General Shadowrun Questions III: Ya like that, Chummer?

[Lord Torath]

The previous two Shadowrun General Questions threads have vanished, so I'm starting a third.

Here's a link to the previous Shadowrun General Questions (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?394128-General-Shadowrun-Questions) thread.
And the one before that: Shadowrun Topic (Talk & Questions) (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?308353-Shadowrun-Topic(Talk-amp-Questions))

My question: The UCAS President Alan Adams dies in Early 2052, leaving Vice President Thomas Steele in charge. Does anyone know what the cause of death was? Any suspicion of foul play?

[LibraryOgre]

According to the Wiki, he died of a stroke.

http://shadowrun.wikia.com/wiki/President_of_the_UCAS

[knightMARE]

So my group and I are interested in playing Shadowrun (5e) after a few of us played through the recent series of video games. I've been tagged to GM. I've had very little experience in the system (I ran a very very short game using the 4e rules but it was long enough ago that I can't remember anything useful), so I'm looking for a premade campaign/module/adventure to run through until I feel confident enough to write my own. I've been directed to Fast Food Fight (name?), which I'm going to run to introduce everyone to the rules, but after that I'm not sure what to do.

Does anyone have a suggestion for what to run? I've been told that a bunch of 4e modules can be adapted but I don't want to have to do that as a first timer, and I've been told Splintered State (name?) is not so great for newcomers to the setting.

[DigoDragon]

Does anyone have a suggestion for what to run?

I looked around a bit, but the only 5e adventures I've seen are published books/pdfs for sale. If you're looking for freebies, you might have to bite the bullet and convert some 4e adventures (It's similar enough to 5e that it might not be a complete headache).


Unrelated: I went back through some old notes on an adventure I ran years ago where the team infiltrates a rich person's party at his mansion in order to steal a painting. The team had intercepted one of the catering trucks, beat up the occupants, and then posed as caterers at this fancy event in order to mingle around and pick up gossip. Pretty good plan and in the end the team did get away with the painting (and even returned the truck to the saps they beat up, along with some "apology" money). :smalltongue:

One thing that I see now that I look back what that the team didn't grab any of the fancy food when they left. The truck still had several contains of real food, but none of the players thought to take any of it (well, the streetsam did grab one slice of cake just to try real chocolate frosting). In the world of soy-based diets, the food would have been quite valuable, but I guess no one thought about little details of the setting like that at the time. Most of the players were fairly new to Shadowrun, but even the veterans seemed to have been focused on the gossip and the target. Hmm, was just an interesting observation.

[comicshorse]

Unrelated: I went back through some old notes on an adventure I ran years ago where the team infiltrates a rich person's party at his mansion in order to steal a painting. The team had intercepted one of the catering trucks, beat up the occupants, and then posed as caterers at this fancy event in order to mingle around and pick up gossip. Pretty good plan and in the end the team did get away with the painting (and even returned the truck to the saps they beat up, along with some "apology" money). :smalltongue:


Heh, some tricks are universal, my group just used that tactic to steal a Egyptian Sarcophagus from a museum. Though we burned the truck afterwords to remove any evidence (not with the original caterers in it I should point out)

[DigoDragon]

Heh, some tricks are universal, my group just used that tactic to steal a Egyptian Sarcophagus from a museum. Though we burned the truck afterwords to remove any evidence (not with the original caterers in it I should point out)

My players wiped down the truck to be rid of fingerprints and stray hairs. I'm not that tough of a GM, so I let them succeed since they did think to do that at all. On the other hand, they did burn a stolen UPS truck later down the line in the campaign, but that was because it broke down on them in the barrens. They figured the company had insurance (which it did). They were nice enough to remove all the undelivered packages and set them aside before burning the truck and running of.

I didn't have the heart to tell them those packages were most likely stolen by gangs and hobos shortly after. :smalltongue:

[LibraryOgre]

I had a group that, for whatever reason, needed to steal a delivery truck. For the most part, we figured we'd steal it, hold the guys incognito, and let them go... why make enemies, you know?

But, of course, there was That Bastardtm. The player in every Shadowrun game that, while everyone else has decided on low-impact mirrorshades, wants to "make sure we're not found out" by planting a false trail that leads right to some random schmuck. In this case, I think he drained the guy's accounts, bought him a ticket to somewhere distant, and made him disappear, while the rest of us were saying "Yeah, he'll get blamed, but you can hardly expect Paul Blart to face down armed criminals, especially when they clearly tased the crap out of him.."

