Life Cleric v. Giants - Should I use Bane?

[Zene]

Hi all, looking for some advice here. I play a Life Cleric in an adventuring party (APL 7 to 8-ish) that recently attacked a giant stronghold. We made a dent in their forces, but were pretty quickly outmatched and ended up having to retreat. We just barely made it out alive.

We are going to give it another go next session. A few things will improve our odds: The party will be rested (we were at about half-strength the first time), and we'll be smarter about some of our tactics.

But I'm a little unsure of the best use of my concentration. The party is about 2/3 melee (including, usually, me) and about 1/3 casters. Against tough enemies, I'd usually go with Bless, on the reasoning that the more the party's hits connect, the faster the enemies go down.

These giants, though, hit like a truck, and we'll likely be fighting at least 3 (if not more) at a time. Two hits from them will take down almost anyone in the party. For our part, the party didn't seem to have much problem getting our own hits to connect, and I don't think we needed to make many saves. So I'm considering switching from Bless to Bane. I know most of the time it's strictly worse than Bless (or other uses of concentration), but it seems like this might be one of those times it's worth it. If it can turn even one or two hits against us into misses, that's a huge amount of damage prevented.

What do y'all think? Am I thinking about this the right way? I don't think I've ever seen Bane used, so I'm wondering if I'm missing something.

[NecroDancer]

That seems like a good choice (even better if the Giants are hill Giants).

[BiPolar]

It kind of depends on your party ACs. Giants are easy to hit, so Bless does seem overkill, but they have a decent modifier for their attacks. Bane will drop a d4 from those attacks, but if that's not enough of a drop to make a miss, there are better offensive options.

I'd heavily consider Spirit Guardians as your concentration along with spiritual weapon.'

If you think the party will need the heals, then definitely have Beacon of Hope up and just spam heal spells. But then you're acting purely as a support.

[Spectre9000]

Hi all, looking for some advice here. I play a Life Cleric in an adventuring party (APL 7 to 8-ish) that recently attacked a giant stronghold. We made a dent in their forces, but were pretty quickly outmatched and ended up having to retreat. We just barely made it out alive.

We are going to give it another go next session. A few things will improve our odds: The party will be rested (we were at about half-strength the first time), and we'll be smarter about some of our tactics.

But I'm a little unsure of the best use of my concentration. The party is about 2/3 melee (including, usually, me) and about 1/3 casters. Against tough enemies, I'd usually go with Bless, on the reasoning that the more the party's hits connect, the faster the enemies go down.

These giants, though, hit like a truck, and we'll likely be fighting at least 3 (if not more) at a time. Two hits from them will take down almost anyone in the party. For our part, the party didn't seem to have much problem getting our own hits to connect, and I don't think we needed to make many saves. So I'm considering switching from Bless to Bane. I know most of the time it's strictly worse than Bless (or other uses of concentration), but it seems like this might be one of those times it's worth it. If it can turn even one or two hits against us into misses, that's a huge amount of damage prevented.

What do y'all think? Am I thinking about this the right way? I don't think I've ever seen Bane used, so I'm wondering if I'm missing something.


So, first of all, I'd like to suggest some preparatory tasks you can take you might not be quite aware of. First, I'd suggest using Glyph of Warding and using it to cast shield of faith on three of your members so that they get +2 AC. Set it up to trigger when the fight starts (it only lasts 10 minutes). Due to the nature of Glyph of Warding, you don't need to maintain concentration on those spells. Incidentally, given multiple days, you could continue setting up Glyphs of Warding to cast buffing/healing spells, and to explode when a Giant comes near. A few glyphs could probably kill a giant. Also, you can set up a bunch of Glyphs of Warding with Prayers of Healing and then you can concentrate (or activate another glyph) on Beacon of Hope so that you're getting max AoE healing to your allies. Really, if the ball's in your court, and you have time, there are no limits to what you can do here.

