Can a fighter take off a mage in a perfect fight?

[Mrark]

Hi everyone. I am new and I am not a real pro player, so I'd like to know your opinion. Imagine a fight involving a fighter (warrior or barb) and a wizard. Both characters have an infinite amount of money and they are lvl 20 with their class levels. Both characters know they are going to face the other, so both will prepare in the best way. Is there any build and strategy which can give the fighter a considerable chance of winning, or the wizard is going to wreck him, no matter what he could possibly do? Both players are expert, and remember they could have any build they desire to get ready for the fight. Thanks for your time!:smallsmile:

[lylsyly]

To steal the answer from your own post: " the wizard is going to wreck him"

[Silva Stormrage]

"Infinite Money" essentially means that it doesn't matter the character classes at all as both are running around with infinite + UMD items with infinitely high CL staves and other spell trigger items for every spell.

But yes if you limit it to standard 20th level WBL the wizard is going to absolutely stomp the fighter in any realistic situation. Even in a perfect fight with the fighter always rolling perfect 20s and the wizard always rolling 1s the wizard would win fairly handedly. They have too many auto win buttons to lose.

[pupaeted]

If the wizard is naked and unconscious in a field (after a big night out), would a fully equipped fighter be able to kill him then?

[Lans]

At lower levels the fighter stands a chance, but at higher levels you get into chain consistencies which I think can restore a wizards equipment and conciousness before the fighter can kill him. Also the hide life spell might be a factor

[ExLibrisMortis]

Greater deities always get the maximum result on any die rolls. Greater deities (who are not spellcasters) can be beaten by wizards. A fighter fighting a perfect fight is like a non-spellcaster greater deity. Ergo, fighters can be beaten by wizards.

[Jormengand]

If the wizard is naked and unconscious in a field (after a big night out), would a fully equipped fighter be able to kill him then?

Probably not, given how many crafted contingent spells a Properly Optimised Wizard will have.

[Karl Aegis]

If the wizard is naked and unconscious in a field (after a big night out), would a fully equipped fighter be able to kill him then?

Wizard probably didn't use all his 9th level spells the night before, so he still can get his full allotment of spells if the fighter is 30 seconds away from him (probably more like 12 seconds, maybe the turn he wakes up).

No, the fighter isn't going to beat a full allotment of spells.

[Inevitability]

If the wizard is naked and unconscious in a field (after a big night out), would a fully equipped fighter be able to kill him then?

As is so often the case, it boils down to 'is the wizard prepared enough'?

In the base scenario, without assuming buffs on the wizard, the fighter would win.
So then the wizard could be using some kind of Contingency to be protected, or awakened, or anything else, causing the wizard to win.
So then the fighter could be using an item that creates a continuous AMF and kill the wizard anyway.
So then the wizard could become immune to AMF's in one of the various ways...

It goes on and on like that, until at the higher optimization levels the lost actions and awareness of being asleep don't even matter anymore for the wizard. It's obvious the fighter won't win in the end, though.

[Mrark]

I see :smallfrown:
That's kinda unfair.

[Thejugman]

If by perfect, you mean the wizard has nothing up like buffs and contingencies and has used up all of his spells before the fight, then yes, the fighter wins.

[Eldariel]

If by perfect, you mean the wizard has nothing up like buffs and contingencies and has used up all of his spells before the fight, then yes, the fighter wins.

Well, there are still things like Clones and such that can at least negate death.

[Tiri]

If by perfect, you mean the wizard has nothing up like buffs and contingencies and has used up all of his spells before the fight, then yes, the fighter wins.

No, he doesn't. Even an only decently-optimised wizard can just teleport behind the fighter as he charges and cast Shapechange or Time Stop.

Then the wizard wins.

[Thejugman]

Well, there are still things like Clones and such that can at least negate death.


No, he doesn't. Even an only decently-optimised wizard can just teleport behind the fighter as he charges and cast Shapechange or Time Stop.

Then the wizard wins.

Well, those are things that I also meant the Wizard does not have in a perfect fight. I am talking about a not optimized at all Wizard. Sorry for not being more specific. Also, I am sure there are some or a few situations where the Fighter can handily beat the Wizard. It happens all the time in fiction. Wizards are not gods like I have seen some people on this board and other sites make them out to be.

[Inevitability]

I see :smallfrown:
That's kinda unfair.

Well, that's 3.5 for you.

[Cenric]

If the wizard is naked and unconscious in a field (after a big night out), would a fully equipped fighter be able to kill him then?

Now Im imagining an unconcious wizard using solely contingencies fighting a fighter and I think the wizard still wins unless he blew through all of them in his all night rager

[pupaeted]

Well, an unconscious naked wizard wouldn't have any of his contingency foci with him, so those spells wouldn't activate. It still seems like if a wizard is foolish enough to get into that situation, he's easy picking for any fighter that can sneak past his familiar.

[GrayDeath]

I see :smallfrown:
That's kinda unfair.

Well, if you put them against each other at Level 1 and without the Wizard knowing what he will face, its the other way around.

Thats the Linear/Quadratic problem for you.....

[Karl Aegis]

Quadratic Wizard takes off at level 1. Linear Fighter never stood a chance.

Wizard 20 doesn't need any optimization beyond Intellect 19 and one casting of Shapechange to beat a fighter 20. Feel free to do anything you want to with the rest of your build.

[Eldariel]

Well, those are things that I also meant the Wizard does not have in a perfect fight. I am talking about a not optimized at all Wizard. Sorry for not being more specific. Also, I am sure there are some or a few situations where the Fighter can handily beat the Wizard. It happens all the time in fiction. Wizards are not gods like I have seen some people on this board and other sites make them out to be.

Basically no Wizard in fiction is anywhere near level 20 Wizard's power, excepting actual D&D Wizards. And those Wizards do indeed basically never die. They tend to only die when opposed by other Wizards in similar levels, and being caught in a bind. Off the top of my head I remember Otiluke (Greyhawk) dying but only because all his clones were simultaneously destroyed and he was overcome by another near-epic Wizard (Rary) who had prepared for the encounter.

Simply put, the Fighter-class is poorly designed and does not meaningfully interact with things the Wizard does. All Fighter gets is some BAB, saves, HP and damage. None of that changes the paradigm of how they fight a Wizard. A level 1 Fighter is about as good at is as a level 20 Fighter while a level 20 Wizard plays a whole different game than a level 1 Wizard. Like, a Wizard barely even needs to meet a Fighter. He can just send Gated/Bound epic monstrosities, Simulacrums, Astral Projections, etc. until the Fighter dies. They don't even need to be on the same plane. There's little to no reason for a Wizard to even fight a Fighter. Fighter can't do things that matter on those levels of play.

[eggynack]

Well, if you put them against each other at Level 1 and without the Wizard knowing what he will face, its the other way around.

Thats the Linear/Quadratic problem for you.....
It's not massively fighter favorable though, the way the 20th level competition is. A lot of it is going to come down to initiative, and wizards can actually be better at initiative than fighters if they want. Add in abrupt jaunt, and it might not even be fighter favorable at all. It becomes more in favor of the fighter if you consider the problem later in the day though. And, of course, fighting is what fighters are best at, so whatever the results in a direct arena fight, the fighter is definitely behind outside of combat. One of the true tragedies of linear/quadratic in this game is that it's not even all that true. Low level fighters and wizards are more or less balanced, with each class having different and meaningful advantages over the other. And then wizards increase in power in quadratic fashion from there.

[OldTrees1]

I see :smallfrown:
That's kinda unfair.

Yes, it is. It is an intentional/unintentional design flaw in D&D 3.5. As a result some DMs take efforts to attempt to fix/patch/repair this flaw in a variety of different ways.

[King of Nowhere]

I think a better question is:

how unprepared must the wizard be for the fighter to be able to take him?

because of course if the wizard is prepared he's going to win (i don't know about the naked and unconscious part, that would require plenty of spells I don't know from splatbooks). but if the fighter managed to avoid alerting the wizard (possibly by always being under some kind of mind blank spells) and he can somehow teleport into the wizard's tower when said wizard is not expecting a fight, the fighter should directly kill the wizard in a single attack. So what is the highest amount of optimization that a wizard can have while still giving the fighter a chance?

EDIT: also, another related question is: how skilled the players must be? because wizards are better in the hands of skilled players. among unskilled players, the wizard will not have any contingency, will probably cast maximized fireball at the fighter and die a couple rounds later. For example, I am definitely not a professional roleplayer, and at the best of my skill, a fighter could still take a wizard with some luck and good preparation.

[Eldariel]

I think a better question is:

how unprepared must the wizard be for the fighter to be able to take him?

because of course if the wizard is prepared he's going to win (i don't know about the naked and unconscious part, that would require plenty of spells I don't know from splatbooks). but if the fighter managed to avoid alerting the wizard (possibly by always being under some kind of mind blank spells) and he can somehow teleport into the wizard's tower when said wizard is not expecting a fight, the fighter should directly kill the wizard in a single attack. So what is the highest amount of optimization that a wizard can have while still giving the fighter a chance?

Nigh' nil. The Wizard who can be killed by such a Fighter would've already died a hundred times to various powerful outsiders, other high level casters or such. Really, what can a Fighter do that a Cleric couldn't? Cleric can teleport himself, buff himself to Fighter-stature or higher beforehand, Scry the Wizard, approach under Time Stop, Dispel the Wizard's defenses and then oneshot him. Of course, that's unlikely to work but it's strictly better than anything a Fighter could do. Hell, a single Gated Balor could do all of that and then some. That's just one 9th level spell. A level 20 Fighter is worth less than a single 9th level spell slot.

[King of Nowhere]

Nigh' nil. The Wizard who can be killed by such a Fighter would've already died a hundred times to various powerful outsiders, other high level casters or such.

That's a matter involving optimization. In a world with lower optimization (say, because the players are not that skilled) any wizard would be "poorly optimized" by someone else's standards. So, it mostly boils down to players skill level.


Really, what can a Fighter do that a Cleric couldn't? Cleric can teleport himself, buff himself to Fighter-stature or higher beforehand, Scry the Wizard, approach under Time Stop, Dispel the Wizard's defenses and then oneshot him. Of course, that's unlikely to work but it's strictly better than anything a Fighter could do. Hell, a single Gated Balor could do all of that and then some. That's just one 9th level spell. A level 20 Fighter is worth less than a single 9th level spell slot.
but the buffed cleric can be neutralized by disjunction. a fighter still remains functional under those circumstances. so there's at least a little bit that the fighter can do :)

[OldTrees1]

I think a better question is:

how unprepared must the wizard be for the fighter to be able to take him?

The wizard must be vulnerable in the following 3 manners:
1) The wizard must be vulnerable to defeat via the Fighter's offense(which is not merely damage no matter how popular that myth is).
2) The wizard must be vulnerable to exposure to the Fighter's offense(typically it means no barriers and a short enough encounter distance)
3) The wizard must be vulnerable to encountering the Fighter(planar barriers is one of the common hurdles to encounters but even being in a different country can be bad enough)

Going into further detail would cause a massive overestimating/underestimating derailment. However suffice to say, it basically boils down to the Wizard not selecting any "You won't lose" options.

[Pleh]

When you say that both combatants are perfectly aware of each other and take time to prepare, that's pretty much when the Fighter no longer can win in any way. The wizard can prepare all kinds of spells that make martial combat moot (much more so in combination with each other).

Contingency by itself almost means the Fighter can't win, because you can have the Contingency be that the wizard somehow loses, then a spell pops and the game is back on/turned the other way.

The only hope a fighter has is catching the wizard unprepared, and a 20th level wizard has prepared for just about anything, at any time, especially a simple Fighter. Divination and abjuration almost make that impossible

[ryu]

That's a matter involving optimization. In a world with lower optimization (say, because the players are not that skilled) any wizard would be "poorly optimized" by someone else's standards. So, it mostly boils down to players skill level.

but the buffed cleric can be neutralized by disjunction. a fighter still remains functional under those circumstances. so there's at least a little bit that the fighter can do :)

No. The cleric can be moderately inconvenienced by disjunction. He still has most of the things the fighter has for free, but more importantly the ability to retaliate with spells on his turn. Similarly I take umbrage with the argument that a fighter remains functional in ANY circumstances.

[Eldariel]

but the buffed cleric can be neutralized by disjunction. a fighter still remains functional under those circumstances. so there's at least a little bit that the fighter can do :)

A Disjoined Fighter is like to lose all his magic items. A Fighter without magic items is little more than a commoner. Indeed, a non-magical Fighter has barely any chances against any actual monsters they might encounter. A better way to approach scenario where you have to operate without magic is to outsource/use underlings. What's the most powerful thing without magic? Mighty martial monsters, of course. So things you can Animate Dead, Planar Bind, Planar Ally, Gate, Simulacrum, etc. That's how you approach non-magic situations; not with Fighters but with expendable, actually powerful things that can get the job done without you having to enter the area that makes PC abilities not function (since no high level PC, Fighter or Wizard, is in any way, shape or form competent without magic from either items, spells or both).

Really, the difference between a level 20 Cleric and a level 20 Fighter is 5 BAB and average 21 HP. And a bunch of feats, but sadly the list of actually useful ones is quite short unless you're Dark Chaos Shuffling or something. Hell, Cleric even gets some special Domain-abilities and a good Will-save out of the deal (yes, there are extraordinary Will-targeting effects - Cloakers for instance) - it's not like a Fighter is significantly better than a Cleric in a world with no magic. Then account for the fact that Cleric can literally use a standard action to produce a Fighter++ each turn and it becomes fairly obvious that a Cleric actually wears Fighter like a scarf.


And that's not only because level 9 spells are bull****. That's also because level 20 Fighter doesn't get anything. Like, level 20 Fighter should at least be able to interrupt actions around him in a wide area, move like the wind, deflect/block spells, acquire some degree of magic immunity, protect allies, ignore weather effects and various other minor nonsense, cut through force barriers, smash through solid rock, etc. And notice invisible things, be superperceptive, extremely durable to the point of absurdity, etc. But he isn't. AD&D 2e Player's Options Fighter is just way, way better for example. Or Warblade. Core Fighter is just a poorly designed class; they didn't give him what he should have.

[King of Nowhere]

ok, think of the following situation: the wizard is out in the open, without any particular defence except his normal ones. just because he's a powerful wizard, it doesn't mean he can't enjoy a stroll in the park once in a while, or be out for some mundane reason. of course he's buffed with defensive spells (only with long durations, since he's going to be out for a while) and has some contingency (wasn't there a limit of one contingency active at any time, however?), but he does not know that somebody is going to attack him; he is merely buffed for prudence. He prepared his spells without expecting any specific encounter. the fighter (or barbarian) was planning for such an occasion, and he has somehow escaped the wizard's attention (maybe the wizard was only looking at other wizards as meaningful rivals). he has brought activated items for just such an occasion, and he has also generally devoted his build to fighting spellcasters; he has hired some low level casters to give him all kinds of useful bufffs before the fight. His magic auras are hidden by some cloaking. the wizard will only become aware of the fighter as he jumps out of a bush charging - or using an activated item. Under those circumstances, can the fighter prevail?

Second version: the fighter has also hired some low level caster to use some low level debuffs, like dimensional anchor or silence, so the fighter is effectively saving an action or two here.

[Mrark]

So why should I keep playing my character? since everybody is saying that he is totally worthless, i should just change it with a spellcaster and greet everybody.:annoyed:
Isn't there any version of this game where classes are more balanced?

[LordOfCain]

A warblade can be a versatile mundane melee combatant, is better at magekilling than fighters, and is available free online. I suggest you use that instead to keep the same theme.

[Vhaidara]

So why should I keep playing my character? since everybody is saying that he is totally worthless, i should just change it with a spellcaster and greet everybody.:annoyed:
Isn't there any version of this game where classes are more balanced?

Hilarious imbalance is kind of the calling card of 3.x.

If you want to be relevant, look more towards classes from later in 3.5's lifespan: Tome of Battle, Magic of Incarnum, the Factotum from Dungeonscape, the Dragonfire Adept from Dragon Magic.

If you want a balanced game, the version you want is the fourth, not the third and a half

[Eldariel]

So why should I keep playing my character? since everybody is saying that he is totally worthless, i should just change it with a spellcaster and greet everybody.:annoyed:
Isn't there any version of this game where classes are more balanced?

The lower level you go, the better Fighters are. But yes, if you plan to go past level 10, either everybody or nobody should be playing T1 spellcasters. That's just how the system is designed. Take literally any other edition of D&D and they do this better. Or any other game. Or use an auxiliary book like Tome of Battle as a bandaid to bring the warrior classes a bit closer to relevance - still not as powerful but at least they get their own shtick and become reasonably competent at what they do. Honestly, the best thing you can do in 3.5 is to use as much material as possible. Warblade is way better than Fighter already.


I've played Fighter X/Wizard 1/Arcane Archer in a party with full casters. Everyone newbies, game started on level 1. It was at level 13 when the differences were so obvious that it was impossible to deny the fact that I really wasn't relevant - I attacked with bow or melee (TWF + Manyshot/Rapid Shot, decent options on all fronts and lots of magic gear) and did my stuff. But when that didn't work (such as vs. Ragewalker [MM3]), I was useless. And when we got into an argument, I was in a Forcecage. I'd basically need a ~10k consumable magic item to negate a single one of those. Its casting cost like 1500gp. There was no semblance of balance in that game; even played with next to no finesse, our 8-man party was basically Cleric, Wizard and a bunch of stage props.

Same goes for the game where we played a duo party; Ultimate Magus and Dervish (he started with a Warlock but switched midway through and thus broke the game). Fact was, a single one of his spells was as powerful as my whole character. He used Planar Binding for a Glabrezu (his build was Wizard/Nar Demonbinder/Ultimate Magus) and the Glabrezu was literally my character + a couple of 6th-7th level SLAs. It really didn't matter whether I came along or not.

[Zanos]

If the wizard is naked and unconscious in a field (after a big night out), would a fully equipped fighter be able to kill him then?
Sure, assuming that:

1. The Wizard forgot to employ bodyguards, either planar binding, dominated persons, animated undead, constructs, or any of his other various forms of minionmancy,
2. The Wizard forgot to cast any long duration buffs that render him invulnerable or highly resistant to most forms of material harm,
3. The Wizard forgot to create any crafted contingencies to save himself,
4. The Wizard forgot to use an astral projection, and went out on a bender with his real body,
5. The Wizard forgot to create a clone or other resurrective method to render his actual death moot.

Spells are vastly more potent and versatile than having a large attack bonus and bonus fighter feats. If a stock fighter kills a wizard, it's because the wizard forgot to actually use his class features.


So why should I keep playing my character? since everybody is saying that he is totally worthless, i should just change it with a spellcaster and greet everybody.:annoyed:
Isn't there any version of this game where classes are more balanced?
4th edition, although that edition has other issues.

That said, D&D is not a competitive game and most NPC wizards in my experience aren't played to this capability. Fighter is not a great class even within it's own area of expertise, but that doesn't mean you can't enjoy playing one and that they don't have a place in some groups. If your DM or other players wizards spend every round casting fireball, party balance isn't really a big issue. And the best PC wizards are those that buff the fighters anyway.

[eggynack]

So why should I keep playing my character? since everybody is saying that he is totally worthless, i should just change it with a spellcaster and greet everybody.:annoyed:
Isn't there any version of this game where classes are more balanced?
Sure. Just ban everything above a certain tier, or otherwise trust the casters to not actively overshadow you. To the latter point, a caster tossing out a haste might be adding more to the damage equation than you do stabbing enemies using that buff, but you're still taking an active role in things, and it doesn't feel like you're just out of the game. The same applies to battlefield control spells, because you're the one making use of the advantage the caster brings about. There's value to knowing that the fighter is a lot weaker than some classes, but that value doesn't necessarily have to be that you don't play fighters.

