In a dungeon would the enemy hear your Verbal spell component a few rooms away?

[rigolgm]

Hi

I'm just curious to gauge how risky it is in your games to cast spells with a Verbal component near enemies.

Imagine a typical goblin-y dungeon with wooden doors in most rooms and some of the rooms contain goblins, bugbears and orcs in various conversations, eating meals etc.

Assuming a bunch of goblins are relatively calm today and just talking, not being loud and rowdy, do you think they could hear a wizard casting a spell through, say, about two or three very nearby doors?

How about in an almost silent dungeon with no doors? I presume a Verbal component might echo for a very long distance.

I know it's ultmately a DM decision. But I'm guessing that some DMs are probably happy to let it slide, even when normally casting a spell might expose an ambush attempt etc long before the ambush is attempted. I think a sorceror's ability to make spells inaudible is great, if DMs are being rigorous about punishing magic users who are too, well, 'verbal'!

If anyone suggests it, I don't think a Stealth roll can be allowed to lessen the volume of a Verbal component. However I think it could be used sometimes to lessen the risk in other ways (i.e. representing clever use of an acoustically quieter arer, or applying better knowledge of when enemy guards might be nearest etc)?

I suppose I'm asking partly because DMs seem to let players get away with quite a lot regarding stealth. It's hard to imagine any party making very little noise when walking through an almost-silent cave network, stealth roll or no stealth roll.

Best

Mike

[Foxhound438]

really depends

in a limestone cavern, with rock solid walls and no physical barriers between "rooms" I could see the answer being yes, but at the same time if it's 3 miles of tunnel between openings it's hard to imagine it'd be very audible from the next room.

In something more like a cave dug into a hillside, where the walls don't reflect sound very well (what I imagine a goblin cave would be like) the rooms would have to be pretty packed together to hear, unless you have to yell at the top of your lungs to cast.

[tyruth]

Also, I don't believe there are any requirements as to how loud you have to say the verbal components, so you could whisper them which would help with that part of things. The rest would depend on the goblins' passive perception and how the DM gauges the difficulty of hearing things through walls.

[Hrugner]

The verbal component explicitly requires sounds, pitch and resonance. So these things can't be changed. Maintaining a specific pitch and resonance at a very low volume is something you'd learn to do as part of a choir, but I can't think of anywhere else you'd pick it up. That being the case, I'd think a performance check versus perception would seem to make sense for pulling this off. You could also use minor illusion to create a less suspicious sound to mask the verbal component, such as wind blowing through the corridors.

[rigolgm]

I thought you (Tyruth) were wrong about being able to whisper it, however you're totally right that the rules (page 203) don't actually say anything about required volume. Just that it's a chanting of words - a combination of sounds with specific pitch and resonance. Doesn't seem to imply much loudness.

Odd, as I've seen other parts of this forum concluding that, for example, trying to use Mage Hand stealthily (as an Arcane Trickster) is difficult unless you're away from the target and in a loud marketplace etc. Maybe that's just a concern that the forces of nature (and 'the weave') couldn't hear a Verbal whisper over the noise of the crowd. Hmm.

As long as I'm not missing something, it sounds (pun intended) like there's DM interpretation. Fair enough. I like to imagine mighty spells that summon storms etc might usually require louder chanting than, say Mage Hand.

I like Hrugner's Minor Illusion idea, as Minor Illusion itself has no Verbal component.

[StoicLeaf]

I feel that, barring special circumstance or rolls, you shouldn't allow casters to cast "silently".
Casting charm person on the king whilst being surrounded by the royal guard comes to mind.

[pwykersotz]

I just always assumed V components required the same volume as talking. So if talking could be heard a few rooms away, then the spell could be as well. That said, it's all in the spell context. I don't view the V component for Suggestion or the like to be obtrusive, it's the words you're using to frame the request. You wouldn't say "AZERATH METRION ZINTHOS! Go fetch me the wand from that pedestal."

I think that's an official interpretation, but I can't be sure. I'm AFB.

[EscherEnigma]

If the party is trying to be stealthy, then have them make a stealth check.