Furthermore, you could cast Aid at 4th level to give three allies +15 max hitpoints. This will help substantially with taking hits (as you're saying two hits are bringing you down).

Also, keep in mind that Warding Bond synergizes well with Blessed Healer.

As to the exact question, what to use your concentration on, I would suggest Beacon of Hope. You don't really do well in preventing damage. You do really well in healing that damage. Battlefield control isn't going to be your job as a cleric. That's generally left to others.

[BiPolar]

So, first of all, I'd like to suggest some preparatory tasks you can take you might not be quite aware of. First, I'd suggest using Glyph of Warding and using it to cast shield of faith on three of your members so that they get +2 AC. Set it up to trigger when the fight starts (it only lasts 10 minutes). Due to the nature of Glyph of Warding, you don't need to maintain concentration on those spells. Incidentally, given multiple days, you could continue setting up Glyphs of Warding to cast buffing/healing spells, and to explode when a Giant comes near. A few glyphs could probably kill a giant. Also, you can set up a bunch of Glyphs of Warding with Prayers of Healing and then you can concentrate (or activate another glyph) on Beacon of Hope so that you're getting max AoE healing to your allies. Really, if the ball's in your court, and you have time, there are no limits to what you can do here.
Well, you'd have to camp somewhere with a 9 minute distance from where you think the giants may be for the encounter. THe glyphs can't move more than 10' from where they were cast. The DM could and should limit the practicality of that.

[xroads]

Hmmm... Good question.

I'm not a fan of spells that allow the enemy to make saving throws. So I'd lean away from Bane.

If Bless isn't working, you might try casting a few select Shield of Faith spells. However that's an expensive tactic (would be nice if that spell scaled somehow).

It might be better to just be prepared to heal frequently. I know prevention is better then repairing. But the cleric's abjuration/enhancement spells aren't as good as they should be. And the Life Cleric is the absolute monarch of healing.

[Spectre9000]

Well, you'd have to camp somewhere with a 9 minute distance from where you think the giants may be for the encounter. THe glyphs can't move more than 10' from where they were cast. The DM could and should limit the practicality of that.

Not really. You can be just a little ways from their keep, and lure them to the designated spot (Giants aren't very intelligent, barring cloud and storm giants, and are arrogant enough to charge headfirst into the enemy).

Additionally, (s)he could simply have the bard/sorcerer/wizard/whatever cast Greater Invisibility on him, and he'd be free to get close and prepare the glyphs unnoticed.

[MrStabby]

Bane isn't a bad shout at all. It gets even better if more of your party are forcing saves.

What other classes are there?

[BiPolar]

Not really. You can be just a little ways from their keep, and lure them to the designated spot (Giants aren't very intelligent, barring cloud and storm giants, and are arrogant enough to charge headfirst into the enemy).

Additionally, he could simply have the bard/sorcerer/wizard/whatever cast Greater Invisibility on him, and he'd be free to get close and prepare the glyphs unnoticed.

I'm not saying it can't work, i'm saying as a DM, i'd be very wary about how often I'd allow that tactic to work. It's basically a workaround for additional spell slots used like that. But if they have a working a plan that makes sense, I'd allow it and give it a chance to work (and a chance to fail.)

[Spectre9000]

I'm not saying it can't work, i'm saying as a DM, i'd be very wary about how often I'd allow that tactic to work. It's basically a workaround for additional spell slots used like that. But if they have a working a plan that makes sense, I'd allow it and give it a chance to work (and a chance to fail.)

Well, how well that tactic works is dependent on their plan and just how things play out. As the saying goes, "No Battle Plan Survives Contact With the Enemy". Given half a chance anything goes to hell. For instance, all those spells, if she doesn't give a well defined trigger could go off on a random deer crossing it, or one giant could get ahead of the rest, wasting a lot of the firepower of the glyphs on just it, while the rest of the fort remains unscathed. I think Glyph of Warding is very balanced simply because it requires their plan to work out how they want it. If they make a really great plan, then as that always goes, everything will be pretty easy. Otherwise, things just turn to chaos.