[King of Nowhere]

That said, D&D is not a competitive game and most NPC wizards in my experience aren't played to this capability. Fighter is not a great class even within it's own area of expertise, but that doesn't mean you can't enjoy playing one and that they don't have a place in some groups. If your DM or other players wizards spend every round casting fireball, party balance isn't really a big issue. And the best PC wizards are those that buff the fighters anyway.

Oh, another good question (aside from the scenario to which nobody answered yet): take two wizards against a wizard and a fighter. is the value of a wizard buffing a fighter comparable to that of two wizards? can the fighter find his role there, as support for the wizard?

[OldTrees1]

So why should I keep playing my character? since everybody is saying that he is totally worthless, i should just change it with a spellcaster and greet everybody.:annoyed:
Isn't there any version of this game where classes are more balanced?

Why should you keep playing your character?

I love warrior characters despite the game system being imbalanced.

First, my table is not imbalanced. Nobody is playing an unrestrained Wizard, despite there being a Wizard PC on occasion.
Second, I found ways to make my warrior be able to do what I want them to be capable of doing. (I will expand upon this if you ask)
Third, I find there to be qualitative differences in the mechanical textures of the classes. One class being merely stronger than another would not cause me to change to a texture I disliked.


However if your group is okay with limiting your options, there are subsets of 3rd edition that are more balanced. Classes in Tiers 3, 4, & 5 play very well together.

[Zanos]

Oh, another good question (aside from the scenario to which nobody answered yet): take two wizards against a wizard and a fighter. is the value of a wizard buffing a fighter comparable to that of two wizards? can the fighter find his role there, as support for the wizard?
A fighter has a better chassis(Full Bab, d10, combat feats) to receive buffs than another wizard, but double the spells is mechanically better than wizard+fighter if leveraged appropriately.

Fighter is a poor measuring stick, because even WotC seemed to agree that it wasn't particularly good when the published Tome of Battle.

[Eldariel]

Oh, another good question (aside from the scenario to which nobody answered yet): take two wizards against a wizard and a fighter. is the value of a wizard buffing a fighter comparable to that of two wizards? can the fighter find his role there, as support for the wizard?

Two Wizards can produce numerous Fighter++s with their abilities. Then buff those Fighter++s. Getting a bunch more Fighter++ is better than getting one Fighter, so this is kind of a foregone conclusion. In general, the value of a class in combat is determined by how powerful and how many actions they have. With all the options of Shapechange and the power that is Gate/Time Stop/etc. at their disposal, a high level Wizard's actions have almost no comparison, and they have means to access multiples each round while warrior classes are restricted to one. Thus, it's not even a comparison. Would you rather buff a Fighter or a Solar? Or something using Shapechange? The most powerful warriors are again monsters - thus, the best mileage out of buffs is to wield and buff monsters.

But as stated, this is also the Fighter-class being horrible. Even just Barbarian is already way better - it at least does something decently even if it level scales poorly. The late 3.5 classes like Warblade, Crusader, Factotum, Totemist and company are way better already. In a vacuum the buff value is still nothing compared to having more level 9 spells daily and per round, but the buff value comes into play in parties with mixed classes - then the casters can be teamplayers by not doing everything by themselves but acting through teammate proxies instead and letting the warrior classes get their spotlight as well. And of course, the lower level we talk about, the less omnipotent a caster is.

[Gusmo]

If buffs are taken into consideration, then the fighter doesn't even really have a chassis advantage, when you consider the wizard can have shapechange going (I would consider mind blank, foresight, shapechange, and veil of undeath from the Spell Comp. the minimum buff setup). Unless you're going to let the fighter obtain it from a magic item of some sort, but even then the wizard has a caster level advantage unless the fighter is paying a premium for a high CL version of a shapechange item.

Regardless, in general, the fighter is hosed. When the wizard walks into the fight in the form of a solar, there's a very limited number of ways that the fighter has to overcome a solar's regeneration, and I can't think of any that aren't easy for the wizard to counter. And then there's earth glide, and any number of other movement modes shapechange can grant which simply make it impossible for the fighter to even strike the wizard. Really, shapechange alone makes wizard vs. fighter moot until you start letting the fighter basically become a mini wizard with magic items.

[Doctor Despair]

Why should you keep playing your character?

I love warrior characters despite the game system being imbalanced....

Second, I found ways to make my warrior be able to do what I want them to be capable of doing. (I will expand upon this if you ask)




While I'm aware of all sorts of optimization options, I am curious, if only because of the clickbait :smalltongue: What do you want your warrior to be able to do and what avenues of play do you pursue to achieve that?

[digiman619]

Hi everyone. I am new and I am not a real pro player, so I'd like to know your opinion. Imagine a fight involving a fighter (warrior or barb) and a wizard. Both characters have an infinite amount of money and they are lvl 20 with their class levels. Both characters know they are going to face the other, so both will prepare in the best way. Is there any build and strategy which can give the fighter a considerable chance of winning, or the wizard is going to wreck him, no matter what he could possibly do? Both players are expert, and remember they could have any build they desire to get ready for the fight. Thanks for your time!:smallsmile:

In four words: "Not in 3rd Edition". Through a combination of the designers thinking magic was cool and fighters were OP (which even in 2nd Edition wasn't the case) and them completely underestimating the power they'd given the magic classes and overestimating the power of feats, this is a scenario that will ever happen outside of GM fiat.

[Tiri]

Well, those are things that I also meant the Wizard does not have in a perfect fight. I am talking about a not optimized at all Wizard. Sorry for not being more specific. Also, I am sure there are some or a few situations where the Fighter can handily beat the Wizard. It happens all the time in fiction. Wizards are not gods like I have seen some people on this board and other sites make them out to be.

Even if the wizard has no spells in your scenario, he can still have class features, like the Conjurer ACF that allows instant teleportation, and feats, like Chaotic Spell Recall, that can allow him to win the fight even if he is completely naked. Which he isn't, because you said nothing about equipment.

True, that's not the completely unoptimised wizard you appear to want, but by your original standards such a wizard is possible and would undoubtedly win.

Furthermore, if you want a completely unoptimised wizard it is only fair that he is pitted against a completely unoptimised fighter. In that case, the fighter goes up to the wizard, hits him with insufficient damage to kill him, then the wizard flies into the air and blasts the helpless fighter with Fireballs.

[Mechalich]

In four words: "Not in 3rd Edition". Through a combination of the designers thinking magic was cool and fighters were OP (which even in 2nd Edition wasn't the case) and them completely underestimating the power they'd given the magic classes and overestimating the power of feats, this is a scenario that will ever happen outside of GM fiat.

I think the completely underestimating the power they'd given the spellcasters is the biggest part. The game itself breaks down very rapidly from level 11 - when planar binding comes online - with any tier 1 casters involved, with combinations capable of effective godhood readily available by level 15 if not before. 3.X/PF simply cannot contain the capabilities of high-level tier 1 full casters - which is why PFS has a level cap right around the break point.

[OldTrees1]

While I'm aware of all sorts of optimization options, I am curious, if only because of the clickbait :smalltongue: What do you want your warrior to be able to do and what avenues of play do you pursue to achieve that?
I did not mean it as clickbait :smalltongue:


I want my warrior to be able to participate in all encounters rather than be occasionally sidelined.
I want my warrior have the mobility to engage level appropriate enemies while still bringing an offense that has impact.
I want my warrior to have a number of level appropriate tactical options for combat & some areas of proficiency outside of combat.
Mechanical Texture Preference: I prefer At-Will options(so maneuvers & spells are less ideal than equivalent alternatives).


To that end I use racial, class, & item features to create those options. This usually involves accepting heavy multiclassing. My last warrior was a Dragonborn Goliath Barbarian 2 / Martial Rogue 4 / Swordsage 2 / Warblade 1 / Scarlet Corsair 5 (not precisely that order but close) with a plethora of items from the list of necessary items.
Phoenix Cloak(MiC, 50Kgp)(Fly Perfect at land speed)
Third Eye Conceal(Mic, 120Kgp)(Mind Blank)
Banner of the Storm's Eye(MiC, 15Kgp)(Stun and Fear immunity aura)
Hathran Mask of True Seeing(UE, 75Kgp)(True Seeing)
Minor Cloak of Displacement(DMG, 24Kgp)(20% Miss Chance)
Ring of Blinking(DMG, 27K)(Blinking at will)
Dimension Stride Boots(MiC, 2Kgp)(Teleport 20ft 5/day)
Soulfire(BoED, +4Armor/25Kgp Bracers)(Immunity to Death Effects, Energy Drain, and Negative Levels)
Ring of Freedom of Movement(DMG, 40Kgp)(Freedom of Movement)
Dispelling + Greater Dispelling(MiC, +2Weapon/18Kgp Backup weapon)(3/day cl 5 targeted Dispel Magic, 3/day cl 10 targeted Dispel Magic)
Blindsighted(Und, +30Kgp weapon)(Blindsight 30ft)
Raptor's Mask(MiC, 3.5Kgp)(Immunity to Blindness)
Tooth of Leraje (ToM, 21.6Kgp)(1/day Greater Magic Weapon +5)
Cloak of Resistance +5 (DMG, 25Kgp)
534,850gp spent so far(under 19th level WBL)
+Ability Boosts
+Primary Weapon(would include some way of bypassing DR/magic, DR/damage type, DR/material, and DR/alignment, that might be the +2 Transmuting ability or Hank's Energy Bow)
+Primary Armor

Feats were spent on increasing the utility of the normal attack action(which can be used out of turn via AoO). Skills were spent on social skills & stealth skills. The Imperious Command feat is also involved.

In total, I am still looking to squeeze in a good way to travel across planar boundaries.

[digiman619]

I think the completely underestimating the power they'd given the spellcasters is the biggest part. The game itself breaks down very rapidly from level 11 - when planar binding comes online - with any tier 1 casters involved, with combinations capable of effective godhood readily available by level 15 if not before. 3.X/PF simply cannot contain the capabilities of high-level tier 1 full casters - which is why PFS has a level cap right around the break point.

Overestimating feats (and martials in general) is also a huge part of it because they balanced monsters past the capabilities of most of the martials. I mean, after level 11 it's even more exacerbated, but by CR 7 or so you get monsters that are virtually impossible for a party of only martials to tackle them. But yeah, undervaluing magic is the biggest part.

[Pleh]

So why should I keep playing my character? since everybody is saying that he is totally worthless, i should just change it with a spellcaster and greet everybody.:annoyed:
Isn't there any version of this game where classes are more balanced?

I actually prefer weaker characters, like Rogues and Rangers. It often forces me to play smarter, not just magic every problem into oblivion. I like rooting for the underdog. Overcoming the odds is far less satisfying when the odds weren't stacked against me.

Fighters are fun for smashing heads, so have fun making some interesting feat combos. Just do yourself a favor and take some prestige classes with access to Magic at some point.

[Efrate]

You have multiple items which occupy the same slot, and no mention of upgrading the items to be multipurpose. A minor nitpick. Easily doable within WBL.

Assuming equal resources though, nothing is stopping a wizard from having all of that PLUS spells/class features. Redundancy is nice, no reason not to have multiple overlaping immunity effects in action at once so if one somehow managed to get dispelled or disjuncted you have another. CL 10 greater dispel is not going to hit nearly any wizard buff, maybe a low level item. Its fairly trivial to pump CL to insanity so you cannot be easily dispelled by item based dispels short of custom items made by high level wizards.

You are relevant as long as your caster friends allow you to be. You have some of the tools needed to be useful, but you still fall behind any level appropriate summoned/bound monster and a spell or two. You have the tools to fight most non-well played casters well. You have flight, mind blank, freedom of movement, some teleportation and non-visual senses, and true seeing. You can actually fight things that are not well played casters at your level.

However, a well played caster still wins. Even just a blaster with a bit of forethought can beat you. Time stop and delayed blast fireball while very low op poses problems you cannot effectively deal with with what you have listed. Any type of mailman obliterates you. You cannot meaningfully do anything across planar boundaries, barring ethereal if you use hanks bow.

In actual play, barring your caster friends being a pain, you will do your job of being a distraction or outputting moderate dps after they have made then BBEG upside down, blind, ability scores near zero or zero, helpless, level drained, stat drained, deaf, exhausted, nauseated, with penalties to all their rolls, and such. You will be colossal sized with extra attacks and enough attack bonuses to dump it all into power attack so your damage output is somewhat relevant. You can very easily get the kill, but they will do most the work to set that up.

If they are good about it you won't notice it. And when the enemy hits you with any number of effects after stripping your protections since your casters sent you in first, they can summon another you to do your job until you become able to act effectively again. Like from the safety of another plane via astral projection and a bunch of other buffs so they are in no way threatened at all.

Then again, if your casters are more of yaay another fireball to cast! Then you will out preform them fairly easily.

[OldTrees1]

You have multiple items which occupy the same slot, and no mention of upgrading the items to be multipurpose. A minor nitpick. Easily doable within WBL.

If you were talking to me (it was not clear), then clearly you missed vital context.
1) That Wealth Calculation was with the merged items. The Items parts were stated separately for clarity to the person I was talking to.
2) The question I answered was "What do you want your warrior to be able to do and what avenues of play do you pursue to achieve that?". Somehow you failed to read it in the context and then presumed I was mistaken? Please reread posts #38, #42, & #46.

If you have something relevant to say that is in the context of those 3 posts, then I will respond to it.

[GiantFlyingHog]

If you are in some sort of field that completely nullifies magic. Unless it doesn't also block clone. Then the caster will just murder you the next day.

[CasualViking]

Your character has never even met an even remotely optimized level 17+ Wizard. Whatever it was you just met, even if you did manage to stab it to death, it's not going to be much of an inconvenience to the actual wizard.

[Inevitability]

If you are in some sort of field that completely nullifies magic. Unless it doesn't also block clone. Then the caster will just murder you the next day.

Assuming with 'field that completely nullifies magic' you mean 'antimagic field', there's Invoke Magic, Initiate of Mystra, and any number of other counters.

[eggynack]

Assuming with 'field that completely nullifies magic' you mean 'antimagic field', there's Invoke Magic, Initiate of Mystra, and any number of other counters.
One of those counters being to just leave the field, cause it's not that big, and cast any of the fancy spells that get through an AMF just fine into the thing.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Well, an unconscious naked wizard wouldn't have any of his contingency foci with him, so those spells wouldn't activate. It still seems like if a wizard is foolish enough to get into that situation, he's easy picking for any fighter that can sneak past his familiar.

You're thinking of the spell, which you can only have one of anyway. When you see people talk about contigencies (plural) on the same caster, they're talking about contingent spells resulting from the craft contingent spell feat, which have no focus and can only be removed by a successful dispelling.

You're limited to 1/HD though so the spent, naked wizard only has 20 of them but that's certainly enough to escape and -might- be enough to win the fight if they're just the right ones.


So why should I keep playing my character? since everybody is saying that he is totally worthless, i should just change it with a spellcaster and greet everybody.:annoyed:
Isn't there any version of this game where classes are more balanced?

"Worthless" is more than a bit hyperbolic.

First, a so-called perfect fight as you've described it simply does not happen without some fairly contrived happenings.

Second, playing a wizard to its absolute utmost is no simple task. I've been studying the game for years and still don't think I could extract 100% from one (though I suspect I'm in the upper 80's by now :smallwink:)

Third, even if the DM does know how to draw near full power out of a wizard, a good DM won't unless the players are equally savvy. It's his job to provide the PC's with a challenge not ROFL-stomp all over them.

Finally, it -is- possible for a martial type to defeat even a well played wizard if he approaches it right. It's unquestionably an uphill (more like up a sheer cliff-face) proposition but it -can- be done. Forget about even trying to be "fair" about it.

Now, to answer your question: you should keep playing your martial character because it's what you want to play. If you wanted unparalleled cosmic power, you'd play a wizard or a cleric. You seem, I suspect, to want to smash things in the face with a stick. There's nothing wrong with that and a good DM will facilitate you doing that. Hell, I still like playing a straight fighter even though I've long since -known- just how little power one has in the grand scheme of things.

Balance isn't that important so don't worry about it.

[King of Nowhere]

A few more things to add:

1) people here are referring to extremely overpowered spells from obscure splatbooks (at least, they are obscure to the op, and they are also obscure to me, who happen to be his DM, so those kind of chain contingencies and stuff working in anti magic field is not going to exist in the world where we play). splatbooks actually exacerbate the balance problems, because different feats allowed fighters to be different fighters, but wizards got to choose and became more powerful. it also widened the gap between wizards and sorcerors. the fight is much more balanced (though still in the wizard favor) if the setting is restricted mostly to core

2) all those spells like gate and planar ally cost xp. how much xp can a wizard be willing to sacrifice regularly? yes, i know winning the fight will ear more xp than were lost, but if your fine fighter friend can take care of the matter without you giving up any xp or expensive material components, all the better

3) all those theories on how the wizard will fight rely on the assumption that the wizard, through divination, learned exactly what he's going to face and prepared perfectly for it. if the threat somehow escaped the wizard's attention, a wizard with the wrong spell selection can be beaten.

[ExLibrisMortis]

You're thinking of the spell, which you can only have one of anyway. When you see people talk about contigencies (plural) on the same caster, they're talking about contingent spells resulting from the craft contingent spell feat, which have no focus and can only be removed by a successful dispelling.

You're limited to 1/HD though so the spent, naked wizard only has 20 of them but that's certainly enough to escape and -might- be enough to win the fight if they're just the right ones.
To expand on this answer: Craft Contingent Spell is nuts by itself, but it gets worse. A wizard can have more contingencies through minionmancy. For example, applying crafted contingencies to symbionts, or hordes of Fine minions. Typically, Fine creatures have few HD, but appropriate shrinking can get you Fine great wyrm dragons with 30+ contingencies each.


@King of Nowere: 1) The classic 'broken wizard' spells include wish, shapechange/polymorph any object, planar binding/gate, mind blank, foresight, and even a few direct attack spells, like forcecage. These are all PHB spells. Tier 1 casters do not rely on "spells from obscure splatbooks" to be t1. Sometimes, a splatbook spell cuts corners, but core t1 casters are still t1.

2) Nested thought bottles turn a small amount of XP into a large amount of XP, for the purposes of crafting, anyhow. Then there's exotic stuff like ambrosia/liquid Pain farms, and TO-broken stuff like supernatural wish.

3) Tell that to my googols of contingencies, says Khepri, the Living Scourge (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19299172&postcount=59)! (Khepri is built using a sorcerer base, but works equally well with a wizard base. It is not my build, but AvatarVecna's, as should be clear from that post.)

[Eldariel]

A few more things to add:

1) people here are referring to extremely overpowered spells from obscure splatbooks (at least, they are obscure to the op, and they are also obscure to me, who happen to be his DM, so those kind of chain contingencies and stuff working in anti magic field is not going to exist in the world where we play). splatbooks actually exacerbate the balance problems, because different feats allowed fighters to be different fighters, but wizards got to choose and became more powerful. it also widened the gap between wizards and sorcerors. the fight is much more balanced (though still in the wizard favor) if the setting is restricted mostly to core

Splatbooks nearly negate the difference between Sorcerer and Wizard since Sorcerers get many more ways to learn new spells known through items and some unique spells that are not available to Wizards that easily. Far as Fighter goes, Core Fighter gets nothing. +2 to hit, +4 to damage. That's it. Out of Core, Fighter can at least charge for 500 damage, stop anyone from casting within their threatened area (in Core, it's just a trivial Concentration-check where even caster bonuses are greater than the DC), intimidate people into cowering in fear, etc. Basically, out of Core a Fighter (or any martial class) gets abilities. In Core, they don't.