[comicshorse]

I had a group that, for whatever reason, needed to steal a delivery truck. For the most part, we figured we'd steal it, hold the guys incognito, and let them go... why make enemies, you know?

But, of course, there was That Bastardtm. The player in every Shadowrun game that, while everyone else has decided on low-impact mirrorshades, wants to "make sure we're not found out" by planting a false trail that leads right to some random schmuck. In this case, I think he drained the guy's accounts, bought him a ticket to somewhere distant, and made him disappear, while the rest of us were saying "Yeah, he'll get blamed, but you can hardly expect Paul Blart to face down armed criminals, especially when they clearly tased the crap out of him.."

You know that's actually better than I thought it would be. When you said 'The Bastard' I flashed on a couple of players who would have insisted on murdering the guys on the delivery truck to 'be safe' despite the objections of every-one of the other player :smallfrown:
One of them would have insisted on making it as messy or as slow as possible but then there's a reason I don't RP with him anymore

[Telwar]

A thought occurred while killing time at work before quittin' time tonight: Red mercury (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_mercury), in the Shadowrun universe, is fairly obviously some form of nucleosynthesized orichalcum (...or possibly a mercury radical), vanishingly rare, possibly accidentally produced in a reactor in the midst of a mana spike.

What stories can we tell using that, aside from the "oh look some more pre-Awakening magic?"

[Flashy]

A thought occurred while killing time at work before quittin' time tonight: Red mercury (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_mercury), in the Shadowrun universe, is fairly obviously some form of nucleosynthesized orichalcum (...or possibly a mercury radical), vanishingly rare, possibly accidentally produced in a reactor in the midst of a mana spike.

What stories can we tell using that, aside from the "oh look some more pre-Awakening magic?"

Off the top of my head...

1. The primary reactive material in some kind of Essence equivalent to a neutron bomb? Kills people but leaves buildings (and drones, and chromed up super-soldiers) standing.

2. Rather than being a part of a nuclear bomb it's the astral imprint of a nuclear detonation? An afterimage left in the location's aura.

3. Leaving aside the nuclear association, it's some kind of extreme delicacy for spirits and/or HMHVV infected? Almost like crystallized essence, with maybe some minorly addictive properties.

[DigoDragon]

I actually like the idea that it's still a hoax substance and an entire Run goes awry because a couple free spirits were messing around with people to make them think otherwise. :smalltongue:

[Telwar]

I actually like the idea that it's still a hoax substance and an entire Run goes awry because a couple free spirits were messing around with people to make them think otherwise. :smalltongue:

Oh that's even more fun.

Mostly I was thinking of metaphysics. Part of the problem, for me, is I don't think they're quite thought out...or if they were, the original ones may not have been used. First you get nukes not working in the Lone Eagle, then you get the Cermak blast working but strangely, and then you get thaumically enhanced warheads in Crash 2.0 that didn't actually go off IIRC. You'd think that'd be, ahem, rather heavily studied, since that's a rather large change in the way the universe works.

But I think about weird things like that when I'm standing outside waiting for my bus. Others are "well why are the bugs more successful now than the Invae were in Earthdawn?" (Current working theory for that is a much greater proportion of the population in ED was Awakened, and thus that more people will express as the mana levels rise, though you'd think the Great Ghost Dance would have jacked that up too...or maybe it only cracked open the way for the bugs and other unhappy things to get here a little bit easier...)

[LibraryOgre]

Oh that's even more fun.

Mostly I was thinking of metaphysics. Part of the problem, for me, is I don't think they're quite thought out...or if they were, the original ones may not have been used. First you get nukes not working in the Lone Eagle, then you get the Cermak blast working but strangely, and then you get thaumically enhanced warheads in Crash 2.0 that didn't actually go off IIRC. You'd think that'd be, ahem, rather heavily studied, since that's a rather large change in the way the universe works.

Are the Lone Eagle nukes not functioning a thing? I figured they didn't work because they were simply not as well maintained or armed as they might have wished, not for any metaphysical reason.


But I think about weird things like that when I'm standing outside waiting for my bus. Others are "well why are the bugs more successful now than the Invae were in Earthdawn?" (Current working theory for that is a much greater proportion of the population in ED was Awakened, and thus that more people will express as the mana levels rise, though you'd think the Great Ghost Dance would have jacked that up too...or maybe it only cracked open the way for the bugs and other unhappy things to get here a little bit easier...)

