is it me or the DM that problem

[Chidori]

I just finish ( well left before the game was over) a game. It have been 2 game so far.

The DM told me at game 1 We play by the book no houserule other than no action point (eberron campaign)

The first game was okay a few mysterious houserule that pop up out of nowhere. Like if you skill is not class skill you cannot invest point in it skill like use magic device. Even if you have able learner ( that why now it banned) or the Magebane weapon that didnt work on a Kraken that so happen to be a magical beast and have spell-like abilities. The DM was you haven't analyse it before to know that magebane would deal the extra 2d6.( that houserule now. it goes with bane etc.)

Today game was the straw that have made me left like 3hr earlier.
So we where in a public library and we have found a abyssal book. (me and a other character are cleric (one is silver flame))
SO we are like well we need to bring that to the high priest to see what he think about this. SO the head of the library is like we need to buy or rent the book. We explained that book may containt it could have so weird evil thing in it. the head dont give a crap and say buy equal 500gp or 100gp for rent. So I try to Diplomacy my way out of this to either lower the price as of what the contain may be. SO i Roll diplo (26) and the dm roll sense motive (hidden and dont want to show the result. he like dont work. Im like is it not diplo vs diplo? he like nah it sense motive. So the head get angry and like it either you buy or rent. So the silver flame cleric try to diplo her he roll 22 and he still role sense motive and stay hidden. so cuz of that the head jump to conclusion we want to steal the book and call the city guard. With a silent, still quicken message spell ( i think that cast like a lvl 6 spell) so a random npc that cant cast move object to get us the book. can cast that i find it absurd but it possible. so I go along with this.

the guard arrive in like 2 min. So we explain to the guard that we dont want to steal the book and explain the abyssal part and the risk it could bring. He like i dont care so I try to reason with him diplo I roll 31. the roll roll hidden and like nah it didnt work so you receive a small warning an a fee of 1500gp and return the book. me and the silver flame are like wtf! The guard start to ready is shield and hand on is weapon. So we decide to take the fee. they give us 7 day to pay it. So we head to the silver flame church. We seek and audiance with the high cleric. We explain about the book and the absurd discrimination. The high cleric is like im too busy to help. So I roll diplomacy and insist about to look into the book. I roll 36(natural 20) n dm roll. (hidden) It not good and get angry and try to chase us our of the church for vile talk etc. me and the other player are seriously like wtf. So I go on d20srd to read on diplomacy and see the it diplo vs diplo and explain to the dm. He like i know it diplo vs diplo but i rolled higher that you every time. So i was a random no name city guard of lvl 1 to 3 ( no magic item what so ever was rolling diplomacy 32+. So i called bull**** on that. He was like that what I rolled. and continue the game without coming back on me and the silver flame ( as the group was split in half) I waiting almost an 1h at the table and then I left. With a thank for the game .

So is it me that too much about the rule or is the dm poorly execute the role of DM

sorry about the rant but it needed to come out

[Allanimal]

It sounds to me like the DM just doesn't want the option of talking your way out of problems and wants you to do things their way.

I've run into several DMs over the years that gimped social abilities severely, if not just auto-disallow it outright. Wonder why that is?

[OldTrees1]

Short answer:
You do not trust this person to DM.
So you should find another group.


Long answer:
You do not trust this person's DMing. Even accounting for the inherent bias in your description, I see insufficient evidence to contradict your conclusion. I cannot tell you if your conclusion is right/wrong, but there is no evidence to suggest you should return to trusting this DM.

The rules as you understood them are changing without acknowledgement or warning (only RAW -> house rules & Dip vs SM <-> Dip vs Dip).
Additionally the NPCs are succeeding at checks that don't fit their descriptions as you understand them. (30+ results on what appears to be a 1st-3rd level guard).



Note 1: A note for when you join your next group, 500gp does not sound like much for a character of your level(walking around with a +16 Diplomacy modifier). A good DM would respect verisimilitude and player agency if you tried to talk around such a charge, but it really does not sound like a big deal.

Note 2: I long ago abandoned the social skill RAW as bad design. Currently I used opposed checks with context based modifiers. This could appear as nerfing the social skills, and it is, but it leaves them at a functional & balanced level that also respects verisimilitude. Some of those encounters would have had minor penalties based upon your approach, however I expected some of them would be successful. (Indirect partial answer to Allanimal's indirect question)

[bean illus]

Short answer:
You do not trust this person to DM.

