Sorcadin or Not: Help I'm a noob!

[FizzingSoda]

Hello, gotta say i've seen this site a lot when googling d&d stuff so it seemed appropiate to ask my own question since it's kind of specific. Even though there's countless of Sorcadin's "gish" [as you guys seem to call it] builds; I need to know what do in my specific case.

I'm playing a homebrew campaign with a group of close friends and we're all new to D&D. We decided on 3.5 since our DM's cousin had the books and gave them to us. Since we were all new we thought we shouldn't look into Multiclassing yet since it seemed far too complicated, and we wanted to "dive into the game asap" but now the time has arrived where some of us, mostly me, want to try it out. However my problem is:

I'm a Paladin Level 8, (about 500 exp points away from hitting 9) and I thought I should go into multiclassing. Started looking into it and found about the popular build which includes Prestige Classes and tbh we didn't even know they existed so, since I don't want to just give up since I didn't do it from the start I'm determined to find something that works for my situation.

I have a 20 STR, 12 DEX, 16 CON, INT 10, WIS 14, CHA 18.
Feats:
Endurance
Die Hard
Improved Initiative
Combat Reflexes

So as you can see this was a very rushed character in feats situation, took what seemed cool at the time of reading it, didn't expect a future.
I am of course convinced I'm not getting a "Gish Build" but however I still want to have some sort of cool build around it where it focuses on being a Paladin but with some Magic to assist, and buff up so I need help on what feats should i take for the remaining levels, and what spells could help me.

I have a "Holy Avenger" ( +5 holy coldiron longsword ) so Magic Weapon spells shouldn't be a problem.

I know my situation seems hard to do but any suggestions on what I can do (as long as it's in the books) could help. Thank you in advance :smallsmile:

[John Longarrow]

Do you want to strong casting, Good BAB, or are you looking at neat class features in addition to casting?

[FizzingSoda]

Do you want to strong casting, Good BAB, or are you looking at neat class features in addition to casting?

Not sure, definitely not strong casting though, doesn't seem possible at this point, so good BAB might be nice with some neat things to sprinkle the paladin with. Want mostly to still be focused on hitting hard with holy avenger strikes for example.

[John Longarrow]

If you have access to Complete Mage, check out "Abjurant Champion". Full BAB, Full casting, and some useful class features.

At level 9 take your one level dip into Sorcerer and take the feat Combat Casting. Then go up Abjurant Champion for its 5 levels. This will mean that at 14th level you will have a BAB of 13 and access to 3rd level Arcane spells. Because the 5th level class feature for Abjurant champion sets your caster level equal to your BAB you'll notice your spells work pretty well.

Big bonus this gives is you have access to the Shield spell and Abjurant Champion improves this spell as you level up.

This also lets you see what you do / don't like in casting arcane spells and lets you decide if you want to enhance you melee ability OR improve casting.

[FizzingSoda]

If you have access to Complete Mage, check out "Abjurant Champion". Full BAB, Full casting, and some useful class features.

At level 9 take your one level dip into Sorcerer and take the feat Combat Casting. Then go up Abjurant Champion for its 5 levels. This will mean that at 14th level you will have a BAB of 13 and access to 3rd level Arcane spells. Because the 5th level class feature for Abjurant champion sets your caster level equal to your BAB you'll notice your spells work pretty well.

Big bonus this gives is you have access to the Shield spell and Abjurant Champion improves this spell as you level up.

This also lets you see what you do / don't like in casting arcane spells and lets you decide if you want to enhance you melee ability OR improve casting.

Sounds like a very good option, what spells do you recommend me getting, besides Shield, then?

[BaronDoctor]

Luminous Armor out of Book of Exalted Deeds is an Abjuration spell that gives an armor bonus to AC. Basically, the premise behind a "gish" is something that provides its own buff spells. Having a Holy Avenger gives you access to Dispel Magic.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?445134-Weekly-Optimization-Showcase-quot-A-quot-Game-Paladin This always comes to mind as a sort of "improved Paladin".