All that being said, I'd still recommend the tactic I outlined above using Glyph of Warding. Coming up with creative and intelligent solutions is also part of D&D (and I would argue moreso than running head first into the enemy and hitting them harder). Fighting an enemy on their home turf is a tactic for the stupid, desperate, and/or impatient, that's almost never a good idea.

[Zene]

So, first of all, I'd like to suggest some preparatory tasks you can take you might not be quite aware of. First, I'd suggest using Glyph of Warding and using it to cast shield of faith on three of your members so that they get +2 AC. Set it up to trigger when the fight starts (it only lasts 10 minutes). Due to the nature of Glyph of Warding, you don't need to maintain concentration on those spells. Incidentally, given multiple days, you could continue setting up Glyphs of Warding to cast buffing/healing spells, and to explode when a Giant comes near. A few glyphs could probably kill a giant. Also, you can set up a bunch of Glyphs of Warding with Prayers of Healing and then you can concentrate (or activate another glyph) on Beacon of Hope so that you're getting max AoE healing to your allies. Really, if the ball's in your court, and you have time, there are no limits to what you can do here.

Furthermore, you could cast Aid at 4th level to give three allies +15 max hitpoints. This will help substantially with taking hits (as you're saying two hits are bringing you down).

Also, keep in mind that Warding Bond synergizes well with Blessed Healer.

As to the exact question, what to use your concentration on, I would suggest Beacon of Hope. You don't really do well in preventing damage. You do really well in healing that damage. Battlefield control isn't going to be your job as a cleric. That's generally left to others.

I like the way you think!

I'm not sure I'd be able to follow your advice in this instance, though:
1) They were doing like 40+ dmg/hit. Aid would be using one of my highest-level spell slots for not even one hit's equivalent on each party member.
2) Similarly, they were doing damage far faster than I could repair it. Maybe with Beacon of Hope, multiple Mass Healing Words and CD: Preserve Life I could keep up for a few rounds, but I'd run out of gas real quick.
3) I love the glyph of warding ideas. But that whole "cast it on a surface and then move it" thing requires pretty liberal interpretation of the word "surface", since if you cast it on an "object" it can't be moved. With a very lenient DM we could pull it off, but I doubt this DM will allow it.
4) Warding Bond can be fantastic, but it means extra concentration saves. And given the hits they were dishing out I'd be at a high risk of one going after me and one going after my bondee in the same round, and me taking like 60+ damage in one round as a result. I think it's great against fewer targets, or softer-hitting targets, but this combo makes it pretty dangerous to use.

[Zene]

Not really. You can be just a little ways from their keep, and lure them to the designated spot (Giants aren't very intelligent, barring cloud and storm giants, and are arrogant enough to charge headfirst into the enemy).

Additionally, (s)he could simply have the bard/sorcerer/wizard/whatever cast Greater Invisibility on him, and he'd be free to get close and prepare the glyphs unnoticed.

I don't think we'll be able to lure them out. But, that invisibility idea might work!

[Flashy]

Additionally, (s)he could simply have the bard/sorcerer/wizard/whatever cast Greater Invisibility on him, and he'd be free to get close and prepare the glyphs unnoticed.

The hour cast time on Glyph of Warding prevents this combination from working since Greater Invisibilty only has a one minute duration.

[BiPolar]

I like the way you think!

I'm not sure I'd be able to follow your advice in this instance, though:
1) They were doing like 40+ dmg/hit. Aid would be using one of my highest-level spell slots for not even one hit's equivalent on each party member.
2) Similarly, they were doing damage far faster than I could repair it. Maybe with Beacon of Hope, multiple Mass Healing Words and CD: Preserve Life I could keep up for a few rounds, but I'd run out of gas real quick.
3) I love the glyph of warding ideas. But that whole "cast it on a surface and then move it" thing requires pretty liberal interpretation of the word "surface", since if you cast it on an "object" it can't be moved. With a very lenient DM we could pull it off, but I doubt this DM will allow it.
4) Warding Bond can be fantastic, but it means extra concentration saves. And given the hits they were dishing out I'd be at a high risk of one going after me and one going after my bondee in the same round, and me taking like 60+ damage in one round as a result. I think it's great against fewer targets, or softer-hitting targets, but this combo makes it pretty dangerous to use.

