Random questions about AoA

[Ashuan21]

I am building a level 11 character (PHB, UA, VGtM) and somehow wanted to focus on Armor of Agathys, which I find a wonderful spell, both for its taste and for its mechanics.

Now, considering that I can get AoA from at least 3 sources (Warlock, Bard's Magical Secrets and Paladin Oath of Conquest (ignoring Magic Initiate)), how do we get the best out of this wonderful spell??

random thoughts:
- Seeker Warlock11: It is very appealing for my AoA!!! Shielding Aurora gives me resistance to all damage types for 1 round protecting the AoA at the cheap cost of a bonus action (!), Far Wanderer gives me 2 Elemental resistances(!!) and Astral Refuge gives me the possibility to cast AoA together with.... What?? Have you found a way to exploit this ability? It seems wasted for this Warlock, but multiclassing at Warlock 6 would render AoA useless

- LoreBard6/DraconicSorcerer5: Assuming that from the next level Elemental Affinity will empower my AoAthis seems a cool build. Are the enemies prone to a real tavern brawl? Go for AoA and enter in melee, ready to reduce damage with Cutting Words, Absorb Elements (the other Magical Secret), Quickened Blade Ward and (possibly) Goliath's resilience. Are the enemies coward spellcasters/RangedInclined? Go for Twinned Buffs and Bardic Inspirations! After all you're one of the best buffers around... Is this effective? What would be a way to keep the enemies interested in hitting me after finding out how painful is it?
An even crazier variant would add 1 Warlock Seeker level at the expense of 1 Sorcerer level, to gain AoA and Hellish Rebuke (you will regret having hit me... xD) from the Warlock spell list and free Magical Secrets for Absorb Elements and the almighty Inflict Wounds (or something similar), to get the best possible damage out of your Action and keep the enemies interest in killing you!

- LoreBard8/Bearbarian3: This is cool! AoA and rage on your first turn and you have a strong and resistant pool of THP boosted by Cutting Words and (possibly) Goliath resilience! Then go for Inspirations with your Bonus Actions and Grapple things with your Action!! Is this ok? If the enemy is not going to fight in melee this build is going to feel particularly useless but hey... 8 level of Bards anyway

- Oath of Conquest??? Is there a way to make it work? I would really like to... Paladin should be abandoned after level 3 (or probably 4) to get the most out of AoA progression but where to? Warlock? So which was the point of Paladin's levels? Sorcerer? Sorcadin is wonderful, but is there space for AoA? It wouldn't be boosted by any resistance and even lacks Absorb Elements...

- Warlock1/Abjurer10: Solid build (I want to avoid Armor of Shadow cheese) with damage reduction and high spell slots, but is it the best one?

I think a big problem is to keep the enemies focused on you... One way to circumvent this is to be too strong to be overlooked, something the Sorcadin is good at, or a Bard with Inflict Wounds or similar strong spells (but Absorb Elements is competing!!).
So what are your thoughts? What's the best way to optimize AoA? Have you had any direct experience with such builds?

Thank you!!!

[Arial Black]

Barbarian 2 (3 later)/Warlock (fiendish bladepact) X.

Don't use combat spells which require concentration, because you'll be Raging.

With your two slots, one is for AoA and the other is for a pre-asskicking fireball (or similar).

Your THP will last twice as long while still doing full damage. If it runs out in the middle of a battle you use the THP from your fiend patron, which will also last twice as long.

[Talionis]

Don't quicken Blade Ward, you'll burn through spell points each round you do that. Only way to use Blade Ward is Eldritxh Knight or Valor Barf. I'm not sure either is optimal.

Stone Skin is an option you didn't mention it's a fifth level spell. It gets expensive because it has a material cost per use and the spell slot and action economy toprebuff. If you don't use errata a late blooming combination is Elemental Monk who can cast Stone Skin without a material component. While Monk is appealing it comes online very very late.


Warding Bond is a second level Clerc and Paladin Spell. It's optimal to give you resist all The problem is you can't cast it on yourself and the other half the damage hits the Cleric. If you have a life cleric in Party, this should make DM feel like your build is more teamwork and less cheese. This is super optimal though, it's the best source of low level spell, total resistance , good duration and action economy.