[ChaosStar]

I'd think long and hard about it if you want to do this since, unless you take certain feats, you cannot take another level in Paladin if you take a level in any other class.

[Kelb_Panthera]

For my two coppers; forget sorcerer. Complete arcane's suel arcanamach combo'd to complete mage's abjurant champion would work better if you're getting into it this late.

[ExLibrisMortis]

At this point, going sorcerer is not ideal. A faster-progression class is probably better.

1) Retrain paladin level 4 to Mystic Fire Knight (alternative paladin levels, Champions of Valour), retrain Endurance to Battle Blessing (feat, Complete Champion), retrain Diehard to Sword of the Arcane Order (feat, CoV), and retrain Improved Initiative to Practiced Spellcaster (feat, Complete Arcane). This supercharges your paladin casting, giving you a caster level of 6 + ½ paladin level (up to character level), with the ability to cast most spells as a swift action, and the ability to prepare and cast wizard spells using your paladin spell slots.

2) Become a Divine Crusader (prestige class, Complete Divine). To qualify, retrain Diehard into Weapon Focus (for your deity's favoured weapon). Divine Crusaders cast spells from one domain list only, but they get higher-levelled spells quite quickly. Look into combining this with Ordained Champion, especially if you can replace paladin 7-8 with OC 1/DC 1.

Arcane classes to consider include Knight of the Weave and Suel Arcanamach. Both of those can be progressed with Abjurant Champion.

[Twurps]

Are you underperforming in the party?
If you're not, and everybody is having a good time, I'd be carefull with the amount of optimization I'd put into the build.

I'm not saying you shouldn't multiclass, or find a nice prestige-class. however: Retraining your build and adding wizard casting as exlibrismortis is suggesting will mean a significant power boost to your character. If you're party isn't up to par with that, you will start to outshine them quickly.

(if the rest of your party is cleric, druid and/or wizard (or any full caster basically), ignore my advice, you'll need every powerboost you can get to keep up with what higher level spells can do)

[gr8artist]

You have 2nd level divine spellcasting, one of the prerequisites for Mystic Theurge.
Abjurant Champion looks interesting, and doesn't slow down casting progression.
Maybe: Paladin 8 / Sorcerer 1 / Abjurant Champion 5 / Mystic Theurge 6?
You may also want to consider a dip into Bard. If you're not wearing heavy armor (since Abj Champ relies so heavily on protection spells), you could cast the Bard spells easily enough. Bardic Music and stuff might be handy, and play well with your high Charisma.
I mostly play PF so that's about as much as I can suggest.

[J-H]

If you have access to Tome of Battle, Crusader or Warblade will both help you while maintaining full BAB.
However, taking levels in a ToB class will make you outshine any rangers, monks, fighters, barbarians, etc. in the party unless they are heavily optimized.

[Zaq]

I'd think long and hard about it if you want to do this since, unless you take certain feats, you cannot take another level in Paladin if you take a level in any other class.

This is true, but to be fair, the OP basically won't get much benefit out of more levels of Paladin at this point. There aren't any new class features to gain at this point (just more of the same), so anything the OP might want out of Paladin levels at some point in the future could probably be gained through PrCs or through other classes.

[FizzingSoda]

At this point, going sorcerer is not ideal. A faster-progression class is probably better.

1) Retrain paladin level 4 to Mystic Fire Knight (alternative paladin levels, Champions of Valour), retrain Endurance to Battle Blessing (feat, Complete Champion), retrain Diehard to Sword of the Arcane Order (feat, CoV), and retrain Improved Initiative to Practiced Spellcaster (feat, Complete Arcane). This supercharges your paladin casting, giving you a caster level of 6 + ½ paladin level (up to character level), with the ability to cast most spells as a swift action, and the ability to prepare and cast wizard spells using your paladin spell slots.

