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YouCanTry
2017-01-21, 09:31 PM
First and foremost let me give credit to the one who inspired this HERE: (EDIT: I can not add links so his username is Das_Uberboat and he created the druid subclass based around dragons here on Giant in the Playground and I wanted to create my own based on his work)

I have tried to make what I believe is a balanced alternative to this, but I would really appreciate your feedback on balancing. I will be playtesting this in the near future and will most likely discover some things that are "too good" or "not good enough" (or at least I hope to)

If you have any advice, balancing issues, or suggestions, I would greatly appreciate any feedback. Thanks in advance! :smallsmile:

Circle of the Wyrm
The Circle of the Wyrm is a legendary druid circle that has fallen into myth. Not all druids are willing to bear the burden of the Wyrm, but those who are willing and capable enough, often pass into myth themselves.

Draconic - level 2
When you choose this circle at 2nd level, you gain Draconic as a language if you do not have it already.

Dragon Shape – Level 2
The rites of your circle grant you the ability to transform into draconic forms. Starting at 2nd level, you can use your Wild Shape to transform into creatures of the Dragon variety up to CR 1.
You follow the Wild Shape table's normal movement type restrictions only able to use the movement appropriate for your level may not utilize a dragons fly speed while in dragon form until you reach level 8. Additionally, while in dragon form, your breath weapon recharges on a short or long rest. Your Wild Shape also becomes particularly taxing; you may only recharge Wild Shapes on a long rest, and each Wild Shape used to transform into a dragon causes one level of exhaustion after reversion to your normal form. You may not cast spells through innate spellcasting or any other means until 18th level when spell casting becomes available to you through the Beast Spells Druid Class Feature, such as the faerie dragon's ability to cast certain spells once per day.
Starting at 6th level, you can transform into a form with a challenge rating as high as your druid level divided by 3, rounded down.

Wyrm Heal – Level 6 Level 10
Starting at 6th level, during a short rest, you may attempt to reduce your exhaustion level by one level by rolling your Wyrm dye. You successfully lower your level of exhaustion by one level if your Wyrm die lands on a one or two. This ability has no effect if you are not affected by exhaustion. Once used successfully, Wyrm heal cannot be used again until completing a long rest.
Your Wyrm Heal dice is a d8 at 6th level, d6 at 10th level, and d4 at 14th level.

Favored Form Tooth and Claw – Level 6
While in dragon form, you are immune to any spell or effect that would alter your form.
Starting at 6th level, your attacks in dragon form count as magical for the purpose of overcoming resistance and immunity to non-magical attacks and damage.

True Dragon – Level 10Favored Identity - Level 6
You may add double your proficiency bonus to ability checks that involve conversing with, recalling information about, or identifying dragons.

True Dragon – Level 10
Starting at 10th level, you may spend both uses of Wild Shape to transform into a Young Dragon or Wyvern. However, Wild Shaping this way causes levels of exhaustion equal to half the dragon's CR, rounded down.

Dragon's Breath – Level 14
Starting at 14th level, you gain a 5-6 recharge on your breath weapon at the start of each round, while in dragon form.

Change Shape – Level 14
You always have the spells alter self and disguise self prepared; these do not count against your list of prepared spells, and may cast these spells even when in Dragon form; however, for the spells condition you are always considered a humanoid bipedal individual of medium or smaller size.
Main questions/ concerns I can come up with at the moment:
-Am I trying to pack too much in here?
-I feel as though reducing the Breath Weapon to only being able to use it once per encounter (at the most/ if the player are lucky enough to get a short rest between encounters) will be very effective in making the dragon shape more balanced.
-I feel like exhaustion will be a massive hit to the playability of this circle (and I might be over/under estimating how much exhaustion will limit the character)
-Should I limit or even illuminate the use of wild shaping into beasts? (I feel like this will be both good and bad. If I keep beasts, on one hand it provides more flexibility, but on the other you only get two wild shapes per long rest so it would be much more costly to wild shape [especially because you can not exceed 1 CR with beasts and that's once you reach level 8])
-I feel like another really big factor is that you only get two wild shapes per long rest which will really limit the use of wild shape and the user will have to be very cautious of when to use wild shape

Edit(s) will be underlined and italicized (or crossed out)

Potato_Priest
2017-01-22, 03:09 AM
I'm going to type my concerns and comments in italicized text underneath each section.