Find Steed seems weird but is a virtual must on AoA optimization because it's another creature returning damage. It's another pool of temporary hitpoints all fueled by the same casting of AoA which is important when you are casting AoA out of very high level slots.

Evasion is really important for AoA use because you'll not want to use up temporary hit points from AoA on damage that doesn't trigger AoA attacks. Shield Master feat can help but it uses your reaction action. This could push you a little towards Valor Bard.

Uncanny Dodge uses the same reaction that action as cutting words from lore bard. So you can't stack some mitigation because they use that reaction. If you go Rogue consider Arcane Trickster 6 or 7 for Evasion and Incanny Dodge and two caster levels. Although Swahbuckler 9 adds some tank come hit me now to a build.

Elsritch knight deserves mention because it can cast Blade Ward and attack each round. I don't recommend it because it hurts casting too much.

Getting Heavy Armor Master feat is a small amount of Damage reduction that stacks with everything. The feat is worth considering because AoA is best used against multiple weak opponents and if you also have resistance this can make you last through tons of weak opponents. A single level of Cleric is a good choice to get access to Heavy Armor it can be picked up later since it's a class feature not a starting feature. This is an especially good dip for Warlocks who will like casting low level healing spells in their rechargeable spell slots.

How much Warlock? Warlock caps AoA at 5th level spell slot. Which leads me to say for AoA optimizing you get nothing out of Warlock past level 9. Three levels gets you Mirror Image which is a good to let you tank better. Warlock three is a very powerful dip. But casting Shield spell might be the best thing you can do. Warlock 9-11 is probably only desirable for weird high level campaigns with your other levels in Rogue or Monk.

Barbarian dips. I'd say don't. If you do one level is probably good enough. Rage is a terrible resource. It's not easy to keep going each round, it only lasts 1 minute, and you'll only get 2 or 3 uses a day. It's a lot of investment in a character level and 13 strength to multiclass in and out of it.

Ask your DM but shield spell may allow your opponents to hit you to trigger AoA and miss you for damage. If so this can make Wizard Abjuerer appealing. Shield spell also can also recharge the Abjurers Ward. The Warlock Shadow Armor combo is less cheesie than you think. Ward is never that big and casting The invocation costs you your action. Talk with your DM if you go abjurer Warlock.

High AC versus low AC. I've seen people say they want low AC so they get hit more often. This is almost always not a good plan. If they swing at you and miss, AoA didn't take damage and will last longer. For each round they miss you and your party still attacked them. The only place it makes any sense is if your opponents are very low damage and you are very buffed up for defense. If you do feel you are in this spot my advice is just don't use your shield or a shield spell.

So I'd say Warlock 1 or 3/ Tempest Cleric 1/Abjurer Wizard X is my suggestion. Get Heavy Armor Mastery. Use the Warlick spell slots and Wizard recharging spell slots to cast lots of Shield spell to keep AC high and recharge Ward. Even AoA recharges your Ward.

Both Lore and Valor Bard have their merits. Lore is probably better. Use cutting words liberally to protect AoA. Again think about a one level dip in Cleric and Warlock for heavy armor shields and just to save Magic Secrets. Use a Magic Secret to pick up Find Steed.

Get your Cleric to cast Warding Bond on you.

I'm recommending a lot of feats, Shield Master, Heavy Armor Master, War Caster (to cast with shield and weapon), possibly Crossbow Expert ( if you are Warlock 3 and want to cast Eldritch Blast with Agonizing Blast in melee). Otherwise you'll be attackingvwith the SCAG melee cantrips most likely.

[Arial Black]

When I suggested Bar 2-3/War X, it wasn't to make a caster get the most from AofA!

Even though Barbarian has fewer levels, in actual play you use this PC as any other barbarian: in melee combat!

One pre-asskicking fireball and then rage. Melee while your pre-cast AofA is doing it's thing. Have darts to throw to keep your Rage going.

Despite the disparity in levels, it does not play like a caster with a bit of damage reduction and a useful back-up weapon. In combat it plays like a barbarian with magical advantages. Out of combat your variety of warlock spells can be used like a caster, but in combat you don't need to cast, once you are toe-to-toe with the baddies.

[Vaz]

I like combining it on an Arcane Trickster rogue for Bonus Action Disengages after Booming Blade.

Alternatively, EKNIGHT 7/Abju Wiz 4 for a 6th level spell slot, Heavy Armour Profs with Heavy Armour Mastery, and Blade Ward.

It is mostly a gimmick, but a really fun one. You have a 6th level slot to cast it out of, Resistance, and a -3 to damage. Take 40 damage? Reduce it to 17. Take 9 damage, reduce it to 1.

You will need something to deal with ranged opponents though. Recommend Javelin Throwing Build with Archery Stance if you don't have points spare on Dex/dumped it for Heavy Armour, and dump your Int to focus on Con and Wis to prevent it from being Dominated.

[Specter]

Well, whatever you do, you want full caster levels. AoA is only as good as it keeps up with the creatures you face.

I'd suggest Sorlock because of one thing many people overlook: the spell's duration. Unless you're sure there will be a fight in an hour, the spell's casting is wasted. And there's always the DM screwing with you ("it's been one hour and one minute since you cast it, roll init"). Sorcerer brings Quickened Spell, and lets you cast the armor as soon as you enter combat and still Eldritch Blast/Ray of Frost away. If it's over, requicken it.

[MinotaurWarrior]

- Oath of Conquest??? Is there a way to make it work? I would really like to... Paladin should be abandoned after level 3 (or probably 4) to get the most out of AoA progression but where to? Warlock? So which was the point of Paladin's levels? Sorcerer? Sorcadin is wonderful, but is there space for AoA? It wouldn't be boosted by any resistance and even lacks Absorb Elements...

Conquest / Wild Magic is fantastic with a DM that's onboard with having your character work, and / or who supports creative problem solving.

Why Paladin?

Top reason: find steed doubles the theoretical effectiveness of AoA by twinning it to your steed.

Secondary reasons: Paladin gives you something to do on the front line. Aura of Protection protects you from most of the things AoA doesn't.

Why wild magic?

Top reason: Bend Luck is great, if refreshing is allowed.

Secondary reason: #71-72 on the WM surge table. At WM 14, when you get to roll twice, seeking this out becomes like your capstone.

Why creative problem solving?

Top reason: sacrificially throwing your horse at problems is decently effective.

Secondary reason: sacrificially throwing your horse at problems is amazingly funny.

[Talionis]

I also think AoA maximization could look at a series of dips... A few levels of Sorcerer for meta magic. I don't know that you get much from staying in Sorcerer, Favored Soul might be nice for the extra Attack, but even that isn't going into high levels. The question quickly becomes do you want to know a lot of low level spells and have really high slots to cast out of because Favored Soul 9, Lore Bard 7, Cleric 1, Warlock 3 might be really great, you'll have ninth level slots, meta magic, extra attacks, heavy armor (think about magic items to boost strength to reduce penalty for armor and be able to dump Strength), but you won't know any spells above fifth level. So it's a weird balancing act. Also rolling into this decision remember action economy and that Shield spell and Cunning Words both use your reaction. This still would be as playable and fun as a Paladin.


I agree with Spector, AoA's duration is awkward. It's really bad at not letting you carry over your leftover temporary hit points to the next fight.

I would seriously be okay with home brew that allows AoA duration to be 8 hours. It usually goes away much quicker than that.

[Ashuan21]

Sooo many good inputs I'll find it hard to comment them all!!


Find Steed seems weird but is a virtual must on AoA optimization because it's another creature returning damage. It's another pool of temporary hitpoints all fueled by the same casting of AoA which is important when you are casting AoA out of very high level slots.
(and MinotaurWarrior too)

Find Steed, woah... I had missed it, this gives a meaning to Oath of Conquest! So let's see how could we could have it work:

I'd start with OathOfConquest6/Sorcerer5(probablyWildMagic):
- what we have: Level 4 spell slots for our AoA; Find Steed; huge offensive ability; Quickened AoA <3; Aura of Prot.
- what we miss: Absorb Elements; any kind of damage resistance

This is not bad at all, I'd say it is not AoA focused (not maximized + no reduction of damage) but we can't have everything in life.
- what can we improve? Race: Goliath to mitigate damage (only once), Feats: Mounted Combatant (but we are starving for ASIs...)



Barbarian 2 (3 later)/Warlock (fiendish bladepact) X.

Don't use combat spells which require concentration, because you'll be Raging.

With your two slots, one is for AoA and the other is for a pre-asskicking fireball (or similar).

Your THP will last twice as long while still doing full damage. If it runs out in the middle of a battle you use the THP from your fiend patron, which will also last twice as long.

I like the Barbarian... but you see: 1st round: Fireball; 2nd round: Armor of Agathys + Rage... let's hope I get hit or I'll lost my rage!! It's a bit slow to reach full power, and not that reliable!
A crazy idea is a Scourge Aasimar WarlockSeeker8/BarbarianPathStormHerald3: 1st round Armor of Agathys + Shieding Aurora, 2nd round Aasimar AoE + Rage... Ok now you have 2 AoE damage around you, and had 1 on the first round!



Alternatively, EKNIGHT 7/Abju Wiz 4 for a 6th level spell slot

I'm afraid you would only get level 3 slots... :/ EK would be great but its slot progression is too slow!



I'm recommending a lot of feats, Shield Master, Heavy Armor Master, War Caster (to cast with shield and weapon), possibly Crossbow Expert ( if you are Warlock 3 and want to cast Eldritch Blast with Agonizing Blast in melee). Otherwise you'll be attackingvwith the SCAG melee cantrips most likely.

Actually Booming Blade has a huge potential... it scales with general character level so no problem with multiclassing and after hitting you can move away and force the enemy either to attack you (reaction) and suffer AoA or to ignore you and suffer Booming Blade on its turn if he wishes to move.
BB may give an offensive possibility to those builds I'm afraid of being too weak to attract the attention of the enemies


I also think AoA maximization could look at a series of dips... A few levels of Sorcerer for meta magic. I don't know that you get much from staying in Sorcerer, Favored Soul might be nice for the extra Attack, but even that isn't going into high levels. The question quickly becomes do you want to know a lot of low level spells and have really high slots to cast out of because Favored Soul 9, Lore Bard 7, Cleric 1, Warlock 3 might be really great.
I think that a series of dips is perfect, but the adventure is going to finish at level 15 so let's remain inside this limit!

[Ashuan21]

Well, whatever you do, you want full caster levels. AoA is only as good as it keeps up with the creatures you face.

I'd suggest Sorlock because of one thing many people overlook: the spell's duration. Unless you're sure there will be a fight in an hour, the spell's casting is wasted. And there's always the DM screwing with you ("it's been one hour and one minute since you cast it, roll init"). Sorcerer brings Quickened Spell, and lets you cast the armor as soon as you enter combat and still Eldritch Blast/Ray of Frost away. If it's over, requicken it.

I totally agree, Sorcerer has to find its spot somewhere because it is simply too good.
Unluckily I'm afraid there's no space for Extended Spell since Quicken is too important and the other slot would probably go to Twin (buffing/moredamage) or Subtle (let's cast AoA while the BBEG is giving his speech!!).
Indeed I think a Sorcadin build or Bard6/Sorcerer5 (or Warlock1/Bard6/Sorcerer4) are the best options at the moment

[Vaz]

Crap. Missed that, sorry.

[Arial Black]

I like the Barbarian... but you see: 1st round: Fireball; 2nd round: Armor of Agathys + Rage... let's hope I get hit or I'll lost my rage!! It's a bit slow to reach full power, and not that reliable!

Er...no, that's not what you do!

First, 1 level of barbarian, 5 levels of warlock, 1 level of barbarian, the rest warlock (maybe 1 more level of barb if you want a path). It is one level down on full caster, and 2 levels down after level 6. Such is the price of multiclassing, but 2 levels out of 10 is no biggie compared to other multiclass options.

Second, you absolutely do not wait until combat starts to cast AofA! That would be foolish! What you do is cast AofA outside of combat. If combat happens during that hour, perfect! If combat does not happen in that hour then you've just had a short rest! You regain your slots and immediately use one of them to cast AofA again. You can do this all day! The only thing that messes with it is constant combats without an hour between, which is where your Dark One's Blessing comes in.

So the sequence is: before combat, AofA. On your first turn in combat, cast fireball as your action then rage as a bonus action then move into contact with baddies. If you don't get hit you still have until the end of your second turn to make an attack, and your rage will keep going.

[Ashuan21]

Er...no, that's not what you do!

First, 1 level of barbarian, 5 levels of warlock, 1 level of barbarian, the rest warlock (maybe 1 more level of barb if you want a path). It is one level down on full caster, and 2 levels down after level 6. Such is the price of multiclassing, but 2 levels out of 10 is no biggie compared to other multiclass options.

Second, you absolutely do not wait until combat starts to cast AofA! That would be foolish! What you do is cast AofA outside of combat. If combat happens during that hour, perfect! If combat does not happen in that hour then you've just had a short rest! You regain your slots and immediately use one of them to cast AofA again. You can do this all day! The only thing that messes with it is constant combats without an hour between, which is where your Dark One's Blessing comes in.

So the sequence is: before combat, AofA. On your first turn in combat, cast fireball as your action then rage as a bonus action then move into contact with baddies. If you don't get hit you still have until the end of your second turn to make an attack, and your rage will keep going.
This could work!! But I feel you would need the right DM to have it go as planned... I can already predict that it would be a problem in my adventure ("You are slowing down your mates!!)

A crazy AoA build is OathofConquest3/MoonDruidX... Cast AoA, Wildshape and go benefit all those full caster levels + a ton of effective HPs! At level 13 you could become a terrifying Earth Elemental of Divine Smiting!! (damage resistance comes as an extra gift, free Stoneskin!!)

[Arial Black]

This could work!! But I feel you would need the right DM to have it go as planned... I can already predict that it would be a problem in my adventure ("You are slowing down your mates!!)

How are you slowing down your mates?

[Ashuan21]

How are you slowing down your mates?

Shortresting every 2 hours! Or do you consider walking without fighting a short rest? I'm not sure about the proper definition but we play it as a period of complete inactivity...

[Arial Black]

Shortresting every 2 hours! Or do you consider walking without fighting a short rest? I'm not sure about the proper definition but we play it as a period of complete inactivity...

I see what you mean, but according to RAW 'resting' =/= 'complete inactivity'.

TBH, 'resting' isn't really a 'thing', it is 'not a thing'.

Let me explain: light & dark, hot & cold. We think of these pairs of opposites as if they were two equal and opposite sides of the same coin; two 'things' which are opposed to each other.

But that is not the truth. The truth is that, although light is a real force, dark is not. 'Darkness' is just 'lack of light'.

Heat is a real force. It is caused by the vibrations of the molecules that make up the object. The more vibration, the hotter the object. As the vibration slows, the object cools. When the vibration stops, this is absolute zero. You can't have 'negative vibration' to make an object colder than absolute zero! So, 'heat' is a real thing, but 'cold' is not. 'Cold' is just 'lack of heat'.

So why the physics lesson?

'Resting' isn't a thing. 'Resting' is just 'lack of activity'.

In 5E, there are activities you can do while resting and still gain the benefits of a rest: reading, walking, eating, and so on. In fact, it's better to think of it like this: the natural state of being is that you are in a constant state of rest which allows you to constantly refresh your abilities, but this 'resting' state is suspended if you do certain things; things which are 'stressful'. Like fighting, spellcasting, forced marching, being tortured, things of that nature.

At any point, you can ask your DM, "How long is it since we did anything stressful?" If the answer is less than an hour, too bad. If the answer is at least 1 hour but less than 8 hours, you have just had a short rest and get the benefits! If the answer is at least 8 hours, you have just had a long rest and get the benefits, with the additional proviso that you cannot benefit from more than one long rest per day/24 hours.

So, this barbarian might slow the party down if the rest of the party are on a forced march for more than 1 hour, but if that is the case I hope that the barbarian would realise that it's forced march time and forego spellcasting for its duration.

[Vaz]

There is a variant withon the DMG that a short rest is only 5 mins.