The rules as you understood them are changing without acknowledgement or warning (only RAW -> house rules & Dip vs SM <-> Dip vs Dip).
Additionally the NPCs are succeeding at checks that don't fit their descriptions as you understand them. (30+ results on what appears to be a 1st-3rd level guard).

Note 2: I long ago abandoned the social skill RAW as bad design. Currently I used opposed checks with context based modifiers. This could appear as nerfing the social skills, and it is, but it leaves them at a functional & balanced level that also respects verisimilitude. Some of those encounters would have had minor penalties based upon your approach, however I expected some of them would be successful. (Indirect partial answer to Allanimal's indirect question)

I was thinking similarly. The situation could have called for sense motive, and that could have had a +/-5. In fact ALL diplo should trigger a sense motive.

But how a clerk is casting as a 13th level caster is something i don't get. How a priest can roll a high on either of those is suspect. How a guard possibly beats a 36 is just impossible. ...natural 20, +5 mod, +5 magic item?, max skills =7 at third? I guess if he can't ride a horse and has a +5 magic item at 3rd level it's possible (ahem, wbl).

[King of Nowhere]

your character was trying to help. why would they roll a sense motive when there was no deception?

ok, a really evil DM could rule that if a failed sense motive against someone who's lying results in beliving him, a failed sense motive against someone who's telling the truth results in disbelieving him. And so you rolled a 36 on diplomacy telling the truth, and if they roll less than 36 on sense motive they think you are lying. of course, that's insane, but it can at least be argued with, and it explains why despite your high rolls nobody trusts you. It can also have a little bit of realism, as someone really glib can make you instinctively mistrustful: I have a friend who's really good at lying annd I tend to mistrust him only because I know if he were lying I'd never spot him. Could be something like that, the guard sees that you argument really well and thinks that you could lye very easily.
But yeah, seems like the DM just wanted to railroad you

[jdizzlean]

i had a similar problem once when i was the DM. failry new to it, and was simply being stubborn. I had a specific idea of what i wanted the players to do, and when they didn't do it, i forced them into doing it as a random magic effect that they had no save over. that was not a good idea in retrospect.

sounds to me like your DM is doing much the same thing. He wants a specific outcome, and isn't prepared to bend towards anything else.

either way, it's not a good fit for you, so either address it outright, or move on to another group if you're able.

[Efrate]

Your DM is wrong, but right. And not good at explaining his expectations. He said no houserules, then randomly houserules. Bad DMing. He changes the way skills work out of no where, and is clearly fiating a bunch of stuff unless there is some weird modifiers in place, I'm thinking the +20 modifier to sense motive for an outlandish bluff, but you were not bluffing. Diplomacy is highly OP in some ways, and I can see that being a reasonable interpretation, but again the DM needs to explain ok stuff works this way not that way to you. Bad Dming, and wrong via RAW.

HOWEVER, it is his game, his rules, so even though he went about it wrong he is right at the same time. I wouldn't game with him, at least not until you iron out all the details of how all this works. If he is changing stuff drastically IMO he should allow you a free rebuild or something because if his rules make it so you cannot use a skill in a way that it is supposed to work and you didn't know that, I think in fairness he should allow you to reallocate those resources. In or out of character, you can work that out.

If the library was known to have valuable/magical texts, a panic button that summons a guard is fine. I can see an argument for that.

The high cleric would have the skills to make a check that beats you, I can see an argument for that.

The guard is not gonna make a check like that without the plus 20 though.

[Pleh]

The answer you are looking for is that it is the dm that is the problem.

[Thaneus]

I sometimes dont understand what ppl thing diplomacy, bluff and sense motive stands for...
You make a diplomacy check to convince someone, as a matter of your IC knowledge fact... with a 30+ Roll.
Ok the DM rolls Sense Motive he rolls higher and... what dose he realize? well this guy tells the truth and believes it. He is a cleric, a man/woman of church and believe (I assume one which at least has nothing to go with deceit and stealing) and seems rather influential (level 10+, fancy gear...).
No Guard, no library clerk and no other normal citizen will stand in the way of this guy when he sincerely and without abuse in tone tell you: "Good man, i am sorry but i need to confiscate this book because it has imprinted with abyssal demonic magic. You may come to Temple *inside name* to check if we had concluded any bad influence on you, your store and anything else. May *inside God name* bless you!" the answer of this not so simple clerk (because of sense motive more then 30) has to be: "Please take it away your grace, I will close the store as soon as possible and come to you!"

When you roll sense motive and even with a 200+ you see, he tells the truth, he is a cleric and convinced that it is the case.
Either you (clerk) know something or you are already infested with the abyssal magic (which should have called a sense motive or knowledge planes roll for the PC) because when this clerk now frames them to be thieves he is obviously possessed and needs to be purged.

Diplomacy = hey we are fiends now, or at least you understand my point of view
Sense motive = who is this guy and what is he up to?
Bluff = I want you to believe something which is not true
Intimidate = bad idea to oppose me

SO basically either you guys stumbled on a cabal. The guardsman and the clerk are some high ranks in there and played with you because you did not know of you own standing *what lovely plot hook* or the DM is utterly not in the slightest playing be RAW and just screws around

[prufock]

HOWEVER, it is his game, his rules, so even though he went about it wrong he is right at the same time.
It isn't the DM's game, it's a group game. It only works if there's an understanding between the DM and players. House rules are part of that understanding, but if the DM makes arbitrary, on-the-fly rule changes, he's breaking that understanding.

[Melcar]

I just finish ( well left before the game was over) a game. It have been 2 game so far.

The DM told me at game 1 We play by the book no houserule other than no action point (eberron campaign)

The first game was okay a few mysterious houserule that pop up out of nowhere. Like if you skill is not class skill you cannot invest point in it skill like use magic device. Even if you have able learner ( that why now it banned) or the Magebane weapon that didnt work on a Kraken that so happen to be a magical beast and have spell-like abilities. The DM was you haven't analyse it before to know that magebane would deal the extra 2d6.( that houserule now. it goes with bane etc.)

Today game was the straw that have made me left like 3hr earlier.
So we where in a public library and we have found a abyssal book. (me and a other character are cleric (one is silver flame))
SO we are like well we need to bring that to the high priest to see what he think about this. SO the head of the library is like we need to buy or rent the book. We explained that book may containt it could have so weird evil thing in it. the head dont give a crap and say buy equal 500gp or 100gp for rent. So I try to Diplomacy my way out of this to either lower the price as of what the contain may be. SO i Roll diplo (26) and the dm roll sense motive (hidden and dont want to show the result. he like dont work. Im like is it not diplo vs diplo? he like nah it sense motive. So the head get angry and like it either you buy or rent. So the silver flame cleric try to diplo her he roll 22 and he still role sense motive and stay hidden. so cuz of that the head jump to conclusion we want to steal the book and call the city guard. With a silent, still quicken message spell ( i think that cast like a lvl 6 spell) so a random npc that cant cast move object to get us the book. can cast that i find it absurd but it possible. so I go along with this.

the guard arrive in like 2 min. So we explain to the guard that we dont want to steal the book and explain the abyssal part and the risk it could bring. He like i dont care so I try to reason with him diplo I roll 31. the roll roll hidden and like nah it didnt work so you receive a small warning an a fee of 1500gp and return the book. me and the silver flame are like wtf! The guard start to ready is shield and hand on is weapon. So we decide to take the fee. they give us 7 day to pay it. So we head to the silver flame church. We seek and audiance with the high cleric. We explain about the book and the absurd discrimination. The high cleric is like im too busy to help. So I roll diplomacy and insist about to look into the book. I roll 36(natural 20) n dm roll. (hidden) It not good and get angry and try to chase us our of the church for vile talk etc. me and the other player are seriously like wtf. So I go on d20srd to read on diplomacy and see the it diplo vs diplo and explain to the dm. He like i know it diplo vs diplo but i rolled higher that you every time. So i was a random no name city guard of lvl 1 to 3 ( no magic item what so ever was rolling diplomacy 32+. So i called bull**** on that. He was like that what I rolled. and continue the game without coming back on me and the silver flame ( as the group was split in half) I waiting almost an 1h at the table and then I left. With a thank for the game .

So is it me that too much about the rule or is the dm poorly execute the role of DM

sorry about the rant but it needed to come out

Firstly, your DM is not playing by the rules, he seems to be houserulling/ DM-fiating the whole thing, which except the rare occations is seldom a good way to go - simply because the players kind of always loose in this way, even when they win. I think you might want to bring this up. Tell him that you are unhappy with his constant house rullings!

Second, it would seem that either you have lost track of your "quest" and that your DM is angry for splitting up or that he simple just suckes. Either way you are unhappe and I would sit him down in a nice way and tell him this.

If he does not want to listen or completely disregards your issues, then I would say its not worth spending more time on something you dont enjoy.

I hope things work out!