A level 20 Fighter can't even oneshot a Wizard with no defenses without mounted charge - that's how bad they are. They can't full attack and move. They can't do damage without full attack. They are completely dysfunctional. Meanwhile a Core Wizard still has Shapechange, Time Stop, Disjunction, Gate, Moment of Prescience, Contingency, Foresight, Polymorph Any Object, Animate Dead, Planar Binding, Simulacrum, etc. All the world-changing spells. Relish and enjoy them and see how the party deals with a single high level caster sending essentially their class features at them daily. No need to award XP as they're all a part of the caster's CR.

Yeah, casters get more options but their core options are largely better than all of those (with few major exceptions that you can just ban). Or just restrict spells to Core and allow everything else. That's fine too, though again, all the superbroken spells are Core.


2) all those spells like gate and planar ally cost xp. how much xp can a wizard be willing to sacrifice regularly? yes, i know winning the fight will ear more xp than were lost, but if your fine fighter friend can take care of the matter without you giving up any xp or expensive material components, all the better

Planar Binding doesn't. There are also ways to bypass the XP costs (mostly involving getting some creature with SLA do it for you or Shapechanging into something with it as a Su ability or some such). And losing XP can cost you a level which means you gain more XP which means you catch up. And frankly, you'd rather have a second Wizard casting Shapechange any day of the week. It's not contest. Shapechange alone is 10 min/level better than any non-full caster class. Note that it only has a focus so one-time 1500gp investment means all the Shapechange you ever want.


3) all those theories on how the wizard will fight rely on the assumption that the wizard, through divination, learned exactly what he's going to face and prepared perfectly for it. if the threat somehow escaped the wizard's attention, a wizard with the wrong spell selection can be beaten.

Na, the generalist spells are more than good enough for 99% of the enemies. You need specialist spells only to deal with things anything else couldn't hope to defeat. Again, Shapechange alone means you don't even need spell slots to defeat vast majority of the things you may encounter. E.g. having a nice Skeleton Hydra goes a long way towards munching up random things you might need to deal with. Also, casters can take the initiative to accomplish goals. Need to acquire an item? Scry it and the surroundings, Teleport to it, get it. Need to stop a BBEG? Study it through magic, attack it. They can also protect themselves in extradimensional spaces and act through proxies. This is the crux of the matter. For mobility, information gathering and macro-level protection, it's all magic.

The greatest reason this edition is basically caster-edition that casters on high levels are agentive - they are a party capable of taking the initiative to accomplish their goals. Whether they have some warriors to bring along or not is kinda one and the same. Undead, Bound monsters, Golems and so on do about the same job - better or worse, but good enough. And yes, they cost, but they last until you let them die (except in the case of Bound monsters; they agree to service with a Charisma-check so simple Moment of Prescience ensures success regardless of terms) so you can assemble quite the legion if you so desire.


And frankly, if the DM has to engineer a superunlikely, specific scenario for the caster to perform poorly, that already says a lot about the whole circumstances. If those scenarios are exceedingly rare, they should come up exceedingly rarely. Like a world where every location is Dead Magic Zone would **** everyone up and be pretty strange for a D&D world.

[Kelb_Panthera]

A few more things to add:

1) people here are referring to extremely overpowered spells from obscure splatbooks (at least, they are obscure to the op, and they are also obscure to me, who happen to be his DM, so those kind of chain contingencies and stuff working in anti magic field is not going to exist in the world where we play). splatbooks actually exacerbate the balance problems, because different feats allowed fighters to be different fighters, but wizards got to choose and became more powerful. it also widened the gap between wizards and sorcerors. the fight is much more balanced (though still in the wizard favor) if the setting is restricted mostly to core

Um... No. Force cage, solid fog, resilient sphere, wall of <anything>; all core spells that make a warrior's day really suck. Restricting to core makes it orders of magnitude worse for the warrior.

The gains made by non-casters from non-core sources are leaps and bounds greater than those made by casters. The gap was just so big in core that it doesn't matter at all. Even if you limit the casters to core only and let the non-casters have everything, the casters -still- come out ahead.

Also note that the things that penetrate antimagic fields, instantaneous conjurations, are available in core (hail storm, off the top of my head). The rule is in the PHB in the very description of the spell. Telekinesis can penetrate too by flinging completely mundane objects at the warded target.


2) all those spells like gate and planar ally cost xp. how much xp can a wizard be willing to sacrifice regularly? yes, i know winning the fight will ear more xp than were lost, but if your fine fighter friend can take care of the matter without you giving up any xp or expensive material components, all the better

The calling spell of choice is planar binding which has no XP component. Some of the things you can bind have spells that -would- cost XP as SLA's and can cast them on the wizard's behalf at no cost. It's not as foolproof as some would tout but it -is- a viable option and it gets really ugly for the wizard's foes if it goes well.

That said, XP is a river. If a wizard is one level lower than the rest of the party, encounters yield him extra XP that he can spend as he will. If you wanted to change it to fighter 20 vs wizard 19, it wouldn't make an appreciable difference in the outcome.


3) all those theories on how the wizard will fight rely on the assumption that the wizard, through divination, learned exactly what he's going to face and prepared perfectly for it. if the threat somehow escaped the wizard's attention, a wizard with the wrong spell selection can be beaten.

The OP specified that both parties were aware of and prepared for the opponent. This point is moot.

That said, normal contingency for teleport to a safe location triggered by a specific verbal command (not command word) and the day(s) it takes the fighter to get to him are more than adequate to prepare the -right- spells and return to crush the fighter. Unless it's something like a formal duel, this is not -just- theory. It's a triviality.




Now these things are not absolutely insurmountable but you have to be -really- familiar with wizardry and WBL-mancy and a decent strategist/tactician. I can't speak to the latter two but you're clearly not terribly familiar with high-level wizardry.

[Vhaidara]

The gains made by non-casters from non-core sources are leaps and bounds greater than those made by casters. The gap was just so big in core that it doesn't matter at all. Even if you limit the casters to core only and let the non-casters have everything, the casters -still- come out ahead.

I can never remember the exact quote, but i remember it went something like this:

Core Wizard vs Core Fighter is an attack helicopter vs a grizzly bear.
Full Splat Wizard vs Full Splat Fighter is an attack helicopter with missiles and a cloaking system vs a mutant cyborg grizzly bear that spits acid.

The fighter still loses, but at least he gets to look really cool while doing it.

[Eldariel]

I implore you, King of Nowhere, spend time to familiarize yourself with what core casters are capable of. That's the best way to see for yourself - instead of creating hypothetical situations where X might happen or denying statements about the game, put them to the test. Just have an enemy caster Scrying the party, attack through Projected Images and Astral Projections, send hordes of Commanded Undead, Animated Dead, SLA-using Simulacrums and Planar Bound monsters at the party, fighting from extradimensional spaces while sipping quality (Polymorph Any Object + Prestidigitationed) wine in his Magnificent Mansion never showing up personally. That way you can test the extent of caster power and the options to fight it. See how the party tries to deal with it. Like, a hostile organization/BBEG hired a mercenary Wizard to dispose of the party. Play out the scenario.

Hell, it might be interesting to try and run a high level campaign where the BBEG a hostile Wizard and see in how many different ways with just his spells he can make the life of the party hell. Even though he's just a single equal level character. It's very possible for a single Wizard using nothing but his spells to produce threats that are a serious challenge for a full party. Hell, a single Wizard can easily be a TPK many times over. And the word "Wizard" is almost interchangeable with Cleric or Druid in this case. Or even Sorcerer.

[King of Nowhere]

I implore you, King of Nowhere, spend time to familiarize yourself with what core casters are capable of. That's the best way to see for yourself - instead of creating hypothetical situations where X might happen or denying statements about the game, put them to the test.
hey, i did put them to the test, and I was always severely limited by the stuff i mentioned. it simply means I'm not good at doing batman wizard. probably it is because i see it from the point of virew of the wizard's foes: for everything the wizard does, there is generally some preparation that can counter it (again, only for stuff i know how to do), and I tend to assume that the other guys will have it; I can see the paradox of having the people that go fighting against the wizard to be more prepared than the wizard.

[Kelb_Panthera]

hey, i did put them to the test, and I was always severely limited by the stuff i mentioned. it simply means I'm not good at doing batman wizard. probably it is because i see it from the point of virew of the wizard's foes: for everything the wizard does, there is generally some preparation that can counter it (again, only for stuff i know how to do), and I tend to assume that the other guys will have it; I can see the paradox of having the people that go fighting against the wizard to be more prepared than the wizard.

The problem is that while you're correct that there are counters to anything a wizard can do, a non-caster can't afford to acquire the counters to -everything- a wizard can do. It's -much, much- easier for a wizard to adapt his strategy (literally just pick different spells tomorrow) than it is for his non-caster foes to do so (trading out gear at 2:1 value and -maybe- retraining if he levels).

[digiman619]

I can never remember the exact quote, but i remember it went something like this:

Core Wizard vs Core Fighter is an attack helicopter vs a grizzly bear.
Full Splat Wizard vs Full Splat Fighter is an attack helicopter with missiles and a cloaking system vs a mutant cyborg grizzly bear that spits acid.

The fighter still loses, but at least he gets to look really cool while doing it.

That's assuming the fighter actually manages to act. As mentioned above, it's trivially easy for a wizard to act first and obliterate them, or let them charge and teleport behind them and obliterate them.

[Studoku]

Probably not, given how many crafted contingent spells a Properly Optimised Wizard will have.
At the very least, this should include poofing back to his astral fortress when he does pass out.

[Vhaidara]

That's assuming the fighter actually manages to act. As mentioned above, it's trivially easy for a wizard to act first and obliterate them, or let them charge and teleport behind them and obliterate them.

I mean, a mutant cyborg grizzly spitting acid looks cooler than a normal grizzly just by showing up.

[Eldariel]

hey, i did put them to the test, and I was always severely limited by the stuff i mentioned. it simply means I'm not good at doing batman wizard. probably it is because i see it from the point of virew of the wizard's foes: for everything the wizard does, there is generally some preparation that can counter it (again, only for stuff i know how to do), and I tend to assume that the other guys will have it; I can see the paradox of having the people that go fighting against the wizard to be more prepared than the wizard.

Precisely - it will be pointless to use a BBEG while thinking of how to counter it. When you play the Wizard, become the Wizard. Let the enemies show if they have countermeasures for anything you happen to do. Place the onus of proof on them, not yourself. If you want to understand how to fight something, you have to first understand how that something works. Thus, you have to delve into being that something and comprehending the limits of their abilities and why they should do what they should do. It's not that you're not good at it - it's just that your premises prevent you from drawing upon the character's true power.

[pupaeted]

It's starting to sound like that while wizards are more powerful than fighters, the only thing that rules out it actually being a fight is craft contingent spell, and no wonder - having 20 standard actions' worth of spells happen automatically on an event you might not even be aware of is ridonk. Without that, it seems like a clever and sneaky mundane character might at least have a chance to get a shot off?

[Deadline]

It's starting to sound like that while wizards are more powerful than fighters, the only thing that rules out it actually being a fight is craft contingent spell, and no wonder - having 20 standard actions' worth of spells happen automatically on an event you might not even be aware of is ridonk. Without that, it seems like a clever and sneaky mundane character might at least have a chance to get a shot off?

A simple contingency spell will also do it, as far as hitting a time-out button to come back completely prepared. Barring that, use one of the many no-save just lose spells that a wizard should prepare as part of their default daily load-out to end the fight? Or, given the fighter in the OP, cast something simple like ... Fly?

But yeah, the level at which this confrontation takes place really matters. At levels 1-4, the wizard has far fewer options to outright win (although there are several, Abrupt Jaunt stymies an Ubercharger for example), but the mundane is likewise constricted. But most of the chance element is there in the low levels before a Wizard gains access to things that eliminate the chance entirely from the equation.

[Flickerdart]

It's starting to sound like that while wizards are more powerful than fighters, the only thing that rules out it actually being a fight is craft contingent spell, and no wonder - having 20 standard actions' worth of spells happen automatically on an event you might not even be aware of is ridonk. Without that, it seems like a clever and sneaky mundane character might at least have a chance to get a shot off?

Even without that, you have the basic contingency on yourself, a contingency on your familiar whom you shared the spell with, everything from foresight to Elven Generalist Hummingbird to nerveskitter to moment of prescience to shapechange into a dire tortoise to win initiative, much higher perception skills thanks to having INT and skill-boosting spells, having exotic senses through shapechanging magic, much better ability to act at range once battle is joined, etc.

The scenario for a non-magic character winning looks like this:

Identify the enemy spellcaster without him identifying you.
Approach to effective range without him identifying you. Avoid tripping his contigencies, defense spells, etc.
Kill him in one shot, because one is all you get.


When the caster is better than you at concealment and disguise, better than you at senses and detection, better than you at defense, and better than you at ranged offense...any one of these, never mind all three, is a long shot.

[Eldariel]

When the caster is better than you at concealment and disguise, better than you at senses and detection, better than you at defense, and better than you at ranged offense...any one of these, never mind all three, is a long shot.

Especially when the caster is also able to operate remotely, move instantaneously (it's very hard to keep up with someone Teleporting 500 miles per second on foot), has many options for negating damage, can trivially fly all day, can move through obstacles and walls, can carry his own personal army with him, etc.

Like, Wizard goes to a pub and you'd really like to attack him? Well, you'll have a darn hard time finding out which pub 'cause he can literally Teleport and Plane Shift to any pub on any plane and any town. Though it's also fully possible that the Wizard just Astrally Projected there which makes the whole point moot. Either way, point being, spellcasters' greatest advantage is strategic.


Need to find someone/thing? Be a caster.
Need to hide from someone? Be a caster.
Need to get somewhere? Be a caster.
Need to get something? Be caster.
Need to stop someone from getting somewhere? Be a caster.
Need to build a castle? Be a caster.
Need to build your own plane of existence? Be a caster.

On the operative level of acquiring McGuffins, finding the hostile party leaders and so on, casters on high levels basically play alone. On the combat level, well they can have a huge entourage as a part of their class features, and a number of all-day abilities before even accounting for their spellcasting prowess. And the important part is, a caster gets to pick which fights to fight. If they don't like their odds, they can always teleport away and come back another day - this is even a very logical and useful Contingency that can be activated at any point as a free action that can be taken out of turn order (since talking is such; and if you tie the trigger to just mouthing words you even avoid any sorts of Silence-effects). Unless the other party can find and trace them through 2000 miles or planar boundary or whatever they crossed in time (they won't unless they too can Teleport and have some ways to trace a target under Mind Blank).

[pupaeted]

Can you even get drunk through an astral projection?

[Eldariel]

Can you even get drunk through an astral projection?

Your Astral Projection can get drunk just fine. It has no special immunity to toxins - and since your mind is in it, you'll of course experience the whole thing. Though it obviously wouldn't affect your real body. Though what self-respecting Wizard would muddy their wits is another question entirely - I'd certainly ensure I'm immune to poison before going out to drink. Far as I'm concerned, the idea about tavern visits is that you enjoy social activity and watch everyone else make fools of themselves while you aren't least bit affected. :smallwink: Sipping some quality vintage, of course.

[icefractal]

A lot of the responses here are assuming a caster played to a very high degree of both optimization and preparations. In actual play, YMMV a lot. While with equal amounts of optimization on both sides, the caster is probably going to win, a low-op caster can be killed by a low-op Fighter if the latter gets the drop on them. And of course, a high-op Fighter is going to destroy a low-op caster. See the "Monk defeats all the Elder Evils in a row" thread, for example.

Also, while this doesn't affect the general comparison too much, I think the amount of preparations that casters are assumed (on this board) to have in place is a bit unrealistic. Casters are being played by human players with (usually) non-genius IQs and limited amounts of time to devote to the perfect use of contingencies and divinations. And the human is the one who actually has to make the choices - you can't just go:
DM: "What spells do you prepare?"
Player: *waves hand* "The best ones, whatever those are. I have Int 34!"
Same for contingencies and divinations - if you're playing D&D, the character doesn't do the thinking for you.

[Flickerdart]

A lot of the responses here are assuming a caster played to a very high degree of both optimization and preparations. In actual play, YMMV a lot. While with equal amounts of optimization on both sides, the caster is probably going to win, a low-op caster can be killed by a low-op Fighter if the latter gets the drop on them. And of course, a high-op Fighter is going to destroy a low-op caster. See the "Monk defeats all the Elder Evils in a row" thread, for example.

Also, while this doesn't affect the general comparison too much, I think the amount of preparations that casters are assumed (on this board) to have in place is a bit unrealistic. Casters are being played by human players with (usually) non-genius IQs and limited amounts of time to devote to the perfect use of contingencies and divinations. And the human is the one who actually has to make the choices - you can't just go:
DM: "What spells do you prepare?"
Player: *waves hand* "The best ones, whatever those are. I have Int 34!"
Same for contingencies and divinations - if you're playing D&D, the character doesn't do the thinking for you.

Well, duh. But "no, the wizard won't have a contingency because the player forgot" is not an argument that carries much weight when evaluating the capabilities of wizards.

[icefractal]

Well, duh. But "no, the wizard won't have a contingency because the player forgot" is not an argument that carries much weight when evaluating the capabilities of wizards.The capabilities, no, but the question in the OP was about the result of a fight between two characters. Obviously we can't answer for every possible combination, but if a Wizard will have the right preparations 30% of the time, that's much different than having them 100% of the time.

And while I think having a least one Contingency is a reasonable assumption (although the spell is Evocation, a commonly barred school, and the feat requires time to re-stock after use - barring NI techniques that turn the contest into "both sides have arbitrarily large amounts of power, the DM gives up on running it"), I don't think having a full set of 21 Contingencies all tuned to the ideal circumstances is a plausible scenario in most cases.

[Deadline]

The capabilities, no, but the question in the OP was about the result of a fight between two characters. Obviously we can't answer for every possible combination, but if a Wizard will have the right preparations 30% of the time, that's much different than having them 100% of the time.

Well, there's this bit from the OP:


Both characters know they are going to face the other, so both will prepare in the best way.

So I think Flickerdart is on the money on this one, at least according to what the OP was after.

[Gusmo]

Frankly, forget craft contingent spell, on the regular you still have access to contingency (plus another on your familiar, thanks to share spells), chain contingency from Tome and Blood (plus another on your familiar, thanks to share spells), and instant refuge from the Spell Compendium (which allows you to specify six separate trigger conditions!). Sure, if you want to go nuts craft contingent spell is there for you, but for me, forget contingencies of any kind, just give me shapechange. No fiddly arguments over trigger condition wording or anything, shapechange is blissfully straightforward. Just clear and unambiguous access to an utterly absurd number of powers which you can change as a free action every turn. For you AND your familiar, yay share spells!

[Melcar]

Hi everyone. I am new and I am not a real pro player, so I'd like to know your opinion. Imagine a fight involving a fighter (warrior or barb) and a wizard. Both characters have an infinite amount of money and they are lvl 20 with their class levels. Both characters know they are going to face the other, so both will prepare in the best way. Is there any build and strategy which can give the fighter a considerable chance of winning, or the wizard is going to wreck him, no matter what he could possibly do? Both players are expert, and remember they could have any build they desire to get ready for the fight. Thanks for your time!:smallsmile:

No way in hell!

[Doctor Awkward]

I've gone over this before, but I'll cut an paste it to this thread too for convenience.

The Setup:

Start with a Gray Elf (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/elf.htm#grayElf), stats with 32 PB are Str 6, Dex 16, Con 12, Int 20, Wis 8, Cha 12.
Be a wizard specialist Diviner 20 (ban enchantment)
For feats:
1st: Spell Mastery (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#spellMasterySpecial) (at every level, retrain this, per Player's Handbook II, for better spells)
3rd: Improved Initiative
5th: Spontaneous Divination (variant from Complete Champion, pg 52)
6th: Insightful Divination (Complete Mage pg 44)
9th: Uncanny Forethought (Elder Evils, pg 26)
12th: Improved Familiar (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#improvedFamiliar) (take an Imp (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/devil.htm#imp))
15th: Quicken Spell (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#quickenSpell)
18th: Quick Recovery (Lords of Madness, pg 131)

Stats at 20 with gear: Str 6, Dex 20 (16+4 enhancement), Con 16 (12+4 enhancement), Int 36 (20+5 level+5 Tome+ 6 enhancement), Wis 8, Cha 12

Take maximum cross-class ranks of Use Magic Device. The familiar with it's stats and gear worn should have a check of +19, enabling it to auto-succeed at using it's items.