Circle of the Wyrm
The Circle of the Wyrm is a legendary druid circle that has fallen into myth. Not all druids are willing to bear the burden of the Wyrm, but those who are willing and capable enough, often pass into myth themselves.

I'd like a bit more about what those of the Circle of the worm actually DO, but it's not an immediate issue.

Draconic - level 2
When you choose this circle at 2nd level, you gain Draconic as a language if you do not have it already.

Dragon Shape – Level 2
The rites of your circle grant you the ability to transform into draconic forms. Starting at 2nd level, you can use your Wild Shape to transform into creatures of the Dragon variety up to CR 1.
You follow the Wild Shape table's normal movement type restrictions, only able to use the movement appropriate for your level. Additionally, while in dragon form, your breath weapon recharges on a short or long rest. Your Wild Shape also becomes particularly taxing; you may only recharge Wild Shapes on a long rest, and each Wild Shape used to transform into a dragon causes one level of exhaustion after reversion to your normal form.
Starting at 6th level, you can transform into a form with a challenge rating as high as your druid level divided by 3, rounded down.

So, what all forms are actually available? Seems like it's pretty exclusively fairy dragons, and you can't even get those until you get to level 9 and can have a fly speed. Do you play with additional (non-winged) dragon types? Until level 4, there isn't even a possibility of getting multiple breath weapons from a wild shape, because your transformation only lasts for the time it takes to take a short rest. Due to the really strict limitations here, I think that exhaustion thing is way too punishing. Getting your wildshapes back on a long rest is enough to account for any power discrepancies between this and moon in my book.

Wyrm Heal – Level 6
Starting at 6th level, during a short rest, you may attempt to reduce your exhaustion level by one level by rolling your Wyrm dye. You successfully lower your level of exhaustion by one level if your Wyrm die lands on a one or two. This ability has no effect if you are not affected by exhaustion. Once used successfully, Wyrm heal cannot be used again until completing a long rest.
Your Wyrm Heal dice is a d8 at 6th level, d6 at 10th level, and d4 at 14th level.

I'd take out the exhaustion mechanic, and this with it.

Favored Form – Level 6
While in dragon form, you are immune to any spell or effect that would alter your form.

This is really super specific, and hardly useful. It's not even very flavorful, so it doesn't even make a good ribbon. I'd replace it with making the Dragon form's melee attacks magical damage.

True Dragon – Level 10
Starting at 10th level, you may spend both uses of Wild Shape to transform into a Young Dragon or Wyvern. However, Wild Shaping this way causes levels of exhaustion equal to half the dragon's CR, rounded down.
You may add your proficiency bonus to ability checks that involve conversing with, recalling information about, or identifying dragons.

I'd make that double the proficiency bonus, as a lot of the time people are going to be proficient with at least one of those abilities anyway. You also might consider moving the Persuading and knowing ability to the level 2 feature where you learn draconic.

I'm OK with exhaustion here, given how amazing young dragons are.

Dragon's Breath – Level 14
Starting at 14th level, you gain a 5-6 recharge on your breath weapon at the start of each round, while in dragon form.

No complaints or suggestions here.

Change Shape – Level 14
You always have the spells alter self and disguise self prepared; these do not count against your list of prepared spells, and may cast these spells even when in Dragon form; however, for the spells condition you are always considered a humanoid bipedal individual.

Wait, what? How can you cast alter self as a large size category dragon/wyvern and disguise yourself as a human(because you count as a humanoid), when you can't change your size category with alter self? Is this ability only useful for disguising yourself as an ogre or a troll? You need to really clearly state how this works, or remove it. This ability doesn't really need to be here, Dragon's Breath is good enough for lvl 14.


