3.5 Tier1 Homebrew class comment request

[G'dir]

Let me know what you think:

This is a homebrew tier 1 class for my game world. It is not following any particular rules for class creation strictly speaking. This content may be used by anyone for gaming (though I ask only that you give me credit when posting it elsewhere). This is built for 3.5 ed. Some DM's may consider this Gestalt. It uses some feats from Dragon Magazine. This was originally used to write up NPC's for one of my plotlines, but has been opened to players after that series.

(This post uses information owned by/(c) WoTC-all rights reserved; I claim no ownership or rights reserved by WoTC).

Deep Night Caster

The Deep Night Casters are necromantic specialists from the Lancers of the Arcane (from my own homebrew world). These casters are both Arcane & Divine (though they steal their divine spells as Ur-Priests do). They also gain limited eldritch abilities but have forsaken much of their counterpart's crafting and infusion abilities. Likewise, they have given up their choice of Tantric focus (replaced by Dread Focus) [an ability found in another homebrew class], along with associated free spell slots/progression (lost to gain Dread Focus), and instead gain many of the Dread Necromancer's abilities (though they have given up lichdom granted by that class via this route).

Deep Night Casters use wisdom for divine casting and charisma for arcane.

Spells: DNC's have access to all Sorcerer/Wizard/Beguiler spells available to their level. Further, at 6th level, the Dread Necromancer's spell list is added to yours. You know every spell at each level (as beguiler). You also begin with the Ur-Priest list of Divine spells (which increase each level as you do as Ur-Priest). These casters gain access to 2 domains at start-as cleric (unlike the Ur-Priest).
All spells, (see Song of the Dead) are considered Necromantic spells in addition to any other type. You gain +1 additional spell, per spell slot, per level; +1 Caster Level (one-time bonus),+2 one-time bonus to Knowledge: Spellcraft (necromancy) and are considered specialized in the school. DNC levels stack with Ur-priest and other Arcane classes.

Armor/wpns/shields: As beguiler

Skills: As wizard, beguiler, Ur-Priest.

Required feats at lvl 1: Spell Focus (necromancy), Song of the Dead, Theurgic Specialist.
Alignment: Any, though most are evil.

lvl BAB Fort Reflex Will Special
1 0 2 2 2 Lessons of the Lancers, Sum. Familiar, Bonus Feat:Research,
Tomb Tainted, Radiant resistance, Necromantic Specialty.
2 1 2 2 2 Spell Secret, scribe scroll
3 2 2 2 3 Create Potions, Craft Wonderous item
4 3 2 2 3 Eldritch lore, Craft Homunculus, Divine (only)SR15
5 4 3 3 4 Bonus Metamagic 1, SR10 (all), Craft Magic Arms & Armor,
Trackless Step.
6 5 3 3 4 Dread Focus, Charnal Touch, Rebuke Undead, Siphon Spell
Power, Spell Versatility.
7 6/1 3 3 5 Spell Secret, Craft Wand, Lich Body DR2, Bonus Feat:
Reserves of strength (Damage only option), Corpsecrafter
8 6/1 3 3 5 Sudden Epiphany, Negative Energy Burst 1/d, Divine SR20
9 7/2 4 4 6 Meta Scholar, Craft Rod, Advanced Learning, Mental
Bastion+2.
10 7/2 4 4 6 Improved Familiar, Bonus Meta magic, Fear Aura, Steal
Spell-like Ability
11 8/3 4 4 7 Spell Secret, Meta-magic Spell Completion, Scaberous
Touch 1/d, SR15 (all).
12 8/3 4 4 7 Morph Item, Craft Staff, Imbue Item, Lich Body DR4,
Bonus Feat: Bolster Resistance.
13 9/4 5 5 8 Imbue Familiar with spell ability, Advanced Learning,
Negative energy burst 2/d, Undead Mastery.
14 9/4 5 5 8 Adept of the Apocalypse, Craft Ring, Neg. energy Resist,
Bonus Feat: Deadly Chill
15 10/5 5 5 9 Spell Secret, Bonus Meta-magic, Light Fortification 25%,
SR20
16 10/5 5 5 9 Spell Duration 1, Augment wand, Craft Construct, Lich
body DR6, Scaberous touch 2/d, Bonus Feat: Hardened
Flesh.
17 11/6/1 6 6 10 Dual Familiar (Augmented), Advanced Learning, Enervating
Touch.
18 11/6/1 6 6 10 Augment Rod, Craft Contingent Spell, Neg. Energy Burst 3/d
Bonus Feat: Nimble Bones
19 12/7/2 6 6 11 Spell Secret, Mental Bastion +4
20 12/7/2 6 6 11 Augment Staff, Bonus Meta-magic, Lich Body DR8, Bonus
Feat: Destruction Retribution, SR 25.
Note: Some abilities follow existing ones--these will not be described here.

