Black Widow needs her own movie! [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

Traab

2017-01-21, 11:40 PM

Im thinking a Bond, Jane Bond, style film. She works for SHIELD so she has her own Q division for neat gadgets, the black widow seducing her way into an old school infiltration, stealing secrets and making her getaway with a few well choreographed fight scenes, would be badass as hell. Maybe have a throwaway scene at the end where she gets back in and Tony is like, "So what were YOU up to all this time?" "Meh, typical tuesday"

We could even work with a few of the avengers universe groups like she has to infiltrate AIM and steal some info on what, I dunno, MODOK or the scientist supreme is up to. Or various other bad guys with full scale criminal organizations that arent headed up by people way out of her league like The Leader for example.

If thats no good then we could always go the origin story route. Cause man, her origin is a BEAUT!

Berserk Mecha

2017-01-22, 12:06 AM

snowblizz

2017-01-22, 04:44 AM

The Real Reason Marvel wont make a black widow movie (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BFpd5u816C8)

GloatingSwine

2017-01-22, 05:55 AM

You know who really needs getting in the MCU in her own movie (or TV show).

She Hulk.

She's always been way less boring than regular flavour Hulk, because she's got a personality aside from "Smash!", whilst keeping Smash! as an option on the table. Especially in the Netflix version of the MCU she'd be a necessary source of levity because she's a fun character as well.

BWR

2017-01-22, 07:16 AM

Screw BW, double screw that GITS monstrosity, bring back Agent Carter and give her a movie or three as well as the TV show.

Vinyadan

2017-01-22, 08:09 AM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j_5KgpN38hM

Aotrs Commander

2017-01-22, 09:06 AM

*Black Widow Trailer*

That is both hilarious and unfortunately probably a bit on the nose.

Rogar Demonblud

2017-01-22, 01:05 PM

The Real Reason Marvel wont make a black widow movie (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BFpd5u816C8)

Toys are becoming less of an issue, due to the collectors market. The main issue they have now is that ScarJo is about the hottest commodity among actresses, and she's committed to other projects for the next few years. If they want it sooner than, oh, 2022, they'll need to do something else.

Which is helped by the fact that the only strong solo storyline the Widow has (as opposed to sidekicking with {male} heroes) is her origin with the Red Room. You'd need a younger actress though (like the one who played her in the Ultron flashbacks).

Clertar

2017-01-22, 01:47 PM

Black Widow totally needs a movie as the main character, there's no discussion. However, a fanfic approach of "one day in the life of..." would be an incredible waste of such a movie. Black Widow is a very interesting character that deserves a character arc and some development that's not a romantic sub-subplot with the Hulk, and her solo movie should be that. It could be a great way to weave the Secret Avengers into the MCU, for example.

Traab

2017-01-22, 04:36 PM

Aside from her origin story, while she doesnt have a huge number of potential bad guys in her own rogues gallery, she is still one of SHIELDs top agents. Infiltrating AIM, or HYDRA, the Mandarins operation, or the Maggia woiuld give us the badass black widow spy movie where she is DOING HER JOB. She isnt really a superhero as such, she is a super spy. An infiltrator, an espionage expert, a thief and at time, assassin. Yeah she can clearly kick butt on par with any street level hero out there but thats not really what she is best at. As for some of the other arguments in that linked video, she would have no harder time going back to being a supporting character after getting a stand alone than any of the other avengers do with not being the main protagonist in an avengers film. The toy line.... eh. I think thats a relic holdover from the days when comic nerds were boys and unless it was anatomically correct, wouldnt much want a girl action figure. But the collectors are still going to want it, and im sure there is a sizeable audience of ladies out there who would like an action figure of their ass kicking female avenger character.

I do agree the biggest stumbling block is her now very busy schedule. By the time she could get around to filming a stand alone im pretty sure the hype would be fairly dead. I just really think it kinda sucks.

KillingAScarab

2017-01-22, 09:29 PM

For what it's worth, there's a Ghost in the Shell movie coming out this year. Yeah, I know it's not exactly a Black Widow movie, but it stars Scarlett Johnson being all acrobatic and sexy and shooting up robots, so it's kind of the same thing.While I can appreciate how the two might be confused, there's one large difference to start with between the two characters. Motoko Kusanagi (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motoko_Kusanagi) is Japanese.

The Glyphstone

2017-01-22, 09:33 PM

While I can appreciate how the two might be confused, there's one large difference to start with between the two characters. Motoko Kusanagi (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motoko_Kusanagi) is Japanese.

The fact that one is Russian and one is Japanese doesn't make him wrong. He's saying that since there is no Black Widow movie and unlikely to be one, the GITS movie is likely to be the next-best-thing that actually does exist along those lines (specifically the lines of ScarJo being acrobatic and sexy and fighting robots).

Lemmy

2017-01-22, 09:53 PM

I think BW would be better suited for a Netflix-style spy series. For a super-hero movie, I'd rather have She-Hulk or Captain Marvel.

Darth Ultron

2017-01-22, 10:16 PM

Originally Posted by Vinyadan View Post
*Black Widow Trailer*

Sadly, this is just too true.....lol.

Which is helped by the fact that the only strong solo storyline the Widow has (as opposed to sidekicking with {male} heroes) is her origin with the Red Room. You'd need a younger actress though (like the one who played her in the Ultron flashbacks).

There is no reason they could not do a young Black Widow movie. In fact one where Scarlet bookends the movie and does voice overs would work great. For example ''set'' the movie right after CA:Winter Solider. So Black Widow (Scarlet) is in a meeting with the idea of like ''ok, lets set the record straight, who are you Natasha?'' Then cue flashback, and (younger actress).....

Aside from her origin story, while she doesnt have a huge number of potential bad guys in her own rogues gallery,

This is much more of a good thing. A lot of MU villans are just tossed into movies for their super hero. But for BW, you can pick from the whole massive list of ''spy'' type villains in the Marvel universe.

And your not locked into ''ok, lets take this story line from the comics...change 99% of it except the names..and put it in the movie.''