I'm going to agree with Spectre a bit and say that if you can come up with a means to fight them on your turf and not theirs, then the use of Glyphs of Warding could be a really good tactic(they could be buffs for your and your party as well as traps for the Giants.) However, the downside is that if the DM short-circuits it, that's a lot of wasted planning that will result in either no encounter or potentially a TPK (but not really on that last one, it basically just moves you back to square one.)

If on Square One, it goes back to whether or not you think a d4 will make enough of a difference. If it does, it's a great call. If not, then it's not :)

If it's not, then I'm still generally a believer in the best defense is a good offense. Spiritual weapon, Spirit Guardians, and your cleric going into melee.

[Zene]

Bane isn't a bad shout at all. It gets even better if more of your party are forcing saves.

What other classes are there?

2 sorcerers, both ranged/aoe blasters; 2 open hand monks; and 2 shadow monks. So yeah forced saves are a thing with us.

[Spectre9000]

I like the way you think!

I'm not sure I'd be able to follow your advice in this instance, though:
1) They were doing like 40+ dmg/hit. Aid would be using one of my highest-level spell slots for not even one hit's equivalent on each party member.
2) Similarly, they were doing damage far faster than I could repair it. Maybe with Beacon of Hope, multiple Mass Healing Words and CD: Preserve Life I could keep up for a few rounds, but I'd run out of gas real quick.
3) I love the glyph of warding ideas. But that whole "cast it on a surface and then move it" thing requires pretty liberal interpretation of the word "surface", since if you cast it on an "object" it can't be moved. With a very lenient DM we could pull it off, but I doubt this DM will allow it.
4) Warding Bond can be fantastic, but it means extra concentration saves. And given the hits they were dishing out I'd be at a high risk of one going after me and one going after my bondee in the same round, and me taking like 60+ damage in one round as a result. I think it's great against fewer targets, or softer-hitting targets, but this combo makes it pretty dangerous to use.

1)That sounds like Storm Giants. They're CR 13. You should not be fighting a fort of Storm Giants at level 7/8 lol. Honestly, your DM probably allowed you to live if you're facing Storm Giants. It might be helpful though to clarify what type of giants these are you're facing. It'll help in coming up with a strategy.
2)That's certainly understandable with them dealing that high damage.
3)You don't need to move the glyphs. Just move the giants to the glyphs.
4)With such high damage, Blessed Healer isn't going to help much with Warding Bond, so is probably not a good idea here.


I think the only option you have really is the Glyph of Warding idea if you're truly taking on giants so far above your own level. Incidentally, you just said you were attacking this stronghold, but didn't mention why. Perhaps, there's an alternative to killing everything? Why do you need to kill the giants in this fort?

[RulesJD]

Generally speaking, as a Cleric, it is one of your better spells to use against Hill and Stone giants. Possibly Frost.

Against Fire and Storm giants, you want Bless. Their +to-hit is so high that you're better off boosting your party's chance of actually hitting them.

[BiPolar]

Generally speaking, as a Cleric, it is one of your better spells to use against Hill and Stone giants. Possibly Frost.

Against Fire and Storm giants, you want Bless. Their +to-hit is so high that you're better off boosting your party's chance of actually hitting them.

Agreed, what kind of Giants are we talking about? How much do you want to meta-plan as well(look at their stat-block)?

[Zene]

They're fire giants, but not just run-of-the-mill ones. Their attacks were doing regular damage stacked with fire damage. Not sure of the exact stats. Definitely a very high to-hit though.