Lessons of the Lancers: Gain 1 Feat from the list below every other level (NPC's gain 1/lvl):
(Any pre-requisites still apply)
1. Practiced Spellcaster 6. Energy Admixture 11. Maximize Spell 16.Split Ray
2. Innate Spell 7. Born of three thunders 12. Enlarge Spell 17.Persistent spell
3. Extra slot 8. Delay Spell 13.Trans-dimensional spell 18.Communicator
4. Chain Spell 9. Explosive Spell 14.Twin Spell 19.Empower
5. Energy Substitution 10.Extend Spell 15.Repeat Spell 20.Arcane Mastery

Tomb Tainted: Gain the Tomb Tainted Soul Feat, if desired, (not required by good casters though they cannot replace this feat with another). If selected, this feat may also apply to your familiar(s). If you become undead for any reason, this feat may immediately be traded for another feat (though your familiar(s) retain this ability. You gain +1 CL per ECL cost of the undead template acquired.

Necromantic Specialty: You cast Necromantic spells as a specialist wizard, with associated benefits; do not lose access to schools (see Song of the Dead).

Spell Secret: As per Wu Jen class; Complete Arcane, pg. 15.

Eldritch Lore: You gain the Eldritch Blast ability of Warlocks (you do not, however, gain Invocations, with the exception of eldritch spear).

Trackless Step: As Druid, in natural or underground settings.

Dread Focus: You begin gaining many of the Dread Necromancer's (Hero's of Horror [(c)Wotc]) special abilities (not lichdom).

Siphon Spell Ability: As Spellthief

Spell Versatility: As Geomancer

Sudden Epiphany: All your Meta-magic feats are now "Sudden" as well (no additional cost).

Meta-scholar: Meta-magic feats now lowered in slot cost by 5 (cannot reduce below 0).

Radiant Resistance: You gain resistance to Sunlight, light effects, and light SLA's or spells equal to your SR. Each time you succeed on this save, you are not required to save again (or apply SR to the effect) for (1+Chr mod) in rounds later. This effect applies even if you are undead of any kind and supercedes negative effects applied to you by light effects. A failed SR check is handled normally. (DM must adjudicate prolonged natural sunlight exposure normally).

Improved Familiar: In addition to the feat's normal benefits, Deep Night Casters may also summon, as a familiar, a Greater Fihyr (not destroyed by sunlight), or a lesser Vasuthaunt, or Ghostly Visage. Further, your new familiar may gain the Fiendish Template (if evil), within level limitations, if desired. In all cases, it will begin with at least 1/2 the Caster's HD, before applying Familiar benefits.

Meta-magic Spell Completion: Your spells gain free meta-magic "slots" = to 1/4 your level. You may augment your spells with these "virtual" spell slots, at no cost. (used to lower Meta-magic costs).

Morph item: Change one item into another type; abilities remain the same. You must succeed at a UMD of 25-armor/weapons, 30-wand, 35-rod, 40-staff or 45 for other items & follow with a Know: Arcana DC 25 to succeed. This ability would allow, for example, to change a staff into a ring.

Augment "X" (rod, staff, wand, etc):Items you create always use your maximum CL.

Adept of the Apocalypse: Evocation spells are all heightened and maximized without additional slots.

Dual Familiar: Gain a second familiar equal in power to a Cohort (with familiar abilities). As long as one of your two familiars survive, you will not suffer ill affects from loss of one. If at least one survives, you may call another the next round, if desired, without penalties. (Note: deliberate destruction of your familiar(s) will cause (2X the penalties) X the (# of familiars destroyed.) You lose the Familiar ability or the ability to call one again, if deliberate & not under duress.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Firstly, we have a homebrew subforum (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?15-Homebrew-Design)-- you can report your post and ask the mods to move it.

Secondly... this is insane. All wizard and cleric spells available, known and cast spontaneously, is the purest essence of madness. Adding the Beguiler and Dread Necromancer lists doesn't do much of anything; all their spells were pretty much on the Wizard list already. I'd say everything else is gravy, except that Meta-Scholar and Meta-magic Spell Completion exist, which take "overpowered" to a whole new level of insanity. From mid levels on all your spells are Quickened or Persisted and/or Twinned. Adept of the Apocalypse is meaningless; you've already stacked so many levels worth of metamagic that you can just evaporate anything you look at.

As a villain class, this looks too complicated to be useable. As a PC class... this might be the most overpowered thing I've ever seen posted on this, or any other forum. This is too powerful even if compared to Gestalt characters.

[Buufreak]

Upon first glance, your bab calculations are wrong. You are either 2/3 and have 15 at 20, or 1/2 and have 10 at 20. Somehow you ended up with 12.