Equipment at 20:
-Greater Metamagic Rod of Maximize (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/rods.htm#metamagicMaximize)
-Greater Metamagic Rod of Extend (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/rods.htm#metamagicExtend)
-Rainbow Falls magical location (Complete Mage, triples the duration of any Transmutation spell cast once per day)
-Chronocharm of the Uncaring Archmage (1/day cast a full round spell as a standard action)
-Mantle of Second Chances
-Boccob's Blessed Book (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#blessedBook)
- +1 mithril soulfire mithril buckler
- +1 twilight heavy fortification mithril chain shirt
- +1 eager warning gauntlet (+7 bonus to Initiative)
-Scroll of Death Knell (used once per day)
Combined items per MIC rules:
-Belt of Battle and Constitution +4
-Ring of Nine Lives and Spell Battle
-Ring of Arcane Might and Darkhidden
-Ring of Greater Counterspells (containing Mordenkainen's Disjunction, worn on a Hand of Glory (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#handofGlory))
-Headband of Intellect +6 and Conscious Effort

Gear carried and worn by the Imp:
-Wand of Dimension Door
-Circlet of Persuasion
-Cloak of Charisma +6
-Masterwork Tool of Use Magic Device
-Tiny staff containing Discern Location and Shapechange
-Scroll of Revenance
-Scroll of Revivify

If necessary, he can retrain his feats to craft some or most of this equipment himself, then pay for a Psychic Reformation to be restored to normal.



Commonly prepared spells:
1: Nerveskitter
2: Invisibility, Glitterdust, Craft Magic Tatoo (only needs to recast this occasionally for the +1 CL boost)
3: Wind Wall
4: Celerity x2, Greater Invisibility, Anticipate Teleportation
5: Overland Flight, Greater Blink
6: Energy Immunity x2, Greater Dispel Magic, Greater Anticipate Teleport, (alternately: Assay Resistance)
7: Forcecage, Limited Wish, Ironguard
8: Superior Invisibility, Mindblank, Earth Glide
9: Timestop, Gate, Mordenkainen's Disjunction, Shapechange

Commonly used Divinations (He may throw for these at any time thanks to Spontaneous Divination ACF)
1: True Strike
2: Detect Thoughts
3: Clairvoyance
4: Detect Scrying
5: Prying Eyes
6: True Seeing
7: Greater Scrying
8: Moment of Prescience
9: Foresight

The Win:

Once per week, he casts several Contact Other Plane (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/contactOtherPlane.htm) spells and ask questions regarding the nature of upcoming threats along the lines of the following:
1) What is the first name of the enemy that will be the biggest threat to me in the coming week? (Let's say the answer is Bob)
2) What is the last name of the enemy that will be the biggest threat to me in the coming week? (Let's say the answer is Smith)
3) What is Bob Smith's biggest vulnerability?
4) Which of Bob Smith's capabilities poses the biggest threat to me?
5) What is the best way to counter Bob Smith's biggest threat to me?
6) What day will I encounter Bob Smith on?
7-12) repeat 1-6 for the second biggest threat of the week.

This allows him to tailor his normal spell selection to suitably to deal with whatever he might come across.

He then follow this up with another series of questions like, "Other than the threats I've uncovered today using Contact Other Plane, are there any other defensive measures that will be critical to my survival this week?", "What day should I take this measure?", "What time on that day?", then repeat for offensive measures.

For buffs, he has Permanent (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/permanency.htm) Arcane Sight (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/arcaneSight.htm) and See Invisibility (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/seeInvisibility.htm). By casting Shapechange (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/shapechange.htm) each morning while utilizing the bonus from Rainbow Falls with the Greater Rod of Extend, and a few caster level boost it will last for more than 24 hours. He also has Foresight (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/foresight.htm), Moment of Prescience (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/momentOfPrescience.htm) (shared with familiar), Mind Blank (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/mindBlank.htm), and finally Contingency (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/contingency.htm): "If I am ever rendered unable to act for any reason, Plane Shift (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/planeShift.htm) me to the Astral Plane"
As you can cast spells with a range of Personal on your familiar, it is also buffed with Foresight, and Contingency: "If the master's contingency is triggered Plane Shift to the Astral Plane". If the imp's contingency goes off, he will use the staff to find him, and, if necessary, take him to safety. With his gear he has a blanket immunity to death effects as well as critical hits and precision damage.

Defense: With Nerveskitter and his gear and stats, he has a total of +21 to Initiative (or +44 if he uses Moment of Prescience). By travelling in the form of a Dire Tortoise, he can also always act in the surprise round. However, since he is never flat-footed due to Foresight, he also has Celerity, and isn't afraid to use it on account of Quick Recovery. For more specific threats, Wind Wall provides total immunity to all ranged attacks, Ironguard makes him immune to any metal weapon, and Earth Glide makes him immune to any rocks thrown by Hulking Hurlers. Anticipate Teleport prevents scry-and-die assaults from invading his personal space until he is ready to bother with them. The familiar can also ready an action every round to use the Wand of Dimension Door to take the Wizard and itself away from any dangers. The familiar should also have one of its feats retrained (or Psychically Reformed (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/psychicReformation.htm)) into Mindsight, from Lords of Madness, giving it a radar that detects anything that thinks out to 100 feet. Shapechanging into a Formian Queen (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/formian.htm#queen) will extend this radar to a radius of 50 miles.

Offense: When he encounters something that isn't really a threat, he can just let his familiar Shapechange into something (like a beholder) and take care of it. The mage can also use Shapechange to access an at-will teleport (as an archon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/archon.htm)) and Plane Shift (say, from a Bebelith (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/demon.htm#bebilith)). Or he can turn into a Nightmare (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/nightmare.htm) and travel around as an Astral Projection all day.
Against things that are actually a threat, one option is to immediately cast a barred Forcecage on whatever is front of him, have the familiar Shapechange into a Beholder as a free action, since the spell is already shared, Then turn it's Antimagic Eye on the occupants of the cage, which is also a free action. Then he can cast something like Ring of Fire, which creates a pool of lava under the occupants feet for rounds per caster level, Or decide which spell he wants to emulate with Wish (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/wish.htm)/Limited Wish (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/limitedWish.htm) to deal with the problem. There's really no rush at that point.

If things are looking really nasty he can use Celerity to cast a Maximized Time Stop (with the rod) and properly prepare himself, or flee.


And since no all-powerful mage is complete without a secret lair:

By casting Genesis (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/spells/genesis.htm) once, you can create a personal demiplane 180 feet across. Leafing through the Manual of the Planes will give the mage a number of helpful planar traits you can assign to it, as you are explicitly allowed to assign such traits when you create it. For example, by giving it the Timeless trait, creatures on the plane will not age while they are there, and do not need to eat, breathe, or sleep.

Once it created, the mage can ward the entire plane area with a Permanent Alarm (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/alarm.htm) spell, and a Permanent Private Sanctum (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/magesPrivateSanctum.htm). To keep up any unwanted visitors (hint: everyone).

By using Death Knell in combination with the Magic Tattoo, his ring, a Karma Bead (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#strandofPrayerBeads), and emulating the Consumptive Field spell via Limited Wish, he can boost his Caster level to 36, which is high enough to Gate (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/gate.htm) in an Elder Titan (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/titanElder.htm). By casting Simulacrum (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/simulacrum.htm) on it, and he will have a permanent duplicate of the creature as a completely loyal ally after the duration on Gate expires. The duplicate will have 36 hit dice, cast as a 29th level cleric with the Magic and Knowledge domains, and have the Epic Spellcasting feat with access to three epic spells, the Ingore Material Components feat, and Craft Contingent Spell, as well as a whole slew of useful Spell-like abilities, such as Astral Projection and Contact Other Plane.

As a final safeguard, he orders the Simulacrum to cover the entire demiplane in a Forbiddance (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/forbiddance.htm) spell once he leaves. Whenever he is ready to return, he contacts the titan via Sending (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/sending.htm) and asks it to dispel the Forbiddance (shouldn't be a problem, since it cast it), and then recast it once he is home. Barring this, no one else can ever enter or leave the demiplane, including the mage himself. Should he choose to stay behind and Astral Project himself to travel, the titan can also be ordered to stand by with Revivify in case the mage is killed via his astral cord being severed.

As an absolute last resort, he has a Clone (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/clone.htm) hidden away, probably on his demiplane, but with the above warding spells he can store it anywhere on the Prime Material Plane that's out of the way and well-hidden. Once every 90 days or so, he returns to the spot where the Clone is stored and casts an Extended Gentle Repose (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/gentleRepose.htm) on it by using Limited Wish.


Another primary spellcaster is incapable of defeating this, let alone any mundane character on his best day.

The key thing to note is how many of his I.W.I.N. Buttons are found right on the SRD.

[Calthropstu]

I see :smallfrown:
That's kinda unfair.

It's also unfair that the wizard at first level has 2 spells to cast and is then nearly defenseless hiding behind the fighter like a frightened school child and firing his crossbow or throwing darts.

[eggynack]

It's also unfair that the wizard at first level has 2 spells to cast and is then nearly defenseless hiding behind the fighter like a frightened school child and firing his crossbow or throwing darts.
But all of that can be pretty easily worked against, so it's not nearly so unfair. Make the base intelligence 18 and add gray elf, and the wizard has three first level spells. Add specialization, domain wizard, or elven generalist, and they have four. Use focused specialist or both domain and generalist, and they have five. Add abrupt jaunt (to the specialized versions), and they don't have to hide nearly so much, because they're getting a defense that's not even necessarily worse than the armor/HP thing the fighter is bringing to the table. Add cantrips, and you're getting at least some utility after all the above is wasted.

And, on top of that, whatever unfairness exists is partially compensated for by out of combat stuff. Even if we assume the fighter has a significant combat advantage, the wizard is still doing way better in any out of combat context. Fighters get close to nothing in that arena, while, even if you restrict to core, wizards are getting alarm, mount, SM I, unseen servant, comprehend languages, identify, charm person, disguise self, and silent image. And that's leaving off some of the lower order stuff, including cantrips like prestidigitation and detect magic.

[icefractal]

It's also unfair that the wizard at first level has 2 spells to cast and is then nearly defenseless hiding behind the fighter like a frightened school child and firing his crossbow or throwing darts.1st level Wizard is not all that bad. Color Spray compares favorably with what anyone else is doing, and even resorting to the crossbow is not as bad as it will be later on. A Wizard is only 2-3 behind in attack bonus compared to most warrior-types, and may be better when melee isn't possible.

[Calthropstu]

But all of that can be pretty easily worked against, so it's not nearly so unfair. Make the base intelligence 18 and add gray elf, and the wizard has three first level spells. Add specialization, domain wizard, or elven generalist, and they have four. Use focused specialist or both domain and generalist, and they have five. Add abrupt jaunt (to the specialized versions), and they don't have to hide nearly so much, because they're getting a defense that's not even necessarily worse than the armor/HP thing the fighter is bringing to the table. Add cantrips, and you're getting at least some utility after all the above is wasted.

And, on top of that, whatever unfairness exists is partially compensated for by out of combat stuff. Even if we assume the fighter has a significant combat advantage, the wizard is still doing way better in any out of combat context. Fighters get close to nothing in that arena, while, even if you restrict to core, wizards are getting alarm, mount, SM I, unseen servant, comprehend languages, identify, charm person, disguise self, and silent image. And that's leaving off some of the lower order stuff, including cantrips like prestidigitation and detect magic.

Ummm... what gm is giving you all of that at first level?

Are you forgetting the fact that spells cost money? Your 1st level starting spellbook is very very restrictive, and adding spells is actually quite challenging in and of itself. The whole point of wizards going out adventuring in the first place is to get money for research and spells. So when a wizard first starts out, quite poor mind you, his spell selection is going to be VERY modest.

[icefractal]

Are you forgetting the fact that spells cost money? Your 1st level starting spellbook is very very restrictive, and adding spells is actually quite challenging in and of itself. The whole point of wizards going out adventuring in the first place is to get money for research and spells. So when a wizard first starts out, quite poor mind you, his spell selection is going to be VERY modest.You get all the cantrips for free, and 3+Int (so 8, in this case) 1st level spells.

Learning more 1st level spells isn't that expensive even if you have to fully pay for them, and in many cases you may be able to trade spell knowledge and only pay the scribing cost.

[Efrate]

You get 2 spells plus one for each point of int bonus, so you have 7 different first level spells at level one, and 4 to 5 slots. Plus every cantrip ever printed. A lvl 1 human fighter with 2 flaws gets 5 feats. And you can change your stuff every day as a wizard.

All that stuff at level 1 is just some of the level 1 acfs wizards get. They get more at most levels, wizards have almost as many acfs as fighters have fighter bonus feats. Thats hyperbole but it gets the point accross.

[Coretron03]

Ummm... what gm is giving you all of that at first level?

Are you forgetting the fact that spells cost money? Your 1st level starting spellbook is very very restrictive, and adding spells is actually quite challenging in and of itself. The whole point of wizards going out adventuring in the first place is to get money for research and spells. So when a wizard first starts out, quite poor mind you, his spell selection is going to be VERY modest.
He didn't say he would take all of them, just potiential options for utility. Anyway, a grey elf wizard with a int of 20 starts off with 8 spells, plus starting wealth is enough a wizard could buy and scribe a scroll then I think domain wizards don't need to scribe the spells they get which should give them enough spells at level 1 to do good utility and have a decent combat power. At level 2 he gets 2 more free spells along with more wealth expanding his spell bookand even then they have utility cantrips which they get all of them for free.

[eggynack]

Ummm... what gm is giving you all of that at first level?
I presented my post in layers, instead of just saying, "Well, what if you're a focused specialist conjurer with 20 in your main stat and abrupt jaunt? How about then?" for a reason. Various DM's are going to allow various quantities of that stuff. I'd expect ridiculously few to not let you get above the two spells a day you claimed.



Are you forgetting the fact that spells cost money? Your 1st level starting spellbook is very very restrictive, and adding spells is actually quite challenging in and of itself. The whole point of wizards going out adventuring in the first place is to get money for research and spells. So when a wizard first starts out, quite poor mind you, his spell selection is going to be VERY modest.
As has been stated, even the version of that wizard with the most spells available, five, is going to have enough spells in their book to fill every single one of those slots with a different spell without spending any money, if they so desire. You don't necessarily have enough to switch loadouts, but I never actually listed that among the wizard's assets. But, to be clear, you can actually change your loadout somewhat, because the maximized wizard has eight first level spells in their book, with five slots to fill, and duplication is sometimes valuable for even more variety day to day.

[King of Nowhere]

wait, wait, wait, so first you say that all the best spells are core and you don't really need to look outside, then you start quoting stuff like craft contingent spell to get dozens of contingencies, gray elves, nerveskitter, ironguard, stoneglide... i never heard of any of those stuff, and it seems the worse kind. Actually the only advantage that the fighter can be said to have (again, to the best of my knowledge) is that his attacks cannot be stopped. yeah, he can be paralyzed, stuck in a forcecage, rooted, blinded, sleeping, whatever, but if he actually manages to reach you, he will hurt you. All the best defensive buffs will only slow him down; greater stoneskin is only a mild nuisance to someone with a str over 30 with a +5 two-handed weapon, and the best AC buffs I know only bring the AC around 35 to 40, which the fighter can hit with a 2 on the first attack. Making a spell that randomly makes you immune to metal weapons (i.e. all of them) seems just low. the ONE thing that the fighter can rely on, taken away like that.

Also, contingency with a teleport or planeshift or that kind of stuff is much less strong that anyone here seems to imply, as anyone who is trying to take on a high level wizard and is not a total moron (ok, you may argue that anyone trying to take on a high level wizard is a moron; just assume he's a highly functional one) will be using dimensional anchor.
In fact, I envision the fight as something like that; hire some low level caster (hey, you can do some minionmancy yourself too, with moneymancy). the first cast disjunction, to lower the wizard's defences. the second cast dimensional anchor. the third dimension doors you in melee with the wizard. you make a full attack. your only problem is getting the wizard flat-footed, which is admittedly not easy to do against someone using moment of prescience.

Also the thing about contacting other planes all the time is the kind of thing that can backfire you spectacularly, as the powerful beings of those other planes may get pissed, or they may be bribed by your enemy into lying to you, or whatever. I just feel an irresistible urge to punish smartasses who think they can do stuff without consequences; and a lot of what a batman wizard is supposed to do (dominating minions, binding demons, contacting other planes) can backfire spectacularly.

The way I see it, the way to defeat a powerful wizard (regardless of what class you are) is to try to escape his sight (there are many ways to hide yourself from divination) and get ways to counter what are his most likely attacks and defences. then you lure the wizard out, or you ambush him when you know you'll have the chance, and you hope that he try to do what you planned him to do. yeah, the wizard is better at doing all that divination and preparation stuff, so he's the likely winner, but still it is not completely impossible. I threw challenges like that at my players, though doing it as a master is unfair; I know exactly what they have prepared, so I either make the wizard (or cleric) capable of curb-stomping the party, or i intentionally make it lose. generally i try to have the caster avoid spells that the party is outright immune to, because he's prepared that much, but I also avoid spells I know would completely annihilate the party. If the party just bought a new item protecting them from soemthing, I may have the caster do soemthing that is specifically covered - just because it is reasonable that he may have done research but may have missed something new. it also will feel rewarding to the player if I show them that taking a preparation was useful.

[Vhaidara]

All the best defensive buffs will only slow him down; greater stoneskin is only a mild nuisance to someone with a str over 30 with a +5 two-handed weapon, and the best AC buffs I know only bring the AC around 35 to 40, which the fighter can hit with a 2 on the first attack. Making a spell that randomly makes you immune to metal weapons (i.e. all of them) seems just low. the ONE thing that the fighter can rely on, taken away like that.

To name one, Mirror Image. Welcome to a second level spell so powerful you are literally better off blinding yourself than trying to fight through it. In core.

See also Displacement or any other miss chance generator, Improved Invisibility, Fly. Things that do, in fact, negate the fighter's ability to attack.

Oh, and you mention this


In fact, I envision the fight as something like that; hire some low level caster (hey, you can do some minionmancy yourself too, with moneymancy). the first cast disjunction, to lower the wizard's defences. the second cast dimensional anchor. the third dimension doors you in melee with the wizard. you make a full attack. your only problem is getting the wizard flat-footed, which is admittedly not easy to do against someone using moment of prescience.

So your plan to fight a wizard is to hire a 17th level wizard (see where you mentioned Disjunction) to spend 2 rounds prepping the fight before even helping you engage. What do you think the wizard you're fighting is doing, sitting around doing his nails while your hireling casts disjunction and dimensional anchor? You think his first reaction to "I got disjunctioned" isn't going to be "Teleport elsewhere"? Or are you hiring 3 wizards and using a surprise round?

[AvatarVecna]

To name one, Mirror Image. Welcome to a second level spell so powerful you are literally better off blinding yourself than trying to fight through it. In core.

See also Displacement or any other miss chance generator, Improved Invisibility, Fly. Things that do, in fact, negate the fighter's ability to attack.

Oh, and you mention this



So your plan to fight a wizard is to hire a 17th level wizard (see where you mentioned Disjunction) to spend 2 rounds prepping the fight before even helping you engage. What do you think the wizard you're fighting is doing, sitting around doing his nails while your hireling casts disjunction and dimensional anchor? You think his first reaction to "I got disjunctioned" isn't going to be "Teleport elsewhere"? Or are you hiring 3 wizards and using a surprise round?