If the party isn't trying to be stealthy, then folks in the next room over are probably aware.

Beyond the next room over, I'd only say they're aware if there's some deliberate alarm or battle.

Out of a dungeon, I'd do it similar. If the caster is trying to slyly cast a spell in public, then a stealth check (possibly a sleight of hand if it makes sense).

[EscherEnigma]

It's hard to imagine any party making very little noise when walking through an almost-silent cave network, stealth roll or no stealth roll.
Sounds like a good time to apply disadvantage to stealth, or give advantage to perception.

[Gignere]

Sounds like a good time to apply disadvantage to stealth, or give advantage to perception.

If it is a lived in cave it wouldn't be silent. Goblins talk, they can outright get rowdy, there may even be a bat in the cave if it is a Dwarven cave. Basically most cave has its own ecosystem and most of these ecosystems will not be silent.

[Saeviomage]

By the book, you can say a spell at a very low volume just fine, so there's no risk of someone multiple rooms away hearing you.

I would expect that casting a spell on the king in front of his guard without being noticed is going to be difficult by virtue of his guard being literally a couple of feet away from you while you are addressing him. Most settings I would expect to have levels of magic sufficient that he's been magically guarded in multiple ways too. Alternately if the magic level is too low for that, then he's already been enslaved to some other nastier creature.

I have always assumed that even if a spell were to have no V, S or M component, it would still be possible to tell (with scrutiny) that someone is casting a spell by the fact that the caster has to concentrate on casting it to the exclusion of all other action other than movement.

[Tanarii]

Almost certainly not.

The question of how loud a battle is, and thunder-based spells are, came up recently in two other threads. I was looking up the decibel scale for it, and the range at which you could hear even something like loud fighting at the equivalent volume of a fairly loud conversation is surprisingly short. Something like 40-80 ft.

A outdoor conversation in a noise place, like say a mall, is about the most you'd expect a V component to be. In that case it'd be a whisper at 40ft without any obstructions.

IMO through several doors there'd be no chance of monsters hearing it over their own conversations if they weren't paying particular attention. Even with no doors at 40ft, if you could hear their conversation that's the absolute loudest it'd sound to them, and the likelihood of them actually noticing it over their own conversation would probably be low.

[ShikomeKidoMi]

Odd, as I've seen other parts of this forum concluding that, for example, trying to use Mage Hand stealthily (as an Arcane Trickster) is difficult unless you're away from the target and in a loud marketplace etc. Maybe that's just a concern that the forces of nature (and 'the weave') couldn't hear a Verbal whisper over the noise of the crowd. Hmm.

That's even whispers carry if its quiet. Mage Hand has a very short range (30 feet) and you're going to want to be close to the edge of that or have a distraction if you want to be unnoticed.

Alternately, pretend you're whispering to one of your party members, it's easier to tell someone is whispering than exactly what.

[MarkVIIIMarc]

Depends on the setting. Right now if my 6 year old 20 foot away in the next room could talk quietly and I wouldn't hear it. In 10 minutes after the wife turns off the tv he'll barely be able to whisper.

I just heard the 1 year old roll over in the next room lol.

At 7pm tv's are on, the wife is on the phone, a lot more could be chanted w/o me hearing.

[RSP]

Couple of Crawford tweets relevant to this thread are below. Just to clarify: spells like Charm Person or Suggestion actually require magical words as part of the V component, so whereas you may want to Charm the King, his guards would most certainly know there was a casting.

In general, I go with if a character tries to hide their casting in a way that would mimic or make Subtle Spell irrelevant, I wouldn't allow it. However, casting doesn't have to be so loud or audible that a caster couldn't do it in a separate room and go unnoticed. Just my take on it though.

Here are the tweets:

"The verbal component of a spell must be audible to work. How loud is audible? That's up to the DM. #DnD"

"Verbal components are mystic words (PH, 203). The spell's suggestion is a separate, intelligible utterance. #DnD"

[Plaguescarred]

do you think they could hear a wizard casting a spell through, say, about two or three very nearby doors?No i wouldn't have them hear the verbal components from a room 3 doors down, unless the caster is shouting them.