We don't need to kill them all. For RP reasons we definitely want to, but of course living to fight another day is better. What we do need to do, though, is take out their leader. A stealth mission for a targeted strike on him might be a backup option, especially with PWT from the shadow monks. However, between hellhound guard dogs patrolling, giant-sized metal doors that I don't think we could open quietly, etc... I think stealth may be a longshot. Plus if we don't take him out super quietly and quickly, a raised alarm would mean fighting our way out through the whole force anyway.

Can't meta-plan too much. My character's background is Sage (with the Researcher feature), so finding stat-blocks I think is justifiable if I have access to a library; however between last session and the next one, we are just long-resting hidden near their stronghold, so no opportunity to research.

He is a worshipper of Oghma, though, so maybe some prayers and a Guidanced History/Nature/Arcana check could convince the DM to let some info slip... not sure.

[BiPolar]

They're fire giants, but not just run-of-the-mill ones. Their attacks were doing regular damage stacked with fire damage. Not sure of the exact stats. Definitely a very high to-hit though.

We don't need to kill them all. For RP reasons we definitely want to, but of course living to fight another day is better. What we do need to do, though, is take out their leader. A stealth mission for a targeted strike on him might be a backup option, especially with PWT from the shadow monks. However, between hellhound guard dogs patrolling, giant-sized metal doors that I don't think we could open quietly, etc... I think stealth may be a longshot. Plus if we don't take him out super quietly and quickly, a raised alarm would mean fighting our way out through the whole force anyway.

Can't meta-plan too much. My character's background is Sage (with the Researcher feature), so finding stat-blocks I think is justifiable if I have access to a library; however between last session and the next one, we are just long-resting hidden near their stronghold, so no opportunity to research.

He is a worshipper of Oghma, though, so maybe some prayers and a Guidanced History/Nature/Arcana check could convince the DM to let some info slip... not sure.

THis definitely changes my viewpoint to think Offense. You know that they hit very hard and it's very hard to hit them. Reducing their chance to hit you only gets you so far. It's much better to remove them from the equation. Bless or Spiritual Guardians to help increase damage output is the way I'd take this.

[Flashy]

They're fire giants, but not just run-of-the-mill ones. Their attacks were doing regular damage stacked with fire damage. Not sure of the exact stats. Definitely a very high to-hit though.

We don't need to kill them all. For RP reasons we definitely want to, but of course living to fight another day is better. What we do need to do, though, is take out their leader. A stealth mission for a targeted strike on him might be a backup option, especially with PWT from the shadow monks. However, between hellhound guard dogs patrolling, giant-sized metal doors that I don't think we could open quietly, etc... I think stealth may be a longshot. Plus if we don't take him out super quietly and quickly, a raised alarm would mean fighting our way out through the whole force anyway.

Can't meta-plan too much. My character's background is Sage (with the Researcher feature), so finding stat-blocks I think is justifiable if I have access to a library; however between last session and the next one, we are just long-resting hidden near their stronghold, so no opportunity to research.

He is a worshipper of Oghma, though, so maybe some prayers and a Guidanced History/Nature/Arcana check could convince the DM to let some info slip... not sure.

Uh, how many of these are you fighting at once? 3x NORMAL fire giants rate as a deadly encounter for your party. If they're doing bonus damage on top OF that you may be grossly outclassed.

[Spectre9000]

They're fire giants, but not just run-of-the-mill ones. Their attacks were doing regular damage stacked with fire damage. Not sure of the exact stats. Definitely a very high to-hit though.

We don't need to kill them all. For RP reasons we definitely want to, but of course living to fight another day is better. What we do need to do, though, is take out their leader. A stealth mission for a targeted strike on him might be a backup option, especially with PWT from the shadow monks. However, between hellhound guard dogs patrolling, giant-sized metal doors that I don't think we could open quietly, etc... I think stealth may be a longshot. Plus if we don't take him out super quietly and quickly, a raised alarm would mean fighting our way out through the whole force anyway.

Can't meta-plan too much. My character's background is Sage (with the Researcher feature), so finding stat-blocks I think is justifiable if I have access to a library; however between last session and the next one, we are just long-resting hidden near their stronghold, so no opportunity to research.

He is a worshipper of Oghma, though, so maybe some prayers and a Guidanced History/Nature/Arcana check could convince the DM to let some info slip... not sure.

You don't need to "meta-plan". You've fought them and killed at least one. You have a good idea of what they're capable of, and what it takes to kill one. You're a Sage, which probably means you're a quick study, so anything you come up with will be justified as knowledge you gained in game through your encounter previously.


All that being said, Fire Giants are CR 9 at base level. With the extras they're higher than that. Your party really shouldn't be fighting them. However, with that being said I have an idea that depends on your Sorcerers:

Fortunately this is a pretty straight forward slug-fest, so have your sorcerers twin polymorph your Monks into Rexes/Giant Apes. As a researcher I'm sure you can justify the knowledge of these creatures by having read about them in books (which you might even have on your person to show others). This gives them a significant boon to health and damage. Fight the giants till Polymorph breaks, then flee back to a place you've prepared all your glyphs for the past day(s), and start a second round of combat there. Before Polymorph breaks the first time, you should be able to kill at least a couple/few of the giants. Once you get to your glyphs, have the aforementioned (suggestions from my first post) spells prepared and you should be able to kill another couple. Then retreat for the day. You should be able to thin their ranks some. With that you might have an easier time sneaking in with less there to confront you, or alternatively, you can rinse and repeat this.

The downside of this is, you're not going to contribute much to the fight outside of making sure no one dies, and everyone lives to fight another day (which is rather important in this situation given the difficulty of this encounter).

[Zene]

Uh, how many of these are you fighting at once? 3x NORMAL fire giants rate as a deadly encounter for your party. If they're doing bonus damage on top OF that you may be grossly outclassed.

Yeah I'm thinking there's probably a way to approach the fights that doesn't bring them all down on us at once, we just haven't discovered/figured it out yet. If we could somehow corner them one at a time I'm sure we could take them. The monks might even be able to keep 1-2 stunlocked, keeping them from raising an alarm.

[Zene]

Fortunately this is a pretty straight forward slug-fest, so have your sorcerers twin polymorph your Monks into Rexes/Giant Apes. As a researcher I'm sure you can justify the knowledge of these creatures by having read about them in books (which you might even have on your person to show others). This gives them a significant boon to health and damage. Fight the giants till Polymorph breaks, then flee back to a place you've prepared all your glyphs for the past day(s), and start a second round of combat there. Before Polymorph breaks the first time, you should be able to kill at least a couple/few of the giants. Once you get to your glyphs, have the aforementioned (suggestions from my first post) spells prepared and you should be able to kill another couple. Then retreat for the day. You should be able to thin their ranks some. With that you might have an easier time sneaking in with less there to confront you, or alternatively, you can rinse and repeat this.

The downside of this is, you're not going to contribute much to the fight outside of making sure no one dies, and everyone lives to fight another day (which is rather important in this situation given the difficulty of this encounter).

Hit-and-run guerilla tactics may be the best way to go. We've already thinned them out a bit. Not sure if the Sorcs have polymorph but yeah that'd definitely be a strong option.

[Spectre9000]

I'm going to assume the Fire Giant stronghold is on a Volcano, so I imagine there will be deep chasms the Giants could fall in... You could use Phantasmal Force (if the sorcerers have it) to make Giants jump into them by creating an illusory bridge, or you could use it to make an illusory wall such as a Wall of Lightning across the keep entrance. Your sorcerers can sit back and hurl spells at them while they won't cross it out of fear of the lightning.

There's also the option that the Sorcerer's simply fly over them and keep hurling spells at them from more than 60 ft away (preferably more than 240 ft away). It's kind of a cheese, but it's also kinda messed up you're facing such a hugely difficult encounter.

[Biggstick]

Another option to think about is that you as a Cleric have access to the Stone Shape spell. Depending on how many days you have, you could have a combination of Twinned Sorcerer Invisibility/Polymorph, Shadow Monk Pass w/o Trace, and your Stone Shape to sneak into the fortress and quietly "shape" your own tunnel into the Giant throne room.

Depending on how thick the walls are and how good your intel is during the scouting missions, this may or may not take a few days.

[Spectre9000]

Another option to think about is that you as a Cleric have access to the Stone Shape spell. Depending on how many days you have, you could have a combination of Twinned Sorcerer Invisibility/Polymorph, Shadow Monk Pass w/o Trace, and your Stone Shape to sneak into the fortress and quietly "shape" your own tunnel into the Giant throne room.

Depending on how thick the walls are and how good your intel is during the scouting missions, this may or may not take a few days.

The problem with this is they have no way to keep the other giants from joining in once they engage the leader.

[eastmabl]

Bane isn't a bad shout at all. It gets even better if more of your party are forcing saves.

Hill giants are also sacks of hit points with poor saving throws. Provided that you can keep bane active, it could be a very "bang for the buck" spell.

Also, the AC for most of your party isn't in "plate armor" territory, so any help you can be for that AC is probably better.

[ShikomeKidoMi]

Yeah I'm thinking there's probably a way to approach the fights that doesn't bring them all down on us at once, we just haven't discovered/figured it out yet. If we could somehow corner them one at a time I'm sure we could take them. The monks might even be able to keep 1-2 stunlocked, keeping them from raising an alarm.

Here's where Bane shines. Against Giants, the penalty to hit probably won't matter much, but the penalty to saves is glorious, as long as you have debilitating save effects to throw at them.

For example, since someone brought up polymorph strategies, here's an arguably better use of the spell: cast Bane and then have the sorcerers turn two of the giants into harmless animals for the duration of the fight. Then, after it's over, drop the animals down a deep ravine. The kind where, even if the giants somehow survive, they'll take a long time to climb back up. As far as animals go, I recommend something that's helpless on land but breathes air, like a dolphin. Have your 4 monks stunlock the remaining giants so they don't break the sorcerers' concentration. This strategy should work on 3-4 giants.

[MrStabby]

Well a few ways have been mentioned to get onto the throne room. If you can do this and cast a wall spell blocking off the entrances you can stop reinforcements joining and only fight the king and anyone immediately next to him.

In this situation using your concentration for banishment might be better.

[Zene]

Love the ideas, thanks all. Returning to their stronghold tomorrow to try out some of these strategies.

[NecroDancer]

Best of luck

[Zene]

An update in case anyone is interested:

When we reconvened, our party makeup had changed a little (it's AL, so this happens a bit). It was now a sorcerer, two shadow monks, and an archery rogue. The sorcerer did not have polymorph.

We ended up trying the stealth/guerilla tactic, using PWT to sneak around undetected. We were able to find the leader we were gunning for, made sure we had an escape route in case things went south, and then jumped him when he only had a relatively small amount of allies around. Didn't end up using Bane unfortunately due to the layout of the field. It was a super tough fight, but we (just barely) pulled through and were able to take them out before more reinforcements could get there. We then stealthed back out.

We still need to go back in for a couple of other smaller objectives, but that was the biggest piece of our mission. Success!

We also now know enough about the place that, if we decide we want to fully clear it (which we might), I think there's a good chance we can get in there undetected, take time to setup strategically-placed glyphs per the earlier suggestion in the thread, lure enemies to them, and kick some serious butt.

[ShikomeKidoMi]

An update in case anyone is interested:

When we reconvened, our party makeup had changed a little (it's AL, so this happens a bit). It was now a sorcerer, two shadow monks, and an archery rogue. The sorcerer did not have polymorph.

Glad to hear it worked out for you.

If you want to use Bane in the future, it combos nicely with a sorcerer who has Hypnotic Pattern or Hold Person.