Two weapon fighting and attacks

[Keral]

Hi!
I'm working on a NPC for my campaign, and she fights with two weapons. However, I'm a bit confused with all the penalties and the number of attacks I can make during a standard action / full round action.

Help me out please!

Level 16
Bab 12/7/2
Two weapon fighting, Improved two weapon fightin, Dual Strike.

Now, I use an excel sheet for the stats, and the actual melee attack bonus comes out 30/25/20

So as a standard action I get, with dual strike:

As a standard action, you can make a melee attack with your primary weapon and your off-hand weapon. Both attacks use the same attack roll to determine success, using the worse of the two weapons' attack modifiers. If you are using a one-handed or light weapon in your primary hand and a light weapon in your off hand, you take a -4 penalty on this attack roll; otherwise you take a -10 penalty.

So if I read this correctly I attack with both hands with a +21 bonus? (Light weapons and using the worst hand bonus, so 25-4, right?)

And so far it may be pretty straightforward, unless I missed something.

But then we come to the full round action and I am utterly lost. :smalleek:

according to this, http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Two-Weapon_Fighting, my penalties are -2 and -2. My bab allows me to make 3 attacks so I get something like

Main +28/ Secondary +23 / Main(?) +18 and then since I have Improved TWF I get another with a -5 penalty. But where do I apply it? To the lowest of my attack bonuses?


I don't know anything anymore. That's why I always avoided two weapon fighting things in my campaign, but I really liked the concept for this NPC and wanted to use it.

I'd be truly grateful if you could explain it using the actual values from this character (I can happily provide other stats if they're needed) so that I may reverse-engineer your answer for future similar issues, if any.
Thanks a bunch! :smallsmile:

[InvisibleBison]

Two-weapon fighting lets you make an attack with your off-hand weapon in addition to your normal iterative attacks with your main weapon. The Improved and Greater TWF feats let you make additional attacks with your off-hand weapon as well.

Your character would thus, when making a full attack, make three attacks with the main weapon at +28/+23/+18, and then two attacks with the off-hand weapon at +28/+23.

I'm not familiar with the Dual Strike feat, so I can't comment on it.

[ExLibrisMortis]

I'm going to give attack bonuses only including base attack bonus and feat penalties. You'll have to add strength and other bonuses manually.

On a full attack, using only your (light/one-handed) main-hand weapon, you attack at +12/+7/+2.
On a full attack, using your main-hand weapon and (light) off-hand weapon, you attack with a -2 penalty, at +10/+5/+0 main-hand and +10/+5 off-hand. All other attacks you make during the round, including attacks of opportunity, also take that -2 penalty, attacking at +10.

On a standard action attack, using only your main-hand weapon, you attack at +12.
On a standard action attack, using your main-hand and off-hand weapons, you attack at +8 main-hand and off-hand. The Double Strike attack penalty is completely separate from the Two-Weapon Fighting penalties, and does not apply to attacks of opportunity, which keep attacking at +12.

Personally, I don't think Double Strike is all that worthwhile, and you're better off focussing on move + full attack, but it will be easier for your players to avoid full attacks this way, which could be an advantage.

[Keral]

Thank you guys! I was totally wrong there :smallredface:

I didn't think about move+full round attack, I might look into it. Can I get that with two feats tops? I'm afraid I have little room left in this build unless I increase the level.

Like this with a standard attack I'd get 2d3+2d6+11+15 .

Although 5d3+5d6+33+30 with a full attack seems quite a bit better.

This is assuming I hit with both, but I think I got enough attack bonus to hit with a certain certainty.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Travel Devotion is very good for move + full attacking, especially if you only need to do it one or two encounters per day. Once per day per time you take the feat, you can, for one minute (10 rounds), move up to your speed as a swift action.

[Keral]

Wait, this is awesome.


If you have the ability to turn or rebuke undead, you gain one additional daily use of this feat for each two daily turn or rebuke uses you expend.

Since this is a cleric, I get to use it three times a day. That's plenty enough I'd say :D

[ExLibrisMortis]

Wait, this is awesome.

Since this is a cleric, I get to use it three times a day. That's plenty enough I'd say :D
Good! If you take the Travel domain as cleric, you can immediately trade it for the corresponding devotion feat, as per page 53 of Complete Champion.

[rrwoods]

If it's a cleric already, consider spending 0 feat slots on it by trading the Travel domain for the feat, as per the rules in Complete Divine.

[Kelb_Panthera]

On a standard action attack, using your main-hand and off-hand weapons, you attack at +8 main-hand and off-hand.

This is not something you can normally do. If you're not making a full attack you don't get to attack with your off-hand at all unless you have a feat/feature that says you can. Benefit of the doubt: you forgot this was a houserule.

Dual strike is pretty straight forward.

If your weapons have the same enhancement bonus then they have the same attack bonus and you only need to take the appropriate penalty when you use both to make a single attack as a standard action. Think of the image of a guy with two swords using them like a pair of scissors. If one of the two weapons has a lower enhancement than the other, then you use the attack bonus associated with that weapon for the attack roll.

[ExLibrisMortis]

This is not something you can normally do. If you're not making a full attack you don't get to attack with your off-hand at all unless you have a feat/feature that says you can. Benefit of the doubt: you forgot this was a houserule.
That's what the Dual Strike feat does. We were talking about a character with Dual Strike. Benefit of the doubt: you forgot that was in the OP.

[KillianHawkeye]

Well Dual Strike uses just a single attack roll, whereas the post in question sorta made it seem like the main hand and off hand were operating individually as a Standard Action. It was basically correct, but a little clarification isn't unwarranted.

Benefit of the doubt: you both meant the same thing.

[Darrin]

I'm not familiar with the Dual Strike feat, so I can't comment on it.

It's a terrible feat. If you're looking for something that will let you attack twice with a standard action, then consider Snap Kick, or Martial Study: Wolf Fang Strike.

Obligatory Link: TWF OffHandbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?279079-3-5-The-TWF-OffHandbook).

[Kelb_Panthera]

It's a terrible feat. If you're looking for something that will let you attack twice with a standard action, then consider Snap Kick, or Martial Study: Wolf Fang Strike.

Obligatory Link: TWF OffHandbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?279079-3-5-The-TWF-OffHandbook).

Wolf fang strike as a feat (martial study) is only superior to dual strike if you actually have something like sneak attack that demands you make separate attacks for it to trigger with each weapon. Otherwise, being limited to once per encounter is enough drawback to put it on a par with dual strike at best.

As a maneuver known for a swordsage or warblade, however, the lower cost puts it well ahead. A set of tiger claw bracers containing the maneuver is also a thing that gives it an overall edge since an item containing dual strike would be horrendously expensive for the effect.

Likewise, snap-kick isn't actually better unless your unarmed strike is worth noting and actually stacks with dual strike anyway.

[Keral]

Thanks! That's an uneful link!

I just skimmed through it but I've already seen some useful bits to implement on this cleric.