How to play a paladin when fighting lawful evil foes

[Zhentarim]

Can it be done?

[legomaster00156]

Yes, obviously. Hell, the Glorious Reclamation against the LE House Thrune of Cheliax is comprised almost entirely of Paladins of Iomedae. If a government does not put the good of the people first, as far as a Paladin is concerned, it must be opposed.

[Zhentarim]

Yes, obviously. Hell, the Glorious Reclamation against the LE House Thrune of Cheliax is comprised almost entirely of Paladins of Iomedae. If a government does not put the good of the people first, as far as a Paladin is concerned, it must be opposed.

How hard would it be to play that on the player side? Disobeying an evil law is still chaotic.

[legomaster00156]

No, disobeying an evil law is Good. If a law tells you to eat babies for breakfast while kneeled over an altar of Asmodeus, are you Chaotic for breaking the law? In a less extreme example, if a law tells you that any thief should be summarily executed, and you find an orphan stealing food, are you Chaotic for not killing them, or are you Good?

[Zhentarim]

No, disobeying an evil law is Good. If a law tells you to eat babies for breakfast while kneeled over an altar of Asmodeus, are you Chaotic for breaking the law? In a less extreme example, if a law tells you that any thief should be summarily executed, and you find an orphan stealing food, are you Chaotic for not killing them, or are you Good?

Chaotic Good?

[legomaster00156]

No. A Chaotic alignment implies complete disregard for any law. A Paladin, a Lawful Good character, recognizes and respects a law: that of his god, the code he swore to uphold. The Paladin can be beholden to only the Paladin Code and still remain Lawful when fighting other Lawful enemies. He need not consider the law of the land to be legitimate, especially when these laws stand against his.

[Zhentarim]

No. A Chaotic alignment implies complete disregard for any law. A Paladin, a Lawful Good character, recognizes and respects a law: that of his god, the code he swore to uphold. The Paladin can be beholden to only the Paladin Code and still remain Lawful when fighting other Lawful enemies. He need not consider the law of the land to be legitimate, especially when these laws stand against his.

So what I would consider in real life to be a dogmatist, but a humane dogmatist?

[MesiDoomstalker]

Chaos does not mean "disobeying written laws" just as much as Law doesn't mean "obeying written laws". Now, those are one way to play them but they are not the be-all, end-all. A Paladin is Good before they are Lawful, regardless.

[Sayt]

From the CRB: "Law implies honor, trustworthiness, obedience to authority and reliability." Following the laws of nations is one form of obedience to authority, but Paladins are obedient to higher laws: Those of Heaven.

"Follows Rules" is one trait of the larger Lawful alignment. It is not the be-all-end-all of the Lawful alignment.

A character who is consistent rather than spontaneous, acts by a strict code of conduct, prefers to do things the same way rather than adapting or innovating, but is trying to overthrow the local government is, IMHO, Lawful.

Similarly, you can have Chaotic authority figures. To draw from Game of Thrones, Joffrey Baratheon is, for a time, Lord of the Seven Kingdoms, King of the Andals and the First Men, Protector of the Realm. And I think quite thoroughly Chaotic. He doesn't promote chaotic behavior, but he's untrustworthy, fickle and reckless.

On the other hand, you have Eddard Stark, who marches to war against the rightful Aerys II Targaryen, because his loyalty to his family and personal allies.



So yes, Paladin's can fight against LE foes. Furthermore, Paladins don't lose their class features for chaotic acts, only evil ones. They do have to maintain a net Lawful alignment.

[icefractal]

It's impossible, in fact, for Lawful to mean "following all the laws", because laws can easily be contradictory.

For instance, if the law of Orcland says that "All adult Orcs must bear a weapon when outside their home" and the law of Elfland says that "Orcs aren't citizens and aren't allowed to bear arms ever" then you can't follow both of those at once. Follow the law of the land you're in? Welcome to the disputed zone that both Orcland and Elfland claim to own.

[Mechalich]

Paladins struggle with lawful evil foes who successfully hide behind the law in cases where the laws are not themselves obviously evil. For example, unscrupulous merchants who engage in deceptive business practices that are highly exploitive but remain within the veneer of legality as opposed to crossing the line into outright fraud. In such cases paladins are stuck advocating for broad-based social reform and gradually attempting to bring the laws more into line with 'good' ideals.

However, such people barely qualify as 'evil' in most D&D conceptions. To move outside of the nebulosity of the neutral zone - which encompasses aggressive enslaving hegemonizing entities such as Formians and the Borg - you've got to be pretty nasty. The kind of evil that paladins are going to fight has some nasty skeletons in the closet and the paladin needs to find and expose these, which should allow said paladin to rally support from the existing authorities (or from loyalist factions if the evil is the authorities a la King Joffrey). Now in order for this to work it is necessary that the social system apply at least some laws to people at all levels. If the king can get away with murder by virtue of being the king, then a paladin has a problem and has to move to fighting the entire system as wholly corrupt because its very laws are evil - the obvious case being, in D&D, Hell. It's a very lawful place, but its laws are also inherently evil and your average paladin is more than justified in plane-shifting in and wailing on fiends until he's too tired to swing his sword (not that this is advisable as a strategy).

[Particle_Man]

LG and CG types also could use different tactics vs. LE foes. For an example of each, CG is quite happy playing Robin Hood, but LG is going to want to make alliances and gather an army to liberate the people from their LE tyrannical rulers (and then establish LG laws rather than LE ones in the new regime).

[Knight Magenta]

I'll just leave this here: https://dnd-wiki.org/wiki/Tome_of_Fiends_(3.5e_Sourcebook)/Morality_and_Fiends#Law_and_Chaos:_Your_Rules_or_M ine.3F

I've never found a better explanation about why Law and Chaos don't make sense in DnD.

[Zhentarim]

I'll just leave this here: https://dnd-wiki.org/wiki/Tome_of_Fiends_(3.5e_Sourcebook)/Morality_and_Fiends#Law_and_Chaos:_Your_Rules_or_M ine.3F

I've never found a better explanation about why Law and Chaos don't make sense in DnD.

If only the Law/Chaos was replaced with something else

[Psyren]

Paladins are Good first and Lawful second - always remember that and you should have less problems roleplaying one.