I'm still trying to figure out how any of his spells are going to outdraw a Contingency, since those go off before the trigger finishes.

But I guess you could say that a Fighter could technically beat a Wizard by paying a bigger Wizard to do it, thus proving that Fighters can compete with wizards.

[eggynack]

wait, wait, wait, so first you say that all the best spells are core and you don't really need to look outside, then you start quoting stuff like craft contingent spell to get dozens of contingencies, gray elves, nerveskitter, ironguard, stoneglide... i never heard of any of those stuff, and it seems the worse kind.
A lot of that stuff listed is really close to core, and the post I assume you're referring to wasn't necessarily within the context of the core thing. I can name a massive pile of incredibly powerful core wizard spells for any spell level, if you want.


Actually the only advantage that the fighter can be said to have (again, to the best of my knowledge) is that his attacks cannot be stopped. yeah, he can be paralyzed, stuck in a forcecage, rooted, blinded, sleeping, whatever, but if he actually manages to reach you, he will hurt you.
Assuming you're correct, why would the fighter be able to reach you when it's so trivial to make them not reach you? How is that an advantage?


All the best defensive buffs will only slow him down; greater stoneskin is only a mild nuisance to someone with a str over 30 with a +5 two-handed weapon, and the best AC buffs I know only bring the AC around 35 to 40, which the fighter can hit with a 2 on the first attack. Making a spell that randomly makes you immune to metal weapons (i.e. all of them) seems just low. the ONE thing that the fighter can rely on, taken away like that.
Flight+wind wall does a lot of the work against fighters without needing much in the way of other resources.


Also the thing about contacting other planes all the time is the kind of thing that can backfire you spectacularly, as the powerful beings of those other planes may get pissed, or they may be bribed by your enemy into lying to you, or whatever. I just feel an irresistible urge to punish smartasses who think they can do stuff without consequences;
They do lie to you intentionally, but it happens a strictly defined percentage of the time, so it's not that much of an issue. It seems like that, along with evasion of the stat increase, are the actual consequences of the spell.



The way I see it, the way to defeat a powerful wizard (regardless of what class you are) is to try to escape his sight (there are many ways to hide yourself from divination) and get ways to counter what are his most likely attacks and defences. then you lure the wizard out, or you ambush him when you know you'll have the chance, and you hope that he try to do what you planned him to do. yeah, the wizard is better at doing all that divination and preparation stuff, so he's the likely winner, but still it is not completely impossible.
That seems like a bad plan. You can hide from some divination, but it's far from trivial on a fighter and you can't likely block everything. Wizards are way better at countering your most likely attacks and defenses, and ambushing you, than you are. The way to kill a wizard mundane style is to use darkstalker and attempt to get a single attack off. Blocking that stuff is non-trivial if they're not expecting it. If the wizard is expecting something, it's very unlikely that that thing will be effective.

[Zanos]

Gray Elves actually are core, pretty sure they're in the monster manual.

[Doctor Despair]

I remember when I was trying to figure out how to kill a mage. The first step is avoiding the mage from knowing about you, which required applying the God Blooded of Vecna template repeatedly while also abusing the rules surrounding Xortinvaal (might be misremembering the spelling) dragons Chorranathau or Morlicantha by making your plans a part of their plans for the Game, then modifying their memory. They made the plans, so your future actions until the culmination of your plans are shielded from any divination. No one knows what you have done, who you are, where you came from, or what you are going to do. For all intents and purposes, you are a ghost.

Then, you have to stack all sorts of templates and things (I had a thread here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?472675-Have-you-seen-this-man) talking about it) to get Hide in Plain Sight and block standard foils to stealth like Darkstalker, Necropolitan (for life-sense), some Pass Without a Trace effect, Emotionless (for Detect Hostile Intent), Etherealness (for Touchsight), and Magic Aura (for Arcane Sight). The ultimate foils to stealth were a mage with the mageripper's swarm Sense Magic ability or Dweomersight of balhannoth (both from MM4). This keeps us at a defined range of 120 feet if I remember correctly. So far as I know, Foresight means that a wizard can never, ever, ever be caught flat-footed, so all of this is just to get us close without triggering or undue traps and, of course, to really make sure the wizard doesn't know we are coming.

However, getting there is another journey entirely. I think with a sufficiently high Knowledge Planes check you could know about the plane the wizard inhabits (since you presumably know about the wizard or else wouldn't be trying to kill him). Then, a use of Wish could transport you to that plane -- but once again contingent magic is our enemy, since it can trigger on anything at any range. There is no way to circumvent this by RAW; a wizard could have all his abilities be contingent wishes, for example, or what have you that trigger upon entering his plane. This is the first barrier that we'd have to overcome.

Then, we have to consider the plane itself. It could be toxic or otherwise deadly just to be there. The wizard presumably has 10x your action economy just by inhabiting it, using fast-time and such abuse. It could be uncomfortaby full of ice assassins in every 5 foot square, all now able to see you since you're within 120 feet. It could be full of antimagic that only affects creatures who aren't the wizard. We'd have to use the wish to drop us right next to the wizard and have our own continent magic trigger, assuming we can overcome the AMF. Then it's just a battle of who has more contingent spells; assuming you have an equal amount, his would trigger first, then triggering one of yours, then one of his, etc. Yours should end up being the last on the stack, so to speak, and so be the first to resolve your Mage's Disjunction, but then the wizard has immediate action spells to use -- and so does his familiar and all of his ice assassins. If you are not an equally powerful wizard, you just lose here.

Now, you can abuse ice assassin and have a bunch of ice assassins of the wizard as well. Technically, you don't even have to abuse the rules surrounding ice assassin to control them since they all want the wizard dead. Assuming all the ice assassins balance out somehow (and god this is a silly situation by this point), you still lose to the wizard's immediate action spells. We can try to drop a selective AMF on the wizard when port in, but if we have a method to avoid AMF, so does the wizard. The wizard just out action-economies us if he is sufficiently paranoid about contingent magic. In fact, I was being very generous by saying the contingent magic would balance out; realistically, the wizard would be more capable of making it than the fighter is since the fighter has to pay only with gold and the wizard can use gold and some infinite store of XP like am ambrosia factory.

If we had some way to find out exactly how many contingent spells the wizard had, we might be talking, but I'm not sure how to arrange that as a caster, let alone a fighter.

...

It just occurred to me that a wizard in sufficient optimization is typically using an astral projection, negating his ability to use immediate-action spells. I suppose we might be able to get a single disjunction off if we assume infinite WBL for all the contingent spells, then, if we can avoid being subject to the plane's antimagic through Planar Shepherd or something. The issue there is that we would die. The wizard's component pouch contains a NI amount of items that have negligible costs and Relics and Artifacts (can't recall the name -- famous items from heroes and gods) have a 1% chance of causing a deity to smite you on the spot if you destroy them (which there is also a percentage chance for, iirc). You might be able to avoid this by putting all your contingent magic on one of the ice assassins that teleports next to you -- then the deity would just smite that ice assassin, leaving you to disjunction the mage.

OK, assuming the wizard hasn't prevented ANY of that (which he probably has in some TO I haven't thought of off the top of my head), you have now removed all the buffs and such from the mage. If you were fortunate enough to be outside the range of the disjunction, you still get your other contingent spells to fire off. That may be enough to kill the mage depending on what they are, assuming you parsed their strengths well enough and dodge their immunities. They shouldn't have any other contingent magic, so this is the closest we've gotten, and I'm sure there's more barriers to this working than the ones I've specified. If the mage dies, the clones probably don't care about you any more, but they may just kill you since you've shown the ingenuity to kill an exact copy of them. If you're lucky, they don't, and you live -- but more likely the mage isn't dead.

The mage immediately wakes up from astral projection and uses Nerveskitter, or whatever it's called, and goes first in initiative now that all the contingent magic has fired off. He uses his spells to forcecage you, or otherwise prevent actions or casting, and that's the fight. Although... hm. Would you get a surprise round since the mage's Foresight would have been dispelled in this scenario? If it did, you could charge the mage to attack and maybe slay him, again assuming we can ignore any negative traits the plane bestows on visitors -- except that he's used Hide Life and can't die. Then again, the plane might have some trait that prevents anyone from being caught flat-footed. You had to go attack the phylactery, not the mage -- our princess is in another castle.

I'm not sure how we would ever find the phylactery. If we use Metafaculty or whatever that psionic power is called, but that only works if the lich has revealed his phylactery in the last 8 hours and only if we can beat him in a caster level check, which as a fighter we probly cannot. Or... hm. Hide Life has a target: you as well as a duration that is not instantaneous. Would a disjunction end the hide life spell irrespective of the phylactery being there? How strange; for some reason I always thought it was cast on the phylactery.

Regardless of all that... all a mage has to do to be safe from any of this is to take the same steps we did to go unnoticed: God Blooded of Vecna and to commune with Chorranathau or Morlicantha to prevent anyone, anywhere, ever from knowing or learning about them. In addition, by this point, I think I've made it pretty clear that you have to either be a caster or be essentially just a hired meat puppet for a caster in order to attempt any of this. No, a fighter cannot take on a mage in a perfect fight.

[Kantolin]

You know...

It is definitely true that if 'a fighter' was fighting 'a wizard', the wizard will win.

But if you have a particular wizard, it is possible for a fighter to beat that /particular/ wizard up to (moderate or above average optimization, at least).

Now, this probably will require a ton of specialty magic items and silver bullets that are also themselves magic, and there's definitely an optimization point where the fighter just hits his ceiling and fails to go further, but he could get enough gear to take down a particular wizard.

Of course, there is a problem in 'How does the fighter get to know the wizard's layout but the wizard doesn't get to know the fighter exists', but I guess you could plot that away by having that wizard be otherwise concerned with a cleric or something.

So technically yes! You could totally build a fighter to take down a particular wizard, so if you OOCly presented 'Here is a wizard, build a fighter to beat him' then you could! Presuming the wizard wasn't super duper optimized and always in his demiplane or something, but still beats up Balors with his party for a living.

(...unless he went and bought spells or something in between. Or happens to be standing next to his cleric or rogue buddy of his adventuring party).

[eggynack]

You know...

It is definitely true that if 'a fighter' was fighting 'a wizard', the wizard will win.

But if you have a particular wizard, it is possible for a fighter to beat that /particular/ wizard up to (moderate or above average optimization, at least).
At levels that aren't 20? Maybe. Stick some random 10th level fighter in a fight with some random 10th level wizard, and the wizard will very likely win but not definitely win. At 20? Reasonably optimized? Essentially never.



Of course, there is a problem in 'How does the fighter get to know the wizard's layout but the wizard doesn't get to know the fighter exists', but I guess you could plot that away by having that wizard be otherwise concerned with a cleric or something.
A problem with that line of reasoning is that, if presented with a true threat, the wizard can completely reverse that situation. They're cornered, with some of their better defenses clearly not effective, and then they just kinda teleport away. At that point, there's this apparently amazing fighter that's out for their blood, so they learn a ton of stuff about said fighter and defeat them through the power of knowledge. Not saying that's a thing the wizard will do most of the time, or even a lot of the time, but faced with that rare encounter with that which is both unexpected and truly effective? That's the time to run away and crush your foes in the long term. It's the kinda thing that transforms "This wizard" into "A wizard", as you put it.

[Gusmo]

It's worth pointing out that teleport and plane shift are basically available all day for free once shapechange is online, due to various forms (all available in core, if that matters) that can transport themselves as a supernatural ability at-will.

[Dragonexx]

Are we seriously using class v. class to determine balance?

[Kelb_Panthera]

It's starting to sound like that while wizards are more powerful than fighters, the only thing that rules out it actually being a fight is craft contingent spell, and no wonder - having 20 standard actions' worth of spells happen automatically on an event you might not even be aware of is ridonk. Without that, it seems like a clever and sneaky mundane character might at least have a chance to get a shot off?

Not even. Craft contingent spell is just one of the more egregious things.

Honestly though, it's not technically something the fighter can't also use. He just has to pay full price to a caster to get his own contingencies and they're expensive enough that it takes a noticeable bite out of his other equipment, equipment that he -needs- to get even a realistic shot.

The wizard can simply craft them himself at half-cost and laughs at the hit to his WBL since he wasn't overmuch concerned about equipment anyway.


A lot of the responses here are assuming a caster played to a very high degree of both optimization and preparations. In actual play, YMMV a lot. While with equal amounts of optimization on both sides, the caster is probably going to win, a low-op caster can be killed by a low-op Fighter if the latter gets the drop on them. And of course, a high-op Fighter is going to destroy a low-op caster. See the "Monk defeats all the Elder Evils in a row" thread, for example.

Also, while this doesn't affect the general comparison too much, I think the amount of preparations that casters are assumed (on this board) to have in place is a bit unrealistic. Casters are being played by human players with (usually) non-genius IQs and limited amounts of time to devote to the perfect use of contingencies and divinations. And the human is the one who actually has to make the choices - you can't just go:
DM: "What spells do you prepare?"
Player: *waves hand* "The best ones, whatever those are. I have Int 34!"
Same for contingencies and divinations - if you're playing D&D, the character doesn't do the thinking for you.

This is -very- true and is part of the reason that the OP shouldn't be at all concerned about choosing to play a martial character in his GM's game.

[Harlekin]

In fact, I envision the fight as something like that; hire some low level caster (hey, you can do some minionmancy yourself too, with moneymancy). the first cast disjunction, to lower the wizard's defences. the second cast dimensional anchor. the third dimension doors you in melee with the wizard.

So in a thread called "Can a fighter take off a mage in a perfect fight?" the answer is yes, if the fighter hires wizards to fight the wizard?

Does anyone else see the irony?

[ryu]

So in a thread called "Can a fighter take off a mage in a perfect fight?" the answer is yes, if the fighter hires wizards to fight the wizard?

Does anyone else see the irony?

And it's not even right because for every tactic involving buying or pretending to be a wizard, the wizard himself can replicate cheaper, more powerfully, more sustainably, and usually all of the above.

Fighter buys a wizard? Wizard buys a wizard. Now it's a fighter and a wizard against TWO wizards. Worse actually. The two wizards can scribe spells off each other and gain actual synergistic benefit from working together where the fighter is just dead weight.

[King of Nowhere]

Astral projection doesn't seem safe to me. The spell description says it leaves behind a silvery cord that "very few things can destroy". Now, I have no idea what can destroy a silvery cord (besides a ghitianki silver sword, courtesy of neverwinter nights 2), but I am pretty sure that if someone has the resources to get a shoot at a level 17+ wizard or cleric, he must be able to find something to break that silver cord. And since that cord can extend for thousands of kilometers across planes, you don't even need to engage the wizard to destroy it. I believe finding a way to destroy the solvery cord is much easier than finding a way to kill the wizard in some other way.


Are we seriously using class v. class to determine balance?
No, we aren't. This is simply about whether a well played and smart fighter could have some small, puny, dependant on favorable circumstances to even exist, but nonzero chance at taking a high level wizard, or if they are absolutely, completely nihil.


So in a thread called "Can a fighter take off a mage in a perfect fight?" the answer is yes, if the fighter hires wizards to fight the wizard?

Does anyone else see the irony?
Partially. I am assuming that the fighter also has a friendly wizard who will do the divinations and information gathering for him, will protect him from divinations, that kind of thing. yeah, of course wizards are super duper powerful, nobody is trying to argue against that. And, as someone said, the main advantages of the wizard are strategical, i.e. the fighter can't even enter his demiplane without another caster. Yes, the only way for a fighter to even start to compete with a wizard is to get enough activated spells that he's almost a wizard himself. There is some irony in that.

[Aharon]

I've gone over this before, but I'll cut an paste it to this thread too for convenience.


Hi Tony! I appreciated the original thead over at Brilliant Gameologists (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=3763.0), and maybe people here find it helpful. Thanks for the work :-)

@OP and King of Nowhere
It is definitely true that an optimized wizard is a force to behold. One of the best ways to deal with them is via forcing concentration checks (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?498396-Short-guide-to-forcing-concentration-checks-and-other-mean-caster-blockers), but that is 1) nowhere near a guarantee to win a fight and 2) more reliably accomplished with other casters. Also, it's very fiddly - most tables I played at don't want to deal with that kind of thing, since frequent concentration checks slow the game down.

One example that's a bit silly, but might work until mid levels, if you go by RAW is Ranged Pin, from Complete Warrior. It reads


You can perform a ranged grapple attempt against an opponent by pinning a bit of it's clothing to a nearby surface. The target must be within 5' of a wall, tree, or other surface in which a thrown weapon or projectile can be stuck and must be wearing some sort of clothing, armor or other accoutrement. you must succeed on a ranged attack (not a ranged touch attack) and then win an opposed grapple check (your size modifier, and the target's size modifiers still apply). To break free, the victum must make a DC 15 Strength check or a DC 15 Escape artist check as a standard action. A fighter may select Ranged Pin as one of his fighter bonus feats.

Unless the fight starts in the air, or underwater, the target is always within 5' of another surface - the floor. Wizards'll probably be able to make the check to free themselves, but they have to use their standard action on that instead of spells that obliterate you. Most counters to being pinned either aren't on the wizard spell list (Freedom of Movement) or short term (Freedom, others), so for a low to mid-op wizard of middle levels, that's a hindrance. If we're talking about a high-op guy that has access to all wizard and cleric spells and uses Persistent spell, this obviously doesn't work.

Even against a moderately optimized wizard (see TonyMitsu's post) this tactic probably doesn't work, since the wizard doesn't have to use his action to escape, but can instead use a free action to shapechange into something that isn't pinned (like a fly or something). This only slightly inconveniences the caster (loss of the piece of clothing).

[ryu]

Hi Tony! I appreciated the original thead over at Brilliant Gameologists (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=3763.0), and maybe people here find it helpful. Thanks for the work :-)

@OP and King of Nowhere
It is definitely true that an optimized wizard is a force to behold. One of the best ways to deal with them is via forcing concentration checks (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?498396-Short-guide-to-forcing-concentration-checks-and-other-mean-caster-blockers), but that is 1) nowhere near a guarantee to win a fight and 2) more reliably accomplished with other casters. Also, it's very fiddly - most tables I played at don't want to deal with that kind of thing, since frequent concentration checks slow the game down.

One example that's a bit silly, but might work until mid levels, if you go by RAW is Ranged Pin, from Complete Warrior. It reads



Unless the fight starts in the air, or underwater, the target is always within 5' of another surface - the floor. Wizards'll probably be able to make the check to free themselves, but they have to use their standard action on that instead of spells that obliterate you. Most counters to being pinned either aren't on the wizard spell list (Freedom of Movement) or short term (Freedom, others), so for a low to mid-op wizard of middle levels, that's a hindrance. If we're talking about a high-op guy that has access to all wizard and cleric spells and uses Persistent spell, this obviously doesn't work.

Even against a moderately optimized wizard (see TonyMitsu's post) this tactic probably doesn't work, since the wizard doesn't have to use his action to escape, but can instead use a free action to shapechange into something that isn't pinned (like a fly or something). This only slightly inconveniences the caster (loss of the piece of clothing).

There's also the fact that since that's a grapple freedom of movement or any effect that grants it says no. Tell me have you ever met a high level wizard that didn't understand the value of tasty tasty immunities?

[Aharon]

There's also the fact that since that's a grapple freedom of movement or any effect that grants it says no. Tell me have you ever met a high level wizard that didn't understand the value of tasty tasty immunities?

I mention Freedom of Movement, specifically. Yes, you can get that as a wizard outside of core, or Shapechange -> Storm Giant, or whatever. I was talking about lower levels and lower optimization. I even included the caveat


If we're talking about a high-op guy that has access to all wizard and cleric spells and uses Persistent spell, this obviously doesn't work.

[ryu]

I mention Freedom of Movement, specifically. Yes, you can get that as a wizard outside of core, or Shapechange -> Storm Giant, or whatever. I was talking about lower levels and lower optimization. I even included the caveat

You don't need to leave core, just get an item of it. Thing is not high level. Alternatively heart of water if you really must demand use of the wizard list.

[Aharon]

You don't need to leave core, just get an item of it. Thing is not high level. Alternatively heart of water if you really must demand use of the wizard list.

A ring of freedom of movement comes in at 40k gp, that's a fifth of your WBL at 15th level. Heart of Water works fine out of core, I agree.

[ryu]

A ring of freedom of movement comes in at 40k gp, that's a fifth of your WBL at 15th level. Heart of Water works fine out of core, I agree.

Your point? Immunities are quite literally some of the most valuable things you can have. Immunities you don't have easy native access to doubly so.

[Aharon]

Your point? Immunities are quite literally some of the most valuable things you can have. Immunities you don't have easy native access to doubly so.

My point being, there are opportunity costs. 40k is a significant chunk of money you could have spent on rods of quicken or whatever. Plus there's the rule for character creation that no item may be more than 25% of the character's total wealth. So it's not a low-level item at all.

[Templarkommando]

In general, my impression is that the wizard will typically win. If you're up against a particularly stupid wizard and get a surprise round and win initiative and the wizard doesn't have any protections or contingencies up, you could probably get him before the first full round of combat is over. Understand, we're talking about a really stupid wizard here. A twentieth level wizard has about 80 hitpoints if he has a +2 con modifier and rolls average for HP. As a 20 level fighter, you have 8 attacks over the course of surprise and round 1. If your hit is average for a great sword you're swinging for an above 20 AC most of them time, so we'll call that a probably hit. Then you calculate damage so 7 base damage + magic weapon modifier + STR modifier + Any Specialization or misc modifiers you can come up with, you're definitely swinging for more than 10 hp/hit. 8 hits in total takes out a wizard with 80 hit points in the first round if (and this is a big if) the wizard is caught completely unaware and unprepared and all of your rolls are average.

Once the wizard has a chance to do something, you really need to talk about nailing down what spell resources that the wizard has available before you start talking about how you're going to win in a PvP match. A 20 level wizard has a massive number of spells. Four spells/day/spell level really adds up by the time you get to level 20. The reason you want to nail that down for this thought exercise is because people that are partial to wizard will move the goalposts on you every time. "You're going to do this? Well, I'll counter that by casting this spell that I may or may not typically keep on my casting list." In an real-game set up you don't know what spells the wizard is going to have memorized, but it helps chain down some of the wizard's awesome powers just a bit by forcing them to stick with a particular spell list. One of my big problems with fighter though, is that if you *are* going to fight a wizard, you need to build a specialist fighter to take on a wizard, and that fighter is still probably going to lose. A wizard is incredible all on his own without specializing for anything.

[Doctor Despair]

In general, my impression is that the wizard will typically win. If you're up against a particularly stupid wizard and get a surprise round and win initiative and the wizard doesn't have any protections or contingencies up, you could probably get him before the first full round of combat is over... 8 hits in total takes out a wizard with 80 hit points in the first round if (and this is a big if) the wizard is caught completely unaware and unprepared and all of your rolls are average.

Once the wizard has a chance to do something, you really need to talk about nailing down what spell resources that the wizard has available before you start talking about how you're going to win in a PvP match. A 20 level wizard has a massive number of spells. Four spells/day/spell level really adds up by the time you get to level 20. The reason you want to nail that down for this thought exercise is because people that are partial to wizard will move the goalposts on you every time. "You're going to do this? Well, I'll counter that by casting this spell that I may or may not typically keep on my casting list." In an real-game set up you don't know what spells the wizard is going to have memorized, but it helps chain down some of the wizard's awesome powers just a bit by forcing them to stick with a particular spell list. One of my big problems with fighter though, is that if you *are* going to fight a wizard, you need to build a specialist fighter to take on a wizard, and that fighter is still probably going to lose. A wizard is incredible all on his own without specializing for anything.

That's just the thing though. Without the use of magic, you never get that surprise round because wizards *will* have protection up, even if not the crazy ones I described. At a minimum... Persisted Foresight and one use of Nerveskitter mean the fighter will not get a surprise round and probably doesn't go first in initiative. One use of the hide life spell a month or something like that means the fighter can never kill a mage with direct damage. A contingent effect of Freedom of Movement prevents grappling, so a standard non-caster fighter has officially run out of options for this.

As for requiring that a wizard nail down his particular spell list... Foresight alone would tell a wizard what spells to prepare and persist that day. I'm sure there are others along that line as well, but that's the most powerful one I can think of -- and one a wizard will probably persist regardless of his other plans. The advantage to wizards is just that big -- four spells mean the wizard goes first (and at bare minimum can teleport away), can't be surprise, is immune to damage, and is immune to grappling, the two main ways for fighters to attack. If we are really counting on wizards not to use any protections, like you said, then we aren't really attacking a wizard, we're attacking a level 20 expert in a funny hat.

[tomandtish]

The bottom line. Wizards and other primary casters can PROJECT power, and can do so in a wide variety of ways (firepower, mobility, suport, etc.). They are the fantasy version of aircraft carriers. Non-casters cannot.


I can never remember the exact quote, but i remember it went something like this:

Core Wizard vs Core Fighter is an attack helicopter vs a grizzly bear.
Full Splat Wizard vs Full Splat Fighter is an attack helicopter with missiles and a cloaking system vs a mutant cyborg grizzly bear that spits acid.

The fighter still loses, but at least he gets to look really cool while doing it.

I prefer the following:

Fighters start as cavemen with clubs and finish as WW2 infantrymen.

Wizards start as mid-1700s frigates and finish as Imperial Star Destroyers.

[Flickerdart]

The bottom line. Wizards and other primary casters can PROJECT power, and can do so in a wide variety of ways (firepower, mobility, suport, etc.). They are the fantasy version of aircraft carriers. Non-casters cannot.

Funny you should say that... (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?511169-An-alternative-system-for-ranking-classes-Power-Projection)








I prefer the following:

Fighters start as cavemen with clubs and finish as WW2 infantrymen.

Wizards start as mid-1700s frigates and finish as Imperial Star Destroyers.

Hey, have you never played Civilization? That caveman with a club is surprisingly good at knocking down tech!

[AvatarVecna]

Astral projection doesn't seem safe to me. The spell description says it leaves behind a silvery cord that "very few things can destroy". Now, I have no idea what can destroy a silvery cord (besides a ghitianki silver sword, courtesy of neverwinter nights 2), but I am pretty sure that if someone has the resources to get a shoot at a level 17+ wizard or cleric, he must be able to find something to break that silver cord. And since that cord can extend for thousands of kilometers across planes, you don't even need to engage the wizard to destroy it. I believe finding a way to destroy the solvery cord is much easier than finding a way to kill the wizard in some other way.

There's a few issues with attacking the Astral Projection cord. The first is that those silver gith swords are (to the best of my knowledge) the only official way to sever them; getting your hands on one shouldn't be too difficult, though, and if you're a high-op high-level fighter, you probably have one as a "in case I come across such a silvery cord while wandering the Astral Plane" weapon in your golf bag for poking mages in the eye for not defending their cord, or mitigating/undoing the damage. Of course, you could rule that other things could destroy it, but that gets into DM Fiat territory, which kinda cheapens the victory.

The second problem is that finding the cord is likely not very easy to do even on purpose (and is basically impossible to just wander across), even ignoring that it's both invisible (so you need See Invisibility or True Seeing up to even spot it) and incorporeal (so you can't even accidentally run into it if you can't see it). Locate Object has range issues (and only finds the closest one of the kind of thing you're searching for within range), Find The Path is potentially applicable depending on how strictly you interpret the spell, Scrying targets the Wizard (and would run into whatever anti-scrying, scry-cancelling, or scry-deceiving defenses they've got running), and Legend Lore can be vague and inaccurate (although multiple castings could do the trick as you gain more information). Your best bet will probably be using Discern Location, assuming that the Wizard's Mind Blank doesn't prevent you from finding his cord. Finding the cord by wandering through the Astral Plane in a random direction with True Seeing/See Invisibility up is a recipe for disaster; it's like trying to "guess what number I'm thinking of" when the number range is "1 to infinite, including all irrational numbers".

The third problem is if the Wizard has a Contingency (crafted or otherwise) dedicated to this kind of thing (something along the lines of "If anything happens that would end Astral Projection against my will, Celerity", which would activate if either body or the cord was threatened), the wizard can end the Astral Projection himself, or cast Time Stop to assess the situation. Because Contingency activates before the action that triggers it, you can't really out-draw it, as it were. Not really sure how to get around this one, other than the wizard being stupid and forgetting to cover his ass...alternatively, rather than a contingency guarding the cord, the wizard doesn't have anything guarding the cord, because the cord isn't connected to the wizard, but rather to the wizard's Simulacrum/Ice Assassin/friendly time travel clone. Personally, I think this misses the point of Astral Projection adventuring, but it's certainly a possibility. But this leads to the next problem:

Even if the wizard is actually attached to the cord, and doesn't have it guarded, death isn't much of an inconvenience for a Wizard this paranoid. Between Simulacrum, Clone, Ice Assassin, time travel clones,the possibility of a Death Pact (whether via an item or purchased spellcasting), or even a Craft Contingency: Wish (with the "raise the dead" option), the wizard is likely to come right back at you - or better, spend a few days learning how to absolutely destroy you, and then come back at you.

Bottom line: a fighter high-op enough that they can easily locate the cord undetected and attempt to sever it with the silver gith sword they have on hand is going to run into Contingency issues and tactics for mitigating/ignoring/undoing death. You've probably cost the wizard a bit of gold though (unless he's mitigating the spell material component costs in some fashion, I suppose), and if you manage to cut the cord, you've screwed up his schedule for the next few days probably. I'm probably missing a bunch of possibilities, though...

[Flickerdart]

A silver sword is, I believe, a minor artifact, so it's questionable how easy it is to obtain. A character wielding one also incurs the wrath of the entire githyanki race, and adding an entire species to his list of opponents doesn't seem like a great strategy for a duel.

[Zanos]

Githyanki silver swords can sever astral cords, but only technically.

In the hands of someone without the appropriate Exotic Weapon Proficiency feat, the weapon is clumsy (–4 penalty to attack rolls) and possesses only its enhancement bonus. A proficient user on the Astral Plane, however, is able to attack the silver cord that connects many astral travelers to their physical forms; the normally insubstantial cord is treated as a tangible object with hardness 10 and 20 hit points (see "Attack an Object" on page 135 in the Player’s Handbook). Attacking the silver cord draws an attack of opportunity from the astral traveler.
A silver cord visibly trails 5 feet behind an astral traveler before fading into the astral medium. When the cord is damaged, the astral traveler must succeed at a Fortitude save (DC 13) or be immediately forced to return to its body—which might be a good idea anyway if the traveler is not up to fighting githyanki on their home plane. If the silver cord is completely severed, the creature’s material body (and astral echo) is slain instantly. The cords of travelers with the Mind Blank power active are immune to silver swords.

If a silver sword falls into the hands of a nongithyanki, githyanki will kill the possessor if they can, steal it if they have to, negotiate if they must, or ally with the thief’s most potent foe as a last resort. Silver swords with an enhancement bonus of +5 and vorpal characteristics exist, but these are minor artifacts, relatively few, and only handed down to heroes of the race.

Manifester Level: 11th; Prerequisites: Craft Psionic Arms and Armor, creator must be a githyanki; Market Price: 98,350 gp; Cost to Create: 49,000 gp + 3920 XP.
These rules are technically from the 3.0 Psionics Handbook, but the only other writeup of githyank silver swords in the 3.5 monster manual leaves them with no price or way to craft them, so they can't be acquired using WBL.
So, requires EWP, you must be on the astral plane, doesn't work if the target has mind blank up, costs nearly 100k, can't be created by anyone who isn't a githyanki, and possessing one will make you the eternal foe of an entire race of beings that have a massively powerful support network and are headed, IIRC, by an epic level lich wizard. And yes, this is the only printed way to destroy an astral cord. Or you can pick the 3.5 writeup, under which you can't get one at all.

Good luck with that.

[AvatarVecna]

Githyanki silver swords can sever astral cords, but only technically.

These rules are technically from the 3.0 Psionics Handbook, but the only other writeup of githyank silver swords in the 3.5 monster manual leaves them with no price or way to craft them, so they can't be acquired using WBL.
So, requires EWP, you must be on the astral plane, doesn't work if the target has mind blank up, costs nearly 100k, can't be created by anyone who isn't a githyanki, and possessing one will make you the eternal foe of an entire race of beings that have a massively powerful support network and are headed, IIRC, by an epic level lich wizard. And yes, this is the only printed way to destroy an astral cord. Or you can pick the 3.5 writeup, under which you can't get one at all.

Good luck with that.

Well, you could steal one from a githyanki's corpse after killing them, but that's about it I think. Maybe limited wish/wish to get it?

[Zanos]

Well, you could steal one from a githyanki's corpse after killing them, but that's about it I think. Maybe limited wish/wish to get it?
A fighter going to the astral plane to slay the minion of a level 25 wizard to take their sacred racial weapon that they would wage war on the material plane to retrieve? Falls under the realm of something that is possible, but would require a failed intelligence check.

[Flickerdart]

Reading over the MMI 3.5 description, a silver cord has its owner's AC, and a high level wizard's AC can be very high indeed.

[Doctor Despair]

..., and Legend Lore can be vague and inaccurate (although multiple castings could do the trick as you gain more information).

I honestly prefer Legend Lore if it's applicable, since it can't be stopped by Mind Blank, but that assumes the wizard doesn't have some contingent spell like Celerity or whatnot that triggers on someone using legend lore on him or something intimiately related to him to give him time to apply God Blooded of Vecna. On the other hand... you could hire a bunch of folks to UMD Legend Lore to trigger all of them and desensitize the wizard to it, I spose. :p



The third problem is if the Wizard has a Contingency (crafted or otherwise) dedicated to this kind of thing (something along the lines of "If anything happens that would end Astral Projection against my will, Celerity", which would activate if either body or the cord was threatened), the wizard can end the Astral Projection himself, or cast Time Stop to assess the situation. Because Contingency activates before the action that triggers it, you can't really out-draw it, as it were.


So here the fighter needs to have an equal amount of contingent celerities worded to trigger one at a time on some similar trigger to "when someone's contingency triggers on an action I have taken" and then "when a contingency triggers from our first contingency triggering" and so on. The fighter's celerity should trigger first, letting him sever the cord.



... alternatively, rather than a contingency guarding the cord, the wizard doesn't have anything guarding the cord, because the cord isn't connected to the wizard, but rather to the wizard's Simulacrum/Ice Assassin/friendly time travel clone. Personally, I think this misses the point of Astral Projection adventuring, but it's certainly a possibility.


If the astral projection is a simulacrum, it only has half the wizard's power iirc, so that's not very efficient. An ice assassin might not be subject to the wizard's total control if it astral projection'd away, which is an issue since it does have the wizard's full power. If the wizard is using astral protection, I think it's safe to assume it is him using it. As for guards, the cord is infinitely long, iirc. It'd be an exercise in futility to place guards all along it -- or at least every 240 feet along it, as per the stealth suggestions I had above.



But this leads to the next problem:

Even if the wizard is actually attached to the cord, and doesn't have it guarded, death isn't much of an inconvenience for a Wizard this paranoid. Between Simulacrum, Clone, Ice Assassin, time travel clones,the possibility of a Death Pact (whether via an item or purchased spellcasting), or even a Craft Contingency: Wish (with the "raise the dead" option), the wizard is likely to come right back at you - or better, spend a few days learning how to absolutely destroy you, and then come back at you.


So here we have no real way to answer this, I think. We can apply God Blooded of Vecna to make the wizard forget about us and do it again, but the wizard, having forgotten about you, would probably just put up the same defenses -- including the ressurection -- so this would just play out over and over. I guess technically we might win a war of attrition here. Assuming we spend equal resources on the contingency spells, we'd be spending X uses of Legend Lore compared to the Y uses of Wish and other buffs we are dodging by using the silver-cord, so they might run shy of XP before we do in this scenario, assuming their factory of Ambrosia/WBL tricks isn't fast enough to keep up. This is dependent on the wizard being willing to use astral projection when he doesn't have the XP/gold to put up a contingent true ressurection/wish spell, though, which probably isn't a safe assumption. At best, we've put ourselves in a situation where we can infinitely tie up a wizard's resources and time and resources...
...
... although it occurs to me that the wizard we've described is using ice assassin. In the windows where the wizard is dead, the ice assassins have free reign. We may need only to do this once in order to set up some sort of chain reaction that could cause more irrevocable harm to the wizard. Still, a contingent death spell or something like that on the ice assassins would do him well enough in that case. Then again, the IAs may make the saves related to those spells. That could be promising.


Edit: The extra line about Mind Blank is a bit of a deal-breaker here. Sad days.

[tomandtish]

Funny you should say that... (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?511169-An-alternative-system-for-ranking-classes-Power-Projection)





Hey, have you never played Civilization? That caveman with a club is surprisingly good at knocking down tech!

Yes, but there are no wizards....

[Doctor Despair]

Oh, and of note, I suppose, is that the "fighter/rogue/wizard-impersonator" could apply God Blooded of Vecna after taking the sword to dodge the racial wrath from Githyanki.

[Gusmo]

Is MotP before or after the 3.0 psionics handbook? Either way, there's this, too.


These impressive weapons are carried by githyanki combatants of 7th level and higher. Of githyanki make, a silver sword is a +3 greatsword that looks much like a standard githyanki weapon. However, when the weapon is drawn in melee, the blade transforms into a column of silvery liquid, altering the weapon’s balance round by round as the blade’s shape flows and shimmers. In the hands of someone without the appropriate Exotic Weapon Proficiency feat, the weapon is clumsy (–4 penalty on attack rolls) and possesses only its enhancement bonus. A proficient user on the Astral Plane, however, is able to attack the silver cord that connects the astral form to its material counterpart. The normally insubstantial cord is treated as a tangible object with the owner’s AC, hardness 10, and 20 hit points (see Attack an Object page 135 of the Player’s Handbook). A silver cord visibly trails 5 feet behind an astral traveler before fading into the astral medium. Attacking it draws an attack of opportunity from the astral traveler.

When the cord is damaged, the astral traveler must succeed at a Fortitude save (DC 13) or be immediately forced to return to its body—which might be a goo didea anyway if the traveler is not up to fighting githyanki on their home plane. Severing the silver cord destroys both the astral form and the body on the Material Plane.

Silver swords with an enhancement bonus of +5 and vorpal characteristics exist, but these are minor artifacts, relatively few, and only handed down to heroes of the race. If a silver sword falls into the hands of a nongithyanki, githyanki kill the possessor if they can, steal the weapon if they have to, negotiate if they must, or ally with the thief ’s most potent foe as a last resort.

Caster Level: 11th; Prerequisites: Craft Magic Arms and Armor, creator must be a githyanki; Market Price: 98,350 gp; Cost to Create: 49,000 gp + 3,920 XP

Also in MotP is the astral dreadnought, which theoretically you could shapechange into to destroy silver cords. This is also not a particularly practical option. Then BoVD has the snare astral traveler spell I think? Snare astral traveler forces a will save though, and that's the universal good save among casters. Plus boosting saves in general is way easier than boosting spell DCs.

[Flickerdart]

Is MotP before or after the 3.0 psionics handbook? Either way, there's this, too.
Both are overwritten with the 3.5 Monster Manual I.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Githyanki silver swords can sever astral cords, but only technically.