Aedilred

2017-01-23, 05:42 PM

I'm personally very partial to Richard K Morgan's take (http://io9.gizmodo.com/how-to-make-black-widow-truly-awesome-according-to-ric-1703159410) on how a Wido movie should go.

So one of those ten-a-penny "dark and gritty" takes on a superhero that nobody has really pulled off on screen save Christopher Nolan? Something entirely at odds with almost everything that's made the Marvel films good and successful? I'm suddenly rather more relieved that such a venture is likely never to come to pass.

Giggling Ghast

2017-01-23, 05:55 PM

The Real Reason Marvel wont make a black widow movie (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BFpd5u816C8)

Yeah, that's pretty well spot on. There are bad reasons why there's no Black Widow movie, but there are good reasons as well, most notably the lack of a strong villain.

HYDRA served as the antagonist in most of her solo outings, and they're basically kaput as an organization now. (They suffered too many losses between Captain America, Avengers 2 and Agents of Shield. Eventually they ran out of heads.)

Darth Ultron

2017-01-23, 09:02 PM

Yeah, that's pretty well spot on. There are bad reasons why there's no Black Widow movie, but there are good reasons as well, most notably the lack of a strong villain.

Though most movie Marvel villains are weak anyway.

The nice thing is they could take anyone of the hundred evil ''spy'' villains, even if the Black Widow never ought them in issue whatever. Or get this, they could just make a new villain.

Giggling Ghast

2017-01-23, 09:17 PM

Though most movie Marvel villains are weak anyway.

I would disagree. Captain America in particular has had very strong villains. I also liked Loki, the Mandarin (the real one), Yellowjacket and Nebula.

The nice thing is they could take anyone of the hundred evil ''spy'' villains, even if the Black Widow never ought them in issue whatever. Or get this, they could just make a new villain.

Eh. Invented villains have generally had mixed results.

BiblioRook

2017-01-24, 02:31 AM

We could even work with a few of the avengers universe groups like she has to infiltrate AIM and steal some info on what, I dunno, MODOK or the scientist supreme is up to. Or various other bad guys with full scale criminal organizations that arent headed up by people way out of her league like The Leader for example.

I don't really see them pulling out MODOK any time soon (to much special effect for to little payoff I think). But someone like Monica Rappaccini? That I would love to see. I imagine if they ended up going with some Black Widow adventures it would end up being very low on the super-powered side of things anyways.

HYDRA served as the antagonist in most of her solo outings, and they're basically kaput as an organization now. (They suffered too many losses between Captain America, Avengers 2 and Agents of Shield. Eventually they ran out of heads.)

Marvel never really was lacking in the 'villainous organization' department and I always liked AIM more then HYDRA anyways. I mean, a whole organization based around mad science? There's so much to work with there!

You know who really needs getting in the MCU in her own movie (or TV show).

She Hulk.

She's always been way less boring than regular flavour Hulk, because she's got a personality aside from "Smash!", whilst keeping Smash! as an option on the table. Especially in the Netflix version of the MCU she'd be a necessary source of levity because she's a fun character as well.

Can you say 'Superhero courtroom antics'? Many of the She-Hulk stories were practically made for TV. Biggest obstacle I can think of is them trying to figure out a fluid way of introducing her other then 'Well, here she is!".

Kitten Champion

2017-01-24, 03:21 AM

I'm of the opinion that she should occupy the place that Mark Ruffalo's Hulk does, providing a viable supporting character to improve the work of other heroes. Her character is great for banter and providing a contrasting worldview from the other characters, Captain America: The Winter Soldier in particularly is a better movie for her presence in it because of how simplistic the Captain America character can be. Just as with Ruffalo, his presence in the next Thor movie is an all-around great idea for what he can provide the Thor character.

This is not what I would have said much earlier into the MCU's development, but at this point they're already pushing hard with future projects that adding more is less than ideal. Particularly with fledgling entries like Black Panther and Captain Marvel not yet having the possibility to prove themselves.

However, were I to design a Black Widow movie, I'd have picked up on Peggy Carter's story-line regarding Leviathan and the whole idea of Soviet Russia's answer to Hydra which tied into Black Widow's past. Have Madame Hydra as the villain - I suppose it's trite to give the female superhero a female supervillain but she's the most popular Marvel villain of which Marvel Studios has the rights and is within Natasha Romanov's skill to defeat - only tie her into the Black Widow program and lead a bunch of Leviathan militants who Black Widow has chosen to hunt down for character reasons after she learns that they're alive and in operation (which would also preclude the addition of other MCU heroes because she'll have internal justifications for wanting to resolve it on her own).

Carry on her redemption theme and have the villains-side have some ambiguity to it, insofar as that if she could become a hero than maybe they can despite what was done to them. The threat would also have to be of reasonable scale and the impetus for us the viewer would be more on the character-level than something more existential.

KillingAScarab

2017-01-24, 09:12 AM

However, were I to design a Black Widow movie, I'd have picked up on Peggy Carter's story-line regarding Leviathan and the whole idea of Soviet Russia's answer to Hydra which tied into Black Widow's past. Have Madame Hydra as the villain - I suppose it's trite to give the female superhero a female supervillain but she's the most popular Marvel villain of which Marvel Studios has the rights and is within Natasha Romanov's skill to defeat - only tie her into the Black Widow program and lead a bunch of Leviathan militants who Black Widow has chosen to hunt down for character reasons after she learns that they're alive and in operation (which would also preclude the addition of other MCU heroes because she'll have internal justifications for wanting to resolve it on her own).Can it be from when Viper was Madame Hydra? It would be a chance for the MCU to do a character better than Fox, because Viper was a terrible lizard-woman in The Wolverine. It would put the two even after Quicksilver.

Flickerdart

2017-01-24, 09:30 AM

A Black Widow movie will have to have her backstory, and her backstory is literally every single Cold War cliche put together. So it would be tricky to pull off. I don't think the comparison to James Bond is apt, because James Bond is not a person. His backstory is "guy who drinks martinis and shoots people" and that's easy to get out of the way.

Sapphire Guard

2017-01-24, 03:00 PM

One thing I would expect from this movie is BW being known as someone to be feared. I want everyone to react to her name the way people do to John Wick, no underestimation, no point scoring attempt to dominate, she's terrifying and everyone knows it.

Leewei

2017-01-24, 03:05 PM

GloatingSwine

2017-01-24, 03:12 PM

I would disagree. Captain America in particular has had very strong villains. I also liked Loki, the Mandarin (the real one), Yellowjacket and Nebula.

Captain America doesn't have strong villains though. That's why the Cap movies have barely used them.

Marvel really does have a weak set of villains, most individual heroes' rogues gallery are all small timers that nobody has heard of, and there are relatively few exceptions to that like Doctor Doom or Magneto.

Why do you think their big summer crossovers are all "and now the heroes fight each other!?!". Because there's only so many times Doom can be behind it all along.

Flickerdart

2017-01-24, 03:19 PM

Why do you think their big summer crossovers are all "and now the heroes fight each other!?!". Because there's only so many times Doom can be behind it all along.
Why do you think the heroes all fight each other? Doom was behind that all along too!

Sapphire Guard

2017-01-24, 03:22 PM

Something to do with her record being declassified, maybe? Baggage from some past mission that comes to light, something is uncovered that was meant to stay buried. This information hints at something larger that endangers some influential figure, who has to take steps to race her to it to protect themselves.

Giggling Ghast

2017-01-24, 04:56 PM

Captain America doesn't have strong villains though. That's why the Cap movies have barely used them.

The Red Skull isn't one of the most notable Marvel villains of all time?

Without looking it up, name five villains from the comic books that Black Widow has faced outside of the pages of the Avengers or the West Coast Avengers. Hell, name just one not affiliated with HIVE or AIM.

Rogar Demonblud

2017-01-24, 05:13 PM

Professor Phobos
Red Guardian
Steel Guardian
Starlight
Black Widow (Yelena Belova)

Vinyadan

2017-01-24, 05:43 PM

The good Marvel villains? Spiderman is hogging them all. Goblin(s), Venom, Octopus, that Safari Guy. Lesser: Scorpio, Kingpin.

BiblioRook

2017-01-24, 06:42 PM

Black Widow (Yelena Belova)

That one actually might not be to bad for a Black Widow solo flick. She (Natasha) finds out that someone is using both 'her' name and methods for nefarious deeds and her trust is called into question which leaves her needing to track down and deal with this new Black Widow which also opens up ample opportunity for her to have to confront her past.

Lemmy

2017-01-24, 06:50 PM

The good Marvel villains? Spiderman is hogging them all. Goblin(s), Venom, Octopus, that Safari Guy. Lesser: Scorpio, Kingpin.
X-Men have pretty badass ones too... So does the Fantastic Four.

Sadly, at least in theaters, pretty much all Marvel villains are mediocre at best.

Ranxerox

2017-01-24, 06:59 PM

Can it be from when Viper was Madame Hydra? It would be a chance for the MCU to do a character better than Fox, because Viper was a terrible lizard-woman in The Wolverine. It would put the two even after Quicksilver.

My guess is that Viper in The Wolverine was a legal compromise between Marvel and Fox. Viper was an important part of the miniseries which served as inspiration, but she is not a mutant and her association with Captain America is stronger than her association with the X-men. So I think the studios agreed to let Fox use Viper if they made her into a mutant and abandoned her Madam Hydra look.

If Marvel uses the character she will be a brunette with green highlights and lipstick and she won't be referred to as Viper. She will be called Madame Hydra or Ophelia Sarkissian instead. That is my theory anyway.

Kitten Champion

2017-01-24, 07:59 PM

My guess is that Viper in The Wolverine was a legal compromise between Marvel and Fox. Viper was an important part of the miniseries which served as inspiration, but she is not a mutant and her association with Captain America is stronger than her association with the X-men. So I think the studios agreed to let Fox use Viper if they made her into a mutant and abandoned her Madam Hydra look.

If Marvel uses the character she will be a brunette with green highlights and lipstick and she won't be referred to as Viper. She will be called Madame Hydra or Ophelia Sarkissian instead. That is my theory anyway.

I don't know the byzantine minutia of Disney and Fox's respective Marvel-related film rights but I don't see why they couldn't still refer to her as Viper. It's not like Viper was the name she was only called in her appearances in X-Men-related comics.

I'm frankly baffled by the fact that she was included in their deal at all - while she does have some overlap with the X-Men the same could be said about 95% of the Marvel Universe and the remaining 5 percent didn't last long enough or are too new to - and even more by The Wolverine's insistence on casting a terrible non-actor to fit her role.

I would call her Viper were I Disney in this theoretical Black Widow movie because it lines up somewhat thematically - if simplistically - to have both the hero and villain named after deadly poisonous creatures not really renowned for femininity, and it also frees you from directly associating her with Hydra or simply calling her her name which is somewhat underwhelming for a super spy-fi comic book movie.

GloatingSwine

2017-01-25, 03:25 AM

The Red Skull isn't one of the most notable Marvel villains of all time?

Not really, no.

He's a cartoon Nazi who hasn't really been relevant as a major Marvel villain for a couple of decades at least, despite the vague attempt to bring him back with Axis nobody really cares about him.

Part of the problem is that because he's basically a cartoon Nazi, it's hard to write a story where Red Skull thinks he's doing the right thing (any good villain believes themselves the hero) whereas that's trivial for eg. Magneto or even Doom (who believes that he should rule the world because nobody else can do it properly). Even Thanos has a motivation orthogonal to "hate this Hero personally".

Aedilred

2017-01-25, 04:13 AM

I would call her Viper were I Disney in this theoretical Black Widow movie because it lines up somewhat thematically - if simplistically - to have both the hero and villain named after deadly poisonous creatures not really renowned for femininity, and it also frees you from directly associating her with Hydra or simply calling her her name which is somewhat underwhelming for a super spy-fi comic book movie.

On the other hand, note that the MCU films have been very sparing with the use of superhero names, and tend to revert to real names or the occasional shortened nickname (e.g. "Cap") for most conversation. Some characters, especially villains, haven't had their "super name" used to refer to them on screen at all. Indeed, how many times has Black Widow herself been referred to as such? Maybe once in the four or so films she's appeared, and I'm not even sure about that. So for Disney to use real name only for the antagonist and not bother with a title would be entirely consistent with the films to date.

KillingAScarab

2017-01-25, 10:33 AM

I don't know the byzantine minutia of Disney and Fox's respective Marvel-related film rights but I don't see why they couldn't still refer to her as Viper. It's not like Viper was the name she was only called in her appearances in X-Men-related comics.

I'm frankly baffled by the fact that she was included in their deal at all - while she does have some overlap with the X-Men the same could be said about 95% of the Marvel Universe and the remaining 5 percent didn't last long enough or are too new to - and even more by The Wolverine's insistence on casting a terrible non-actor to fit her role.
My guess is that Viper in The Wolverine was a legal compromise between Marvel and Fox. Viper was an important part of the miniseries which served as inspiration...Viper wasn't in Wolverine volume 1 (http://marvel.wikia.com/wiki/Wolverine_Vol_1) at all, which made her inclusion all the more confusing. She did hang around with Silver Samurai often during the time those comic were published, and Silver Samurai is related to Clan Yashida, but let's be honest. That movie didn't have a recognizable Silver Samurai.

As for which villains are original to X-Men and which are memorable... Sabertooth was originally an Iron Fist villain who wasn't tied to Wolverine until the Mutant Massacre crossover (http://marvel.wikia.com/wiki/Mutant_Massacre). But, most of the memorable X-Men villains came from within X-Men: Magneto, Sentinels, the Juggernaut, the Brotherhood of Evil Mutants (although Mystique was a Ms. Marvel villain). Doctor Doom is probably the most recognizable Marvel villain who didn't stick around that much, mostly being involved in Arcade stories. He did save Kitty Pride's life.

I would call her Viper were I Disney in this theoretical Black Widow movie because it lines up somewhat thematically - if simplistically - to have both the hero and villain named after deadly poisonous creatures not really renowned for femininity, and it also frees you from directly associating her with Hydra or simply calling her her name which is somewhat underwhelming for a super spy-fi comic book movie.Yay! I would also put forward the possibility that Madripor could be used, although it is largely a weird mashup of Southeastern Asian countries used by Wolverine for noir stuff. However, there was a point when Viper was running the place.

The good Marvel villains? Spiderman is hogging them all. Goblin(s), Venom, Octopus, that Safari Guy. Lesser: Scorpio, Kingpin."That Safari Guy" is not the most humorous epitaph for Kraven the Hunter, I have read. That honor belongs to The Unbeatable Squirrel Girl #11. He is easy to riff on (http://www.harkavagrant.com/index.php?id=324), though.

lt_murgen

2017-01-25, 11:21 AM

Sadly, I think the best Black Widow movie was actually the Agent Carter first season....

I would love to see Black Widow, Scarlet Witch and the Wasp as a movie.

Or perhaps this:

Remember the little scientist who helped Bruce in the Incredible Hulk? Well, he's the Leader. With Hydra and SHIELD gone, and the Avengers on the skids, he seizes his opportunity. The specifics of his plan are unimportant, but the plan itself is exceptionally well developed. Black Widow has to work to undermine a person with high intelligence and telepathy. Make it a true Xanatos Gambit (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/XanatosGambit) type movie.

BiblioRook

2017-01-25, 11:21 AM

Man, I really hope Marvel can get back the rights to Doom at some point. Good or bad I just really would like to see what they would be able to do with him as done right I wouldn't be surprised to see him on the par with Loki in the first Avengers movie, and at worst it would still have to be better then... whatever Fox is doing with him. But in any case that's a bit of a digression as whatever Doom may be a potential villain for a solo Black Widow flick he is not.

I would love to see Black Widow, Scarlet Witch and the Wasp as a movie.

Like an A-Force movie?

...never mind the fact that none of the women you just mentioned are actually even in A-Force...
...or even that none of the actual members of A-Force have so much as appeared in the MCU so far...
...You know what? I'm not even sure why I brought it up.

Anteros

2017-01-25, 12:24 PM

X-Men have pretty badass ones too... So does the Fantastic Four.

Sadly, at least in theaters, pretty much all Marvel villains are mediocre at best.

Mostly just Doom and Magneto respectively. Their other major villains are all a little silly in my opinion.

Traab

2017-01-25, 03:56 PM

Mostly just Doom and Magneto respectively. Their other major villains are all a little silly in my opinion.

Sinister, apocalypse, shadow king, mojo, omega red, dark phoenix, the hellfire club can be rebuilt easy enough, there are a lot of potential bad guys, lets not even consider going back to overt racism angle with the Friends of Humanity and the Graydon Creed angle. Striker was already used so we cant go the Purifier route unfortunately. But the human son of mystique and sabertooth? You cant tell me that doesnt scream awesome backstory and drama.

As for the Four, while few are as well known among those who arent direct fans, they have a lot of potential. Annihilus, Blastaar, Diablo (an alchemist, not the lord of terror) you have the kree and the skrulls for alien battles, once again, the list is a lot longer than dr doom, galactus, and the mole man. Honestly, its like making the majority of superman fights about freaking lex or batman about the joker. They are the most iconic bad guys, yes. But there are so many other options that would work better than remake #97685 of the 4 fighting doom again.

Darth Ultron

2017-01-25, 07:37 PM

Sadly, I think the best Black Widow movie was actually the Agent Carter first season....

A lot of Marvel villains just don't get much use in good ways. The Red Guardian shows up from time to time and says ''I'm a Captain America copy, neyt?"

The ''Russian sleeper agent goes to start World War Three'' is a bit obvious....but might work.

But I think a good plot might be between CA:Winter Soldier and Iron Man 3. So during that data dump online, some of the stuff was Iron Man data(we know SHIELD has repuslor technology). And the Russians start their own ''iron man'' program (aka The Crimson Dynamo). Natasha wants to both stop the Russians from using the data, and protect Tony's stuff. She does it on her own without asking for help from the other Avengers. Toss in the Red Guardian(and ex of Black Widow) and maybe the (Soviet) Super Soldiers, though they would need to be ''enhanced'' or ''Inhumans'' and not ''mutants''. And you have a movie.

Though, I don't think Disney can ever make a good Black Widow movie as they are locked into the kids stuff....maybe they could rent the character to Sony for a hardcore Rated R movie....

Rogar Demonblud

2017-01-25, 10:50 PM

We already had Crimson Dynamo in Iron Man 2. Perhaps you're thinking of Titanium Man?

Which just proves Nat really has no villains of her own, outside of the Red Room. Which is why I still support a prequel to fill in some of her back story (and some of Hawkeye's, maybe).

Traab

2017-01-25, 11:09 PM

But the thing is, she doesnt NEED a rogues gallery of her own. Unless we are doing her origin, she is an agent of SHIELD, pretty much the best they have. And SHIELD is dealing with pretty much every threat in the marvel universe to one extent or another. The bad guy doesnt have to be some ultra well known name to draw in an audience, we already have the black widow for that. Thats why I was pushing for her doing a bond style film, because thats the kind of character she is. She is equally capable of infiltration, seduction, and shooting her way out as any 00 agent you care to mention. She doesnt have to punch galactus in the balls, she can have her big movie be all about locating, infiltrating and sabotaging a AIM or HYDRA research facility.

Have Samuel L Fury tell her they received word that somewhere in the ozarks a remnant of HYDRA is trying to build their own tesseract device, her mission is to locate it, steal every bit of information they have, and blow it all sky high. Bonus points if she can make it look like an experiment backfired so they will be less likely to try again. Show off some cool gadgets, let widow do her sneaky thing, maybe seduce a pair of hydra agents by the name of Abel and Ivan Toplease, and give us a big boom at the end as the facility goes up in blue smoke. End it with a snappy one liner when fury asks where she is, "Sorry, im in the middle of something here" and instant blockbuster.

t209

2017-01-25, 11:14 PM

That is both hilarious and unfortunately probably a bit on the nose.
Well, Marvel do have Vision and Scarlet Witch for comic version.
That is until John Byrne and later Bendis decided to ruin that storyline.

2Comic2Furious

2017-01-25, 11:18 PM

It gets even more bewildering about the resistance to the idea given this outcome for Lucy (reported budget $40 million). She's also the lead here but it's not an established character or franchise as well as going some very weird places. You'd think a more conventional (read less trippy) story with a known character could do at least comparably well.

Total Lifetime Grosses
Domestic: $126,663,600
***27.3%

Foreign: $336,696,463
***72.7%

Worldwide: $463,360,063

I mean, look at doing it like Deadpool and aim to keep the cost down as much as possible but still having a script and overall story arc that's likely to appeal to people (I know these things aren't guaranteed, it's at least as much an art as a science but you can give yourself at least a fair chance of success with these things and it will have some inbuilt advantages over a brand new property ...)

Anteros

2017-01-26, 04:30 AM

Sinister, apocalypse, shadow king, mojo, omega red, dark phoenix, the hellfire club can be rebuilt easy enough, there are a lot of potential bad guys, lets not even consider going back to overt racism angle with the Friends of Humanity and the Graydon Creed angle. Striker was already used so we cant go the Purifier route unfortunately. But the human son of mystique and sabertooth? You cant tell me that doesnt scream awesome backstory and drama.

As for the Four, while few are as well known among those who arent direct fans, they have a lot of potential. Annihilus, Blastaar, Diablo (an alchemist, not the lord of terror) you have the kree and the skrulls for alien battles, once again, the list is a lot longer than dr doom, galactus, and the mole man. Honestly, its like making the majority of superman fights about freaking lex or batman about the joker. They are the most iconic bad guys, yes. But there are so many other options that would work better than remake #97685 of the 4 fighting doom again.

You're talking about villains you'd enjoy seeing, and that's fine. A live action movie has to have a wider appeal though. I don't even recognize most of the names you just spouted out, and I actually follow comics. Most people are going to be even more lost than me.

Of the ones I do recognize, Sinister is a big purple guy with feathers and a diamond on his head, Apocalypse is another big purple goofy looking guy, Mojo is a blob of fat who most audience members won't recognize, and Omega Red looks like something out of an 80s angst catalog. You'd have to rework them from the ground up to get me to take them seriously.

Also, I am just so sick of the Phoenix subplot. Just let the Cyclops and Jean be happy. Or don't, but at least stop rehashing this story over and over.

But the thing is, she doesnt NEED a rogues gallery of her own. Unless we are doing her origin, she is an agent of SHIELD, pretty much the best they have. And SHIELD is dealing with pretty much every threat in the marvel universe to one extent or another. The bad guy doesnt have to be some ultra well known name to draw in an audience, we already have the black widow for that. Thats why I was pushing for her doing a bond style film, because thats the kind of character she is. She is equally capable of infiltration, seduction, and shooting her way out as any 00 agent you care to mention. She doesnt have to punch galactus in the balls, she can have her big movie be all about locating, infiltrating and sabotaging a AIM or HYDRA research facility.

Have Samuel L Fury tell her they received word that somewhere in the ozarks a remnant of HYDRA is trying to build their own tesseract device, her mission is to locate it, steal every bit of information they have, and blow it all sky high. Bonus points if she can make it look like an experiment backfired so they will be less likely to try again. Show off some cool gadgets, let widow do her sneaky thing, maybe seduce a pair of hydra agents by the name of Abel and Ivan Toplease, and give us a big boom at the end as the facility goes up in blue smoke. End it with a snappy one liner when fury asks where she is, "Sorry, im in the middle of something here" and instant blockbuster.

Honestly, and I don't mean any offense by this, but that sounds pretty boring. It would be fine for a stand-alone film or as part of the Bourne or Bond series, but not for a super hero. If you look at the MCU they're continually raising the stakes with bigger events and world shattering fights in every movie. People would go into it with this expectation and come out disappointed. It's a big step backwards from the direction they're building their cinematic universe in.

If you want this movie to fit thematically with the others you'd have to raise the stakes dramatically, and I'm not sure Black Widow (or any ground level MCU hero) can carry that kind of movie. Unfortunately, I think Natasha and Clint are both stuck in supporting character land forever.

Hopeless

2017-01-26, 05:16 AM

Remember that child who stabbed one of the Howling Commandos?
What if she was a young Natasha before she was experimented on like Bucky was so she was actually placed in suspended animation until one day with Hawkeye's help she escaped?

Why only one movie where you could give Agent Carter the send off it deserves, make it about a Black Widow whose accidentally freed from her superiors control and eventually helped by Hawkeye leading to her earning her place as a member of SHIELD prior to the Iron Man 2 movie?

Kitten Champion

2017-01-26, 06:53 AM

Honestly, and I don't mean any offense by this, but that sounds pretty boring. It would be fine for a stand-alone film or as part of the Bourne or Bond series, but not for a super hero. If you look at the MCU they're continually raising the stakes with bigger events and world shattering fights in every movie. People would go into it with this expectation and come out disappointed. It's a big step backwards from the direction they're building their cinematic universe in.

If you want this movie to fit thematically with the others you'd have to raise the stakes dramatically, and I'm not sure Black Widow (or any ground level MCU hero) can carry that kind of movie. Unfortunately, I think Natasha and Clint are both stuck in supporting character land forever.

I disagree, at least with regards to the stakes and expectations. I'm not going to go into Spider-Man: Homecoming assuming it's going to have a global super-threat and a fight on par with the Avengers movies, because that's not what its establishing itself to be. Whereas Thor: Ragnarok is implicitly suggesting mythic grandeur and would be deeply disappointing if they made it about Thor's love life and wacky antics as an Asgardian prince.

Just like with the comics the tone, style, and scope of the story should match what works with the titular characters creating a refreshing diversity of sub-genre within a meta-franchise. It's necessary for it not to be constantly building up, I would go so far to say.

Anteros

2017-01-26, 07:55 AM

I disagree, at least with regards to the stakes and expectations. I'm not going to go into Spider-Man: Homecoming assuming it's going to have a global super-threat and a fight on par with the Avengers movies, because that's not what its establishing itself to be. Whereas Thor: Ragnarok is implicitly suggesting mythic grandeur and would be deeply disappointing if they made it about Thor's love life and wacky antics as an Asgardian prince.

Just like with the comics the tone, style, and scope of the story should match what works with the titular characters creating a refreshing diversity of sub-genre within a meta-franchise. It's necessary for it not to be constantly building up, I would go so far to say.

That's true enough, and it's a good point. However, Spidey is pretty well established in the public mind already outside of these types of scenarios. I think that makes a big difference when it comes to setting expectations, because people already know exactly what to expect from a Spiderman movie.

Kitten Champion

2017-01-26, 09:19 AM

That's true enough, and it's a good point. However, Spidey is pretty well established in the public mind already outside of these types of scenarios. I think that makes a big difference when it comes to setting expectations, because people already know exactly what to expect from a Spiderman movie.

Yeah, but that's not a problem so much for Hawkeye or Black Widow anymore. You got a taste of the sort of things to expect from a Black Widow movie through her supporting roles. Particularly in the Widow-heavy Winter Soldier movie which is mostly her sort of setting and tone.

On a broader level, while Black Widow's only gotten much material to work with as a solo character in the last eight years or so -- still, she has had some excellent writing in that time. Particularly good if you wanted to go the Netflix route, though that's obviously impossible here.

Basically, I think a Black Widow movie is completely workable and would be profitable... but would it be more advantageous to do it over another potential project? I would say no at this point. Johansson, Renner, and Ruffalo make great supporting characters and their character's stories can be built up within that role. I'd rather they use their resources to explore more of the universe with the movies.

Haruspex_Pariah

2017-01-26, 10:05 AM

If they're going to have a Black Widow solo movie, they better make sure she has no romantic interests. Else the internets get set ablaze again.

But in a universe of possibilities I don't see why it can't be done. Deadpool got a movie after all.

KillingAScarab

2017-01-26, 10:08 AM

Have Samuel L Fury tell her they received word that somewhere in the ozarks a remnant of HYDRA is trying to build their own tesseract device, her mission is to locate it, steal every bit of information they have, and blow it all sky high. Bonus points if she can make it look like an experiment backfired so they will be less likely to try again. Show off some cool gadgets, let widow do her sneaky thing, maybe seduce a pair of hydra agents by the name of Abel and Ivan Toplease, and give us a big boom at the end as the facility goes up in blue smoke. End it with a snappy one liner when fury asks where she is, "Sorry, im in the middle of something here" and instant blockbuster.I would personally like to see this in downstate New York so Elsie Carson can be involved. She isn't who I want to see as the ultimate villain, far from it. Her entire deal is that she works for one of the branches of Hydra which doesn't constantly fight the super hero population. Also, (according to Chris Sims on episode 26 (http://www.xplainthexmen.com/2014/10/26-the-other-team-america-featuring-chris-sims/) of the X-Plain the X-Men podcast, 41 minutes in) she worked for them because they were an employer who offered an affordable health care plan.

If they're going to have a Black Widow solo movie, they better make sure she has no romantic interests. Else the internets get set ablaze again.Because, she should be waiting around for Hulk to show up again? He pretty clearly ended that when he went into self-imposed exile.

Rogar Demonblud

2017-01-26, 11:21 AM

Haruspex_Pariah

2017-01-26, 11:36 AM

Because, she should be waiting around for Hulk to show up again? He pretty clearly ended that when he went into self-imposed exile.

Heavens no. I probably should have made myself clearer. Even suggesting that she's waiting for Hulk (or any man) will cause backlash. Just ask Whedon post-Age of Ultron. Clearly there were enough angry netizens who believed that their relationship (such as it was) diminished her character somehow. Giving her a new love interest, whether in a hypothetical solo movie or even the next Avengers movie might trigger the same response.

Giggling Ghast

2017-01-26, 11:40 AM

Professor Phobos
Red Guardian
Steel Guardian
Starlight
Black Widow (Yelena Belova)

That's quite the collection of D-listers. Nonetheless, you met my challenge.

Friv

2017-01-26, 11:50 AM

Heavens no. I probably should have made myself clearer. Even suggesting that she's waiting for Hulk (or any man) will cause backlash. Just ask Whedon post-Age of Ultron. Clearly there were enough angry netizens who believed that their relationship (such as it was) diminished her character somehow. Giving her a new love interest, whether in a hypothetical solo movie or even the next Avengers movie might trigger the same response.

...whaaaaat?

The fan backlash wasn't that Natasha and Bruce were in a relationship, it was over her "I can't have children, therefore I am a monster just like you" speech.

Haruspex_Pariah

2017-01-26, 12:36 PM

...whaaaaat?

The fan backlash wasn't that Natasha and Bruce were in a relationship, it was over her "I can't have children, therefore I am a monster just like you" speech.

:smallconfused:

After some searching, that does appear to be a sore point with people.

They sterilize you. It's efficient. One less thing to worry about. The one thing that might matter more than a mission. Makes everything easier. Even killing. You still think you're the only monster on the team?

I dunno, seems to me she sees herself as a monster because of all the bad things (including killing) she did as a spy/assassin and not directly because of her inability to have kids.

And it seems like Whedon caught flak for a lot of things. The thing you mentioned, her being a damsel, her being "ruined" somehow, etc. I am quite sure that "being Hulk's girlfriend" was one of the points on that long and questionable list.

So yeah, I was mistaken in singling that one point out.

EDIT: I had to look up the various tweets of people being mad at Whedon over this. It hurt my soul to do so. Why can't we just disapprove and disagree without making death threats and challenging people to irl fights.

Rogar Demonblud

2017-01-26, 03:48 PM

Because we're humans.

GloatingSwine

2017-01-26, 03:57 PM

:smallconfused:

After some searching, that does appear to be a sore point with people.

They sterilize you. It's efficient. One less thing to worry about. The one thing that might matter more than a mission. Makes everything easier. Even killing. You still think you're the only monster on the team?

I dunno, seems to me she sees herself as a monster because of all the bad things (including killing) she did as a spy/assassin and not directly because of her inability to have kids.

I think the problem was that the film communicated that quite badly. Because the only thing she actually references as being changed about her was that she was sterilised it made it sound like that was the root cause of the rest of the "I'm also a monster" thing.

Flickerdart

2017-01-26, 04:55 PM

Because we're humans.

Correct, we definitely are humans. (https://www.reddit.com/r/totallynotrobots/)

Aotrs Commander

2017-01-26, 06:04 PM

Because we're humans.

Define "we..."

Haruspex_Pariah

2017-01-26, 06:20 PM

Yeah I'm seeing how that works. The sterilisation point could have been discarded entirely if they wanted to make it purely about her past deeds.

Also my research leads me to believe people had expected more for Black Widow's character and were disappointed with what AOU delivered.

Vinyadan

2017-01-26, 06:48 PM

Why can't we just disapprove and disagree without making death threats and challenging people to irl fights.

Because we're humans.

Because Hulk Smash.

lord_khaine

2017-01-26, 06:57 PM

I honestly think Weedon did an awesome job with his portrayal of BW. She did feel like she had the deepest and most intimately engaging story.

huttj509

2017-01-26, 07:02 PM

I think the problem was that the film communicated that quite badly. Because the only thing she actually references as being changed about her was that she was sterilised it made it sound like that was the root cause of the rest of the "I'm also a monster" thing.

Agreed, especially superimposed over the ballet lessons...I was waiting for the flashback to include, you know, the part where the kids were forced to fight and kill each other to weed out empathy for their friends and train them into being killers. Leaving the words the same, but emphasizing to the viewer that "yeah, that's not why she considers herself a monster, but it's icing on the traumacake, and a reminder of the things she's done and what she was molded to do."

Traab

2017-01-26, 08:16 PM

You're talking about villains you'd enjoy seeing, and that's fine. A live action movie has to have a wider appeal though. I don't even recognize most of the names you just spouted out, and I actually follow comics. Most people are going to be even more lost than me.

Of the ones I do recognize, Sinister is a big purple guy with feathers and a diamond on his head, Apocalypse is another big purple goofy looking guy, Mojo is a blob of fat who most audience members won't recognize, and Omega Red looks like something out of an 80s angst catalog. You'd have to rework them from the ground up to get me to take them seriously.

Also, I am just so sick of the Phoenix subplot. Just let the Cyclops and Jean be happy. Or don't, but at least stop rehashing this story over and over.

Honestly, and I don't mean any offense by this, but that sounds pretty boring. It would be fine for a stand-alone film or as part of the Bourne or Bond series, but not for a super hero. If you look at the MCU they're continually raising the stakes with bigger events and world shattering fights in every movie. People would go into it with this expectation and come out disappointed. It's a big step backwards from the direction they're building their cinematic universe in.

If you want this movie to fit thematically with the others you'd have to raise the stakes dramatically, and I'm not sure Black Widow (or any ground level MCU hero) can carry that kind of movie. Unfortunately, I think Natasha and Clint are both stuck in supporting character land forever.

While I admit to the fantastic four only knowing a bit about the specific named bad guys (not counting the kree and skrulls, anyone with any knowledge of the comics should be aware of them) The xmen one at least were pretty popular, mojo is this alien tv executive (no, seriously) who does things like kidnap super powered people from earth and make them fight to the death on his various reality shows (NO, SERIOUSLY) Oh, and he looks like http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/4/44/Mojo_X-Men_ep-24.jpg Yep, big greenish blobby dude with a deceptively quick and powerful set of mechanical legs.

Shadow King is the guy who crippled xavier in at least one of the various xmen continuities. He is this incredibly powerful psychic being thats been around very a very long time. Omega red is a russian super soldier type of bad guy, big enemy of wolverine at least, though I think he and colossus have clashed a few times. He has these doc ock style tentacle weapons he can use which are pretty powerful. As for sinister, dude wears black, not purple. Heh, he is one of those behind the scenes mystery big bads, always manipulating events for his mysterious evil goals. I think he wanted to create the perfect mutant or some such thing. Is obsessed with jean and scott having a kid.

KillingAScarab

2017-01-26, 10:57 PM

EDIT: I had to look up the various tweets of people being mad at Whedon over this. It hurt my soul to do so. Why can't we just disapprove and disagree without making death threats and challenging people to irl fights.If it helps, I'm only not on speaking terms with Joss Whedon because of Astonishing X-Men and "Do you know what happens to a toad when it's struck by lightining?" Well, that and we are total strangers to each other. I like his Avengers movies.

Kitten Champion

2017-01-26, 11:37 PM

While I admit to the fantastic four only knowing a bit about the specific named bad guys (not counting the kree and skrulls, anyone with any knowledge of the comics should be aware of them) The xmen one at least were pretty popular, mojo is this alien tv executive (no, seriously) who does things like kidnap super powered people from earth and make them fight to the death on his various reality shows (NO, SERIOUSLY) Oh, and he looks like http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/4/44/Mojo_X-Men_ep-24.jpg Yep, big greenish blobby dude with a deceptively quick and powerful set of mechanical legs.

It's odd how much the Mojoverse story-line seems like pretty dated commentary on the 2000's reality show surge for something written in the late 1980's. Granted that critique of mass media as subtle propaganda in dystopian fiction wasn't especially new then, but Nocenti put more due consideration into her overall work than simply looking at Death Race 2000 or The Running Man and saying "I'll just do that".

Though, above all I would love to see a live-action Mojo done with practical effects. It's a shame Fox would never even consider it. You'd probably get the one from the Ultimate Universe if they did anything.

KillingAScarab

2017-01-27, 09:00 AM

It's odd how much the Mojoverse story-line seems like pretty dated commentary on the 2000's reality show surge for something written in the late 1980's. Granted that critique of mass media as subtle propaganda in dystopian fiction wasn't especially new then, but Nocenti put more due consideration into her overall work than simply looking at Death Race 2000 or The Running Man and saying "I'll just do that".

Though, above all I would love to see a live-action Mojo done with practical effects. It's a shame Fox would never even consider it. You'd probably get the one from the Ultimate Universe if they did anything."Subtle" and "Mojo" are an odd combination. There was an annual where he held up a pig's head while quoting Porky Pig. But, Ann Nocenti's criticism of Western media with the Mojoverse was way more subtle than her Marvel Comics Presents story where Colossus fought the Cold Warriors.

Kyberwulf

2017-01-27, 12:26 PM

Darth Ultron

2017-01-27, 01:33 PM

I know, Let's kill off Natasha and replace her with a Black/asian character. Since Natasha has already been in a couple movies, and we seen her pretty much be superpowered. We can replace her with a NEW black widow.

Well, to be very Disney poloticaly correct she would need to be a part Asian, part African-American, Part Latino....Absolutely no part of her white and or European. and she would need to have an alternative, not classical beauty look but a more ''like she just walked off a super cool hip-hop music video'' look. And she would have to be any orientation, except straight.

And to be PC they would need to change ''black widow'' to something more like ''Gray Bug''. And drop the whole ''suggestion'' that she ''holds hands with guys and then kills them'', and make it more like ''she talks people into giving up with her speech and radical ideas.''

Then the Gray Bug could have a story where like a bad Russian super villain gets elected president...like the Red Octokber Skull and GB has to go to Russia and find the disk of evidence.

Rogar Demonblud

2017-01-27, 06:07 PM

The Glyphstone

2017-01-27, 06:43 PM

I know you're just snarking at Disney's diversification campaign, but there's no inherent reason why the Red Room program wouldn't have non-Russian graduates. I'm sure they could find plenty of orphans in Cuba, Angola, Somalia, Egypt, Afghanistan, India, Argentina, Viet Nam, Indonesia...

They might even specifically seek them out (or even create them). Looking like the locals is a valuable asset for an infiltration specialist.

lord_khaine

2017-01-27, 06:49 PM

I know you're just snarking at Disney's diversification campaign, but there's no inherent reason why the Red Room program wouldn't have non-Russian graduates. I'm sure they could find plenty of orphans in Cuba, Angola, Somalia, Egypt, Afghanistan, India, Argentina, Viet Nam, Indonesia...

Why limit to those places? If you want an orphan somewhere you can create them though the red room program.

And absolutely yes. If i were the sort of monster to come up with the red room in the first place. Then i would also want graduates of every possible skin tone.

t209

2017-01-27, 09:19 PM

Why limit to those places? If you want an orphan somewhere you can create them though the red room program.

And absolutely yes. If i were the sort of monster to come up with the red room in the first place. Then i would also want graduates of every possible skin tone.
Ahhh, yes.
Here is one (http://marvel.wikia.com/wiki/Nadia_Pym_(Earth-616)).

Rogar Demonblud

2017-01-27, 10:21 PM

Why limit to those places?

Ties to the Soviet Union and/or bloody conflicts making lots of kids orphans. Course, that's also ignoring all of the different ethnicities inside the Union.

BiblioRook

2017-01-28, 04:23 AM

Ahhh, yes.
Here is one (http://marvel.wikia.com/wiki/Nadia_Pym_(Earth-616)).

Oddly enough despite all she's been through (or maybe even in defiance of what she's been through) Nadia's story is rather excessively cheerful for someone having gone through something like the Red Room.

Kyberwulf

2017-01-28, 11:00 AM

Oh, I know. Let's make it, so that Black Widow dies. Before the events of the Civil war, an orphan was chosen, this kid can be a rescued black survivor child soldier from Africa. She is trained to be the perfect killing machine. All Hanna style. The whole movie will be about how she is sent on her first mission. To Kill.... T'challa. Before he can become the new king, and the new Black Panther. Having failed her mission through no fault of her own, Some events happen. I am thinking that the new Black Widow ends up killing Natasha in some epic hand to had combat. Thus proving her superiority to the white... er previous hero, some life lessons are learned. T'challa gives her the Mantle of Black Widow in honor of the previous one. It can be a prequel sequel origin story passing of the torch thing.

IN honor of all things being equal. meaning that you can just change one aspect of the character, ie Thor...and it will remain the same. The actor playing black Black widow will be a Transgender white dude. Seeing how Transgender white dudes aren't represented in the media the same as White women are.