Abadar or Sarenrae?

[Zhentarim]

Which god would be closest to what an orc would worship if they are a 5th generation slave, were raised in the faith by their full orc slave parents, and believe that strength through service is a stronger strength than strength of the individual--though the orc wants to earn his freedom by being a good slave and having his master freely give it to him? My orc is Lawful Good.

[Palanan]

Are you asking which faith his parents would have raised him in, or which deity he would choose for himself?

If the former, I would think Abadar would be a natural fit for a society based on slavery, since he isn’t concerned with moral philosophy or battling evil for its own sake. Abadar’s main interest is in promoting civilization through the free flow of commerce, and if slavery is the firm foundation of a society’s economy, I’d think Abadar would see that as something to be maintained. From that perspective, slaveowners would certainly promote Abadar’s faith among their slaves, since it encourages them to work hard and to consider their condition as a natural aspect of their society.

But if your orc is willing to make his own decision, I’d say that Sarenrae would be a better choice, given that your orc is Lawful Good and willing to use his strength to help others. Abadar’s dogma supports competition in service to personal profit, which is more likely to be inherently selfish and morally indifferent, whereas Sarenrae values service to others and confronting evil directly. Sarenrae's faith would be more likely to be considered subversive by the slaveowners, since liberating slaves—or encouraging them to liberate themselves—is one way of confronting and overcoming evil.

[Coidzor]

Honestly, neither deity seems a good fit for a slave who wants to be a good little boy and earn his freedom. Partially because that sounds deluded, since the slaveowner wouldn't free a slave that was highly valuable and useful, unless there was some sort of job they seemed qualified for that required them to be freed in order to do.


Abadar wants to have societies have enough economic reform and development that slavery dies out in them.


Sarenrae wants holy wars to spread her faith's dominance over others(IIRC her involvement in those Qadiran-Taldan wars, anyway), to destroy undead, and to redeem villains or kill them if they resist.


Given the two choices, Abadar makes marginally more sense.

[Zhentarim]

I, Barkenzar Barkolovar, have processes the unquestionable logic of Abadar. My brothers fight amongst themselves like savage fools and though I am too poor at reading others' emotions to speak well in public and my words come out wrong sometimes, I wish to earn my freedom so I can show other orcs through lawful deeds that you do not need to be a brute to be strong, as there are other uses for strength, such as serving the state, whiches enriches the worthy and is going to earn me my freedom. You see, reader, I was born as a 5th generation slave. My great great grandparents were savage barbarians who stalked what is now the Hold of Belkzen. My parents told me about them when we were working the fields one day. They were captured by slavers and bred for their strength, as great strength is required to pull in the big crop yields. This is just, as it helps the city grow. Most of my masters that I have served have themselves served Abadar, and it wasn't until my parents started to take the faith seriously a few years ago that my line was redeemed. I was born and trained in the ways of Abadar to the best of my parents' ability, and while I am not a cleric, I understand the faith well enough to accept my god's simple core tenets of being lawful, punishing lawbreakers, serving your station in society, and always seeking to expand civilization. It is only logical since if all can be made to follow the law of the land, all can be strong, all can be civilized, all can be wealthy, and all can be predicted. My spoken words betray me, but if I can complete a simple mission showing I am a lawful orc, I can go free and perhaps try to help other orcs see the light of law, even if only through my actions. Abadars words have proven themselves to me since while I have rarely been struck due to my respect for authority, those who have disobeyed have been beaten harshly--weakened by the powerful magics my masters could often afford to train their gaurds in. That is also likely why my prayers to Abadar have finally been answered. I was just sold to the government of Katapesh so I can be used to clear gnolls from the a ruined village called Kelmarane. If I can use my strength and the armor to complete this lawful act, I will have finally earned my freedom!

Given that a trait is called earning your freedom (grants +1 to a save--in my case will saves) and the party is tilted towards lawfulness at the moment. I'm trying to make a lawful orc slave earning his freedom, which he can do since his last master sold him to the government and the government is freeing slaves that kill all the gnolls in a village so it can be demolished for a new road that will be used for a trade route.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Coidzor
Abadar wants to have societies have enough economic reform and development that slavery dies out in them.

Is there a sourcebook that makes this claim directly? I’m basing my comments on what I’m reading in Gods and Magic, which makes no mention of slavery in its profile of Abadar.


Originally Posted by Qwanch
*Barkenzar’s backstory*

This nicely exemplifies how a society could embrace both slavery and the faith of Abadar—as two sides of the same coin, so to speak.

[Zhentarim]

Is there a sourcebook that makes this claim directly? I’m basing my comments on what I’m reading in Gods and Magic, which makes no mention of slavery in its profile of Abadar.



This nicely exemplifies how a society could embrace both slavery and the faith of Abadar—as two sides of the same coin, so to speak.

Abadar to my knowledge permits but dislikes slavery. He sees it as just a phase societies go through, but that civilization advances faster without it.

[legomaster00156]

Pretty much. He tolerates slavery as a stepping stone to true economic freedom, where everyone is able to participate equally in glorious capitalism.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Qwanch
Abadar to my knowledge permits but dislikes slavery. He sees it as just a phase societies go through, but that civilization advances faster without it.


Originally Posted by legomaster00156
Pretty much. He tolerates slavery as a stepping stone to true economic freedom, where everyone is able to participate equally in glorious capitalism.

What source is this from? I’d like to read up on that.

[legomaster00156]

A quick Google search tells me the source is Curse of the Crimson Throne, Book 2: Seven Days to the Grave.

[Particle_Man]

There are cases in history where valuable slaves were freed by their masters (Epictetus the Stoic for example). I think Abadar could fit. And worshippers of Abadar have access to one of the best traits in the game (+1 Perception and gain it as a class skill).

Come to think of it, reading up on some Epictetus might give a nice philosophical bent to your orc.

What class are you thinking of?

[Zhentarim]

There are cases in history where valuable slaves were freed by their masters (Epictetus the Stoic for example). I think Abadar could fit. And worshippers of Abadar have access to one of the best traits in the game (+1 Perception and gain it as a class skill).

What class are you thinking of?

fighter with a 1-level dip into alchemist for the mutagen, cure light wounds, true strike and enlarge person.

[Psyren]

Pretty much. He tolerates slavery as a stepping stone to true economic freedom, where everyone is able to participate equally in glorious capitalism.


What source is this from? I’d like to read up on that.


A quick Google search tells me the source is Curse of the Crimson Throne, Book 2: Seven Days to the Grave.

Inner Sea Gods also has a passage or two on it.

"The god of cities is stern, but rewards those who work hard and whose actions benefit others as well as themselves, though he is morally ambiguous enough to recognize that not every person can benefit from every decision. He frowns on the misuse of slaves or beasts of burden, considering it a waste of resources and detrimental to the profitability of civilization as a whole; he views using cheap laborers rather than slaves as a better option, as then the workers can use their funds to participate in commerce and rise above their low station through established economic channels. Abadar understands, however, that the world changes in small increments, and that the most advantageous option for society is not always the most workable in the present."

Basically he finds slavery distasteful more for its inefficiency than for any moral objections. He also has several dealings with Asmodeus (generally at arm's length) who is a pretty big proponent of the practice for obvious reasons.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Psyren
Inner Sea Gods also has a passage or two on it.

"The god of cities is stern, but rewards those who work hard and whose actions benefit others as well as themselves, though he is morally ambiguous enough to recognize that not every person can benefit from every decision. He frowns on the misuse of slaves or beasts of burden, considering it a waste of resources and detrimental to the profitability of civilization as a whole; he views using cheap laborers rather than slaves as a better option, as then the workers can use their funds to participate in commerce and rise above their low station through established economic channels. Abadar understands, however, that the world changes in small increments, and that the most advantageous option for society is not always the most workable in the present."

Thanks for the quote. This is almost a word-for-word reprint of the passage in Seven Days to the Grave (p. 65), with a couple extra phrases worked in.

Much of the text on Abadar from Gods and Magic is reprinted almost verbatim in Faiths of Balance. Apparently Abadar is big on recycling. :smallbiggrin:

[Particle_Man]

fighter with a 1-level dip into alchemist for the mutagen, cure light wounds, true strike and enlarge person.

Oh, then you get Perception as a class skill anyhow. Well I guess that frees up your trait selection for something else! ;)

[Psyren]

Thanks for the quote. This is almost a word-for-word reprint of the passage in Seven Days to the Grave (p. 65), with a couple extra phrases worked in.

Much of the text on Abadar from Gods and Magic is reprinted almost verbatim in Faiths of Balance. Apparently Abadar is big on recycling. :smallbiggrin:

Much like the WotC "Complete" series, Paizo's "Inner Sea X" and "Ultimate X" series tend to recycle/consolidate design concepts (both crunch and fluff) initially introduced in modules and articles. It's a good way of promoting consistency if nothing else.

[Sayt]

Sarenrae wants holy wars to spread her faith's dominance over others(IIRC her involvement in those Qadiran-Taldan wars, anyway), to destroy undead, and to redeem villains or kill them if they resist.

Sarenrae doesn't want the holy wars, the Cult (not Church) of The Dawnflower is a sect in Qadira aligned with the government and military and preaches imperialism in the Dawnflower's name.

Sarenrae herself promotes peace and healing. Hell, iirc her only truly avowed enemy is Rovagug, everyone else she'll have a crack at redeeming.