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Vaern
2017-01-22, 03:55 PM
How do reserve feats work for Elemental Savants?

Their description says that the descriptor and energy type of their spells changes when they cast the spell. So from the sound of it, a wizard/elemental savant (air) prepares a Fireball [Fire], but casts a Fireball [Lightning].

Now, let's look at Storm Bolt. In order to use the ability, you need to have at least a 3rd-level lightning spell available to cast. Suppose the aforementioned fireball is the only spell that the wizard has left in his arsenal: He doesn't have a lightning spell prepared, but, as it becomes lightning when he uses it, is it technically considered a lightning spell available to cast?

Similarly, suppose the same wizard has for some reason picked up Fiery Burst, which is worded similarly. He has a fire spell prepared, but it becomes a lightning spell when he casts it, so it isn't exactly a fire spell available to cast.

And as far as sorcerers go, I'm assuming that the spells available are treated similarly to a spell prepared by a wizard. Rather than having Fireball [Lightning] on his list of available spells to cast, he has Fireball [Fire] available, which becomes Fireball [Lightning] when he chooses to expend a spell slot to cast it.

The character in particular which I've been playing with is a sorcerer/elemental savant of water, who happens to have a lot of fire spells along with Winter's Blast. And, like the last thread regarding this character (cold-substituted fire spells and catching fire), the DM for the group has already made a ruling, but I always like to see extra opinions on such things in case the same situation arises in another group.
In my case, the DM decided that all of my available spells are trapped in a quantum state of arcane superposition in which they are treated as both cold and fire spells for the purpose of reserve feats until they are cast, and at that point they collapse into a definitive state of cold. Because, you know, why the hell not?

Telok
2017-01-22, 06:04 PM
Honestly it seems totally reasonable to go either way with it. You're DM's call is sounds fine.

Doesn't that prestige class require the energy sub feat any ways? That would fix the question anyways.

Vaern
2017-01-22, 07:52 PM
Honestly it seems totally reasonable to go either way with it. You're DM's call is sounds fine.

Doesn't that prestige class require the energy sub feat any ways? That would fix the question anyways.
Yeah, so the wizard could easily just prepare his spells with either descriptor with no real repercussions. If he wants to use Storm Bolt he can simply prepare Fireball as an electric spell, so it's really more a question of whether the Fiery Burst could still be used.

But then spontaneous casters create a bit of a questionable scenario, as they apply the metamagic feat as the spell is being cast. Allowing the sorcerer with Energy Substitution to use reserve feats as though one spell has all possible descriptors may be a bit broken. If we consider metamagic as a qualifying factor of reserve feats, we would have to also have to consider that, if the sorcerer has Heighten Spell, he would be able to cast an electric-substituted Burning Hands as a 5th-level spell. Which, I mean, maybe it could work that way. And I certainly wouldn't complain if it did, but it just seems unreasonably flexible for qualifying for the abilities of the reserve feats.

We eventually agreed that we would allow spells to work in that manner for the elemental savant in particular, just because the effect becomes automatic as a class feature upon entering the class, rather than as an application of metamagic.

SangoProduction
2017-01-22, 08:17 PM
Yeah, so the wizard could easily just prepare his spells with either descriptor with no real repercussions. If he wants to use Storm Bolt he can simply prepare Fireball as an electric spell, so it's really more a question of whether the Fiery Burst could still be used.

But then spontaneous casters create a bit of a questionable scenario, as they apply the metamagic feat as the spell is being cast. Allowing the sorcerer with Energy Substitution to use reserve feats as though one spell has all possible descriptors may be a bit broken. If we consider metamagic as a qualifying factor of reserve feats, we would have to also have to consider that, if the sorcerer has Heighten Spell, he would be able to cast an electric-substituted Burning Hands as a 5th-level spell. Which, I mean, maybe it could work that way. And I certainly wouldn't complain if it did, but it just seems unreasonably flexible for qualifying for the abilities of the reserve feats.

We eventually agreed that we would allow spells to work in that manner for the elemental savant in particular, just because the effect becomes automatic as a class feature upon entering the class, rather than as an application of metamagic.

"broken" is probably not the word you're looking for. "Unintended" almost definitely. Then again, how many who made 3.5 intended Wildshape to actually be useful? Or Save-or-Dies.