[Randomthom]

Never thought that my degree (sound engineering) would be called upon in D&D but... actually, it won't because realism is boring and math-y.

Without going into the inverse square law regarding propagation of sound pressure level or absorbtion coefficients of different surfaces/materials here is a general rule.

Consider 6 "tiers" of volume, we'll call them BOOM (5), Shout (4), Talk (3), Whisper (2), Nearly Silent (1) and Silent (0).

Decide which tier the sound you are querying is.
Now consider what tier the background noise is (if any).

Now subtract the background noise value from the original sound value.

e.g. If lightning strikes then the peal of thunder (BOOM, 5) is loud but doesn't seem so loud when stood next to a waterfall (Shout, 4). The net result is that you have to strain to hear the thunder over the waterfall, it is comparatively nearly silent (1).

Now, to consider distance & obstruction.

As a general rule, each door/wall separating the listener from the sound should decrease it by 1 category or 2 in the case of exceptionally thick doors & walls.
I'd also apply the same -1 sound category for every 100 ft. of open space.

There are complications that can be factored into this quite easily too. Imagine that the previous example of Thunder & waterfall was just outside a pub in which the listener was involved in a normal conversation (Talk, 3). The net result would now be a -2 but you can't enter "sub-silence" so it simply resolves to 0.

You can even tie these into the typical DCs from the DMG (p238). I'd call them BOOM (5, No check, DC 0), Shout (4, Very Easy, DC 5), Talk (3, Easy, DC 10), Whisper (2, Moderate, DC 15) & Nearly Silent (1, Hard, DC 20) and Silent (0, Very Hard, DC 25).

Or you could scrap all of that and just use advantage/disadvantage :)

[Contrast]

The other point is that, at worst, a verbal component is going to be <6 seconds (personally I would actually imagine only 1-2 seconds would be more typical) of conversation level volume speaking.

Unless I'm primed and on alert to expect intruders or in an environment where there should be no noise whatsoever, even if I did hear something and paused to listen, unless I heard something else I would likely dismiss that as rats or the like. So in that situation I might have it trigger a group stealth check rather than auto-failing (but then if they were planning on sneaking up on someone a group stealth check was probably on the cards anyway so...).

Of course if you're actually fighting I think the spellcasters verbal components are the least your worries noisewise.

[MrStabby]

Next room? Sure. Multiple rooms away probably not unless it was a crypt or other silent place. This is ignoring the sound that the effect of the spell makes on top of the casting.

About the same volume as hitting something with a sword (although in RL the sound of metal violently struck against metal is much louder).

[MinotaurWarrior]

I mean, we generally assume they don't hear fights from two rooms away (standard dungeon encounter design).

I pretty much always allow buffing at the door.

Blame hearing loss from the clanging of steel, sword against helmet, if you really need an excuse.

[MrStabby]

I mean, we generally assume they don't hear fights from two rooms away (standard dungeon encounter design).

I pretty much always allow buffing at the door.

Blame hearing loss from the clanging of steel, sword against helmet, if you really need an excuse.

Ok, this is very different to me.

Spellcasting with a verbal component right at the door to a room would be almost certain to alert whoever was inside in my games.

And in my games enemies do hear fights from down the corridor. If you don't finish a fight quickly and move away before enemies investigating the sound arrive you can find yourself overwhelmed.

I guess it is a very different style.

[Tanarii]

That's even whispers carry if its quiet. Mage Hand has a very short range (30 feet) and you're going to want to be close to the edge of that or have a distraction if you want to be unnoticed.

Alternately, pretend you're whispering to one of your party members, it's easier to tell someone is whispering than exactly what.Apparently 30ft is enough to make a quietly spoken phrase whisper volume, or a somewhat loud conversation sound like a quiet one.


Ok, this is very different to me.

Spellcasting with a verbal component right at the door to a room would be almost certain to alert whoever was inside in my games.

And in my games enemies do hear fights from down the corridor. If you don't finish a fight quickly and move away before enemies investigating the sound arrive you can find yourself overwhelmed.