[TheTeaMustFlow]

You are either 2/3 and have 15 at 20
3/4, surely.

Also, Christ above, what Grod said.

[Zanos]

http://i.imgur.com/Br00TCn.gif?noredirect

[G'dir]

Well, I asked for opinions.
Bab reduced to 10 @ 20th, meta-scholar, meta-magic completion, adept of the apocalypse, SR removed entirely.
Lessons of Lancers reduced to 1 every 4 levels.

As for the spontaneous casting issue, plenty of Tier 1 PrC combos can get this within the 20 level run--I'm not convinced this amounts to much considering.

This is based on a high-magic campaign world where most villains are gestalt, while PC's are not. As Humans are the minority (and generally weaker than most given the PH nerfed version of Humans (Humanoids are the norm, Drow are Lawful Evil with the fall of Llolth, and aberrations run rampant). As a villain class, it seemed to work pretty well. Complex, yes, but it served its purpose. I realize PC's are more cunning when it comes to PrC choices but it fit well in the campaign when used as an NPC class.

I appreciate your comments and opinions, just wish I could get more players to playtest it with as the 5 players I play with (1 has been gaming 30+ yrs) are frequently pushing the limits--even for 3.5.

Just as an aside, the game world has more complexity than I've seen in the regular published worlds and so characters frequently build themselves to match. My main villains in this one are borderline pun-pun, though if the players can stop them first, it will never happen. Allowing this class (now modified) seems appropriate given the power levels.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Well, I asked for opinions.
Bab reduced to 10 @ 20th, meta-scholar, meta-magic completion, adept of the apocalypse, SR removed entirely.
Lessons of Lancers reduced to 1 every 4 levels.

As for the spontaneous casting issue, plenty of Tier 1 PrC combos can get this within the 20 level run--I'm not convinced this amounts to much considering.

This is based on a high-magic campaign world where most villains are gestalt, while PC's are not. As Humans are the minority (and generally weaker than most given the PH nerfed version of Humans (Humanoids are the norm, Drow are Lawful Evil with the fall of Llolth, and aberrations run rampant). As a villain class, it seemed to work pretty well. Complex, yes, but it served its purpose. I realize PC's are more cunning when it comes to PrC choices but it fit well in the campaign when used as an NPC class.

I appreciate your comments and opinions, just wish I could get more players to playtest it with as the 5 players I play with (1 has been gaming 30+ yrs) are frequently pushing the limits--even for 3.5.

Just as an aside, the game world has more complexity than I've seen in the regular published worlds and so characters frequently build themselves to match. My main villains in this one are borderline pun-pun, though if the players can stop them first, it will never happen. Allowing this class (now modified) seems appropriate given the power levels.
So the idea is that it's a heavily-optimized-gestalt-in-a-box?

[Zanos]

As for the spontaneous casting issue, plenty of Tier 1 PrC combos can get this within the 20 level run--I'm not convinced this amounts to much considering.
What combination of PrCs casts off all those lists spontaneously with access to all spells?

[Grod_The_Giant]

What combination of PrCs casts off all those lists spontaneously with access to all spells?
A Rainbow Servant Beguiler or Dread Necro using the Ancestral Relic Runestaff trick? A Spell-to-Power Erudite with access to the right sort of cohort(s)? A Rainbow Servant Wizard with Uncanny Foresight can sort of do it, though only off the spells in their spellbook, and a Sha'ir/Skypledged can retrieve any spell off the Wizard and Cleric lists, but that takes a lot more time than just preparing it, and there's a limit to how many divine spells you can do.

[G'dir]

Grod (of course) hit upon the obvious ones that I was basing this on fairly quickly (along with a few of the feats). There are other ways & PrC's that can augment this combination (of course, you are left with a xp hit), but valid nonetheless. Considering the PrC's from a RAW (not RAI) point of view helps. As for a "Gestalt in a box", perhaps (this campaign could care less about such restrictions). The point was a single class (not meant to allow PrC's) that could do everything the PrC shopping could do, while maintaining a single class.

As for the suggestions to remove items, it wasn't really important to the build or to the flavor. They were just excess gravy, as Grod said. I certainly agree with you Grod when you say that its insane--for any DM not running a RAW, Tier 1 game (and this is), it would be OP and completely unbalancing, even as an NPC. But, when one allows many of the PrC hopping, StP Erudite combo's (I have seen many on this site for example) and such, it evens out, to a point. It depends on the player, the level of Cheese you are willing to tolerate (as DM or Player), and the Plot/Storyline being presented. I have also dealt with Beholder Mage shenanigans and other silliness (thought bottles or candles of invocation anyone?). Fortunately, no pun-pun (Sarruk don't exist).

I read your house rules Grod, and while its not my flavor, I can respect another gamers' vision for their game world. You tend to focus on lower power, Tier 3.5ish. That approach would just result in a TPK in mine due to its unique make-up (I've not even heard of anyone with a world such as mine--even at Gen-con's) and the Character/Villain write-ups. I appreciate your comments.

I just wanted honest, outside comments (which I think I've got) from other gamers. Thank you all for your perspectives.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Even in such an environment, I wouldn't think a class like this is the best idea, as it upsets the sole remaining point of balance-- "if ____ can do it, so can I." At that level of power, it seems to me that having simplicity of build won't help you-- you need vast swathes of knowledge about spells and spell-strategies. This is probably worse than any of the methods I suggested in that regard, because you need to know every spell, ever, on the fly.

But if it works for you, I guess it works for you. I just don't really see how this would be useful for anyone else.

In the interests of polishing things up for you, though: the second biggest issue is focus-- this class has none. It wants to be necromatic/undead (Tomb-Tainted, Necromatic Specialty, Dread Focus). It wants to be craft-y (crafting feats, Augment X, Morph Item). It wants to be wizard-y (Spell Secret, metamagic tricks, familiars...) You have approximately one point three metric butt-tons of class features pulling you in all sorts of directions. I strongly suggest picking a theme ("masters of necromancy") and cutting back drastically. You don't need familiars or crafting powers for that; you don't need so much metamagic, or so many arbitrary casting upgrades. Honestly, I suggest something like

Dread Necromancer chassis
Spellbook casting, with a class list containing all sorcerer/wizard spells and all Cleric necromancy (and possible [Evil]) spells. Dread Necro spells may be cast spontaneously, without needing to be prepared.
Add some special abilities lowering the speed and cost of creating undead and allowing/empowering making Spellstitched undead. Maybe at higher levels, allow even basic undead to keep SLAs/SUs
A limited amount of metamagic cost reduction, based on sacrificing sentient (Int 3+) creatures at the time of casting-- say, one free level per two hit dice, minimum 1/maximum one-fourth your class level.

That would be a pretty intense, evil, necromancy-focused T1-plus-high-power-PrCs class without all this... this madness.

[G'dir]

The theme will be cold/necromancy focus while able to get focus feats to apply to all spells. Ill drop all crafting stuff except eldritch lore. The familiars hv a purpose, both plot & mechanics.
Im trying to avoid alignment affecting things though as i envision many alignments ising the class. This will nerf it a bit but i dont see a loss w that.

As for your last 2 bullets-that would increase pwr-which it doesnt need. Spontaneous casting is important to the concept. It is a very capable caster not beholden to dieties in any way (hence eldritch lore & ur-priest abl) who takes what they want. I imagine these to be quite selfish & arrogant (not all will be evil)--necro can be used in non-evil ways, perhaps destroying undead.

Ill look for more ways to nerf the class but it is being compared to StP optimized erudites (w PrC's) w appropriate feats.

Originally the concept was to be equivalent to one able to class-hop freely & cherry pick PrC's-which makes it ugly considering RAW, tier 1 environment. It isnt intended, nor would it be allowed, to be used in a different environment.
Barring the above, id hv to go back to free class hopping etc. Which im not going to do. Ive had enough of that, so im creating a comparable class that PC's wont be able to prestige (for continuity) purposes.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Originally the concept was to be equivalent to one able to class-hop freely & cherry pick PrC's-which makes it ugly considering RAW, tier 1 environment. It isnt intended, nor would it be allowed, to be used in a different environment.
Barring the above, id hv to go back to free class hopping etc. Which im not going to do. Ive had enough of that, so im creating a comparable class that PC's wont be able to prestige (for continuity) purposes.
Okay, but I'm telling you, the class as it currently stands would make for one of the least-friendly builds I've ever seen. That's what happens when your spell list just says "all of them."

The biggest change in terms of playability would be to write a dedicated spell list, I think, perhaps with options to expand. (Or perhaps not-- Runestaffs are an easy enough thing). It can be a really good list, but some way to cut down on the dross would be much appreciated.

[G'dir]

Ill do that & see what i come up with then. Maybe that will bring more focus & allow me to cut more & sharpen the build.

[Lord Haart]

Okay, but I'm telling you, the class as it currently stands would make for one of the least-friendly builds I've ever seen. That's what happens when your spell list just says "all of them."

I can testify to that. Made a Chameleon once, whose spell list was "spells of level 1-3, all of them" (took a lot of paper to print them out), intending to play him with a focus on crafting and planar binding — and failed to really go anywhere with him. Too much important information to know and pick from, and that's only spell levels 1-3. It's not an experience i would recommend to anyone, though if your players prefer to play the game like that anyway, good for them.