Main questions/ concerns I can come up with at the moment:
-Am I trying to pack too much in here?
-I feel as though reducing the Breath Weapon to only being able to use it once per encounter (at the most/ if the player are lucky enough to get a short rest between encounters) will be very effective in making the dragon shape more balanced.
-I feel like exhaustion will be a massive hit to the playability of this circle (and I might be over/under estimating how much exhaustion will limit the character)
-Should I limit or even illuminate the use of wild shaping into beasts? (I feel like this will be both good and bad. If I keep beasts, on one hand it provides more flexibility, but on the other you only get two wild shapes per long rest so it would be much more costly to wild shape [especially because you can not exceed 1 CR with beasts and that's once you reach level 8])

Letting people turn into beasts is probably fine. It helps to maintain some of the utility of Wild Shape, but at significant cost, due to the long rest recharge rate.

-I feel like another really big factor is that you only get two wild shapes per long rest which will really limit the use of wild shape and the user will have to be very cautious of when to use wild shape

A few other things:

Fairy dragons have innate spellcasting. How does that work if you wildshape into one?

What dragons are even available at low levels? Guard drakes from Volo's guide (CR 2) are the only dragon without a fly speed, and you can only turn into them at level 6.

YouCanTry
2017-01-22, 06:04 PM
A few other things:

Fairy dragons have innate spellcasting. How does that work if you wildshape into one?

What dragons are even available at low levels? Guard drakes from Volo's guide (CR 2) are the only dragon without a fly speed, and you can only turn into them at level 6.

Concerning Faerie Dragons: Under Wild shaping rules it declares that spells can not be cast; however, I can see how that could be confusing considering it is Innate Spellcasting. I will fix that (Thank you)

Here I will list all dragon variety monsters that are listed in the MM according to their listed CR.
To my knowledge:

CHALLENGE 1/4 (50 XP)
Pseudodragon

CHALLENGE 1 (200 XP)
Brass dragon wyrmling
Copper dragon wyrmling
Faerie dragon youth

CHALLENGE 2 (450 XP)
Black dragon wyrmling
Bronze dragon wyrmling
Faerie dragon old
Green dragon wyrmling
Silver dragon wyrmling
White dragon wyrmling

CHALLENGE 3 (700 XP)
Blue dragon wyrmling
Gold dragon wyrmling

CHALLENGE 4 (1,100 XP)
Red dragon wyrmling

CHALLENGE 6 (2,300 XP)
Young brass dragon
Young white dragon
Wyvern

CHALLENGE 7 (2,900 XP)
Young black dragon
Young copper dragon

CHALLENGE 8 (3,900 XP)
Young bronze dragon
Young green dragon

CHALLENGE 9 (5,000 XP)
Young blue dragon
Young silver dragon

CHALLENGE 10 (5,900 XP)
Young gold dragon
Young red dragon

CHALLENGE 13 (10,000 XP)
Adult brass dragon
Adult white dragon

CHALLENGE 14 (11,500 XP)
Adult black dragon
Adult copper dragon

CHALLENGE 15 (13,000 XP)
Adult bronze dragon
Adult green dragon


CHALLENGE 16 (15,000 XP)
Adult blue dragon
Adult silver dragon

CHALLENGE 17 (18,000 XP)
Adult gold dragon
Adult red dragon
Dragon turtle

CHALLENGE 20 (25,000 XP)
Ancient brass dragon
Ancient white dragon

CHALLENGE 21 (33,000 XP)
Ancient black dragon
Ancient copper dragon

CHALLENGE 22 (41,000 XP)
Ancient bronze dragon
Ancient green dragon

CHALLENGE 23 (50,000 XP)
Ancient blue dragon
Ancient silver dragon

CHALLENGE 24 (62,000XP)
Ancient gold dragon
Ancient red dragon

EDIT: I sent the above because I completely missed your first statement "I'm going to type my concerns and comments in italicized text underneath each section." Sorry about the confusion.
Concerning movement: While dragons have a fly speed (or swim speed) the player will not be able to use either of these movements until they reach the appropriate (level 4 for swimming/ level 8 for flying). Only being able to use the regular walk speed at lower levels. [I have clarified this]

Concerning the flavor text: I completely agree. I really need to work on it, but haven't had too much time besides coming up with the basic concept.