I guess it is a very different style.
Sounds like you have dungeon doors about as thick as the average modern internal-structure door to me. :) Or are the enemies on the other side totally silent?

But yeah, fights definitely should definitely be audible. If you assume they are loud as a garbage disposal or washing machine/dishwasher in its loud phase (80dB) they're as as a loud conversation (60dB) at 10m (30 ft) and a quiet conversation (40dB) at 32m (90ft). Assuming no obstructions, and the enemy not having their own loud conversations, that'll alert things in the next room for sure.

[MinotaurWarrior]

Ok, this is very different to me.

Spellcasting with a verbal component right at the door to a room would be almost certain to alert whoever was inside in my games.

And in my games enemies do hear fights from down the corridor. If you don't finish a fight quickly and move away before enemies investigating the sound arrive you can find yourself overwhelmed.

I guess it is a very different style.

It really is.

Most dungeons are traversable in a very short period of time. With what I'd consider the high-verisimilitude approach, when you start striking steel against steel as hard as you can, you're either gonna end up with the entire dungeon on your butt all at once, or at least something close (someone might have to watch the back door). The idea of fighting small groups of enemies one at a time in a series of adjoining rooms is silly. But I generally chalk that up as being about as silly as elephant-sized monsters flying and breathing fire.

[MrStabby]

It really is.

Most dungeons are traversable in a very short period of time. With what I'd consider the high-verisimilitude approach, when you start striking steel against steel as hard as you can, you're either gonna end up with the entire dungeon on your butt all at once, or at least something close (someone might have to watch the back door). The idea of fighting small groups of enemies one at a time in a series of adjoining rooms is silly. But I generally chalk that up as being about as silly as elephant-sized monsters flying and breathing fire.

Sounds like same problem different solutions.

I tend to have my dungeons with clusters of rooms and longer passageways between them. Yes you will draw attention if you are loud but there are firebreaks between sections that mean that either they won't hear you or it will take them some time to come and get you.

[MrStabby]

Apparently 30ft is enough to make a quietly spoken phrase whisper volume, or a somewhat loud conversation sound like a quiet one.


Sounds like you have dungeon doors about as thick as the average modern internal-structure door to me. :) Or are the enemies on the other side totally silent?


Maybe thicker, but certainly they are often less well fitting. And the rooms are not likely to be carpeted - lots of nice stone and tilled surfaces to reflect the sound. No soft furnishings to absorb the noise.

[Gignere]

It really is.

Most dungeons are traversable in a very short period of time. With what I'd consider the high-verisimilitude approach, when you start striking steel against steel as hard as you can, you're either gonna end up with the entire dungeon on your butt all at once, or at least something close (someone might have to watch the back door). The idea of fighting small groups of enemies one at a time in a series of adjoining rooms is silly. But I generally chalk that up as being about as silly as elephant-sized monsters flying and breathing fire.

Isn't this dependent on the denizens of said dungeon and caverns it isn't unusual for most of the chaotic races to have fights among themselves so why would steel striking steel draw undue attention. Do people not take ecology of the dungeon when determine noise and reaction?

If you are infiltrating a Yuan Ti stronghold sounds of tortured screams of pain would be routine and be consider background noise to most of the denizens. So stabbing someone in their gut and eliciting a blood curling shriek may go unnotice in said stronghold.

[BW022]

Mike,

I would assume that it would be loud enough that someone could hear it -- at least as loud as normal speech. It is then up to the DM to make a ruling what the DC should be depending upon the dungeon, distance, doors, other noises, whether anyone is actually listening, etc.

Simple rule might be DC 5 per room or 50' passage separating them, maybe +5 for each wooden door. Next room over with a closed door... maybe DC 10. If there was any noise (group talking, flowing water, crowd of people in the streets, etc.) I'd at 10 or more.

I would allow the stealth check (possibly using Wisdom) for the caster to determine where a 'good' place to cast might be -- letting them know that they might want to move further back, around a corner, between some barrels, etc. I.e. "If you cast here, there is a good chance someone on the other side of that door might here you. Back around the corner might be better." However, I wouldn't allow the stealth check itself to replace the above DC.