I'd say that you not only have a far greater portion of Awakened and greater knowledge of those sorts of threats, but you also had a lot smaller population. The Invae might take over a couple of towns, but you've got places like Seattle or Chicago, with millions of people, and it's a lot easier for them to build up numbers.

[Lord Torath]

2E Question:

Does vehicle armor stack with vehicle body to reduce the power of incoming fire? Per the rules, unarmored vehicles count their body value as ballistic and impact armor (incoming 12S round against a B/A: 6/0 vehicle gets reduced to 6M). If that vehicle was B/A: 6/3, would it be reduced to 3M? That's how I've always played it, but I just realized the book doesn't actually say that (p108).

[SaurOps]

2E Question:

Does vehicle armor stack with vehicle body to reduce the power of incoming fire? Per the rules, unarmored vehicles count their body value as ballistic and impact armor (incoming 12S round against a B/A: 6/0 vehicle gets reduced to 6M). If that vehicle was B/A: 6/3, would it be reduced to 3M? That's how I've always played it, but I just realized the book doesn't actually say that (p108).

Mostly, as it ignores multiple rounds fired, per the barrier armor rules. I want to say that Rigger 2 might have changed the system a bit, to ignoring body and simply halving power and staging the wound level down one before comparing Armor and Armor alone (i.e. no Body-based armor; damage reduction was done entirely in scaling), but that may just be my memories of SR3 leaking into my memories of SR2.

[Lord Torath]

Mostly, as it ignores multiple rounds fired, per the barrier armor rules. I want to say that Rigger 2 might have changed the system a bit, to ignoring body and simply halving power and staging the wound level down one before comparing Armor and Armor alone (i.e. no Body-based armor; damage reduction was done entirely in scaling), but that may just be my memories of SR3 leaking into my memories of SR2.I don't have Rigger II, so I'm just going with the SRII rulebook.

[Lord Torath]

Going back to my example, do you add the Body and Armor together, and then subtract from the Power of the weapon to determine the damage resistance target number (min 2) if the Power is greater than the Armor? (If the power is less than the armor, the shot bounces off) Do you use the higher of the two? Or is the Armor only used as a barrier rating, so if the power is greater the the armor, you still only subtract the Body to get the target number? Is the target number 6 or 3?

Separate Question: Can you spend Good Karma to improve your contact's skills? I'm specifically thinking of the Fixer here, and her Equipment Acquisition skill. Would Equipment Acquisition be considered a social skill, and subject to influence via Tailored Pheromones?

(Apologies for the double post, but it has been a couple of days, plus a new question)

[Weimann]

I've seen a 5e core book on sale. Is 5e a good version of Shadowrun, or is there a generally considered better one? If dubious, err on the side of streamlining.

[Blue Duke]

Apparently 5E is a clunky mess chok full of nonsense rules....i dont know for sure as my group rarely plays Shadowrun any more and the person that runs it prefers 4E

[Lord Torath]

I've seen a 5e core book on sale. Is 5e a good version of Shadowrun, or is there a generally considered better one? If dubious, err on the side of streamlining.I prefer 2nd Edition myself, but then I've only glanced at 3rd, and haven't touched 4th or 5th (probably because I'd have to spend money on new books and learn a new system). As I understand it, Shadowrun edition changes are rather similar to AD&D edition changes. 2nd is pretty much a tweak of 1st Edition, and 3rd is a compilation and extrapolation of late 2E changes. 4E is a radical change from previous versions, and 5E is a cleaned-up return to previous versions. Keep in mind the extent of my familiarity with the later editions.

If I were you, I'd wait to hear from someone who's actually played 4th and 5th for a good comparison.

[druid91]

Personally, while I can see WHY they did it, I don't like the way they handled the matrix in 5e.

Not that I'm overly experienced with it. To be honest. I've never even managed to get anyone to play 4e. Though I've read the books.

[Ronnoc]

I've seen a 5e core book on sale. Is 5e a good version of Shadowrun, or is there a generally considered better one? If dubious, err on the side of streamlining.
It really isn't. For a bit of context I've been gming Exalted 2.5 for three years now. Shadowrun 5e is still the worst cludge of ill thought out self contradicting rules that I have ever seen.

[Telwar]

I, personally, liked 4e a lot.

I've been dutifully collecting 5e, but I have no intention of running it. I'm not fond of the changes made (unlike 4e, where as much as I enjoyed 2e, I felt they were necessary), and the storyline seems just...lame.

