3.5 level 1 fighter vs. 3 orcs

[Talakeal]

Spinning off from another thread:


What are a level 1 fighter's odds against three orcs?

The fighter is a level 1 human, core only, any build you like following standard wealth and point buy.

The orcs are standard orcs straight out of the monster manual.

The fight takes place in a featureless 20' by 20' square room. The fighter is roughly in the center of the room, the orcs are spread around the room and only a single one if within reach of the fighter.

[ZamielVanWeber]

Without going into too much nitty gritty, not good. Mostly because bog standard orcs have a ~7.5% crit rate against that fighter and will drop him into the negatives on an average crit unless his Con is 18 (then the average hit takes him from full to 0) and they have a lot of swings to crit-fish with.

[Zanos]

Can the fighter also be an orc?

But yes, MM Orcs are bit under CR'd. They're quite deadly.

[Jormengand]

I would be tempted by a glaive and combat reflexes, myself, then Dex 14 and STR 22 from your choice of STR-boosting race, as well as weapon focus glaive and so forth, giving you a decent chance to hit them (a +8 means you're hitting on a 5 - a 3 if they charge) and you can't fail to drop them if you do. Take a flaw for cleave, and whack them with your spiked gauntlet when you drop their friend who's charging you. That should give you a decent chance - the main problem is if they and their subpar mental stats realise they should be trying to throw javelins at you instead.

[johnbragg]

Bad. Action economy is pretty decisive here.

Let's stat up your fighter with 15s in everything. Feats: Power Attack, Cleave and Great Cleave. So that gives him
HP 12, ATT +3 greatsword for 2d6+3, or +1 to hit for 2d6 + 6 (Power Attack), AC 16 (scale mail +4, Dex +2).

The orcs have HP 5, ATT +4 falchion 2d4+4, AC 13. So power attack is bad--it's almost an autokill if you hit, so the extra damage doesn't help.

If the orcs hit, they do an average of 9 points (2d4+4), so they need to hit twice. He needs to hit 3 times.

The fighter might win, but the odds favor the side with more attacks.

[inuyasha]

Let's stat up your fighter with 15s in everything. Feats: Power Attack, Cleave and Great Cleave

You can't actually start with Great Cleave, since it has a BaB requirement. I'd probably give him toughness (or maybe dodge) in that spot, to make him a little more able to survive.

[Vizzerdrix]

Umm... Dump everything into diplomacy/intimidate and hope for the best?

[Talakeal]

Huh, Javelins, yeah, that does complicate it.

I had planned on making a sword and board fighter with a high dex, standing in the corner to prevent flanking, and fighting defensively, which means my DPR is about as good as the orcs, meaning that if I can take one down relatively quickly I come out ahead. But I had not thought about what would happen if they decided to bait me out with javelins.

[Lyndworm]

Take a flaw for cleave, and whack them with your spiked gauntlet when you drop their friend who's charging you.
I'd just like to point out that Cleave explicitly states you have to use the same weapon for both attacks, so you can't drop someone with a glaive and follow up with a gauntlet.

[Pleh]

I would be tempted by a glaive and combat reflexes, myself, then Dex 14 and STR 22 from your choice of STR-boosting race, as well as weapon focus glaive and so forth, giving you a decent chance to hit them (a +8 means you're hitting on a 5 - a 3 if they charge) and you can't fail to drop them if you do. Take a flaw for cleave, and whack them with your spiked gauntlet when you drop their friend who's charging you. That should give you a decent chance - the main problem is if they and their subpar mental stats realise they should be trying to throw javelins at you instead.

The op specified human Fighter, not strength boosting races. Good luck getting up to 22 strength.

Perhaps combat expertise might be more helpful in this case. We've seen that power attack doesn't help that much, but Dodge only gives +1 against 1 enemy. Combat Expertise is against all their attacks. Doesn't help against crit fishing, but it can reduce their statistical hit rate. Then you could nab improved trip and use guisarme.

Pick up combat reflexes and rely on high AC and keeping them on the ground?

[Jormengand]

The op specified human Fighter, not strength boosting races. Good luck getting up to 22 strength.

Technically, proto-human would work. The +2 con and +3 NA to AC can't hurt either. If you want to be silly, wild arctic proto-human gets +6/+0/+4/-4/+0/-8



I did forget about the cleave being from one weapon, which I suppose is grounds to splurge for EWP spiked chain. Still, I feel that reach fighting is probably the best way of doing things.

[Amphetryon]

Spinning off from another thread:


What are a level 1 fighter's odds against three orcs?

The fighter is a level 1 human, core only, any build you like following standard wealth and point buy.

The orcs are standard orcs straight out of the monster manual.

The fight takes place in a featureless 20' by 20' square room. The fighter is roughly in the center of the room, the orcs are spread around the room and only a single one if within reach of the fighter.

"Any build you like" is a different set of parameters than those from the progenitor thread, which specified a Sword & Board Fighter (as you eventually mention further in this thread). The Character is in trouble, statistically, regardless, though some builds (Reach Weapon Tripper, for example) have better odds than others.

The plan of fighting defensively is essentially PC suicide in the parameters given, because your Character is reducing his own odds to hit enemies that have an STR advantage, an Action Economy advantage and no stated incentive to reduce their own odds to hit you. Further, MM-standard Orcs means they have weapons with an 18-20 Crit range, and only need to confirm a single Critical Hit to kill a 1st-level Human Fighter.

Even without a Critical Hit, the Orcs STR advantage is of greater benefit, given their numbers advantage, than any DEX advantage you try to give yourself within the parameters listed. Boosting up your DEX on a standard Point Buy will reduce your average damage output even further than simply fighting defensively, while the Orcs can expect to average over 8 damage per hit, before Crits are factored in. They have to hit you twice, roughly, before you hit them 3 or more times each.

[Zanos]

Even without a Critical Hit, the Orcs STR advantage is of greater benefit, given their numbers advantage, than any DEX advantage you try to give yourself within the parameters listed.
You only need to hit a 6 damage minimum to guarantee a kill on each othe orcs in a single attack. Much more difficult with a sword and board build, though.

[OldTrees1]

Huh.

Human Fighter 1:
Str 16, Dex 14, Con 12, Int 10, Wis 09, Cha 08
Feats: Combat Reflexes, Weapon Focus, Toughness
Equipment: Buckler, Chain Shirt, Glaive, Armor Spikes (173gp)
HP: 14
AC: 15
Atk: +4 or +3
Dam: 1d10+4 or 1d6+3
Initiative: +2


Starting Condition:
Starts 10ft away from 1 Orc and more than 10ft away from both remaining Orcs. Given this is a 20ft room and the Fighter is in the center, obviously the room is fictional! However if we ignore the Fighter being in the center the room snaps back to the possible by the Fighter being near the 4th corner but closer to one adjacent corner than the other.

Attacks of opportunity have a 60%(no charge)-70%(charge) chance of hitting and deal 5 damage(10% of the time) 6+ damage(90% of the time). Orcs are unlikely to be aware of the Combat Reflexes feat until the 2nd AoO. Different DMs would rule differently on whether the Orcs would risk the AoOs at all(Int 8, Wis 7).


Plan:
If they win initiative they will attack the closest Orc and take a 5ft step away from the remaining Orcs. Thus they will be secure against flanking while optimizing AoOs.
Else they will use AoOs until their turn arrives.

Odds Estimate:
Beating nearby Orc in initiative is 61.75%(Calculate, 1d20+2-1d20, At Least 0)
Hitting all 3 Orcs is 60%*70%*70%=29.4%
The odds of surviving an Orc partial charge probably cancel the odds of a hit charging Orc getting disabled rather than dying.
So 18.15% is my low estimate for this Fighter surviving with only 1 round.

[Harlekin]

I think the best bet would be

Human Fighter 1:
Str 15, Dex 14, Con 12, Int 13, Wis 10, Cha 8 (Elite Array, could be better with point buy)
Feats: Combat Expertise, Improved trip,Combat Reflexes
Equipment: Buckler, Scale Mail, Guisarme, Spiked gauntlet (79gp)
HP: 11
AC: 17 (16 when attacking, without buckler)
Atk: +2 (+1 BAB, +2 STR, -1 Buckler)
Dam: 2d4+2
Initiative: +2

You get 3 AoO each round targeting the Orcs' touch AC, with a +6 trip modifier vs the orcs' +3 Str, followed by an attack which most likely will kill the orc and even if he survives, he's prone.
If the Orcs decide to throw their javelins, you could fight defensely to gain an AC of 18.

Anyway, our fighter is in a very bad position...

[Eldariel]

Standard PB is 25pb. So we can get 16 Str (10)/14 Dex (6)/12 Con (4)/13 Int (5)/8 Wis/8 Cha. I agree with Harlekin, except remove the Buckler, buy Chain Shirt instead of Scalemail (Fighter starting gold is 150gp) and use the point buy. This gives you 30' movement and the ability to use Tumble (in which you'll invest cross-class ranks).

Best feats we can take are probably Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, Combat Reflexes (an argument could be made for Weapon Focus over Combat Reflexes as every point of Hit is invaluable). We'll indeed use a Guisarme, but no Buckler - the -1 to hit is way, way worse than the +1 to AC. Simply because you get the first strike and thus you must maximize your chances of taking an enemy out each time - the fair exchange of blows is not very fair at all in a 3v1 and you can't afford to take hits. In fact, it may even be better to dump Con and go down to 12 Dex for 18 Str as the first hit is just that big of a deal. The problem with that is, 9 HP is precisely the average damage an Orc deals with their Falchions so it runs a significant risk of not being able to even take one hit (a 12+ Con Fighter can quite likely take one hit though equally likely he'll die to the second one).

Actually. Now that I think about it, it's probably not worth it to go Tripping. Orcs have 13 AC, 10 Touch AC - their strength is quite high making Trip somewhat unreliable, and "+3 to hit" (attacking touch) isn't high enough a bonus compared to a second roll. It's probably more reliable to just focus on killing all the Orcs. Thus, ultimately you'll actually want:
Human Fighter 1
18 Str, 14 Dex, 11 Con, 8 Int, 8 Wis, 8 Cha

Weapon Focus: Guisarme, Combat Reflexes, Improved Initiative

Guisarme, Spiked Gauntlet, Chain Shirt

+6 to hit, 2d4+6 damage (more than enough to one-shot an Orc), 16 AC, free AOO on all approaching Orcs. Orcs have 13 AC, so +6 to hit requires a roll of 7+ (70% chance of hit) for certain kill. You'll get the first melee attack in any case thanks to Combat Reflexes and reach, but the Orcs may pepper you with Javelins - another reason move speed is important. 16 AC is sufficient to avoid about 70% of the javelins (it also takes on average 2 javelins to drop the Fighter, though they are quite high variance) and 55% of the Falchion hits (though charges and flanks weaken the situation).

The first action is probably to attack the Orc in reach. Charge would be optimal but sadly we'll have to settle for the 70% chance of a lethal attack unless we can do shenanigans with the Jump skill to attack from above for +1 (75%) - we do have a small bonus to Jumping and a move action we don't really need after all. The other two can approach, but that would provoke an AoO; I think their chances are about similar either way. Our Fighter doesn't actually fare poorly either way; he can afford to take a hit and be left standing, while he's guaranteed to oneshot the Orcs and has a very decent hit chance against them. He's also guaranteed the alpha strike in melee since reach is king.


The basic principles of martial combat all apply here:
- Acquire first strike
- Ensure attack lethality
- Avoid getting mobbed

When you're outnumbered, your first priority is to even the odds and remove as many enemy actions as possible. Thus, high attack, ensure enemy death. This is the best way to avoid getting mobbed too. In a slightly different scenario you'd get even higher odds by charging the first Orc; while this makes the Javelins more dangerous, it's still unlikely for two of them to hit (+1 vs. 14 AC = 40% hit chance each making it 16% of both hitting) and one of them can never drop you (max 9 damage vs. your 10 HP - thus 10 Con is very important).

Things like Fighting Defensively, Tripping, Sundering or whatever are traps in these circumstances. The more you lower your own chance of killing your opponents each round, the more actions with action advantage you're giving them. The first priority is to kill as many as possible as fast as possible - you can't take many hits no matter how hard you turtle up. Thus, simple "Hit to kill" has the highest chance of success. The opportunity costs for doing anything else are too high.


EDIT: Do note that with 3 enemies, even with +6 (effective +7 due to higher Dex) the chance for our Fighter to win initiative is merely ~57% assuming each unit rolls separately (CBA to calculate, but did 50000 simulations that came out at 57.33%). Of course, Combat Reflexes + Reach makes it less problematic with regards to melee, but the flat-footed Javelins are still a bit of a worry. Winning initiative is quite important here, so I definitely think Improved Initiative is the best feat for the slot.

[Pleh]

Technically, proto-human would work. The +2 con and +3 NA to AC can't hurt either. If you want to be silly, wild arctic proto-human gets +6/+0/+4/-4/+0/-8



I did forget about the cleave being from one weapon, which I suppose is grounds to splurge for EWP spiked chain. Still, I feel that reach fighting is probably the best way of doing things.

I thought we were "core only"? What book is proto human from?

If other books are open, there are probably better feats and weapons somewhere.

[Jormengand]

I thought we were "core only"? What book is proto human from?

If other books are open, there are probably better feats and weapons somewhere.

I blame the fact that my attention was elsewhere and I haven't slept in over 30 hours.

[ExLibrisMortis]

I wanted to suggest a build with Shape Soulmeld and Martial Stance... foiled again by source restrictions.



Human fighter with a tower shield (and maybe a support to keep it upright). Back up to one side of the room, face the shield towards the centre, face the orcs one-by-one with a reach weapon. Throwing javelins is hard, because the shield provides cover. Moving around the shield exposes you to reach weapon hurt.

I'm not 100% on how tower shields/movable walls, cover and reach interact, but it's a fun way of doing things.



O


+O





+





|Y


O


+


O indicates orcs.
Y indicates yourself.
+ indicates squares you threaten.
| indicates your tower shield.

Start in the middle. Win initiative (not easy to do against three orcs, certainly).
5' step to the wall.
Set tower shield/movable wall (move action?). Usually, this requires you to give up your attacks, but we're not trying to carry the shield, just set it upright and leave it there.
Attack top right orc. If setting up the shield takes a full-round action, you still get to attack the orc: throwing a javelin provokes, and moving into melee also provokes.

Alternatively, a single-use item of barricade would be quite neat.

[Psyren]

I punched this scenario into the SRD's Encounter Calculator (http://www.d20srd.org/extras/d20encountercalculator/) and got "Overpowering." Which seems appropriate for a level 1 guy taking on 3 other level 1 guys.

I assume the room isn't dark? That would screw over the human even more.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Forget critical hits; they're doing an average of 9 damage a hit-- if you start with max HP you can survive one of those hits, but good luck with the second. On the other hand, even with a longsword you'll probably do enough to kill an orc in one hit too. Your AC is going to be higher (probably in the 16-18 range), but they still have a pretty good chance to hit you, which gets better if they flank or charge. My money is on the orcs.

[Fri]

Yeah, without even considering anything, even simple action economy already favor the orcs too heavily. Whatever build or plan you can make, it's still way more than half chance for the orcs.

[Lans]

You basically need reach and combat reflexes

[JustIgnoreMe]

The maths might change if you got a surprise round. Get one Flatfooted, chance of a cleave...

[Pleh]

I wanted to suggest a build with Shape Soulmeld and Martial Stance... foiled again by source restrictions.



Human fighter with a tower shield (and maybe a support to keep it upright). Back up to one side of the room, face the shield towards the centre, face the orcs one-by-one with a reach weapon. Throwing javelins is hard, because the shield provides cover. Moving around the shield exposes you to reach weapon hurt.

I'm not 100% on how tower shields/movable walls, cover and reach interact, but it's a fun way of doing things.



O


+O





+





|Y


O


+


O indicates orcs.
Y indicates yourself.
+ indicates squares you threaten.
| indicates your tower shield.

Start in the middle. Win initiative (not easy to do against three orcs, certainly).
5' step to the wall.
Set tower shield/movable wall (move action?). Usually, this requires you to give up your attacks, but we're not trying to carry the shield, just set it upright and leave it there.
Attack top right orc. If setting up the shield takes a full-round action, you still get to attack the orc: throwing a javelin provokes, and moving into melee also provokes.

Alternatively, a single-use item of barricade would be quite neat.

Last I remember, you have to do something special to gain cover from a Tower Shield, like fight defensively or something.

1 orc threatens melee while other 2 throw javelins, you're still screwed.


I punched this scenario into the SRD's Encounter Calculator (http://www.d20srd.org/extras/d20encountercalculator/) and got "Overpowering." Which seems appropriate for a level 1 guy taking on 3 other level 1 guys.

I assume the room isn't dark? That would screw over the human even more.

I did the same thing. What is surprising is that this means 3 orcs are supposed to be overpowering for ANY class at level 1 (solo).

As for darkness, I presume normal illumination, because if we presume Daylight, the orcs are now dazzled.


The maths might change if you got a surprise round. Get one Flatfooted, chance of a cleave...

Exactly how are you getting surprise? 20x20ft room without features? You need shenanigans to surprise these guys.

Maybe invest in a tangle foot bag/bomb.

[Lyndworm]

Set tower shield/movable wall (move action?). Usually, this requires you to give up your attacks, but we're not trying to carry the shield, just set it upright and leave it there.
The action cost for this isn't listed, but the FAQ (which I normally try not to discuss, but it's the only source of clarification to my knowledge) states it to a Standard action. The FAQ also states that you have to select only one side of your space to gain total cover and that you still threaten an area, so I suspect it to be the same source you're using (as none of this is stated in the item's entry in the SRD or PHB, or elaborated on in the Rules Compendium, for example).



On a related note, maybe I've missed something somewhere and you can help me out. I've seen people discuss setting up a tower shield to provide cover and then walking away from it before, but I've never actually seen a rule making it possible. Regardless of how pavise shields were used in real life, the D&D tower shield doesn't seem to have this functionality.

[JustIgnoreMe]

Exactly how are you getting surprise? 20x20ft room without features? You need shenanigans to surprise these guys.

I have the benefit of having read the other thread that spawned the question. The original scenario was a little different, and a surprise round more plausible.

[Talakeal]

"Any build you like" is a different set of parameters than those from the progenitor thread, which specified a Sword & Board Fighter (as you eventually mention further in this thread). The Character is in trouble, statistically, regardless, though some builds (Reach Weapon Tripper, for example) have better odds than others.


My character in the OP had slightly above average stats and wealth and was using the PHB 2. I was able to get my AC to the point where the orcs couldn't hit me except on a nat 20* while I could still hit them about half the time. But then again my build wasn't specifically meant to kill orcs.

But the point of debate was whether a human fighter could stand a reasonable chance of defeating 3 1 HD enemies as I never actually posted any details about my build other than level 1 human fighter with a shield.

