's totally possible to have a guild of alchemist savants hidden away somewhere, cranking out personal range potions via Brew Universal Potion.

But that's getting away from the point a bit.

So far the oil route seems the easiest to access. The SRD says "Likewise, it takes a full-round action to apply an oil to an unconscious creature," so it seems implicit that rubbing an oil onto a creature can deliver an effect as easily as drinking a potion, if you ignore the mess and awkwardness, and when you apply an oil you do count as the caster, while the smear-ee counts as the target.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Actually there's a weird discrepancy with that. Brew Potion says "You can create a potion of any 3rd-level or lower spell that you know and that targets one or more creatures," but the rule for potions in general is "A potion or oil ... can duplicate the effect of a spell of up to 3rd level that has a casting time of less than 1 minute."

So while it isn't possible to brew a potion from a personal-range spell, it isn't necessarily impossible for one to exist. So it's totally possible to have a guild of alchemist savants hidden away somewhere, cranking out personal range potions via Brew Universal Potion.

But that's getting away from the point a bit.



Actually, I was referring to this:
Spells with a range of personal cannot be made into potions. Found here. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/creatingMagicItems.htm#creatingPotions)

[pupaeted]

Actually, I was referring to this: Found here. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/creatingMagicItems.htm#creatingPotions)
Hm, yeah. Good spot. I thought universal potion might sidestep the brew feat's limitation.

[Afgncaap5]

I always felt it was notable that the Javelin of Lightning has a price that's similar to the price of a potion that's been doubled, which is in keeping with spell vials (though "make that target take damage as if from a lightning bolt spell" is definitely a different effect than "let me cast lightning bolt in a straight line thataway" so the javelin is still arguably more useful.)

Similarly, the fact that a new player taking the Brew Potion feat can't make a love potion (because you need Craft Wondrous Item for that, apparently) is needlessly misleading. I houserule that any potion, salve, oil, unguent, elixir, or other similar concoction can be made by someone with the Brew Potion feat, and that Craft Wondrous Item players can craft them if they also have five ranks in Craft (Alchemy). Probably the first thing that made me dislike the plug-and-play nature of 3.5's magic items (and magic in general.)

[Vaern]

I asked Wizards about making offensive potions back when they actually answered questions about 3.5.
The main restriction is that it must target a creature. You couldn't make a potion of fireball, for example, because it targets an area and not actually the creatures within the area. However, there is absolutely nothing that would prevent you from creating potions of spells such as the Inflict Wounds series, or even a potion of Bestow Curse.

And also mind that, unless I am mistaken, you can use Brew Potion to create oils, which function like potions applied to objects (in which you are the caster and the object is the target). Most of the oils listed in the DMG are applicable to weapons, but it is also possible to make oils of spells such as knock and arcane lock, continual flame, rusting grasp, and animate rope.

[Afgncaap5]

And also mind that, unless I am mistaken, you can use Brew Potion to create oils, which function like potions applied to objects (in which you are the caster and the object is the target). Most of the oils listed in the DMG are applicable to weapons, but it is also possible to make oils of spells such as knock and arcane lock, continual flame, rusting grasp, and animate rope.

I'm... trying to decide if I'd pay 350 gp for a single-use "make anything a torch permanently" effect. ...I'm honestly conflicted. I know there are cheaper ways, but still.

[Telok]

As I recall the cost of a potion (via Brew Potion) and the cost of an elixir (via Craft Wonderous) is the same.

That said there's no reason that you can't make an Inflict Moderate Wounds potion and label it "healing". If the creator of the potion is healed by negative energy it would be perfectly logical.

[pupaeted]

That said there's no reason that you can't make an Inflict Moderate Wounds potion and label it "healing". If the creator of the potion is healed by negative energy it would be perfectly logical.
Don't accept healing potions from the undead, kids.

[Vaern]

I'm... trying to decide if I'd pay 350 gp for a single-use "make anything a torch permanently" effect. ...I'm honestly conflicted. I know there are cheaper ways, but still.
I mean, it's literally the same effect as an everburning torch. A scroll would be cheaper than an oil, and I'm fairly certain that the cost of an everburning torch (which is cheaper still) is the same price as simply having someone cast the spell on anything that you want to turn into a torch.
I'm not saying it's a particularly good investment, of course. It's just a possibility :P


That said there's no reason that you can't make an Inflict Moderate Wounds potion and label it "healing". If the creator of the potion is healed by negative energy it would be perfectly logical.

I once played a character with the Tomb-Tainted Soul feat (and a few others that branch off of it). You are still a living creature, but you are harmed by positive energy and healed by negative energy as though you were undead. I strongly suggested that the party keep out of my bags and not touch my potions. Someone didn't listen.

[Thurbane]

A Potion of Inflict X Wounds may need to made into an Oil so a Skeleton can use it! :smalltongue: