d20 Modern Combat

[Efrate]

I am going to be semi-soon joining a d20 modern game, and while the gun rules appear headachey, is there any point to NOT having a gun which out damages, outranges, and is in nearly every way better than any melee option? It also seems to more or less invalidate for combat at least a non-fast hero. Your 18 strength hero with a melee weapon, the trait that increases damage, is hitting for like d6 + 5, 8.5, where any mook with a pistol hits as hard or harder, from farther away, let alone any kind of rifle or autofirring whatever.

That is a level 1 comparison, but seems fairly accurate. Your tough hero is even worse off, he doesn't get bonus damage, and neither strong or tough seem to have much to help outside of being in someones face, skills and such are very niche and not all that useful.

Is this is system limitation, whereas melee is only a OMGWTF moment and rarely comes up, or am I missing something? Its like 3.5 fighter taken a whole step backwards. Keep a knife or a baton I guess but ammo is fairly cheap and I see no reason not to have a lot of gunplay if you try to be good at your chosen role in combat. It just seems to cut 2 of the 6 classes out more or less, or at least change their role into being at best a piece of mobile cover.

Someone please tell me I am missing something.

[Kelb_Panthera]

If guns are readily available then there's not much compelling reason not to play a fast hero with one for at least a couple levels.

The thing of it is that you're looking at one hell of an "if" there. The DM could set the game in Europe or Asia where firearms are heavily restricted or in a collegiate setting with the same hiccup. Maybe FX stuff is in play (firearms, lol) and you want to get into one of the related advanced classes ASAP. Maybe he's using d20 future and mecha are gonna be a thing, making personal arms negligible and making massive HP and str based melee damage much more viable.

Also, realize that as the only full BAB class, strongs actually fire more accurately than other heroes. Minor thing, overall, but a thing none-the-less.

[Efrate]

Setting is near future, lots of alien stuff we may get access to. Full BAB for 10 levels vs. 3/4 and a higher primary stat still seem to invalidate that advantage unless strong has quite high dex. I havent looked into advanced classes yet, just started reading last night, but heavy gunplay seems to be the only relevant combat option.

[TheTeaMustFlow]

Full BAB for 10 levels vs. 3/4 and a higher primary stat still seem to invalidate that advantage unless strong has quite high dex.

I may be missing something, but I don't see anything that says you have to take the class matching your highest attribute - so you could play a Strong Hero and have Dexterity be your highest attribute. Technically, I think you could even be a Strong Hero and dump Strength, but that kinda feels dirty and will definitely get you funny looks.

Still, if gunplay is expected to figure prominently, focusing on firearms as a combat character seems like the best choice. You may not have noticed, but guns are rather prominent on the modern battlefield :smalltongue:. You don't really have to be a Fast Hero to do so - your choices of Advanced and Prestige Classes defines your character more in the long run than the basic class you start in, though the choice you make may affect how quickly you can get to said classes. If you want a quick combat character out of the box, 3 levels of Fast Hero then into Gunslinger works perfectly well. Maybe switching to SpecOps or Sniper later on.

[Efrate]

Gotta take 10 levels of base class(es) before moving on, house rule. And yeah a high dex strength hero can be a thing but it feels wrong. Plus your out of combat utility seems mostly non-existent. I want to contribute and bashing heads and that alone doesn't look like it will cut it, so a fast hero with the 2 ranged weapon feat tax of PBS and precise shot it is for now. Gunslinger looks decent but I hope there will be something better in the future.

Also my stat lines means I am good at one thing, 18 13 13 10 10 9 isn't a great loadout, yaay rolling.

Thanks for the info, I just dislike pigeonholed combat, in a combat focused game. Having everyone do the same thing feels wrong but that's a separate gripe.

Where is sniper located? I only have core right now and not seeing it. That's a path I might pursue.

[Ashtagon]

Gotta take 10 levels of base class(es) before moving on, house rule.

d20m was pretty mucgh designed that your level 4 class would be a prestige advanced class. This house rule pretty much prevents meaningful character development, as most of the useful class features are locked behind the advanced classes. Also, forget about magic and psi.


And yeah a high dex strength hero can be a thing but it feels wrong. Plus your out of combat utility seems mostly non-existent. I want to contribute and bashing heads and that alone doesn't look like it will cut it, so a fast hero with the 2 ranged weapon feat tax of PBS and precise shot it is for now. Gunslinger looks decent but I hope there will be something better in the future.

Also my stat lines means I am good at one thing, 18 13 13 10 10 9 isn't a great loadout, yaay rolling.

Thanks for the info, I just dislike pigeonholed combat, in a combat focused game. Having everyone do the same thing feels wrong but that's a separate gripe.

Where is sniper located? I only have core right now and not seeing it. That's a path I might pursue.

With basic classes only, go strong hero for the BAB. With advanced classes available, the shooty one (gunslinger I think its called) is what to beeline for, due to the bonus feats and class features. That's all assuming you want to get shooty.

That said, d20m combat choices are highly campaign-setting-dependent.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Gotta take 10 levels of base class(es) before moving on, house rule. And yeah a high dex strength hero can be a thing but it feels wrong. Plus your out of combat utility seems mostly non-existent. I want to contribute and bashing heads and that alone doesn't look like it will cut it, so a fast hero with the 2 ranged weapon feat tax of PBS and precise shot it is for now. Gunslinger looks decent but I hope there will be something better in the future.

Also my stat lines means I am good at one thing, 18 13 13 10 10 9 isn't a great loadout, yaay rolling.

Thanks for the info, I just dislike pigeonholed combat, in a combat focused game. Having everyone do the same thing feels wrong but that's a separate gripe.

Where is sniper located? I only have core right now and not seeing it. That's a path I might pursue.

Well if the DM is houseruling normal conventions away, that's an issue we should've been given if you wanted sound advice. :smallsigh:

I'd probably take a two level dip through fast then switch to strong if you want to focus on combat. Being locked into gun-play as the primary mode of combat in a near future setting is going to make everyone's combat actions feel a bit samey (especially without advanced classes :smallsigh:) until and unless you capture some alien tech. Maybe even then.

Obviously, if you want special actions for outside of combat, you'll want to dip one or more of the mental stat heroes. Look at the talents and decide which strikes your fancy.

[Fouredged Sword]

I like a dip into fast hero for the higher class defense bonus and the evasion talent for avoiding explosions. I also had a fun character named twitchy. He had +20-30 to spot to avoid ambushes.

You can trade small bonuses to hit or defense back and forth between fast and strong, but outside PRC's you are looking at very small shifts between the two. Most combat ability is driven by PRC's and feats. Double tap and burst fire are feat driven and you ether can or cannot do them.

And melee has a place in combat. A good melee weapon will do more damage than a gun once you factor in strength, and it will do that damage consistently. Remember, high level D20 modern combat tends to revolve around forcing massive damage saves rather than chipping away at HP.

[tomandtish]

As with all games, a little pre-game chat with your GM before character generation is the way to go. It's important to understand they may have plot points they don't want to reveal, but there are some general things you can clarify. Given that you know it is "near future" a good question might be...

"If I play a melee character, am I going to be the norm, unusual, or 'God, haven't seen one of those in 50 years'?"

And the type of melee might matter as well. Do people still use swords because the energy weapons of the day are slow (Simon Green's Deathstalker series)? Maybe personal shielding means the slow knife beats the fast projectile (Dune). Maybe battles are fought high tech but matters of honor are always settled hand to hand with no weapons at all.

But your GM should be able to let you know whether or not you are playing something common or rare. And the rarer it is, the more significance it probably had on your backstory because you would have had to look harder/work harder/pay more to obtain that training.

[CharonsHelper]

In d20 modern Fast Hero is kinda OP. It gets solid skills, and while it has lower BAB than the strong hero, it has a much better base defense (+3 at 1 is stupid good - our group house-ruled it down to +2 to make them not as crazy good - though still probably the best class). Plus, in d20 modern Reflex saves are generally the most important (the opposite of 3.x).

[Efrate]

Alien tech will be a thing and stuff built around that eventually, but we are a group of terrorists freedom fighters who are working to overthrow the alien regime, because who wants to live in a disease free land, with no poverty or hunger, and all of that.

Well there are the 1984 esque reprogramming that occasionally happens but on a whole other than a bit of free will being snipped out of insurgents, its world peace, just if you go up VERY high you might actually see on of the victorious aliens who sunk japan and kind of wrecked the US.

I'm stuggling with background and feats right now. Something snipery sounds cool but sniper rifles are ridiculously expensive, and with my rolls I can max out at like 14/15 wealth if I take windfall twice from the backgrounds I am looking at.

Thanks for the feedback though, I have an idea of what it is now and I think I have a direction I kind of see myself going in, after I nail the crunch the fluff will come naturally.

[TheTeaMustFlow]

Alien tech will be a thing and stuff built around that eventually, but we are a group of terrorists freedom fighters who are working to overthrow the alien regime, because who wants to live in a disease free land, with no poverty or hunger, and all of that.

Well there are the 1984 esque reprogramming that occasionally happens but on a whole other than a bit of free will being snipped out of insurgents, its world peace, just if you go up VERY high you might actually see on of the victorious aliens who sunk japan and kind of wrecked the US.

I'm stuggling with background and feats right now. Something snipery sounds cool but sniper rifles are ridiculously expensive, and with my rolls I can max out at like 14/15 wealth if I take windfall twice from the backgrounds I am looking at.

Thanks for the feedback though, I have an idea of what it is now and I think I have a direction I kind of see myself going in, after I nail the crunch the fluff will come naturally.

I really wouldn't recommend taking the Windfall feat. You're basically blowing a feat slot on having a bit more (not even a lot, really) on an expendable resource.

[Fouredged Sword]

Wealth isn't that useful. Having a wealth over 15 is kinda pointless. Every time you use it you lose it, and you don't get it back. Maybe if the game made wealth revert to a baseline that went up as you level it would be useful, but as is the only big thing is to have 15.

Come to think of it, that would be a good system. Maybe base it on your profession modifier, so 5 base, +1 per level for profession 1-4, +2 for 5-9, +3 for 10-14, ect. A high wisdom would play into this as what amounts to free ranks. Same with skill focus. Windfall would be a +3 bonus to base.

That would set your baseline wealth, like base HP. You could then take wealth damage as you spend money just like you would lose wealth normally. The difference would be that you recover profession rank/5 points of wealth damage each time you level so you will revert to your baseline wealth as you level. This would encourage players to spend money without removing the penalty for doing so. Unwisely spending money wouldn't cripple your character forever though, as you would revert back to the baseline. Spending a whole lot could still be felt for multiple levels without permanently reducing your character.

[CharonsHelper]

Come to think of it, that would be a good system. Maybe base it on your profession modifier, so 5 base, +1 per level for profession 1-4, +2 for 5-9, +3 for 10-14, ect. A high wisdom would play into this as what amounts to free ranks. Same with skill focus. Windfall would be a +3 bonus to base.

That sort of is how d20 Modern works.




A character’s Wealth bonus recovers as the character advances.

Every time a character gains a new level, make a Profession check. (If the character has no ranks in the skill, this check is a Wisdom check.) The DC is equal to the character’s current Wealth bonus. If the character succeeds, his or her current Wealth bonus increases by +1. For every 5 points by which the character exceeds the DC, he or she gains an additional +1 to his or her Wealth bonus.