[Weimann]

Thanks for your input. :)

I think I'll be passing on 5e, then. Perhaps I'll pick up 4e at some point instead.

[Floret]

Might be too late to voice it but I actually like 5E :smallwink:
While there are a whole lot of rules that are... questionable, and Technomancers are in need of a rework badly, I do enjoy some of the ideas they brought forward. Enough to say that with my usual attitude to rules (Anyone can call for them being used RAW, but unless they do, ruling many things not by RAW but by "yeah, close enough" - this style might require you to GM though, or find a GM with your play preferences.)

What I like? The Matrix rules, actually are among them, getting Matrix jockeys more involved and having their stuff take place simultaneously with the rest of the group creates less of a complete split that I experienced in 4th (And if you have a bunch of players sitting around for 10 minutes doing nothing while in-game the hacker needs like 1, that creates rather awkward situations.) The lore for WHY it works that way is wonky at best, but this is Shadowrun. The lore is always wonky at best :smalltongue:
Nerfing of multiple actions per round (Easier to get the second (Possible without ware or any other buffs), kind of harder to get the third and fourth), because seriously, if you weren't the three-action Sam in 4th you basically just sit combats out, and they take a LONG time.
So... more in the direction of "less waiting time for the group until that one guy is done with his stuff" and more "everyone can do something rather frequently" (Sure, if your character is useless in a fight, that kinda cancels that but hey. It would have anyways.)

I do also like the base idea of what they did with Technomancers, btw. Making them their own thing instead of "Hacker, but differently", they now do have their own stuff which can do things Hackers wouldn't dream of, without making hackers completely useless. (Problem is, here, that in the process of ensuring the Hackers place or whatever they made the costs for that stuff basically unbearable. Also give us back Streams for non-dissonant ones. And Paragons. What were you thinking.)
So, lots of good ideas, sometimes done alright, sometimes done well, and sometimes done weirdly. Streamlined it ain't, though.
I would also like to point out I am doing all this from the German version of the game, so there might be differences through the translation. The German books are known for doing additional stuff.

[TheMightyQuinn]

So, here's a question. I've been looking at different ideas for how to boost initiative in SR4.

One of the ideas I'm toying with would require an adept with centering using full dive VR while acting physically with a -6 modifier.

Now, centering could reduce some of that penalty, and something like enhanced articulation would help too.

A high agility would cover the rest of the penalty. More than likely an elf build.

I wasn't sure how viable the build would be, since it's not something I've ever seen proposed.

I've got some other ideas too, but I'll leave this short for now.

[Lord Torath]

Mostly, as it ignores multiple rounds fired, per the barrier armor rules. I want to say that Rigger 2 might have changed the system a bit, to ignoring body and simply halving power and staging the wound level down one before comparing Armor and Armor alone (i.e. no Body-based armor; damage reduction was done entirely in scaling), but that may just be my memories of SR3 leaking into my memories of SR2.Careful reading of the barrier rules say that you add the barrier rating to the armor rating if the power of the attack beats the barrier rating. So yes, you add the two together. Thus, in my example, the final damage code would be 3M.

[Delta]

Thanks for your input. :)

I think I'll be passing on 5e, then. Perhaps I'll pick up 4e at some point instead.

I think if you're coming at the game completely "unspoiled" by earlier edition, 5e isn't a bad place to start, actually. Not that it doesn't have glaring flaws and a huge bunch of issues, mechanics-wise, that's actually true. But so does every other edition of Shadowrun, in my experience. It's just that most older players have found the edition they're most comfortable with and have learned to live with its issues so they don't seem too bad.

[druid91]

So, something I've always wondered from 4e. With how in depth Shadowrun get's into the whole logistical side of things. I wonder what it would be like to have a party that entirely forsakes direct action. Leaving that to grunts and proxies. And devotes their builds to logistics required to supply teams of grunts and proxies.

Face and Hacker would probably survive the transition untouched. But what of the other roles? I feel like Medic, or at least cybersurgeon would come up as a new role.

[Delta]

Well Mages would still survive because Mages can do anything they want in SR (save for Hacker stuff, although actually in 4e it's not that hard to make a Matrix-savvy mage, although you usually want all the karma possible to go into magic stuff). Make it a summoning specialist and you have your little "grunt factory" right there.