2) Become a Divine Crusader (prestige class, Complete Divine). To qualify, retrain Diehard into Weapon Focus (for your deity's favoured weapon). Divine Crusaders cast spells from one domain list only, but they get higher-levelled spells quite quickly. Look into combining this with Ordained Champion, especially if you can replace paladin 7-8 with OC 1/DC 1.

Arcane classes to consider include Knight of the Weave and Suel Arcanamach. Both of those can be progressed with Abjurant Champion.

Although I appreciate all of the feedback I recieved, this basically means "re-do your character compeltely" which i do not want to do and it literally would be easier to die. However thanks a lot for the insight.
Plus retraining is very time/money consuming


Are you underperforming in the party?
If you're not, and everybody is having a good time, I'd be carefull with the amount of optimization I'd put into the build.

I'm not saying you shouldn't multiclass, or find a nice prestige-class. however: Retraining your build and adding wizard casting as exlibrismortis is suggesting will mean a significant power boost to your character. If you're party isn't up to par with that, you will start to outshine them quickly.

(if the rest of your party is cleric, druid and/or wizard (or any full caster basically), ignore my advice, you'll need every powerboost you can get to keep up with what higher level spells can do)

Party consists of Sorcerer, Druid, Ranger and Rogue/Cleric. I'm not undeprerforming but I kinda just wanted somethign magical for thematical reasons and to "tank" better. The ranger has the most OP weapon in the campaign (homebrewed) since it is the "chosen" sword; one of the keys to winning the campaign basically so I'm not afraid of excelling a bit since we were all offered the multiclassing and I'm not hiding anything from them, we all share the knowledge we find since as i said, we're still all kinda new, and if i learn about somethign that helps them i suggest it to them. So outshining isnt a problem and that's also the reason i'm not afraid of accidentally nerfing myself by going into it this late. :smallbiggrin:


You have 2nd level divine spellcasting, one of the prerequisites for Mystic Theurge.
Abjurant Champion looks interesting, and doesn't slow down casting progression.
Maybe: Paladin 8 / Sorcerer 1 / Abjurant Champion 5 / Mystic Theurge 6?
You may also want to consider a dip into Bard. If you're not wearing heavy armor (since Abj Champ relies so heavily on protection spells), you could cast the Bard spells easily enough. Bardic Music and stuff might be handy, and play well with your high Charisma.
I mostly play PF so that's about as much as I can suggest.

That actually sounds nice, didn't know what to finish those last levels in without resorting to "asking the dm if i could finish them in paladin even if it's against raw" and about Bard, although sounds fun I'd rather save it for a future character. Thank you! Mystic Theurge might be just the right thing!


If you have access to Tome of Battle, Crusader or Warblade will both help you while maintaining full BAB.
However, taking levels in a ToB class will make you outshine any rangers, monks, fighters, barbarians, etc. in the party unless they are heavily optimized.

This also sounds nice, Crusader is basically an even more fanatic Paladn so I might do that, and it's alright, the only ranger in my party already outshines us since he has a bunch of magical items including the most pwoerful (homebrewed) sword in our campaign.

[John Longarrow]

Crusader can be played very paladin like but doesn't require you to do so. If Tome of Battle is available then dipping (or taking multiple levels) in Crusader and Warblade can really up your combat abilities. For more versatility out of combat and for a lot of really fun tricks sword sage is loads of fun.

For spells, since you'll be hitting arcane spell failure issues if you wear armor you may want to go Shield and Mage armor to begin with. Most offensive spells will be... underwhelming... since your not a primary caster but buff spells will be really useful for you. Spells that simply increase your stats won't be as useful for you since by your level you probably have magic items that do the job (or do it better) but spells like expeditious retreat and alter self can be very useful in and out of combat.

[flappeercraft]

I would reccomend taking a single level dip into Crusader and later on becoming a Ruby knight Vindicator or as many refer to it like Windicator

[J-H]

Good point. RKV is pretty powerful.