Concerning the Dragon Shape ability: I purposefully limited the breath weapon because even CR 1 dragons can dish out a lot of damage (4d6) to multiple targets if they are within the 20ft line of the dragons breath. At level 2 I thought that was a lot of damage, but I am relatively new and might have scaled it back too much. I will have to think about removing the exhaustion, but maybe I will add a second use of the breath weapon. Maybe say 2 breath weapons per wild shape? Thought?

Concerning the Wyrm Heal and True Dragon: I agree with your point about the double proficiency. I will change that now. I believe I will switch Wyrm Heal to a 10th level ability to use with Young dragons boost to Exhaustion levels, and make the double proficiency a level 6 ability.

Concerning Favored Form: I think I agree with this one, but I didnt want to flat out make it the same ability moon druids get. I will have to think about it. [I have changed this feature to Tooth and Claw. Attacks now do magic damage as suggested]

Concerning Change Shape: I meant to emulate the dragons ability to disguise as a humanoid without incorporating the polymorph into beasts feature. I mean that the player would be able to transform into a humanoid of any small or medium size. I also did not want to make these spells at will considering I am granting access to two spells. I will try and clear this up and will consider removing it. [I have tried to clarify this. Am still considering removing it, but am not sure.]
P.S. I like your signature. The idea sounds fun.

Potato_Priest
2017-01-22, 08:45 PM
Concerning Change Shape: I meant to emulate the dragons ability to disguise as a humanoid without incorporating the polymorph into beasts feature. I mean that the player would be able to transform into a humanoid of any small or medium size. I also did not want to make these spells at will considering I am granting access to two spells. I will try and clear this up and will consider removing it. [I have tried to clarify this. Am still considering removing it, but am not sure.]
P.S. I like your signature. The idea sounds fun.

I am very amused by the idea of a human shapeshifting to a dragon that then subsequently shapeshifts into a human. This is by far the subclass's most useful ability. I don't know how they'd possibly go unnoticed in towns and cities without it. :smallamused:


It's a bit like in The Life of Brian, when the male actors play women who disguise themselves as men.



You did a nice job clarifying the speed thing. I like the way that it takes time to learn to fly, just as you would expect for a human who suddenly has wings.

P.S. People still laugh about the fact that the train didn't have any brakes. The first xp-yielding encounter for the players was a long downhill stretch. :smallbiggrin:

YouCanTry
2017-01-24, 12:58 AM
I am very amused by the idea of a human shapeshifting to a dragon that then subsequently shapeshifts into a human. This is by far the subclass's most useful ability. I don't know how they'd possibly go unnoticed in towns and cities without it. :smallamused:


It's a bit like in The Life of Brian, when the male actors play women who disguise themselves as men.


You did a nice job clarifying the speed thing. I like the way that it takes time to learn to fly, just as you would expect for a human who suddenly has wings.

P.S. People still laugh about the fact that the train didn't have any brakes. The first xp-yielding encounter for the players was a long downhill stretch. :smallbiggrin:

Thank you so much for your input!
That is pretty funny (I have never actually seen The Life of Brian, but it is an excellent analogy)
That was my original intent, but for some reason I had worded it completely differnt then what I though I did. Sometimes a fresh pair of eyes is really helpful !!! Glad you liked the idea. :smalltongue:
I would have loved to have seen the events unfold, especially knowing the players got such a kick out of it as well. :smallsmile:

YouCanTry
2017-01-24, 01:01 AM
Any more comments or suggestions would be greatly appreciated by anyone who would like to chim in.

PEACH away :smallsmile: