How many Astral Constructs can a psionic player summon?

[alex1g]

How many Astral Constructs can a psionic player summon?

[icefractal]

How many Astral Constructs can a psionic player summon?
As many as they can spend the actions/points for, just like a Cleric, Druid, Sorcerer, or Wizard.

Complete Psionic has a changed version that can only exist one at a time, but:
A) That's an optional book.
B) That change is stupid and inconsistent with how every other summoning-capable class works.

[Inevitability]

Complete Psionic has a changed version that can only exist one at a time, but:
A) That's an optional book.
B) That change is stupid and inconsistent with how every other summoning-capable class works.

Also, following that rule means using Complete Psionic, which is enough reason not to already.

[Bohandas]

Complete Psionic has a changed version that can only exist one at a time, but:
A) That's an optional book.
B) That change is stupid and inconsistent with how every other summoning-capable class works.

Yeah, wtf was up with that?

[alex1g]

I think this is the correct as per rules answer.

There is nothing in either book that definitively says you have to use Complete Psionic because this is stated in the FAQ that tells us to interpret source rules to mean that "Unless stated otherwise, any time that a rule appears in two different sourcebooks (other than the PH, DMG, and MM), the most current sourcebook is considered correct and all previous sources are superseded." Thus, Complete Psionic's printing of options like astral construct is the "correct" printing. Many tables ignore Complete Psionic nerfs, however. – Powerdork Apr 23 '15 at 7:39

[Crake]

There is one complete psionic nerf I abide by, and that's the energy missile nerf, or more likely, the energy missile errata. +1 DC per power point is just crazy.

[Kuu Lightwing]

CPsi also has some good powers introduced, too... Dimension Hop? Damp Power? Inconstant Location?

[Particle_Man]

If your DM ignores the limit in Complete Psionic, then there is no limit per se (although you eventually run out of power points).

If your DM uses Complete Psionic and enforces that rule, then only one at a time (except that there is a prestige class in Complete Psionic called Ectopic Adept that lets you do two at a time).

So, ask your DM what rules they use, I guess.

If you are limited to one at a time you might as well go for Wilder if you are 6th level or higher. Go big or go home, right? :smallsmile:

[Segev]

As far as I can tell, the Complete Psionic need to Astral Projection is there only to justify the PrC that lets you get more of them at once. It seems to me to be there to make a bad PrC seem like it has a worthwhile class feature.

It is like saying longs words are now two handed weapons and introducing a PrC that lets you wield one one-handed.

[Bohandas]

As far as I can tell, the Complete Psionic need to Astral Projection is there only to justify the PrC that lets you get more of them at once. It seems to me to be there to make a bad PrC seem like it has a worthwhile class feature.

It is like saying longs words are now two handed weapons and introducing a PrC that lets you wield one one-handed.

That actually works better parsed wrong like that

[Big Fau]

Yeah, wtf was up with that?

Supposedly it was because of the Living Greyhawk Campaign running into an issue with Astral Construct during a convention.

[Nifft]

Supposedly it was because of the Living Greyhawk Campaign running into an issue with Astral Construct during a convention.

Now I want to go back in time and show them what a Druid can do.

[Doctor Awkward]

There is one complete psionic nerf I abide by, and that's the energy missile nerf, or more likely, the energy missile errata. +1 DC per power point is just crazy.

Crazy is strictly a matter of perspective.

Near as I can recall, when Complete Psionic was release it made the following changes and clarifications:

Clarification #1: When a soulknife creates two shortswords and wants to charge them both with Psychic Strike, it requires a separate action for each blade.
Clarification #2: Manifesting a power from a stone using your own power points flushes the stone
Clarification #3: Metacreativity powers that deal damage described as slashing, piercing, or bludgeoning are now subject to damage reduction.

Alteration #1: You can only have one Astral Construct in existence at a time.
Alteration #2: Dimension Door had additional augments added, including two negative cost augments for a diminished effect
Alteration #3: Hostile Empathic Transfer received a complete rewrite resulting in a similar (but far weaker) effect, and a definitive ruling on the multi-target augment
Alteration #4: The DC for Energy Missile was made to scale the same as other energy powers
Alteration #5: Energy Stun received the same treatment as Energy Missile

A lot of people saw these changes as arbitrary at best, and wholly unnecessary at worst, and that's why even when people use material from the book the rules changes are ignored. In particular, the sidebar on metacreativity and damage reduction directly contradicts not only all the rules on magic, but also the official 3.5 psionics FAQ from the Sage.


My personal opinions?

C1: Whatever. When the was last time you ever heard someone complain about soulknife being overpowered?
C2: It's... reasonable. Obviously, I prefer the power stone loop. It could only be done out of combat anyway.
C3: Just dumb, and hugely indicative of an author simply not liking psionics.

A1: Terrible. It wasn't overpowered to begin with, and, as previously noted, you could argue it was only made a rule to justify the creation of a PrC that breaks it.
A2: For all the rest of the hate the book gets, this is actually a nice improvement.
A3: Whatever. The update is quicker and easier. The original was complicated, but still playable. You could almost consider them two different powers.
A4: Terrible. Also sticks out as someone not wanting psionics to have something nice.
A5: Equally terrible. Why should psionics have something really nice?

[Particle_Man]

Since complete psionic did not make it into the OGL but expanded psionic handbook did, this might be one of the few times people prefer the OGL version of something to that, plus the stuff in the expansion books. :smallsmile:

[Crake]

A4: Terrible. Also sticks out as someone not wanting psionics to have something nice.
A5: Equally terrible. Why should psionics have something really nice?

If you think psionics doesn't have nice things, I urge you to look at the material again. As for the DCs scaling with what is effectively caster level, if you can't see how that goes against practically every convention set by the d20 system, then I can't really say much for you.

[icefractal]

I do use the Energy Stun / Energy Missile DC change. There's not really a reason for it to scale differently than every other DC, and while it's just a nice perk at the lower levels, it eventually becomes problematic. Also, it makes all the other energy powers kind of obsolete.

In Pathfinder, you'd be using it anyway, as the DSP psionics have that change incorporated.

Also, I think CompPsi has some good stuff in it, wheat among the chaff - just take it all with a grain of salt and don't automatically add the whole thing.

[Particle_Man]

It is weird that astral construct got the nerf but Summon Monster X and Summon Nature's Ally X did not. Surely the same arguments would apply (either all of them should be nerfed or none of them).

[Psyren]

Also, following that rule means using Complete Psionic, which is enough reason not to already.

Throwing out the whole book means tossing very good things like Practiced Manifester, Linked Power, Metapower, Psionic Mastery, the Synad race and a bunch of useful new powers. I'd suggest instead simply ignoring that rule, like DSP did.

[Inevitability]

Throwing out the whole book means tossing very good things like Practiced Manifester, Linked Power, Metapower, Psionic Mastery, the Synad race and a bunch of useful new powers. I'd suggest instead simply ignoring that rule, like DSP did.

I was exaggerating. Ignoring the rule is indeed best.

[Telok]

Throwing out the whole book means tossing very good things like Practiced Manifester, Linked Power, Metapower, Psionic Mastery, the Synad race and a bunch of useful new powers. I'd suggest instead simply ignoring that rule, like DSP did.

What my group does is treat CompPsi like the Dragon mag and online stuff. Ask before using and the DM gets to check for balance before allowing. So we have Practised Manifester and a couple of other odds, ends, and powers. But toys like Linked Power and those stupid-abusable web tattoos (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20031225a)* aren't generally in play. Oddly if it was on some PsiWar builds Linked Power might get approved, but that's because we play pretty nice. Our T1 casters (and manifesters) are played mid-op and when we feel like being a bit lazy, while we allow more rules shenanigans with the warrior types.

*We have three computer professionals in our group. Abusing this would be so easy.

[Psyren]

Our group allows Linked Power, but we nerfed it - both powers have to be a standard action or less manifesting time, and it can't be combined with any powers (like Synchronicity, Temporal Acceleration or Schism) that grant additional actions. That plus the ML rule keeps it useful but in check for the most part.

[Zombimode]

Clarification #3: Metacreativity powers that deal damage described as slashing, piercing, or bludgeoning are now subject to damage reduction.

[...]

In particular, the sidebar on metacreativity and damage reduction directly contradicts not only all the rules on magic, but also the official 3.5 psionics FAQ from the Sage.

[...]

C3: Just dumb, and hugely indicative of an author simply not liking psionics.


Uhm, why WOULDN'T it be subject to DR? This is how it works for other spells/effects that deal physical damage like Splinterbolt. Why should psionic powers be treated differently?

[Zanos]

Uhm, why WOULDN'T it be subject to DR? This is how it works for other spells/effects that deal physical damage like Splinterbolt. Why should psionic powers be treated differently?

The creature takes normal damage from energy attacks (even nonmagical ones), spells, spell-like abilities, and supernatural abilities. A certain kind of weapon can sometimes damage the creature normally, as noted below.
Unless the spell specifically calls out that DR applies, spells automatically bypass DR.

[Zombimode]

Unless the spell specifically calls out that DR applies, spells automatically bypass DR.

Ok.
But ARE there any spells that deal slashing/piercing/bludgeoning damaged that is NOT subject to DR?

[Zanos]

I know there's quite a few. Off the top off my head, ice storm, in core.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Unless the spell specifically calls out that DR applies, spells automatically bypass DR.

Citation, please? I don't remember ever seeing that rule. My understanding was that DR mitigates any physical damage and is bypassed by energy and untyped damages.

[Zanos]

Williams, Skip, Jonathan Tweet, and Monte Cook. Dungeons & Dragons Monster Manual: Core Rulebook III V.3.5. Renton, WA: Wizards of the Coast, 2003. 307. Print.
MM 307 is where that quote is from, also on the SRD.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Williams, Skip, Jonathan Tweet, and Monte Cook. Dungeons & Dragons Monster Manual: Core Rulebook III V.3.5. Renton, WA: Wizards of the Coast, 2003. 307. Print.
MM 307 is where that quote is from, also on the SRD.

The white print alone would've sufficed. :smallamused:

Kind of a dumb rule. I shall now actively ignore it, rather than be ignorant of it, in my own games.

[Jack_Simth]

What my group does is treat CompPsi like the Dragon mag and online stuff. Ask before using and the DM gets to check for balance before allowing. So we have Practised Manifester and a couple of other odds, ends, and powers. But toys like Linked Power and those stupid-abusable web tattoos (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20031225a)* aren't generally in play. Oddly if it was on some PsiWar builds Linked Power might get approved, but that's because we play pretty nice. Our T1 casters (and manifesters) are played mid-op and when we feel like being a bit lazy, while we allow more rules shenanigans with the warrior types.

*We have three computer professionals in our group. Abusing this would be so easy.
Most of the abuse with that will just be 'normal' action economy abuse - and you're either going to be burning wealth quickly to do it, or you're going to be attaching capacitors and waiting a while for them to charge up between uses.

OK, yes, there is the whole "attach a capacitor to an XP-costing power" route to cut out some of the XP costs of manifesting (I can see someone making a ML 15 Incarnate tattoo with 2,000 xp, putting a capacitor on that, then Incarnating a power every 15 days from stones until you've gone through all the useful ones, for instance).

What sorts of abuses are you envisioning?

[Zanos]

The white print alone would've sufficed. :smallamused:

Kind of a dumb rule. I shall now actively ignore it, rather than be ignorant of it, in my own games.
Ah, then I couldn't have been a smartass.

And yeah, I'm reasonably sure that most of the writers were ignorant of it when they wrote spells that dealt those damage types. Fairly certain they didn't intend for them to just do practically irresistible damage.

[Zombimode]

The white print alone would've sufficed. :smallamused:

Kind of a dumb rule. I shall now actively ignore it, rather than be ignorant of it, in my own games.

Same here :smallcool:

[Psyren]

DSP Psionics has the following sidebar that I recommend in lieu of the CPsi one:


Damage Reduction and Powers

Just like spells, psionic powers and psi-like abilities are not subject to damage reduction.

However, official rulings have been made that spells that deal a type of physical damage (bludgeoning, piercing, and slashing) are subject to damage reduction for the damage dealt of a physical type.

It is important for game balance reasons that in either situation, that the rule be applied uniformly: either spells and powers that deal damage of a physical type are affected by damage reduction, or spells and powers that deal damage of a physical type are not affected by damage reduction. It should not be applied to one and not the other.

Powers affected by this ruling include crystal shard, hail of crystals, and swarm of crystals.

Spells affected by this ruling include ice storm and storm of vengeance.

This is for Pathfinder obviously but it works fine in 3.5. too.

[Telok]

Most of the abuse with that will just be 'normal' action economy abuse - and you're either going to be burning wealth quickly to do it, or you're going to be attaching capacitors and waiting a while for them to charge up between uses... ...What sorts of abuses are you envisioning?

Generally about what you said. XP free reality revisions (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/realityRevision.htm), time jumps (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/timeRegression.htm), or easy psychic reformations, three more powers getting used on the first round of combat in addition to the three or four that were already happening at this level of optimization.

[Endarire]

My motto toward Complete Psionic as GM is to ignore its nerfs and generally keep the other material. My groups haven't fretted over it.

Also, Persistent Spell (OGL) is +4 spell slot levels instead of +6 from Complete Arcane.

[Calthropstu]

If the latest rules take effect, then the SRD would trump the complete psionics handbook. The 1 at a time limitation does not exist in the SRD... as such it is superseded.

So it kind of looks like the limitation has been removed.

[Doctor Awkward]

If you think psionics doesn't have nice things, I urge you to look at the material again. As for the DCs scaling with what is effectively caster level, if you can't see how that goes against practically every convention set by the d20 system, then I can't really say much for you.

I'm well aware psionics has nice things. Ardent is one of my favorite 3.5 classes.

And conventions, just like crazy, are still a matter of perspective.

Energy Stun as printed on the SRD is a close range power with a 5-ft. radius burst, a and a few flavorful elemental settings. The biggest selling factor it has is the save DC scaling. Sure at level 9+ it can get out of control, a little earlier if the psion grabs Overchannel + Talented, but otherwise it's just a neat effect that a primary spellcaster can't easily duplicate.

Now compared the CPsi version of the power to Amethyst Burst from Dragon Magic, pg. 75. Amethyst Burst is also a 2nd level Close Range Psion/Wilder power with a typical scaling augment, except it has a 20-ft. radius burst. And it does force damage, so it also works on incorporeal targets.

Without the nerf, any three of these powers could see their way onto the same character's list. With the nerf? There's no reason not to take Amethyst Burst over both of them, unless that book isn't available.

You can argue that only proves that Amethyst Burst is overpowered too (full disclosure: I've played in parties with psions who took that as their only blasting power), but if you are still in line with the relative power of the group then that's all that matters. The DM just puts you up against stronger enemies.

[Inevitability]

Also, Persistent Spell (OGL) is +4 spell slot levels instead of +6 from Complete Arcane.

Complete Arcane is a more recent source, though.

[Particle_Man]

How many Astral Constructs can a psionic player summon?

Zero. Astral Constructs are created, not summoned. [/pedant] :smallsmile:

[Zombimode]

but if you are still in line with the relative power of the group then that's all that matters. The DM just puts you up against stronger enemies.

You're making a whole lot of assumptions here, pal. This is not the way I run things, for instance. The challenges in my Settings and adventures are static. It is the Players job AND prerogative to find ways to beat those challenges.

[Doctor Awkward]

You're making a whole lot of assumptions here, pal. This is not the way I run things, for instance. The challenges in my Settings and adventures are static. It is the Players job AND prerogative to find ways to beat those challenges.

If the players are trouncing your enemies with ease and everyone is having fun then there is no problem.

If one player is bored because he spent tons of time building an efficient and effective character and is facing no real challenge, then it's the DM's prerogative to challenge him appropriately. Ditto if the party is bored.

[Nifft]

Also, Persistent Spell (OGL) is +4 spell slot levels instead of +6 from Complete Arcane.

What's the source for "(OGL)"?

The one in the SRD appears to be six levels higher: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#persistentSpell

[Jack_Simth]

What's the source for "(OGL)"?

The one in the SRD appears to be six levels higher: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#persistentSpell

Open Gaming Liscense. The Official source is a set of... was it .doc's or .rtf's... no matter... on WotC's website. Those never got errata, and were just simple documents, so people put them on websites with organization. They then incorporated errata documents and other OGL sources. d20srd.org is one such - it's technically not official WotC, it just gets most the content from there.

[icefractal]

Now compared the CPsi version of the power to Amethyst Burst from Dragon Magic, pg. 75. Amethyst Burst is also a 2nd level Close Range Psion/Wilder power with a typical scaling augment, except it has a 20-ft. radius burst. And it does force damage, so it also works on incorporeal targets.Amethyst Burst doesn't stun people; of course it's going to better for just dealing damage. Also, Energy Stun either does more damage, has +2 DC/+2 vs SR, or ignores hardness, so against a single target it's sometimes better even for that.

[Doctor Awkward]

Amethyst Burst doesn't stun people;

Neither does Energy Burst(derp) Stun with the CPsi nerf... :smalltongue:


Smashing inanimate objects is a waste of power points. You take a Warblade with you for that. Or an Adamantine dagger.

The real problem is that Energy Burst(derp) Stun is strictly worse for all of those functions than Energy Missile. The only reason people would even consider Energy Stun is that Missile is Kineticist only.

And with the nerf there's really no choice to make. I'm not faulting people for wanting to run a game with the nerf. I'm saying it takes away something really nice from psionics that isn't any more overpowered than what primary spellcasters can do, so it's a little silly to use that nerf without also doing something to address primary spellcasters.

[Calthropstu]

Zero. Astral Constructs are created, not summoned. [/pedant] :smallsmile:

Well done. Very well done.