These rules are technically from the 3.0 Psionics Handbook, but the only other writeup of githyank silver swords in the 3.5 monster manual leaves them with no price or way to craft them, so they can't be acquired using WBL.
So, requires EWP, you must be on the astral plane, doesn't work if the target has mind blank up, costs nearly 100k, can't be created by anyone who isn't a githyanki, and possessing one will make you the eternal foe of an entire race of beings that have a massively powerful support network and are headed, IIRC, by an epic level lich wizard. And yes, this is the only printed way to destroy an astral cord. Or you can pick the 3.5 writeup, under which you can't get one at all.

Good luck with that.

Psst. You're a little out of date.


ML 11th; Craft Psionic Arms and Armor, Creator must be githyanki, weapon must be made of alchemical silver, psionic banishment; price 50,530 gp, cost to create 25,530 gp + 2000 XP.

They cut the mind blank bit and the user doesn't have to be proficient anymore.

[Doctor Despair]

So we do or don't we bypass mind-blank? If so, are we just good to kill any mage that dares use Astral Projection personally and not via a Simulacrum at 1/2 power?

[King of Nowhere]

so, the silvery cord anyway only extends one and a half meters behind. you can't just find the cord and slay the wizard before he can realize something is wrong, it just makes it slightly easier to take down in battle. good thing they at least removed the part about mind blank, since astral projection was otherwise an absolute game-killer. I mean, "youu spend 1000 gp (which are pocket money way earlier than that level) and you can use it forever until uyou are killed. when you are finally killed, you just lose the 100 gp and can cast it again". Completely kills the gameplay.

Oh, and i thought contingencies could only trigger for something that the wizard had a way of knowing, including with divination. so if someone invisible and covered by mind blank is trying to do something that would set off the contingency, the contingency only set off later, because it has no way of knowing its condition has been met. I mean, it's a 6th level spell, it should not have omniscience.

finally, of course any character of that level is only mildly slowed by death. If nothing else, just contact a powerful cleric of a religion that is not at odds with you and pay him good money to be raised in case of death. or make that reciprocal, since you can use resurrection by wish. or you can probably get a scroll of true resurrection and find a way to use it as well. The only way to permanently disable a character of that level is to bind the soul or soemthing of the sort. And if you do that kind of thing, it may scare everyone else into submission, but it may also push other powerful people into joining against you for fear of being the next.

[Doctor Awkward]

So we do or don't we bypass mind-blank? If so, are we just good to kill any mage that dares use Astral Projection personally and not via a Simulacrum at 1/2 power?

Not really. Severing an astral cord still requires you to enter the wizard's personal space, which you are not going to do unless he allows it.

As further proof of concept, entirely separate from my first post, here's a reposting of a discussion from the old 339 boards regarding the general overpoweredness of Wizards. (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=4209.0)

In the original post, Lycanthromancer had a duel with his friend, using the rules noted in the link. His friend built a Fighter/melee character using every single resource created for 3.5 up to that point (I don't recall if it predated Tome of Battle, but it likely did). Lycanthromancer built a Wizard 20 using only Core. The repost up there includes handy SRD links so you can see everything Lycanthromancer needed to utterly trounce his opponent.

Now a number of mistakes were made during the execution of the duel, for certain, like applying Extend Spell metamagic to Time Stop and the questionable use of Gate to bring in templated creatures, but those are both really minor issues. The real point was the absolute defense of the wizard, combined with being able to effectively act from inside of it, and backup plans in case those defenses were pierced. The three big takeaways from that thought experiment, to quote the OP himself, were this:

1) Core-only is insanely broken and wildly unbalanced compared to core+splats.
2) Turtling is an effective strategy only if you can act from behind it.
3) "Run up and hit it" does not work on an intelligently played opponent. Period.


Lycanthromancer even admitted after the fact that he didn't really bother with the Wizard's feats (other than Quicken Spell). It could have been six iterations of Toughness. That's how little the feats mattered. Spell pouch. Spell book. Equipment. That's it. A wizard is defined by his spell selection more than anything else.

The point is that a melee character is never ever going to defeat a prepared spellcaster, no matter how optimized he might be.
This does not mean melee characters are not worth playing. Optimizing in a vacuum is way different than optimizing in an actual game, and is entirely dependent on what the DM will allow to fly at his table, and thus you can always create scenarios that will cause a wizard to lose.

It was already mentioned way back on page one, but most people who play optimized wizards make a point to not step on other people's fun. In fact, the entire philosophy of the GOD Wizard is that you don't defeat the enemies yourself. You prepare and cast the spells that enable the rest of the party to defeat the enemies for you. Those wizards embrace their role as part of the team, and everyone gets to have fun. I'm playing one in an E6 game right now, and the spells I use and prepare more than any other are Haste, Enlarge Person, Benign Transposition, Magic Circle against Evil, Summon Monster III, and the occasional Stinking Cloud. Occasionally, I do mop-up duty with Gloves of the Starry Sky, throwing unused 1st level spells for Magic Missiles.

[Doctor Despair]

Not really. Severing an astral cord still requires you to enter the wizard's personal space, which you are not going to do unless he allows it.


So severing the astral cord is a no-no, then. I suppose the only path we have is the strategy I described before where we take measures to be immune to anything that would give warning of our actions, make NI ice assassins of the wizard, as he himself has done, stack contingent disjunctions, and use Wish to port in and debuff his astral projected body. Then, presumably we can attack with a surprise round and fell him. Then, his ice assassins presumably either kill us (because we showed this capability) or help us take him down wherever he ressurected. The only issues here that I see are:

A. Needing to be able to overcome negative planar traits
B. Needing our contingent spells to be able to trigger through antimatic
C. Needing to be a caster, not a fighter, in order to match the wizard's IA and contingent spell production :p
D. This only works on wizards who do not take God Blooded of Vecna continuously for some reason

[AvatarVecna]

Oh, and i thought contingencies could only trigger for something that the wizard had a way of knowing, including with divination. so if someone invisible and covered by mind blank is trying to do something that would set off the contingency, the contingency only set off later, because it has no way of knowing its condition has been met. I mean, it's a 6th level spell, it should not have omniscience.

An interesting house rule I've seen used sometimes, sure, but not an actual rule. Contingency activates if the set trigger occurs, period. And for what it's worth, the explanation I've heard is "it's not the spell that's omniscient, it's magic itself" - essentially, Contingency is the force of magic (or gods of magic) informing the spell that the trigger was triggered, even if the spell itself doesn't know. It's essentially using magic's omniscience in place of your own perceptions in regards to this one particular thing.

Of course, than WoTC gave you a way to get more than one Contingency at a time, throwing that little balancing factor out the window. And of course, they made part of the crafting sub-system, which is super-easy to abuse.


finally, of course any character of that level is only mildly slowed by death. If nothing else, just contact a powerful cleric of a religion that is not at odds with you and pay him good money to be raised in case of death. or make that reciprocal, since you can use resurrection by wish. or you can probably get a scroll of true resurrection and find a way to use it as well. The only way to permanently disable a character of that level is to bind the soul or soemthing of the sort. And if you do that kind of thing, it may scare everyone else into submission, but it may also push other powerful people into joining against you for fear of being the next.

Right. And unless your super-fighter is on the Wizard's demiplane, he won't be able to soul-bind him even if the wizard didn't have some kind of contingent resurrection effect on him. Sure, you're next to the Astral Projection you just killed, but that's not the actual wizard, so you can't really soul bind it...I think? Admittedly, AP is really weird.

The problem with paying a cleric to do it (which the fighter could do) is that it takes time to locate a cleric once you're dead; there's probably a couple high-level clerics floating around the afterlife somewhere who share your alignment and disposition, but it'll take time to locate them, and convince them. The reason the wizard's methods got mentioned at all is because they were, for the most part, entirely self-reliant. You killed the wizard? He had a clone/simulacrum/ice assassin of himself waiting to take over, and you've done nothing but take out one of his many bodies. Or his Craft Contingency: Wish or his item of Death Pact resurrected him the picosecond he died. No outside help needed, no time spent after death setting things up, just "he's alive again/still" - which, of course, makes soul-binding and the like more difficult.

[King of Nowhere]

at least clone loses a level, as opposed to true resurrection, so you "only" have to kill the wizard a half dozen times before he's not able anymore to fight back efficiently

[ryu]

at least clone loses a level, as opposed to true resurrection, so you "only" have to kill the wizard a half dozen times before he's not able anymore to fight back efficiently

Why hello sir. Tell me are you familiar with thought bottle?

[Doctor Despair]

Killing him once could be enough since it turns all his ice assassins against him. They all immediate action teleport away, out of his mind control range; now you've broken parity. If he has used contingencies for it, you have more contingencies freed up to respond.

[ryu]

Killing him once could be enough since it turns all his ice assassins against him. They all immediate action teleport away, out of his mind control range; now you've broken parity. If he has used contingencies for it, you have more contingencies freed up to respond.

Actually that doesn't work. They're incapable of disobeying and therefore can be ordered to obey standing orders even after death. Nice try though.

[Doctor Despair]

Actually that doesn't work. They're incapable of disobeying and therefore can be ordered to obey standing orders even after death. Nice try though.

The ice assassin is under your absolute command.
You possess a telepathic link to the ice assassin, and when you concentrate, you receive a clear image of the area surrounding the ice assassin as if you were scrying it.
Further, you can have any spell you cast on yourself affect the ice assassin as well; this includes spells with a target of "You" only.
These benefits persist as long as you and the ice assassin remain within a mile of each other.

Emphasis mine. You can order them to, but there is no text saying what they do when you are not there to give commands.

[ryu]

The ice assassin is under your absolute command.
You possess a telepathic link to the ice assassin, and when you concentrate, you receive a clear image of the area surrounding the ice assassin as if you were scrying it.
Further, you can have any spell you cast on yourself affect the ice assassin as well; this includes spells with a target of "You" only.
These benefits persist as long as you and the ice assassin remain within a mile of each other.

Emphasis mine. You can order them to, but there is no text saying what they do when you are not there to give commands.

Yes, and it's still within a mile of me. I'm just dead is all and briefly at that.

[Doctor Despair]

Being high int wizards, when you are dead, they all use immediate actions to planeshift away, out of your control.

Edit: oh, that's what you're getting at. I'd argue that you aren't you at that point, since at that point we're getting into IronHeartSurging death territory

[ryu]

Being high int wizards, when you are dead, they all use immediate actions to planeshift away, out of your control.

Edit: oh, that's what you're getting at. I'd argue that you aren't you at that point, since at that point we're getting into IronHeartSurging death territory

No no. You can easily point at a corpse and say just who it is. As a matter of fact most forms of resurrection require the body to remove the dead condition from it.

[Templarkommando]

That's just the thing though. Without the use of magic, you never get that surprise round because wizards *will* have protection up, even if not the crazy ones I described. At a minimum... Persisted Foresight and one use of Nerveskitter mean the fighter will not get a surprise round and probably doesn't go first in initiative. One use of the hide life spell a month or something like that means the fighter can never kill a mage with direct damage. A contingent effect of Freedom of Movement prevents grappling, so a standard non-caster fighter has officially run out of options for this.

As for requiring that a wizard nail down his particular spell list... Foresight alone would tell a wizard what spells to prepare and persist that day. I'm sure there are others along that line as well, but that's the most powerful one I can think of -- and one a wizard will probably persist regardless of his other plans. The advantage to wizards is just that big -- four spells mean the wizard goes first (and at bare minimum can teleport away), can't be surprise, is immune to damage, and is immune to grappling, the two main ways for fighters to attack. If we are really counting on wizards not to use any protections, like you said, then we aren't really attacking a wizard, we're attacking a level 20 expert in a funny hat.

I think your first paragraph is pretty well on the nose. There is A LOT that wizards have a their disposal to throw everything that a fighter has into question, but I think your second paragraph is problematic. First, if our fight between a fighter and wizard happens spontaneously between PCs, I can't think of a good way to justify just changing the wizard's spell list willy-nilly. I don't think it's against the rules for a fighter to use strategy when fighting a wizard that is a really really dangerous opponent. Come to think of it, the best time of day to attack a wizard would be at the end of a long day after he's cast a lot of spells. A fighter can't afford to fight stupid going in to a situation like this, he has to fight smart, because his opponent in this exercise has a myriad of "I win" buttons. What I'm saying here is that a fighter CAN take down a wizard, but it relies on a ton of planning, good intelligence, and sheer dumb luck. My personal bet is that 9 times out of 10 the wizard wins without even trying.

[Flickerdart]

changing the wizard's spell list willy-nilly

That's sort of the issue, though - the wizard's spell list that's good against fighters is also good against everything else. No special, unusual spells are required.

[Doctor Despair]

No no. You can easily point at a corpse and say just who it is. As a matter of fact most forms of resurrection require the body to remove the dead condition from it.

How well the body resembles the person that inhabited it isn't a good marker; otherwise a very good statue would suffice to be "you."

Also, do they explicitly say they remove the "dead" condition? I was always under the impression the soul was treated as a separate entity in DnD. You, the soul, are afflicted with the dead condition and sent off to the afterlife. Ressurection then calls "you" back to the corpse to animate it again, sometimes using the body or part of the body as a material cost or, perhaps more accurately, a focus to target "you" with. A distinction here is that "you" can refuse to come back with a lot of spells, which would be represented by a will save if it were as simple as just resisting a magical effect if you were the body. This is also why just animating the body with a spell like Animate Undead or whatever doesn't count as ressurection, even though the body is now undead, and why things like True Mind Switch wouldn't hand over other abilities besides physical ones. Let's see if the text of some ressurection spells suggest all they do is clear the "dead" condition...

Raise dead requires a body, and "restores life to a deceased creature", but also says "In addition, the subject’s soul must be free and willing to return. If the subject’s soul is not willing to return, the spell does not work; therefore, a subject that wants to return receives no saving throw." A soul may not be defined in rules text, but traditionally that would be considered "you." Magic Jar discusses how a soul merely controls a body, once again implying identity outside of just being a body. Your body is lifeless, but you, as a soul, continue to act.


True Ressurection requires no body at all -- point me, since it also implies you exist outside of that body.

Reincarnation goes as far as to give you an entirely new body, but lets you retain memories, class skills, etc. Once again, your old body is not "you" here.

I think it's safe to say your corpse is not "you", but perhaps closest described as just your "natural body" as in mind switch, but ice Assassin explicitly says the range is dependent on where you are. Until you are reanimated, your soul is wherever souls are in DnD. Certainly it's not present, however, since raise dead discusses how a soul must return. Is there canon / RAW for where a soul goes beyond a vague "gone, somewhere"?

Edit: glanced at the text for "dead"

Dead
The character’s hit points are reduced to -10, his Constitution drops to 0, or he is killed outright by a spell or effect. The character’s soul leaves his body. Dead characters cannot benefit from normal or magical healing, but they can be restored to life via magic. A dead body decays normally unless magically preserved, but magic that restores a dead character to life also restores the body either to full health or to its condition at the time of death (depending on the spell or device). Either way, resurrected characters need not worry about rigor mortis, decomposition, and other conditions that affect dead bodies.

A clear distinction is made between a dead body and a dead character; that may be the closest we get to a RAW distinction on whether "you" are the body or the soul, since it says a dead character is the soul.

[Inevitability]

That's sort of the issue, though - the wizard's spell list that's good against fighters is also good against everything else. No special, unusual spells are required.

I'd go as far to say a fighter is one of the easiest classes to take down without preparation, with perhaps only the barbarian being more predictable amongst PHB classes.

Casters are obviously diverse in builds and strategies, with rogues the ideal spells will at least vary somewhat based on the rogue being melee or ranged, and even monks still have a number of obscure ACF's that might require some thinking to get around. Fighters, on the other hand, are locked into ubercharging, dungeoncrashing or intimidating: two of which are easy to avoid with basic magic and the third any self-respecting wizard will be immune to anyway: Mind Blank is basically assumed in all high-level optimization scenarios.

[ryu]

How well the body resembles the person that inhabited it isn't a good marker; otherwise a very good statue would suffice to be "you."

Also, do they explicitly say they remove the "dead" condition? I was always under the impression the soul was treated as a separate entity in DnD. You, the soul, are afflicted with the dead condition and sent off to the afterlife. Ressurection then calls "you" back to the corpse to animate it again, sometimes using the body or part of the body as a material cost or, perhaps more accurately, a focus to target "you" with. A distinction here is that "you" can refuse to come back with a lot of spells, which would be represented by a will save if it were as simple as just resisting a magical effect if you were the body. This is also why just animating the body with a spell like Animate Undead or whatever doesn't count as ressurection, even though the body is now undead, and why things like True Mind Switch wouldn't hand over other abilities besides physical ones. Let's see if the text of some ressurection spells suggest all they do is clear the "dead" condition...

Raise dead requires a body, and "restores life to a deceased creature", but also says "In addition, the subject’s soul must be free and willing to return. If the subject’s soul is not willing to return, the spell does not work; therefore, a subject that wants to return receives no saving throw." A soul may not be defined in rules text, but traditionally that would be considered "you." Magic Jar discusses how a soul merely controls a body, once again implying identity outside of just being a body. Your body is lifeless, but you, as a soul, continue to act.


True Ressurection requires no body at all -- point me, since it also implies you exist outside of that body.

Reincarnation goes as far as to give you an entirely new body, but lets you retain memories, class skills, etc. Once again, your old body is not "you" here.

I think it's safe to say your corpse is not "you", but perhaps closest described as just your "natural body" as in mind switch, but ice Assassin explicitly says the range is dependent on where you are. Until you are reanimated, your soul is wherever souls are in DnD. Certainly it's not present, however, since raise dead discusses how a soul must return. Is there canon / RAW for where a soul goes beyond a vague "gone, somewhere"?

Edit: glanced at the text for "dead"

Dead
The character’s hit points are reduced to -10, his Constitution drops to 0, or he is killed outright by a spell or effect. The character’s soul leaves his body. Dead characters cannot benefit from normal or magical healing, but they can be restored to life via magic. A dead body decays normally unless magically preserved, but magic that restores a dead character to life also restores the body either to full health or to its condition at the time of death (depending on the spell or device). Either way, resurrected characters need not worry about rigor mortis, decomposition, and other conditions that affect dead bodies.

A clear distinction is made between a dead body and a dead character; that may be the closest we get to a RAW distinction on whether "you" are the body or the soul, since it says a dead character is the soul.

Actually read the spoiler again. It says any magic which restores a dead character to life also restores the body. Wanna see what happens if you treat those two as separate entities? With spells that don't require a body as a material component? Oh it feels SO GOOD to be able to demonstrate that someone else's interpretation of RAW leads to dumber things happening than mine. I'm usually the worlds maddest man. Now I'M the sane one.

[Doctor Despair]

Actually read the spoiler again. It says any magic which restores a dead character to life also restores the body. Wanna see what happens if you treat those two as separate entities? With spells that don't require a body as a material component? Oh it feels SO GOOD to be able to demonstrate that someone else's interpretation of RAW leads to dumber things happening than mine. I'm usually the worlds maddest man. Now I'M the sane one.

So we have a precedent for a body without a soul being lifeless in Magic Jar.

Dead characters, in general, when restored to life, also have their dead body restored to life.

A typical ressurection, then, restores both body and soul to life such that no live characters are without a body.

If you look to specific ressurections (my phone hates typing that for some reason), they give specific rules on whether or not a body is required and whether or not they make a new one. While there are specific provisions about what happens to the soul that override the general rules, I obviously we would also need rules for what happens to the body or else we end up with your dysfunction where a soul is returned to life in a new body and a body, separately, must then return to full health. Let's see...

True Res works without a body, but only when there is no body to use -- it doesn't work if the body exists somewhere you can't reach it. That's not a conflict, then, since it works as of Raise Dead which does require a body.

Reincarnate is interesting. RAI, it wouldn't be an issue, but by RAW it doesn't say "With this spell, you bring back a dead creature in another body instead of its own..."

I don't think there's in issue in whether "the character" is the soul or body; I think that's pretty clear. You're right, though, that the rules around reanimation are pretty dysfunctional. I suppose a RAW way to read it would be that the body returns to full health, but retains the dead condition, returning it to -10, or that it returns the body to full health (using the rules for items having hit points and treating the body as an object), or returning the body to full health and leaving it "lifeless" or, in other words, commatose. The most broken reading is that you now have two characters. That's a fun one.

Edit:

To the last, more broken reading... Did we... Did we just create an origin story for the Dvaati race?

[ryu]

So we have a precedent for a body without a soul being lifeless in Magic Jar.

Dead characters, in general, when restored to life, also have their dead body restored to life.

A typical ressurection, then, restores both body and soul to life such that no live characters are without a body.

If you look to specific ressurections (my phone hates typing that for some reason), they give specific rules on whether or not a body is required and whether or not they make a new one. While there are specific provisions about what happens to the soul that override the general rules, I obviously we would also need rules for what happens to the body or else we end up with your dysfunction where a soul is returned to life in a new body and a body, separately, must then return to full health. Let's see...

True Res works without a body, but only when there is no body to use -- it doesn't work if the body exists somewhere you can't reach it. That's not a conflict, then, since it works as of Raise Dead which does require a body.

Reincarnate is interesting. RAI, it wouldn't be an issue, but by RAW it doesn't say "With this spell, you bring back a dead creature in another body instead of its own..."

I don't think there's in issue in whether "the character" is the soul or body; I think that's pretty clear. You're right, though, that the rules around reanimation are pretty dysfunctional. I suppose a RAW way to read it would be that the body returns to full health, but retains the dead condition, returning it to -10, or that it returns the body to full health (using the rules for items having hit points and treating the body as an object), or returning the body to full health and leaving it "lifeless" or, in other words, commatose. The most broken reading is that you now have two characters. That's a fun one.

That's just it though. Your reading breaks open several spells that see regular use. Mine causes a mildly contentious thing to happen in an edge case so obscenely rare and specific that I've never had need to bring up this argument before now. If you wanna argue the thing that makes less stupid things happen is correct, treating them as the same entity makes things WAY simpler.

Also what the hell are you talking about true res requiring you have the body if one exists? That's not a thing. I literally just read the spell to confirm.

[Doctor Despair]

That's just it though. Your reading breaks open several spells that see regular use. Mine causes a mildly contentious thing to happen in an edge case so obscenely rare and specific that I've never had need to bring up this argument before now. If you wanna argue the thing that makes less stupid things happen is correct, treating them as the same entity makes things WAY simpler.

Also what the hell are you talking about true res requiring you have the body if one exists? That's not a thing. I literally just read the spell to confirm.


"This spell functions like raise dead, except that you can resurrect a creature that has been dead for as long as 10 years per caster level. This spell can even bring back creatures whose bodies have been destroyed, provided that you unambiguously identify the deceased in some fashion (reciting the deceased’s time and place of birth or death is the most common method)."

Never says you don't need the body if the body wasn't destroyed

Edit:

Sorry for not responding to the whole post at once; I had to pick up the kids from lunch and drop them off at recess.

To the first section: I mean, there are RAW ways to interpret the interaction without incident if we treat them as separate entities. It's up to the DM in the case of ambiguity, so it's a non-incident. It also seems more accurate to treat them as separate entities.

[ryu]

"This spell functions like raise dead, except that you can resurrect a creature that has been dead for as long as 10 years per caster level. This spell can even bring back creatures whose bodies have been destroyed, provided that you unambiguously identify the deceased in some fashion (reciting the deceased’s time and place of birth or death is the most common method)."

Never says you don't need the body if the body wasn't destroyed

Edit:

Sorry for not responding to the whole post at once; I had to pick up the kids from lunch and drop them off at recess.

To the first section: I mean, there are RAW ways to interpret the interaction without incident if we treat them as separate entities. It's up to the DM in the case of ambiguity, so it's a non-incident. It also seems more accurate to treat them as separate entities.

That just raises even more stupid questions about what the hell happens if knowledge of corpse destruction doesn't exist, or if the person has been resed from a destroyed body before. Seriously. You don't wanna keep going. It's dysfunctions all the way down if you take this reading.

[Doctor Despair]

That just raises even more stupid questions about what the hell happens if knowledge of corpse destruction doesn't exist, or if the person has been resed from a destroyed body before. Seriously. You don't wanna keep going. It's dysfunctions all the way down if you take this reading.

Clearly, looking at True Res that way, it would fizzle and consume a spell slot -- or just fail to cast at all. Even if we abandon that reading of true res, though, it still doesn't mean we should treat soul and body as one entity.

[ryu]

Clearly, looking at True Res that way, it would fizzle and consume a spell slot -- or just fail to cast at all. Even if we abandon that reading of true res, though, it still doesn't mean we should treat soul and body as one entity.

No I mean what happens when a person has unambiguously had a body of their's destroyed, got revived, then died again with an undestroyed body. After all in this scenario the creature has had a body they were in possession of destroyed.

I mean there are two proposed readings. Soul and body as separate entities that make all this insanity or as one entity that doesn't. I mean are you trying to argue for a three or more piece system here?

[Doctor Despair]

No I mean what happens when a person has unambiguously had a body of their's destroyed, got revived, then died again with an undestroyed body. After all in this scenario the creature has had a body they were in possession of destroyed.

I mean there are two proposed readings. Soul and body as separate entities that make all this insanity or as one entity that doesn't. I mean are you trying to argue for a three or more piece system here?

I propose a two part system, as suggested by the text in True Mind Switch, with a natural body and a soul. That also answers your first query, I think.

[ryu]

I propose a two part system, as suggested by the text in True Mind Switch, with a natural body and a soul. That also answers your first query, I think.

So basically what you're saying is that having your body destroyed once is the only requirement to completely void the body requirement you claim exists, which further means that any properly paranoid party is going to manually go through those steps themselves on every member just to assure they never have to deal with it? Interesting opinion. Do keep in mind that now two ridiculous things happen for every character that uses the spell in actual play instead of just one.

[Templarkommando]

That's sort of the issue, though - the wizard's spell list that's good against fighters is also good against everything else. No special, unusual spells are required.

I can agree with you on this. That's mostly why my best strategy for a fighter relies on the wizard having exhausted a good portion of his spells in addition to getting what amounts to a two-round jump on your target, and that it still fails at least 9 times out of 10. A wizard that hasn't cast any spells for the day at level 20 has something like forty spells that can be cast. When you consider that's at least one spell every round for the next forty rounds, you're talking about an immense amount of firepower, even if the spells aren't specifically intended to rain on a fighter's parade. I would say that the fighter is facing an uphill battle, but it's really more like scaling the face of a sheer cliff with no handholds or footholds... maybe swimming up a waterfall.

[Flickerdart]

maybe swimming up a waterfall.
The irony is that swimming up a waterfall is exactly the sort of thing that should be trivial for a 20th level master of physical combat.

[Doctor Despair]

... Interesting opinion. Do keep in mind that now two ridiculous things happen for every character that uses the spell in actual play instead of just one.

It's not just an opinion; it has basis in RAW. At the very least, regardless of which interpretation you ascribe to, you must admit it's a muddy area by RAW and subject to DM interpretation, so it's not safe to assume a wizard's commands to Ice Assassins persist after death

[Doctor Awkward]

It's not just an opinion; it has basis in RAW. At the very least, regardless of which interpretation you ascribe to, you must admit it's a muddy area by RAW and subject to DM interpretation, so it's not safe to assume a wizard's commands to Ice Assassins persist after death

According to page 90 of the 3.5 FAQ:


If a spellcaster dies after summoning a monster, does
the monster continue to fight?
A summoned monster continues to carry out your last
command as best it can, or it attacks your opponents (whoever
they were when you died) failing that.

So there is precedent in the rules both for a spellcaster's spells persisting after his death, and for broad commands to be carried out indefinitely.

[Doctor Despair]

It's not a summoned monster, so that's not exactly a perfect parallel. We also have text suggesting that Planar Binding makes those under its command disobey or try to get revenge at the first opportunity, if we are looking for generalities. In any event, Ice Assassin says the Assassin is not subject to your commands at all once you are not within a mile of it, which is the basis of this argument. If you are dead, it is not clear that "you" are within a mile of it, so I say it'd be free to do as it likes -- which is plot the death of the wizard

[Doctor Awkward]

It's not a summoned monster, so that's not exactly a perfect parallel. We also have text suggesting that Planar Binding makes those under its command disobey or try to get revenge at the first opportunity, if we are looking for generalities. In any event, Ice Assassin says the Assassin is not subject to your commands at all once you are not within a mile of it, which is the basis of this argument. If you are dead, it is not clear that "you" are within a mile of it, so I say it'd be free to do as it likes -- which is plot the death of the wizard

What prevents the Ice Assassin from falling back under the wizard's control when it comes back within a mile of it?

[Doctor Despair]

What prevents the Ice Assassin from falling back under the wizard's control when it comes back within a mile of it?

Nothing; hence it leaving the premesis immediately. Or maybe not. We just used Mages Disjunction on the wizard before we killed him; it may be that his contingencies revive him elsewhere.

[Sword-Geass]

Core Wizard vs Core Fighter is an attack helicopter vs a grizzly bear.
Full Splat Wizard vs Full Splat Fighter is an attack helicopter with missiles and a cloaking system vs a mutant cyborg grizzly bear that spits acid.

The fighter still loses, but at least he gets to look really cool while doing it.

May I sig this? Please? :smallbiggrin:

[Mordaedil]

A poorly prepared wizard against a poorly prepared fighter, maybe the fighter could win. I think it's almost more challenging to think of what setup of spells you'd have to have in order to be ineffective against a fighter, but maybe that's just me.

Even if a fighter is right on top of the wizards face, with the wizard given no preparation ahead and not buffs, only items he'd use in every other sense, he's just a quickened hold person (monster?) spell away from winning. Even if he loses initative, the fighter can't kill him in one hit unless he strikes massive damage barrier.

I think it's really futile to argue from a perspective of a wizard how many ways he can win over the fighter. It'd be more fair to pit a cleric against the wizard, honestly.

[Inevitability]

A poorly prepared wizard against a poorly prepared fighter, maybe the fighter could win. I think it's almost more challenging to think of what setup of spells you'd have to have in order to be ineffective against a fighter, but maybe that's just me.

Even if a fighter is right on top of the wizards face, with the wizard given no preparation ahead and not buffs, only items he'd use in every other sense, he's just a quickened hold person (monster?) spell away from winning. Even if he loses initative, the fighter can't kill him in one hit unless he strikes massive damage barrier.

I think it's really futile to argue from a perspective of a wizard how many ways he can win over the fighter. It'd be more fair to pit a cleric against the wizard, honestly.

Allow me to point out that an optimized fighter is very capable of dealing enough damage to kill a defenseless wizard. Damage measuring in the thousands is entirely possible, and any but the strongest of wizards will have no more than a few hundred HP.

Of course, the reason for that is that the wizard doesn't really need all that HP, being able to protect himself in far more absolute ways. Still, should all these other ways be suppressed or circumvented, a well-built fighter could certainly kill said wizard in one hit.

[Mordaedil]

Can it be done without a crit and without enchanted weapons? I know a few multiclasses where it is possible, but a straight fighter?

[Inevitability]

Can it be done without a crit and without enchanted weapons? I know a few multiclasses where it is possible, but a straight fighter?

Oh, definitely. Valorous weapon, shock trooper, power attack, headlong rush, perhaps Weapon Supremacy to ensure a 10 on the attack roll... Even if the fighter lacks Pounce they'll be dealing a few hundred points of damage, which is more than enough against a wizard's HP (which even with necropolitian and improved toughness barely exceeds 150).

[Sword-Geass]

(which even with necropolitian and improved toughness barely exceeds 150).

Minor nitpick, an (optimized obviously) Necropolitan will have more than that HP. Considering that he was created:
* In a desecrated area, for +2 HP per HD.
* By someone with the Corpsecrafter feat, for another +2 HP per HD (and +4 enhancement to Strenght, but we don't care). Corpsecrafter only works with spells, thanks Tiri.
* And that someone was either a Wizard 1 with the Necromancer variant from Unearthed Arcana or a Dread Necromancer 8 for another +2 HP per HD (and +4 enhancement to Str and Dex).

Our Necropolitan averages 12.5 10.5 HP per HD, for an average of 255.5 215.5 at level 20... and then he could use Draconic Polymorph or Shapechange to turn into any creature which has a Con score to gain even more HP (and a better Fort save, also).


The subject gains the Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution scores of the new form but retains its own Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores.
The subject retains its own mind, but its body is transformed into a semblance of the assumed form. Unlike previous versions of the D&D game, the subject's hit points change according to his new Constitution score. The subject's Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution scores revert to normal when resuming its normal form, which may prompt another change in hit points.

Rules of the Game: Polymorphing (Part Three) (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040525a)

[Tiri]

Actually, Corpsecrafter benefits only apply to spell-created undead. Necropolitans are not spell-created.

[Sword-Geass]

Actually, Corpsecrafter benefits only apply to spell-created undead. Necropolitans are not spell-created.

True, that means 40 less HP. Not that it really changes the odds of survival against a charger, or the odds of said charger actually reaching, hitting, or damaging a Wizard :smallbiggrin:

Will edit to reflect that mistake though.

[Zanos]

Actually, Corpsecrafter benefits only apply to spell-created undead. Necropolitans are not spell-created.
I can't wait for the argument that the Rite of Circumigration doesn't say it doesn't involve necromancy spells.

[Doctor Despair]

I can't wait for the argument that the Rite of Circumigration doesn't say it doesn't involve necromancy spells.

Wouldn't that argument mean that Necropolitans can be dispelled? XD

[Zanos]

Wouldn't that argument mean that Necropolitans can be dispelled? XD
No, there are instantaneous necromancy spells. Like animate dead.

But I have seen this argued literally every time buff necropolitians are brought up. Half the stuff people think works on them actually doesn't.

[Tiri]

I can't wait for the argument that the Rite of Circumigration doesn't say it doesn't involve necromancy spells.

Even then, the necropolitan wouldn't have been created by the spell. It would have been created by the Rite, which includes a spell, but that's not the same thing.

[Blu]

The wizard could just Summon monster something the fighter to death, just for the lulz.
Even using subpar or poor choices of spells, he wins.
And if the fighter trys to get cheesy, the wizard gets more.
A good comparison between the lvl 20 wizard and lvl 20 fighter is that the fighter uses his good bba to make 4 attacks per turn while the wizard is off shaping reality or something

[GiantFlyingHog]

In the end, no matter what spells the wizard has prepared, as long as they have, at some point, cast clone, they will be fine and will probably wish you to non-existence later.

[Mikezster]

In a straight up " Ten paces, count to three, turn, The fighter would be obliterated almost every time. At that level the fighter would have a much better chance pursuing the Wizard over a LOOONNG period of time, and trying to burn out all the contingencies. Never giving the chance to rest naturally, forcing the wizard to burn through time stop contingencies and magnificent mansions to be able to recover spell slots in peace.

In short. In pure mathhammer, the wizard would win every time. If it were actually played between two intelligent players, taking as long as they need, the Fighter has a better shot, but not by much.

[Eldariel]

In a straight up " Ten paces, count to three, turn, The fighter would be obliterated almost every time. At that level the fighter would have a much better chance pursuing the Wizard over a LOOONNG period of time, and trying to burn out all the contingencies. Never giving the chance to rest naturally, forcing the wizard to burn through time stop contingencies and magnificent mansions to be able to recover spell slots in peace.

In short. In pure mathhammer, the wizard would win every time. If it were actually played between two intelligent players, taking as long as they need, the Fighter has a better shot, but not by much.

Could you please extrapolate on how exactly a Fighter can chase a Wizard? And avoid dying after forcing the Wizard to blow one Time Stop, Contingency? And how is the Wizard even losing any resources at all if he can rest in a Magnificent Mansion and regain all his spells at will? How can a Fighter chase someone who can teleport, plane shift, burrow, go ethereal, etc.? What relevant abilities does the Fighter have that the Wizard does not? Which advantages are we talking about?

If anything it's the other way around - the Wizard can chase the Fighter to the ends of the world while the Fighter has no choice but to be prepared at every instant and no means to reach the Wizard except when the Wizard allows him to. But there's no need for this since the second they encounter a Wizard can obliterate the Fighter while the Fighter can fail to obliterate the Wizard and get obliterated in turn. There's no chase if the Fighter is fine red mist, his soul trapped and consumed as a spell component, his truename annihilated, his body rapidly aged to natural death beyond restoration or whatever. And the initiative is on the side that can move 400 miles per second, cross planar boundaries, view targets from a distance, etc. - not the one that's moving ~10' per second on a good day. The Fighter lacks the means to disengage. The Wizard, not so much.

[ryu]

In a straight up " Ten paces, count to three, turn, The fighter would be obliterated almost every time. At that level the fighter would have a much better chance pursuing the Wizard over a LOOONNG period of time, and trying to burn out all the contingencies. Never giving the chance to rest naturally, forcing the wizard to burn through time stop contingencies and magnificent mansions to be able to recover spell slots in peace.

In short. In pure mathhammer, the wizard would win every time. If it were actually played between two intelligent players, taking as long as they need, the Fighter has a better shot, but not by much.

Except that is literally the scenario that most favors wizards. The wizard literally just decide to recharge resources at any time by means of travel the fighter cannot pursue in a timely fashion if at all. Oh or just literally curbstomping the fighter. Cat and mouse is a game you only want to play if you're the cat.

[Aharon]

Assuming the fighter has something the wizard wants, if the standard 3.5 Great Wheel cosmology is used, the fighter can chose the battlefield -> close to the spire, where all magic is nullified. He would have a decent chance at fighting there.

[Deeds]

Hmm, it's possible but unlikely. The collective pantheon of deities could use the level 20 fighter's wealth, defeat the level 20 wizard, and ask the fighter to do the coup de grace. Even so, there's a 99% chance that the coup de grace fails, the fighter's head pops off for no reason, and every deity loses all their followers simultaneously thanks to a level 2 spell from Dragon Magazine issue 324. Wizard's are that broken yo.

[Eldariel]

Assuming the fighter has something the wizard wants, if the standard 3.5 Great Wheel cosmology is used, the fighter can chose the battlefield -> close to the spire, where all magic is nullified. He would have a decent chance at fighting there.

But if the Fighter is just hanging in there, what motivation does the Wizard have to ever approach him? It seems much more efficient to just send a bunch of martial underlings, shifting them in and sending them to approach the oldfashioned way. It should be quite possible for a Wizard to produce powerful enough things to take out the Fighter (Gate comes to mind in addition to the usual Undead/Planar Bindings/Simulacrums) and if the Fighter is hanging out in there the Wizard has literally 0 reason to hurry along or personally ever come within 1000 miles of the Fighter. Hell, the attackers can be inserted at will via. Wishportation in spite of the magic restrictions. And if the Wizard so desires, he can get stuff and Mindrape 'em to ensure eternal loyalty.

Of course, since Dead Magic functions like Antimagic Field and Limited Magic functions as Dead Magic for things it limits, Outlands does not actually prohibit the use of Invoke Magic. However, I still see zero reason for a Wizard to actually personally enter a Null Magic Plane of any kind.

In general, turtle tactics will never provide even a chance at victory for the Fighter. Give the Wizard infinite time to prepare and there's absolutely no way for him to lose no matter what. The side that can get the first strike has a huge advantage, and such a tactic concedes said advantage to the Wizard with the added stipulation that the Wizard is free to consolidate power as long as they deem necessary until they can attack with a 0% chance of failure. That's the last thing anyone fighting a Wizard should do: few things can benefit as much of time as Wizards (though they do not, of course, need it to fight a Fighter normally).

[Mato]

Q: Can a fighter take off a mage in a perfect fight?
A: Link (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0168.html)
/thread.