(*Chainmail, 14 dex, tower shield, shield specialization and combat expertise feats btw)


I punched this scenario into the SRD's Encounter Calculator (http://www.d20srd.org/extras/d20encountercalculator/) and got "Overpowering." Which seems appropriate for a level 1 guy taking on 3 other level 1 guys.

I assume the room isn't dark? That would screw over the human even more.

Seems about right. But calculating CR for multiple enemies is kind of wonky at low levels.

Orcs are CR 1/2 base, and a CR 1 challenge would, in a perfect world, be a 50/50 proposition for a lone level 1 character.

[JustIgnoreMe]

Orcs are CR 1/2 base, and a CR 1 challenge would, in a perfect world, be a 50/50 proposition for a lone level 1 character.
Meaning a lone level 1 character has a 50% chance of dying... Boring movie.

[Inevitability]

Human with 18 strength and 18 dexterity. ACF is Hit and Run Fighter.

Feats are:

Level: Willing Deformity
Human: Combat Reflexes
Fighter: Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Spinning Sword)
Flaw: Deft Opportunist
Flaw: Willing Deformity (Tall)

Wield a spinning sword (Secrets of Sarlona), a chain shirt, and a light shield. You threaten all squares within 20 feet of you, meaning the orcs are all within your threatened area. After all, the fighter explicitly starts within the middle of the room.

Combat begins. If the fighter wins initiative (likely, with +6 against +0), he can 5 ft. step into whatever corner isn't occupied by an orc (while still threatening the whole room), then attack any of the orcs. Because they're still flatfooted, a hit means they automatically go down. The fighter has a 65% chance to immediately remove a foe from the battle in this way.

On their turn, if the orcs move towards the fighter or throw javelins, they get an AoO to the face.

As making ranged attacks is less damaging but carries the same risk to the orcs, I'll be assuming they all approach the fighter.

If an orc charges, there's a 21% chance of them managing to attack at all, and a 95% chance of them being unconscious by the end of their action, whereas the fighter only has a 8.4% to be hit at all.
If an orc moves, then attacks, there's a 29% chance of them managing to attack at all, and a 85% chance of them being unconscious by the end of their action. The fighter is 8.7% likely to be hit in this scenario, so the orcs will probably opt for this option.

This means that, if all orcs go first, move, then attack, there's a better-than-even chance of them being all brought down before the fighter even has had his turn.

I haven't factored in crit rates, but as the chance of a crit in the move+attack scenario are only 0.0261% per orc, I think it can safely be ignored. A normal hit (which is unlikely on its own) probably won't even bring down the fighter: if all orcs move and attack there's only a 24% chance one of them hits.


...Where did half an hour just go?

[Psyren]

...Where did half an hour just go?

"Not reading the Core-only stipulation" would be one guess :smalltongue:

[ExLibrisMortis]

Ha! Inevitability has fallen before the curse of Source Restrictions! Nothing shall be inevitable now, and we shall have freedom!

*cough*

If we're going off-books, I'd just use Astral Vambraces (and some other incarnum feat) to pick up DR 4/magic. That takes care of most of the damage, and leaves enough feats for Combat Reflexes.


Last I remember, you have to do something special to gain cover from a Tower Shield, like fight defensively or something.

1 orc threatens melee while other 2 throw javelins, you're still screwed.
As Lyndworm noted, it's unclear what exactly you have to do, but the FAQ suggests some rules, and under those rules, my plan works, provided:
1) You win initiative, and
2) You get to set up the shield (so you can wield a reach weapon, which is 2h in core).

If you lose initiative, you're flat-footed (not making AoOs) and sitting at a decent-but-beatable AC, something around 18 (10 +4 shield +4 armour). You'll probably die if you lose to more than one orc.
If you can't use a two-handed weapon, at least one orc will be free to attack you no matter what, getting around your tower shield cover.

An interesting situation is starting like this:


+O
+
+
O


+
Y
+



+
+
+



O





You can't use a 5' step to reach a safe wall, but you can use your move action, because flat-footed orcs do not provoke. You'll have a standard to get tower shield cover, but not a move action to prop it up, if the DM requires it. Personally, I'd allow propping a tower shield as a move (because it's awesome, exactly for things like this), but as a free action... I'm not sure. It's all getting a bit speculative regarding tower shields at this point.

Overall, it may not be the most effective, but probably fairly effective, and it's compatible with any feat selection (Combat Reflexes and Improved Initiative come highly recommended, and maybe Weapon Focus? EWP (spiked chain)?).



A character with Two-weapon Fighting and Rapid Shot can use two main-hand and an off-hand attack to target all three orcs. With an 18 in strength, your minimum damage is 5 for your main hand and 3 for your off-hand, +1 on ranged attacks within 30'. First, you prick an orc threatening you in melee with a shortspear (main hand, -4 penalty) for 1d6+4 damage. Then, you throw the shortspear as a rapid shot bonus ranged attack (-3 penalty), for 1d6+5 damage. Finally, you throw your off-hand dagger, for 1d4 + 3 damage (off-hand -3 penalty).

[OldTrees1]

Wait, what about the Kusarigama(1 handed reach weapon from the DMG)?


Human Fighter 1:
Str 18, Dex 14, Con 11, Int 08, Wis 08, Cha 08 (16+6+3<=25)
Feats: Combat Reflexes, Weapon Focus, EWP
Equipment: Tower Shield, Chain Shirt, Kusarigama, Armor Spikes (190gp)
HP: 10
AC: 20
Atk: +4 or +3
Dam: 1d6+4
Initiative: +2

Starting position in keeping with only getting 1 Orc within my initial range


O1


O2















Me

O3




Math:
Chance to win initiative
61.75% chance to beat any individual Orc (so beating O3 for example)
45.81% chance to beat 2 Orcs (output 1d20+2-[highest 1 of 2d20])
37.56% to beat all 3 Orcs (output 1d20+2-[highest 1 of 3d20])

Chance per attack for nothing/disabled/dying
Charging Orc: 70% to hit, 17% of hits are disabled and 83% are dying ->
30% / 12% / 58%
Otherwise Orc: 60% to hit, 17% of hits are disabled and 83% are dying ->
40% / 10% / 50%

Chance to survive a hit for nothing, 5 or under, 10 or under, out
Javalin: 10% to hit (2% to crit), 6+ on a 4-6 or on a crit (69%), 11+ on a 3-6 crit (1%)
90%, 3%, 7%, ~0%
Charging Falchion: 35% to hit (5% to crit), 11+ on a 7-8 (13%) or on a crit
65%, 0%, 26%, 9%
Falchion: 25% to hit (4% to crit), 11+ on a 7-8 (13%) or on a crit
75%, 0%, 18%, 7%

I could die immediately (O3 goes first and deals enough damage): 28.25%*7%=2%
O3 could still go first but only wound me & then I die to either of the other charging orcs:
28.25%*18%*((1-58%*58%)*35%+42%*42%*(1-65%*65%))=2%
Or I could beat O3 but miss or only disable & repeat case 2
61.75%*50%*18%*((1-58%*58%)*35%+42%*42%*(1-65%*65%))=2%
Or I could hit O3 but both charging orcs kill me
61.75%*50%*((1-58%*58%)*9%+42%*42%*(1-65%*65%))=5%

So I have an 11% chance of dying the first round. However if I survive the 1st round then I have killed 1.5 orcs on average so the 2nd round is much easier to survive although I am probably at low hp.

So perhaps we can estimate this as 1- Sum of 11%^N = 1 - 0.123596 = 83% chance of victory?

[Eldariel]

Isn't the Tower Shield (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/armor.htm#shieldTower)-entry pretty obvious? "However, you can instead use it as total cover, though you must give up your attacks to do so." So if you use the shield for total cover, you can't attack. And of course, all the classical rules dysfunctions like hiding behind the Tower Shield, switching between shield mode and total cover mode without an action, having 360 degrees of total cover simultaneously, etc.

[Inevitability]

Ha! Inevitability has fallen before the curse of Source Restrictions! Nothing shall be inevitable now, and we shall have freedom!

One day I have this username, and people are already making puns about it.

Things are working out better than I expected. :smalltongue:

[Calthropstu]

Human with 18 strength and 18 dexterity. ACF is Hit and Run Fighter.
Snip

...Where did half an hour just go?

Ummm question: since when can you take an attack of opportunity while flat footed?

[OldTrees1]

Ummm question: since when can you take an attack of opportunity while flat footed?

Combat Reflexes has this gem "With this feat, you may also make attacks of opportunity while flat-footed."

[Calthropstu]

Combat Reflexes has this gem "With this feat, you may also make attacks of opportunity while flat-footed."

Well I'll be damned. So it does. Ignore me, carry on.

[Deadline]

One day I have this username, and people are already making puns about it.

Things are working out better than I expected. :smalltongue:

Think that's fun? Just try competing in the various competitions around here with a username like mine!

Competitor: "I missed the deadline"
Me: "Aw, I missed you too!"

Also, *gasp* Are you a Changeling? I see you for you who really are, Dire_Stirge!

[Ruslan]

Level: Willing Deformity
Human: Combat Reflexes
Fighter: Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Spinning Sword)
Flaw: Deft Opportunist
Flaw: Willing Deformity (Tall)


The two words no one ever reads or pays attention to: "Core Only".
I swear to god, if I ever have to submit an unpleasant report at work, I will plaster a "Core Only" watermark across every single page. Pretty much guarantees no one will read it.

[OldTrees1]

The two words no one ever reads or pays attention to: "Core Only".
I swear to god, if I ever have to submit an unpleasant report at work, I will plaster a "Core Only" watermark across every single page. Pretty much guarantees no one will read it.

Too be fair, several of us did notice it, as my Tower Shield & Kusarigama wielding Human can attest.

[Sapreaver]

Okay so human level 1

Fighter bonus feat: rapid shot
Human feat : point blank shot
First level feat: improved unarmed strike
Flaw: deflect arrows
Flaw: snatch arrows.

18 str
18 dex
8 con
8 int
8 wis
8 cha

Weapons:
harpoon in main hand
Net in off hand.
Braid blade in hair
O = = O
=
= M
0
Net the furthest orc from you this prevents him from reaching you with a charge forcing either a walk over with debuffs or hopefully a javelin throw.

Harpoon one of the of the other orcs.
It deals 1d10+4 so it will die if you hit.

5 foot step back in to the corner

N = = O
=
=
D. m

The unimpeeded orc if it charges you have an attack of opportunity. For 1d6+4 killing it on hit

If either of them throw a jav throw the first one back and then bait the remaining orc by staying out of charge lines and trying to get either attacks of opportunities or a snatch arrow kill with the jav.

Requires you to win initiative though or at least come second.

Does everything here look right?
I haven't played in a longtime

[Zaq]

...Where did half an hour just go?

I forget, is this why we love D&D, or why we hate it?

[Inevitability]

Also, *gasp* Are you a Changeling? I see you for you who really are, Dire_Stirge!

Oh no, I've been found out! What gave it away: the well-known thread I've been running for nine months which suddenly switched owners, or the fact that I kept the exact same signature? :smalltongue:


I forget, is this why we love D&D, or why we hate it?

Both.

[Lans]

Level one did you say?
Core only?
Human?


Half Dragon Half Fighter 1 14 Hp
Strength 28
Dexterity 18
Constitution 19
Intelligence 12
Wisdom 12
Charisma 14
Feats improved initiative, combat reflexes, Exotic weapon proficiency kusaigarma
AC 25, 23 flat footed Scale Male, tower shield, +5 Natural armor, 2 dexterity
5/magic DR
Attacks Kursai Gama+10/ d8+9
Breath weapon 6d8 30 foot cone
Only takes an average of 4 points of damage from a hit, and the orcs need a 18 to hit.

[Inevitability]

Level one did you say?
Core only?
Human?


Half Dragon Half Fighter 1 14 Hp
Strength 28
Dexterity 18
Constitution 19
Intelligence 12
Wisdom 12
Charisma 14
Feats improved initiative, combat reflexes, Exotic weapon proficiency kusaigarma
AC 25, 23 flat footed Scale Male, tower shield, +5 Natural armor, 2 dexterity
5/magic DR
Attacks Kursai Gama+10/ d8+9
Breath weapon 6d8 30 foot cone
Only takes an average of 4 points of damage from a hit, and the orcs need a 18 to hit.

If we're assuming 'fighter 1' leaves room for LA, you might as well be a ghost and reduce the chance of failure from 'very small' to 'zero'.

[Lans]

I didnt want my character to die though.

[Harlekin]

Level one did you say?
Core only?
Human?


Half Dragon Half Fighter 1 14 Hp


Half Dragon has a LA +3 listed, so it is not level one...

For all the builds using flaws, i thought "core" meant PHB, DMG and MM1. Unearthed Arcana (and EPH), though part of the srd, are not part of core.




What is surprising is that this means 3 orcs are supposed to be overpowering for ANY class at level 1 (solo).


A bit offtopic, but I'm not sure, thats true...

Human Druid 1
Str 8 Dex 9 Con 16 Int 10 Wis 16 Cha 10 (25 pb)
HP 11
Spellfocus Conjuration, Augment Summoning
Riding Dog Animal Companion

1. Round: Cast Obscurring Mist, Move to a corner where no orc stands, have total concealment, direct your Riding Dog to attack nearest orc.
2. Round: Summon Wolf, turn the action advantage against the orcs

Or maybe
Human Wizard 1
Str 8 Dex 12 Con 16 Int 16 Wis 9 Cha 8 (25 pb)
HP 10
Spellfocus Enchantment, Improved Initiative
Toad familiar

Cast sleep (DC 15) vs the Will save of -2 of the orcs. This is abit of along shot, since you have to win initiative with is tricky in core without nerveskitter and you have only a little above 50% chance that all three orcs fail their saving throw.

But again it shows: IF someone is able to overcome obstacles in dnd, its the tier 1 casters, even at level 1.

[Lans]

Half Dragon has a LA +3 listed, so it is not level one...

You are mistaken, its level 1 with an ECL of 8.

F



Cast sleep (DC 15) vs the Will save of -2 of the orcs. This is abit of along shot, since you have to win initiative with is tricky in core without nerveskitter and you have only a little above 50% chance that all three orcs fail their saving throw.

But again it shows: IF someone is able to overcome obstacles in dnd, its the tier 1 casters, even at level 1.

Won't your plan go like this

Wizard wins initiative

"Ha ha orcs have crappy will saves, I will use sleep to put them under"

Starts casting sleep

Orcs go and attack

Wizard casts sleep

[Calthropstu]

You are mistaken, its level 1 with an ECL of 8.

F




Won't your plan go like this

Wizard wins initiative

"Ha ha orcs have crappy will saves, I will use sleep to put them under"

Starts casting sleep

Orcs go and attack

Wizard casts sleep

Problem is, it's a one shot deal. If any orc is still standing, that wizard is dead, guaranteed.

[Marlowe]

Well, that and the Wizard has to survive three attacks before the spell even goes off.

[Calthropstu]

Well, that and the Wizard has to survive three attacks before the spell even goes off.

LOL yup.1 round casting time forgot about that. Color spray is more viable, but they can position themselves so that only 1 can be hit. In short, wizard boy be screwed 8 ways from sunday.

[Harlekin]

You are mistaken, its level 1 with an ECL of 8.

if you are interpreting it like that, a great wyrm gold dragon fighter 1 is also level 1, but it gets a bit pointless, doesn't it? And it's less about a fighter fighting orcs and more about dragons (and half dragons) being cool.




Won't your plan go like this

Wizard wins initiative

"Ha ha orcs have crappy will saves, I will use sleep to put them under"

Starts casting sleep

Orcs go and attack

Wizard casts sleep

You're right, i missed the casting time of 1 round, that's a bit of a problem. But in a room this small (20x20 ft.) color spray would work.

[Harlekin]

Problem is, it's a one shot deal. If any orc is still standing, that wizard is dead, guaranteed.

The wizard has a toad familiar, so he has 10 HP and can survive one average hit from an orc. But you are right, the wizard is probably dead. My point was just, that the wizard has roughly the same chances as the (better) fighter builds we came up with and the druid would be able to solo this encounter with a respectable chance to win.

But that's not the topic of the thread so i apologize for derailing it.

[Pleh]

Half orc is core, too.

Being half human doesn't really satisfy the starting conditions anyway.


A bit offtopic, but I'm not sure, thats true...

Human Druid 1
Snip

Or maybe
Human Wizard 1
Snip

But again it shows: IF someone is able to overcome obstacles in dnd, its the tier 1 casters, even at level 1.

My point was that the CR is rated as Overpowering according to the level calculations, which means the authors intended this to be a brutal fight for ANY class at that level.

This means Fighter is not stronger than it was written to be (no matter how you build it, surviving an overpowering encounter by fighting through it is tough). If the T1 classes have a relatively easy time defeating an overpowering encounter (barring simple escape), that is an indication they are more powerful than intended by the authors.

It says the game makers expected a Druid to have just much trouble as the Fighter, because CR is irrespective of class, and thus, disparity as well.

TL;DR: numbers tell us Fighter is not weak. Other classes are too strong.

[Lans]

[QUOTE=Harlekin;21633286]if you are interpreting it like that, a great wyrm gold dragon fighter 1 is also level 1, but it gets a bit pointless, doesn't it? And it's less about a fighter fighting orcs and more about dragons (and half dragons) being cool./QUOTE]

Well, it is a level 1 fighter, but it is also a level 42 character over all so I think that goes against the spirit of the rules.

[Inevitability]

I didnt want my character to die though.

How does being a ghost mean the character has to die? At most, they died somewhere, once, in their backstory, before becoming a character. Besides, 'not dying' isn't the goal of the fighter, it's 'defeating three orcs'.


You are mistaken, its level 1 with an ECL of 8.

This is wrong in so many ways I don't even know where to begin.

First, a human half-dragon fighter 1 would be ECL 4, not 8.

Secondly, know what ECL stands for? Effective Character Level. An ECL 4 character is, by definition, level 4. At most, it's fighter level would be 1, but 'fighter level 1' and 'level 1 fighter' are different things.

[Lans]

How does being a ghost mean the character has to die? At most, they died somewhere, once, in their backstory, before becoming a character. Besides, 'not dying' isn't the goal of the fighter, it's 'defeating three orcs'.



This is wrong in so many ways I don't even know where to begin.

First, a human half-dragon fighter 1 would be ECL 4, not 8. I left out it being half celestial. Thats why the it reads half dragon half fighter.


Secondly, know what ECL stands for? Effective Character Level. An ECL 4 character is, by definition, level 4. At most, it's fighter level would be 1, but 'fighter level 1' and 'level 1 fighter' are different things.



I am pretty sure your wrong on this but I don't feel like looking it up till I get some sleeep

[Pleh]

I am pretty sure your wrong on this but I don't feel like looking it up till I get some sleeep

No way. ECL is part of how you measure level when you include multiclassing.

So by the logic that ECL doesn't affect level, therefore we can solve the OP by building Fighter 1/Druid 19 because having ECL 20 doesn't affect this level 1 fighter.

[Psyren]

TL;DR: numbers tell us Fighter is not weak. Other classes are too strong.

This fight would likely be overpowering for a Wizard or Cleric too, unless all the orcs happened to be in color spray range and the wizard got really lucky. Are they not T1 as a result?

Druids at low levels are an outlier compared to other classes.


No way. ECL is part of how you measure level when you include multiclassing.

So by the logic that ECL doesn't affect level, therefore we can solve the OP by building Fighter 1/Druid 19 because having ECL 20 doesn't affect this level 1 fighter.

This I agree with.

[Inevitability]

I left out it being half celestial. Thats why the it reads half dragon half fighter.

This is the first mention of half-celestial in this conversation. You can't expect people to read 'ECL 8 half-dragon human fighter 1' and assume 'oh, it must be a half-celestial too'.

[Pleh]

This fight would likely be overpowering for a Wizard or Cleric too, unless all the orcs happened to be in color spray range and the wizard got really lucky. Are they not T1 as a result?

No, still T1, because tiers aren't level dependent.

Also, the op seems to leave room for you to place the orcs wherever is optimal, so long as 1 starts in range.

So setting them all up for a color spray is fair game.

[Psyren]

No, still T1, because tiers aren't level dependent.

Also, the op seems to leave room for you to place the orcs wherever is optimal, so long as 1 starts in range.

So setting them all up for a color spray is fair game.

What the OP actually said was "within reach." This is a problem because it means your color spray will provoke at least one AoO and could be pretty lethal.

It also doesn't say anything about giving you buff time, so no Mage Armor etc.

[OldTrees1]

What the OP actually said was "within reach." This is a problem because it means your color spray will provoke at least one AoO and could be pretty lethal.

It also doesn't say anything about giving you buff time, so no Mage Armor etc.

I interpreted that line slightly differently: 1 and only 1 Orc in reach. So not only is one Orc within your reach, but the other 2 Orcs are not.



Also is anyone going to respond anymore to the various attempts at making a core Human Fighter 1 best suited to surviving this challenge?

[Pleh]

I interpreted that line slightly differently: 1 and only 1 Orc in reach. So not only is one Orc within your reach, but the other 2 Orcs are not.



Also is anyone going to respond anymore to the various attempts at making a core Human Fighter 1 best suited to surviving this challenge?

I figured we had pretty much covered the core only build options.

Combat reflexes
Power attack -> cleave
Or
Combat reflexes
Combat expertise -> improved trip

Then a few variants and non-core alternatives.

Got any other suggestions?

[OldTrees1]

I figured we had pretty much covered the core only build options.

Combat reflexes
Power attack -> cleave
Or
Combat reflexes
Combat expertise -> improved trip

Then a few variants and non-core alternatives.

Got any other suggestions?

Shield & Reach
(Started as Buckler + Glaive but was corrected to be Tower Shield + Kusarigama)
Due to having 1 less feat it goes
Combat Reflexes
Exotic Weapon Proficiency -> Weapon Focus

Also there is a difference between proposing a tactic and evaluating a tactic. We have lots of the 1st but not much of the 2nd.

[Pleh]

The op asked "what are the odds".

Sounds like evaluating tactics means writing up three fighters built around these feats and calculating the fights.

[Lans]

No way. ECL is part of how you measure level when you include multiclassing.

So by the logic that ECL doesn't affect level, therefore we can solve the OP by building Fighter 1/Druid 19 because having ECL 20 doesn't affect this level 1 fighter.

See, that is a 20th level character due to having 20 HD. If ECL actually raised a characters level then a person with high ECL would start qualifying for epic feats and would be able to take feats with a high character level requirement early.


This is the first mention of half-celestial in this conversation. You can't expect people to read 'ECL 8 half-dragon human fighter 1' and assume 'oh, it must be a half-celestial too'.

I didn't expect you to? I left out 1 word in the description though I would of thought some one would point out that the stats are off by about a half celestial template.

[Deadline]

See, that is a 20th level character due to having 20 HD. If ECL actually raised a characters level then a person with high ECL would start qualifying for epic feats and would be able to take feats with a high character level requirement early.

That ... that isn't how it works. I think you know that and are arguing the minutiae, but in case you don't know, here's a brief summary:

ECL = Effective Character Level. It is the sum of Level Adjustment plus all Hit Dice a character has (from levels and race).

ECL is used for the following:

Determining the character's level for XP gained from fights, and their level for determining what CR is appropriate to challenge them (and their party). A Half Dragon Fighter 1 has the same ECL as a Human Fighter 4.


HD is used for the following:

Determining Max Skill Ranks
Determining when a character gains feats.
Determining when a character enters Epic Levels (possibly, may be DM dependent).
Many spell effects are based on a creatures HD.
BAB, saves, and skill points are all granted by HD.


I'd say it's a pretty safe bet that the OP was equating a Level 1 fighter with ECL 1.

[Inevitability]

See, that is a 20th level character due to having 20 HD. If ECL actually raised a characters level then a person with high ECL would start qualifying for epic feats and would be able to take feats with a high character level requirement early.

You wouldn't be getting them 'early', you'd be getting them at ECL 21, just like anyone else.

[Psyren]

Also is anyone going to respond anymore to the various attempts at making a core Human Fighter 1 best suited to surviving this challenge?

The problem I think is that this forum is very risk-averse. If you can't get something below 95% chance of success generally people don't want to even bother. A 50/50 or even 70/30 shot that the Fighter survives is seen as unacceptable, despite the realistically heavy odds of facing 1 vs. 3. For a superhuman it isn't (which D&D martials are), but they don't get to that kind of proficiency at level 1, generally.

[Lans]

I'd say it's a pretty safe bet that the OP was equating a Level 1 fighter with ECL 1.

Yes, I expected a correction after I posted my character.

[Pleh]

The problem I think is that this forum is very risk-averse. If you can't get something below 95% chance of success generally people don't want to even bother. A 50/50 or even 70/30 shot that the Fighter survives is seen as unacceptable, despite the realistically heavy odds of facing 1 vs. 3. For a superhuman it isn't (which D&D martials are), but they don't get to that kind of proficiency at level 1, generally.

50/50 is pretty much what a CR overwhelming means.

70/30 would definitely be in the Challlenging CR range.

You say risk averse. I say Dark Souls is not for the faint of heart.

[Psyren]

50/50 is pretty much what a CR overwhelming means.

70/30 would definitely be in the Challlenging CR range.

You say risk averse. I say Dark Souls is not for the faint of heart.

I agree completely. But put yourself in an optimization mindset - A 30% spell failure chance for example would be viewed as completely untenable, and that's just for wasting an action. 30% chance of death?

[Pleh]

I agree completely. But put yourself in an optimization mindset - A 30% spell failure chance for example would be viewed as completely untenable, and that's just for wasting an action. 30% chance of death?

I believe arcane spell failure also wastes the slot, right? Not just the action lost, but the resources as well.

[Inevitability]

I believe arcane spell failure also wastes the slot, right? Not just the action lost, but the resources as well.

Losing a portion of your possible future actions is still better than losing the ability to ever take actions again.

[Pleh]

Shield & Reach
(Started as Buckler + Glaive but was corrected to be Tower Shield + Kusarigama)
Due to having 1 less feat it goes
Combat Reflexes
Exotic Weapon Proficiency -> Weapon Focus

Also there is a difference between proposing a tactic and evaluating a tactic. We have lots of the 1st but not much of the 2nd.

I was trying to punch up a spreadsheet to help me compute some statistics for the three main builds we came up with.

I have an idea for a change to this "Reach and Board" build: Weapon Finesse instead of Weapon Focus.

Weapon Focus gives us +1 to hit with the Kusari-gama, but Weapon Finesse can be applied to the Kusari-gama and gives us our Dex Mod to hit.

This would probably involve restatting the attributes to prioritize Dex over Str, which might hurt the damage output slightly, but this was already a fight where you don't need damage as much as you need to hit and not be hit.

Using Weapon Finesse, you can still have your +4 to hit, but now your AC is up 3 points as well at the cost of 3 points of damage output. You're still rolling a d6 which will have an average of 3.5, if I'm not mistaken.

Now combine this with Combat Reflexes so you actually gain 3 more AoO as they move through your Reach Threatened space to use their Falchions and you've decreased damage output for increased hit opportunities that on average should wind up dealing the same damage (if you hit).

EDIT: I forgot Tower Shield had a Max Dex bonus. The Weapon Finesse route would need more retooling than just a feat change and some attributes shifted around.

ANOTHER EDIT: I notice some of the statistics are measured assuming each orc rolls initiative separately. This may be more realistic, but the math is simpler to just roll them all as one. This gives the Fighter a better chance to win the initiative, but I think it may be how most DMs would realistically run the game anyway.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Using Weapon Finesse, you can still have your +4 to hit, but now your AC is up 3 points as well at the cost of 3 points of damage output. You're still rolling a d6 which will have an average of 3.5, if I'm not mistaken.
Tower shields have a max dex of +2. You don't need more than 14 dex to max that out, and you still get your 3 AoOs/round, which is all you need (orcs won't provoke more than once per round, normally).

With a heavy shield, chain shirt, 14 str/18 dex, and a kusari-gama, you can have AC 20 (16 ff), +4 initiative, a +5 to hit, and 1d6+2 damage. That's with Weapon Finesse.
With a tower shield, scale mail, 18 str/14 dex, and a kusari-gama, you can have AC 20 (18 ff), +2 initiative, a +4 to hit, and 1d6+4 damage. That's with Weapon Focus.

The +5 to hit and 1d6+2 damage works out to a 65% chance to hit, and a 4/6 chance to disable in one hit. Overall, 43 2/3% chance per attack. For instant kills, it's 32.5% chance.
The +4 to hit and 1d6+4 damage works out to a 60% chance to hit, and a 100% chance to disable in one hit. Overall, 60% chance per attack. For instant kills, it's 50% chance.

Keep in mind that orcs at 0 hp can still throw a javelin at you before falling unconscious, and you can still miss them with AoOs.


Can this fighter hand-craft his equipment? With a DC 15 check, we can get chainmail for only 55 gp (includes 5 gp for tools). That would be +1 AC for a skill point investment, quite good. Using weaponsmithing, we could even throw 100 gp into a +1 to hit, in the form of a masterwork weapon. I mean, Perform checks can theoretically make you any amount of money, but let's assume a one-time crafting bonanza.

A crafting fighter can get 3*(150-5) = 435 gp of equipment. A mwk kusari-gama costs 310 gp, a tower shield costs 30 gp, scale armour costs 50 gp. That should be possible, if you can hit the DC 14 craft check for the armour/shield, and the DC 18 and DC 20 checks for the weapon. The DC 14 is fine with just 4 ranks, the DC 18 is possible (some weeks, you may not progress, but you don't ever ruin your materials taking 10), the DC 20 is hard - you'll either need 14 intelligence, or masterwork tools (50 gp, too expensive), or get a roll of 12+ several times in a row.

[OldTrees1]

I was trying to punch up a spreadsheet to help me compute some statistics for the three main builds we came up with.

EDIT: I forgot Tower Shield had a Max Dex bonus. The Weapon Finesse route would need more retooling than just a feat change and some attributes shifted around.

ANOTHER EDIT: I notice some of the statistics are measured assuming each orc rolls initiative separately. This may be more realistic, but the math is simpler to just roll them all as one. This gives the Fighter a better chance to win the initiative, but I think it may be how most DMs would realistically run the game anyway.

Thank you in advance.

I retooled the Str Reach & Board below to include crafting(thanks ExLibrisMortis). We overestimated crafting ability

I agree that simplifying the initiative would be fine. It is a 61.75% for a +2 edge.



A crafting fighter can get 3*(150-5) = 435 gp of equipment. A mwk kusari-gama costs 310 gp, a tower shield costs 30 gp, scale armour costs 50 gp. That should be possible, if you can hit the DC 14 craft check for the armour/shield, and the DC 18 and DC 20 checks for the weapon. The DC 14 is fine with just 4 ranks, the DC 18 is possible (some weeks, you may not progress, but you don't ever ruin your materials taking 10), the DC 18 is hard - you'll either need 14 intelligence, or masterwork tools (50 gp, too expensive), or get a roll of 12+ several times in a row.

Nice point!

You said DC 18 twice. Did you mean the DC 20 was hard without 14 Int? Also what Int are you assuming?

25pt buy(what point buy is the OP assuming?)
18 Str, 14 Dex, 10 Con -> (24 points) -> 09 Int, 08 Wis, 08 Cha
18 Str, 12 Dex, 10 Con -> (22 points) -> 10 Int, 09 Wis, 08 Cha


18 Str, 14 Dex, 10 Con -> (24 points) -> 09 Int, 08 Wis, 08 Cha
Tower Shield, Kusarigama(bought), Chainmail, & Tools costs 75gp when crafting some gear(armor & shield).
Craft +3 so I can't craft my Kusarigama(lose out on 6.66gp)
Chainmail DC 15, but point of no progress is 11 for pause & 10 would damage. Take 10 with a +3 will work just fine.
Initative: +2,
AC: 21, HP: 10
Atk: +4, Dam: 1d6+4
Feats: Combat Reflexes, Exotic Weapon Proficiency, Weapon Focus


Edit:
Something else to consider is 150gp is only average 1st level Fighter wealth. The full range is 60-240gp. This might make it worthwhile for someone with 12 Int to buy some masterwork tools to make a masterwork weapon. I say 12 because someone with only 10 Int (+6 craft) would always fail by 4 (no progress) if they take 10. However putting a 12 in Int sounds expensive for a mere +1 damage.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Nice point!

You said DC 18 twice. Did you mean the DC 20 was hard without 14 Int? Also what Int are you assuming?
Yes (fixed), and 10.

I did realize that I messed up. If you take 10 and get 'no progress', you never get any progress, so a +4 bonus is not enough to craft DC 15 items. You need to get work done on a 10 (DC 13-15 is the safe range), or be safe on a rolled 1, which basically isn't going to happen. DC 18 is way out, you can't craft kusarigama, let alone a mwk item. With 10 intelligence and 4 ranks, you can craft a tower shield (save 20 gp) and scale armour (save 16 2/3 gp) or chain shirt (save 66 2/3 gp). With 12 intelligence, chain mail comes into the picture.

You can possibly buy mwk tools, and re-sell the mwk tools for your final purchase. That would give you 100 gp to spend on crafting materials (@ DC 15), and a further 25 to spend in the shop. Since 25 gp basically covers your kusari-gama, you can spend the full 100 gp on crafting materials: a tower shield for 10 gp, and chainmail for 50 gp. Your total AC is 10 + 5 + 4 + 2 = 21, 19 flat-footed. If you drop constitution, you can get another point of flat-footed AC (by increasing int to 10 and crafting banded mail).

A Combat Expertise build could possibly go for 16 str/14 dex (16 pb) and 11 con/14 int (25 pb), which allows you to craft DC 18 things, including kusari-gama and half-plate. Unless you roll the maximum on fighter starting wealth and find someone generous enough to rent out tools for 25 gp, you won't be able to pay for the half-plate materials, as they cost 200 gp.

[Pleh]

Point of order.

According to your diagram of the map placement, OldTrees1, Orc2 doesn't necessarily have to provoke an AoO to charge, right?

Maybe I'm rusty on my rules on reach and charging, but let's walk this out.

* means Threatened space by the Fighter




1
2
3
4


a
O1


O2


b
*
*
*



c
*
*
*
*


d
*
Fighter
*
*O3



Correct me if I'm wrong. I can see two points where I could easily be.

1. I'm assuming the Fighter doesn't threaten space B4 because that would require 15ft movement to move into, so a 10ft reach weapon shouldn't threaten the space.

2. Orc2 is charging in a straight line either way, but to calculate movement, they move diagonal once and vertical once.

If Orc2 moves A4 to B3, then B3 to C3, then he moves through a threatened square.

If Orc2 moves A4 to B4, then B4 to C3, he never moves through a threatened square (unless I'm wrong about reach).

Or am I wrong in allowing the Orc to choose their path to the Fighter?

[OldTrees1]

Yes (fixed), and 10.

I did realize that I messed up. If you take 10 and get 'no progress', you never get any progress, so a +4 bonus is not enough to craft DC 15 items. You need to get work done on a 10 (DC 13-15 is the safe range), or be safe on a rolled 1, which basically isn't going to happen. DC 18 is way out, you can't craft kusarigama, let alone a mwk item. With 10 intelligence and 4 ranks, you can craft a tower shield (save 20 gp) and scale armour (save 16 2/3 gp) or chain shirt (save 66 2/3 gp). With 12 intelligence, chain mail comes into the picture.

You can possibly buy mwk tools, and re-sell the mwk tools for your final purchase. That would give you 100 gp to spend on crafting materials (@ DC 15), and a further 25 to spend in the shop. Since 25 gp basically covers your kusari-gama, you can spend the full 100 gp on crafting materials: a tower shield for 10 gp, and chainmail for 50 gp. Your total AC is 10 + 5 + 4 + 2 = 21, 19 flat-footed. If you drop constitution, you can get another point of flat-footed AC (by increasing int to 10 and crafting banded mail).

A Combat Expertise build could possibly go for 16 str/14 dex (16 pb) and 11 con/14 int (25 pb), which allows you to craft DC 18 things, including kusari-gama and half-plate. Unless you roll the maximum on fighter starting wealth and find someone generous enough to rent out tools for 25 gp, you won't be able to pay for the half-plate materials, as they cost 200 gp.

Ouch you are right. So for builds we have:

Str Build: Power Attack + Cleave + Reach (plans to step within range of 2 before making the first attack).
Str Build: Combat Expertise + Improved Trip + Reach + Crafting
Str Build: Exotic Weapon Proficiency Kusarigama + Tower Shield

Dex builds: Rapid Shot & ranged weapon(I think net was mentioned).

[OldTrees1]

Point of order.

According to your diagram of the map placement, OldTrees1, Orc2 doesn't necessarily have to provoke an AoO to charge, right?

Maybe I'm rusty on my rules on reach and charging, but let's walk this out.

* means Threatened space by the Fighter




1
2
3
4


a
O1


O2


b
*
*
*



c
*
*
*
*


d
*
Fighter
*
*O3



Correct me if I'm wrong. I can see two points where I could easily be.

1. I'm assuming the Fighter doesn't threaten space B4 because that would require 15ft movement to move into, so a 10ft reach weapon shouldn't threaten the space.

2. Orc2 is charging in a straight line either way, but to calculate movement, they move diagonal once and vertical once.

If Orc2 moves A4 to B3, then B3 to C3, then he moves through a threatened square.

If Orc2 moves A4 to B4, then B4 to C3, he never moves through a threatened square (unless I'm wrong about reach).

Or am I wrong in allowing the Orc to choose their path to the Fighter?

That is a good point (This is why I dislike the 10ft reach range). I was trying to address the "You start with 1 Orc in range & in the center of the room" contradiction. It seems like that placement is no longer ideal.

Any advice?
Maybe start at D1(only 1 Orc can attack without an AoO)?
Maybe start at C2(kill the A4 Orc and then 5ft step to D1)?

[ExLibrisMortis]

If you have 10' reach, you do threaten the diagonal squares. B4 is covered.

[OldTrees1]

If you have 10' reach, you do threaten the diagonal squares. B4 is covered.

Really? But it takes 15ft to walk D2 to B4. Where can I find that rule?

[ExLibrisMortis]

Really? But it takes 15ft to walk D2 to B4. Where can I find that rule?
PHB page 137 unambiguously says you do threaten diagonal squares with reach weapons, and that it is an exception to the normal rule of calculating distance. DMG page 29 and PHB page 149 reiterate the rule, but those paragraphs are apparently more focused on natural reach, so they might be construed to have different RAI (although the relevant sentence is never phrased with 'natural', so either of those paragraphs would still be sufficient in a pure RAW reading). PHB page 137 is what we want in this case, because it's so straightforward.

[OldTrees1]

PHB page 137 unambiguously says you do threaten diagonal squares with reach weapons, and that it is an exception to the normal rule of calculating distance. DMG page 29 and PHB page 149 reiterate the rule, but those paragraphs are apparently more focused on natural reach, so they might be construed to have different RAI (although the relevant sentence is never phrased with 'natural', so either of those paragraphs would still be sufficient in a pure RAW reading). PHB page 137 is what we want in this case, because it's so straightforward.

Thank you. That is a nice find.

[Pleh]

Corners it is, then. That does simplify (somewhat) the possible iterations of the fight.

[Pleh]

I'm having trouble finding the RAW.

If the Fighter makes an Orc Disabled as it moves through a threatened square, what happens to the Orc's turn?

Is it forced to stop moving?

Does it finish its movement, but unable to take a standard action since it already used a move action and disabled creatures only get a standard or a move?

Does it still get to finish its attack (seems unlikely)?

The rules for charging say you can still charge (but only up to your normal move speed) if you're only allowed a single standard or move action on your turn, but the rules for Disabled make it sound dicey. Not sure which "exception" would hold more weight here. I'm inclined to think a disabled character could charge (though it would certainly be "strenuous" and give them the 1 point of damage).

My question is, for any of these Orcs advancing towards the fighter getting struck by the Fighter's Reach AoO before they can reach the fighter (such as exiting row B or column 4 on the diagram), what happens to their action to approach the fighter and use their falchions?

[ExLibrisMortis]

I'm having trouble finding the RAW.

If the Fighter makes an Orc Disabled as it moves through a threatened square, what happens to the Orc's turn?

Is it forced to stop moving?

Does it finish its movement, but unable to take a standard action since it already used a move action and disabled creatures only get a standard or a move?

Does it still get to finish its attack (seems unlikely)?
I would rule that the orc gets to finish their movement, doesn't take the point of damage for strenuous activity, and can't take further standard actions. I have no RAW quote at hand to support that, but let the record show, etc., in case it comes down to some RAI we have to cook up in situ.

[OldTrees1]

I believe a disabled Orc can partial charge at the cost of dying.

If a disabled Orc can partial charge, then they would not be likely to just finish their movement. If the just finish their movement they will later get the same 1 attack without the benefit of charge's +2 attack modifier. So I expect a disabled Orc to either cease fighting or to finish their partial charge and start dying.

[Pugwampy]

I found in the miniatures game . The stat cards favour heroes heavily vs monsters .

Assuming the dice gods are fair , I very much would bet on a high strength human fighter with cleave who lands all his hits should win in two rounds .

Lets not forget orcs take penalties in daylight .

[mabriss lethe]

(note, I've only read the first and this page, skipping the middle, so someone may have mentioned it already.)

I'd take this encounter equipped with alchemicals: flasks of acid/alchemists fire/lamp oil, Tanglefoot bag, smoke stick, etc. and take EWP Net or bolo. My first action would be to string them out. Use one option or another to keep at least one of them off of me for the opening round. If they begin grouped together, consider switching to splash weapons for first attack, hoping to knock one down and soften the rest. A smoke stick could delay the start of the encounter long enough to lay some traps out. Pour lamp oil on the ground and get ready to set it alight, drop some caltrops, etc.

You might even be able to just rely on smokesticks and splash weapons for the entire encounter. Pop smoke and lob acid at the orcs, banking on the splash damage to whittle them down if the concealment causes you to miss.

[OldTrees1]

(note, I've only read the first and this page, skipping the middle, so someone may have mentioned it already.)

I'd take this encounter equipped with alchemicals: flasks of acid/alchemists fire/lamp oil, Tanglefoot bag, smoke stick, etc. and take EWP Net or bolo. My first action would be to string them out. Use one option or another to keep at least one of them off of me for the opening round. If they begin grouped together, consider switching to splash weapons for first attack, hoping to knock one down and soften the rest. A smoke stick could delay the start of the encounter long enough to lay some traps out. Pour lamp oil on the ground and get ready to set it alight, drop some caltrops, etc.

You might even be able to just rely on smokesticks and splash weapons for the entire encounter. Pop smoke and lob acid at the orcs, banking on the splash damage to whittle them down if the concealment causes you to miss.

Someone mentioned a net but did not go into detail.
The opening situation is you, in the center of a 20ft x20ft room, are within reach of 1 Orc but not the other 2 (they are spread out in the corners).

Considering it is only a 20ft room, would you detail your precise plan & stats? What will you do on your 1st turn if you win initiative? What would you do if you lose initiative? What are the various reactions the Orcs(who will be within 20ft at most) might do? What about later rounds?

[ExLibrisMortis]

Concealment is a good idea, certainly, since it blocks charging. If you're going the low-end crafting route, you will have enough gp in the end (cheap scale + tower shield leaves about half your wealth for alchemicals). Downside is: you still need to win initiative, lighting a smokestick takes a standard action, and it only lasts one round. I suppose you could rely entirely on AoOs to deal damage, but I think I'd rather use that standard to take an orc out of the game (of which there's a better-than-even chance per attack).

Caltrops can block charging for multiple rounds, and are much cheaper. It may be worth seeding a square or two to stop falchion attacks, but most of the problems with smokesticks still apply here.

[Eldariel]

The reason I didn't account for alchemical items at least is that I didn't find any single one that has a higher action payoff than a single attack from a weapon that has a high likelihood of killing an enemy, particularly in a scenario like this. This scenario has lots of weak opponents so unless you can disable multiples with a single action, your best action is generally just to kill as many as you can and take any extra attacks you might get (hence Combat Reflexes). Debuffing and similar are much better vs. single tough, or in general, more durable opponents you need to duke it out with in an extended encounter. This one might end in a single round in either direction.

[Calthropstu]

Core only eh?

18 str, 18 dex, 12 con, 7, 7, 7.
Improved Initiative, Weapon Focus (Dagger)

150 gold:

50 gold: potion of shield (deflection bonus)
30 gold: Tower Shield
25 gold: Studded Leather
45x daggers.

AC before potion: 21 - orcs need 17 to hit.
Round 1: quaff the potion, back into corner. AC 25: Orcs now need a nat 20 to hit you. If they move in, stab them... 1 hit will drop them, or at the very least knock them out. Thrown daggers and stabbed daggers do same damage and have same to hit... so you are actually as effective if they use javelins.

1st round: assuming you win initiative, they get three attacks on you. at 5% chance to hit, the odds of a hit are about 14%. You can take 1 average hit. Odds of being hit twice: negligible.

Odds of your return attack taking one out: +4 str, + 1 feat, -2 tower shield for a total of +3. 50% chance to hit, the +4 to damage from str means an auto drop.

Once one is dropped the odds of them hitting you drop to 9%.

Once the next is dropped, it drops to 5%.

Chance of success looks to be about 70 - 75% with this method.

edit: nvm, looks like it's a shield bonus, thought it was deflection. Shield of law adds +2, making them need a 19 to hit. I'll look for something better. I think a lvl 1 potion is the way to win this.

Edit 2: Reduce person looks like it does the job of getting to a nat 20 to hit, drops your damage out of the automatic kill range though reducing the effectiveness to about 65%.

[OldTrees1]

Core only eh?

18 str, 18 dex, 12 con, 7, 7, 7.
Improved Initiative, Weapon Focus (Dagger)

I don't think that would be standard point buy as the OP calls for. You are using the pathfinder point buy so you would use the 15points option. Or the 25 points option for 3.5.

Some nice arrays below:
18/14/10/09/08/08 (3.5)
18/16/10/07/07/07 (Pathfinder)


I do look forwards to the gems you might find in limited use items.


Also remember 5 damage is disabled not dropped. They will get 1 more attack before they drop.

[Calthropstu]

I don't think that would be standard point buy as the OP calls for. You are using the pathfinder point buy so you would use the 15points option. Or the 25 points option for 3.5.

Some nice arrays below:
18/14/10/09/08/08 (3.5)
18/16/10/07/07/07 (Pathfinder)


I do look forwards to the gems you might find in limited use items.


Also remember 5 damage is disabled not dropped. They will get 1 more attack before they drop.

Oh, right... humans don't get the +2 stat bonus in 3.5.

Umm...

That hurts. A lot. Now the best I can do is a 19 to hit with shield of faith using scale mail.

Can anyone think of a way to get +1 to AC?

Ok, I got it.

18 dex 16 str, Studded Leather for 21 AC, add weapon specialization to get you back into kill range...

Ok. Umm yeah...

Screw all of this. Standard starting wealth?

I BUY 6x TRAINED WAR DOGS lol.

[OldTrees1]

Oh, right... humans don't get the +2 stat bonus in 3.5.

Umm...

That hurts. A lot. Now the best I can do is a 19 to hit with shield of faith using scale mail.

Can anyone think of a way to get +1 to AC?

Well the Kusarigama Tower Shield build uses Chain Shirt(100gp) + Tower Shield(30gp) + 14 Dex for AC 20.

We tried to use crafting gear to increase it to a Chainmail(150gp) + Tower Shield(30gp) + 14 Dex for AC 21, but it takes lots of DC 15 checks (Int 12 required to brute force with take 10).

[Calthropstu]

Well the Kusarigama Tower Shield build uses Chain Shirt(100gp) + Tower Shield(30gp) + 14 Dex for AC 20.

We tried to use crafting gear to increase it to a Chainmail(150gp) + Tower Shield(30gp) + 14 Dex for AC 21, but it takes lots of DC 15 checks (Int 12 required to brute force with take 10).

Actually, if we go crafted, then yeah... halve the cost of that chain shirt and everything is doable. +4 chain shirt, +4 tower shield, +4 dex, +2 shield of law = 24 which means nat 20 to hit.

You do still have to deal with the charge though... which, with the +2 to hit, makes a hit on that crucial first turn much more likely... so you're eating a 15% chance to hit... with 3 attacks that's a 40% chance of eating at least 1 shot (which you can survive) But you cannot survive 2.

If there's a way to raise it 2 more, I'm not seeing it. If we are able to set them in the room how we want, then I start them in a line with each other with a 5 foot square between me and the closest orc. The closest orc can't charge because he can't go more than 5 feet, and the others can't charge because he's in the way (with me in the corner of course)

Final build:

16,18,10,7,7,7
Feats:Improved Initiative, Weapon Focus Dagger, Weapon Specialization Dagger

Tower Shield (15 gold due to crafting) Chain Shirt(50 gold due to crafting), Potion of Shield of Faith(50 gold) 35x daggers.

If a dog is allowed, 10x daggers and a war dog.

This was a fun little exercise.

[OldTrees1]

Actually, if we go crafted, then yeah... halve the cost of that chain shirt and everything is doable. +4 chain shirt, +4 tower shield, +4 dex, +2 shield of law = 24 which means nat 20 to hit.
Crafting is not as easy as it sounds. A chain shirt / tower shield is a DC 14 check. So you would need 10 Int (take 10 + 4 ranks + 0 Int). That decreases your other stats.

Also, no weapon specialization. We are only 1st level Fighters (not 4th).

[Calthropstu]

Crafting is not as easy as it sounds. A chain shirt / tower shield is a DC 14 check. So you would need 10 Int (take 10 + 4 ranks + 0 Int). That decreases your other stats.

You can't take 20?

Don't answer that, I looked it up.

Well then, we just need some way of getting +2 on the craft check.

So, I lose a dagger or two, and hire someone to assist me in making it. The aid another gives me the +2 I need to take 10.

[OldTrees1]

You can't take 20?

Don't answer that, I looked it up.

Well then, we just need some way of getting +2 on the craft check.

So, I lose a dagger or two, and hire someone to assist me in making it. The aid another gives me the +2 I need to take 10.

What is the cost of hiring an assistant (remember they need to pass a DC 10 without taking 10)?
However their failure only pauses progress rather than ruin progress.
(also isn't it 1/3rd cost for mundane crafting?)

Also weapon specialization is a no go (Fighter 4)

Edit:
If take 10 reaches DC 14 with 1 assistant then:
Chainshirt costs 1000 sp and you make 142 or 196 sp per week so it takes 6 weeks with a perfect assistant. (you save 667 sp - the cost of hiring for those weeks)
A Tower Shield is 300 sp and the same DC14 check so that takes only 2 weeks. (you save 200 sp - the cost of hiring)

An assistant with a failure rate of r/20 will take 1+r/20+(r/20)2+... = 1/(1-r/20)= 20/(20-r) times as long.
Examples:
75% failure = 4/3 x cost of hiring
50% failure = 2 x cost of hiring
25% failure = 4 x cost of hiring

[Calthropstu]

What is the cost of hiring an assistant (remember they need to pass a DC 10 without taking 10)?
However their failure only pauses progress rather than ruin progress.
(also isn't it 1/3rd cost for mundane crafting?)

Also weapon specialization is a no go (Fighter 4)

Edit:
If take 10 reaches DC 14 with 1 assistant then:
Chainshirt costs 1000 sp and you make 142 or 196 sp per week so it takes 6 weeks with a perfect assistant. (you save 667 sp - the cost of hiring for those weeks)
A Tower Shield is 300 sp and the same DC14 check so that takes only 2 weeks. (you save 200 sp - the cost of hiring)

An assistant with a failure rate of r/20 will take 1+r/20+(r/20)2+... = 1/(1-r/20)= 20/(20-r) times as long.
Examples:
75% failure = 4/3 x cost of hiring
50% failure = 2 x cost of hiring
25% failure = 4 x cost of hiring

Well, a craftsman is set to make about 1 gold per week I believe, a skilled craftsman about twice that... so say 12 gold pieces and call it a day?I left some decent leeway with the 35 daggers. The dog is off the table but that was really only there as a joke.

With weapon specialization off the table, that could easily be put toward skill focus crafting, but we now need to find some way to boost the damage by 1. Point Blank shot would do it, but we now need to deal with attacks of opportunity if they melee instead of throwing javelins. Power attack would do it though, but I don't like losing yet another point to hit... we would be working with a mere +2.

Oh well, power attack it is.

[OldTrees1]

It would be good to nail down the cost of hiring an assistant smith. Some of the other builds might benefit from it.

Masterwork weapon
DC 20 = Take 10 + 4 ranks + Skill Focus(Crafting) + Masterwork tools + 1 assistant + 08 Int
Cost 3000sp -> 400sp/week -> 8 weeks.
Tool: 50gp
Raw Materials: 100gp
Labor: X per week * 8 weeks * (1/chance to aid another)

Chainmail
DC 15 = Take 10 + 4 ranks + Masterwork tools or 1 assistant + 08 Int
Cost 1500sp -> 225sp/week -> 7 weeks.
Tool: 50gp
Labor: X per week * 7 weeks * (1/chance to aid another)
Raw Materials: 50gp

[ExLibrisMortis]

I don't see Skill Focus being too useful. At best, you get masterwork armour (which you don't need) or a masterwork weapon, which only provides +1 to hit, something you could more easily get with Weapon Focus. Hiring an assistant might be worth it, but I'd first look at re-selling tools.

@Calthropstu: Mundane crafting reduces costs to 1/3, not 1/2. Yes, I know, it makes no sense it's different from magic item crafting.



I think the most efficient equipment scheme is:

Invest 4 ranks in Craft (armoursmithing). With your 8 intelligence, your check is at +3.
Buy mwk blacksmith's tools for 50 gp. Your check is at +5, and you have 100 gp left.
Craft a tower shield (10 gp) and chainmail (50 gp). You have 40 gp left.
Sell the tools for 25 gp. You have 65 gp left.
Buy a kusari-gama for 15 gp. You have 50 gp left.
Buy a potion, alchemical item, some caltrops, whatever.


The list of potions and oils in the DMG has the following 50 gp options (oils marked with *):
Cure light wounds
Endure elements
Hide from animals
Hide from undead
Jump
Mage armor
Magic fang
Magic stone*
Magic weapon*
Pass without trace
Protection from (alignment)
Remove fear
Sanctuary
Shield of faith +2
Shillelagh*

I think shield of faith is definitely useful, and maybe magic weapon, if we're using low-damage weapons (magic stone for throwing builds). Cure light wounds may be acceptable, if it allows you to survive an additional attack, but I doubt it's enough - it will only compensate for a javelin, not a falchion.

Sanctuary prevents your own attacks, shillelagh and magic fang don't work on anything with reach or range, mage armour is worse than chainmail, and a number of spells don't do anything at all.



Ability-wise, 14 dexterity seems to be an absolute must. 14 dexterity provides crucial initiative, caps out the dex bonus on a tower shield, ensuring maximum AC of 21 (19 flat-footed), and grants 3 AoOs/round, one for each orc, with Combat Reflexes. 15 dexterity is required for Rapid Shot, which can be a good option for throwers, potentially killing two orcs per round. 16+ dexterity encourages dropping the tower shield, which helps your to-hit, for a minor AC reduction.
18 strength allows you to one-shot disable any orc, provided you're hitting them with non-offhand melee/thrown weapons. If you're using magic weapon, magic stone, Point Blank Shot, or any weapon with two damage dice, it becomes a one-shot kill (an important difference).
Constitution needs to be 16 to guarantee you can survive one (non-critical) hit, as the orcs hit for 2d4+4. The alternative is toughness, or taking a chance on a lowish damage roll - the most common roll is 9.
Everything else can be 8, but an intelligence build with Combat Expertise and additional crafting might be doable.


Combat Reflexes is about the only way to negate orcs even if you lose initiative, so it's crucial. I'd suggest the equipment outlined above, a potion of shield of faith, 18/14/11/8/8/8 stats, and Combat Reflexes, Weapon Focus, and Improved Initiative. That gets you a statline of init +6, ac 21, ff 19, hp 10, melee +4, dmg 1d6+4, reach, 3 aoo.