[Pex]

There comes a point where too much realism ruins the fun of the game. Don't worry about the minutiae. When something makes a loud noise allowing for potential notice by dungeon denizens everywhere, you'll know. See Knock and Thunderwave.

[Demonslayer666]

I can't imagine goblins not being rowdy while awake...

That said, I would try to consider all factors. It depends a lot on distance, and the dungeon itself (dirt vs. stone). Plus the goblins are distracted since they are not on alert (intently listening for intruders). As a general rule, I do -10 for walls, -5 for doors.

As a DM, I have always required spells with a verbal component to be spoken in a loud and clear voice. Not shouting, but not a hushed tone, and certainly not whispering. You can't cast in silence unless you eliminate the verbal component of the spell. This way it balances out the Silence spell and the Silent Spell metamagic for sorcerers.

Making a lot of assumptions here, but lets say a couple rooms away is 30 feet, and 2 doors or 1 wall is between them in a dirt dungeon. I'd put the DC somewhere in the range of 18-20, and have them roll with disadvantage. Not very likely at all, so I'd probably not even consider it worth rolling. Even if they did hear it, would they go investigate? With that much interference, it may not be recognized as a threat. They may just shush everyone, and try to listen more, and then continue on their business. And we all know how shushing goblins works. /eyeroll

[Virfortis]

This isn't Dragonball Z, you can whisper or mutter the arcane language.

[pwykersotz]

Never thought that my degree (sound engineering) would be called upon in D&D but... actually, it won't because realism is boring and math-y.

Without going into the inverse square law regarding propagation of sound pressure level or absorbtion coefficients of different surfaces/materials here is a general rule.

Consider 6 "tiers" of volume, we'll call them BOOM (5), Shout (4), Talk (3), Whisper (2), Nearly Silent (1) and Silent (0).

Decide which tier the sound you are querying is.
Now consider what tier the background noise is (if any).

Now subtract the background noise value from the original sound value.

e.g. If lightning strikes then the peal of thunder (BOOM, 5) is loud but doesn't seem so loud when stood next to a waterfall (Shout, 4). The net result is that you have to strain to hear the thunder over the waterfall, it is comparatively nearly silent (1).

Now, to consider distance & obstruction.

As a general rule, each door/wall separating the listener from the sound should decrease it by 1 category or 2 in the case of exceptionally thick doors & walls.
I'd also apply the same -1 sound category for every 100 ft. of open space.

There are complications that can be factored into this quite easily too. Imagine that the previous example of Thunder & waterfall was just outside a pub in which the listener was involved in a normal conversation (Talk, 3). The net result would now be a -2 but you can't enter "sub-silence" so it simply resolves to 0.

You can even tie these into the typical DCs from the DMG (p238). I'd call them BOOM (5, No check, DC 0), Shout (4, Very Easy, DC 5), Talk (3, Easy, DC 10), Whisper (2, Moderate, DC 15) & Nearly Silent (1, Hard, DC 20) and Silent (0, Very Hard, DC 25).

Or you could scrap all of that and just use advantage/disadvantage :)

I have no expertise in this area, but this looks like a very strong model. Very cool.

[Tanarii]

There comes a point where too much realism ruins the fun of the game. Don't worry about the minutiae. When something makes a loud noise allowing for potential notice by dungeon denizens everywhere, you'll know. See Knock and Thunderwave.
Truth. But IMO it's worth knowing approximately what's reasonable, in a very simple form, gives a DM a way to make easy judgement calls. For example, estimating that a loud battle sounds like a loud conversation from 30ft away and a quiet conversation from about 90ft away (with no obstructions) gives a nice baseline for a DM to run with. Or that a quiet verbal component in a non-stressful situation (ie quiet conversation) sounds like no more than a whisper from 30ft away (again no obstructions).

Roughly. Close enough.

Edit: axed something a bit more complicated because it was pretty inaccurate, and well, more complicated.