[Floret]

It sounds like it might be an interesting game. And "Cybersurgeon that patches and upgrades a local gang to do stuff for them" sounds like a nice enough concept. I think in General many of the "new" roles might be ones that traditionally are found on the "Connections" side of things. Gangboss might be another likely addition.
(The Hacker might fly out the window in 5th edition at least, though, considering they need to be at least somewhat close to what is going down. Might not matter to you, though.
And, I guess I would prefer the whole group "respeccing", playing an infobroker rather than a Hacker, and a Johnson, instead of a classical Face, for example, if only for thematic coherence and everyone playing the same game, and not one group doing "actually involved/in the moment-action stuff" and the other part just the groundwork. You get a lot of players sitting around waiting for the others to be finished otherwise.)

The Problem I see is that there are, aside from Spirits and Sprites (And I mean... sort of Pets?) not really rules for commanding mooks. So if I understand you correctly, I can see the following happen:
So either the players set up stuff, and then
1) the GM rolls through the whole run (Much work and little fun for a GM to play with themselves for hours, and unless done between sessions frustrating for the players)
2) the GM just rolls something based on "how well did they plan and prepare"/Decides whether or not that was enough (Potentially frustrating to have things depend on a single roll or GM fiat)
3) Make up some form of rules ("mass battle" rules are a thing that can be done) for more player control over the mooks.

Alternately, you take the rules you have, and make a campaign solely on Buiseness crime. Maybe running sub-bosses of the Mafia, that never soil their hands, and the game just isn't about getting into people's houses anymore. Or maybe about managers of a big corporation. I would probably still recommend a different ruleset then, but it's probably doable in the Shadowrun rules.
With my usual opinion of "Just go and use a game that does what you want, instead of shoehorning what you want into a game that only maybe sort-of fits it" I'd try looking at games that have better rules for general "underlings" and refluffing that to Shadowrun. Or, well, houserules. I might see a more involved "Connection" system do the trick.

[druid91]

Seems to me there's just as much to do on the management side of things as on the merc-squad side.

As for grunts, you could handle that with contacts. "I know a street Sam. Let me give him a ring because we need some muscle for this job." As opposed to "I know a guy what fences priceless art."

YOU'RE the guy who fences priceless art. And your contacts are the guys who steal it!

[Floret]

Oh, I didn't think that there would be too little to do for a group in this setting. The general idea sounds great, is definitely put on my "list of things/one-shots to run if I get the chance". I am just not quite sure what to alter rules-wise if I do it, to make everything run smoothly.

And, okay, sure... One could go ahead and make the rules for "Does the Team actually manage to steal the art" the same as for "Is that contact able to get the Info/Stuff that we need"; which I know EXIST in 5th (never GMed 4th and am a bit light on the rules there. Can't say anything at all about 1st to 3rd) at least (And that I always replace with Gm fiat because **** those rules), but for such a situation might actually think about using. Might work. One would have to test it.

Probably needs a generation system where you can pump tons of points into Connections. Those exist, sure, and in 4th edition are "all of them", but I know that 5th edition priority system is terrible Connection-wise.

[Lord Torath]

2E question:

My group's Street Samurai (merc, really) has just purchased a Gunnery Facility, and has B/R Gunnery 6 or so. He wants to build a Vigilant Rotary Autocannon to mount on a pop-up turret in his Bulldog. How long, how expensive, and how difficult to make? ie: B/R Gunnery (target number) test, base cost is Y x weapon cost (125kY), and base construction time.

[SickBritKid]

Anyone have an idea for how I could homebrew a Fan The Hammer-type firing mode like McCree's alt-fire from Overwatch?

[Dimers]

So, something I've always wondered from 4e. With how in depth Shadowrun get's into the whole logistical side of things. I wonder what it would be like to have a party that entirely forsakes direct action. Leaving that to grunts and proxies. And devotes their builds to logistics required to supply teams of grunts and proxies.

Face and Hacker would probably survive the transition untouched. But what of the other roles? I feel like Medic, or at least cybersurgeon would come up as a new role.

Another role which I don't recall being possible before 4e is "tacnet master" -- providing the equipment and software to make tactical networking possible. Basically, you can give every member of your team +4 to everything. That'd be one handy way for a hacker to contribute to an indirect style of game. And it inherently includes tons of sensory transmissions, so the PC would be able to keep close watch on the grunts in case they do something dumb.


Well Mages would still survive because Mages can do anything they want in SR (save for Hacker stuff, although actually in 4e it's not that hard to make a Matrix-savvy mage, although you usually want all the karma possible to go into magic stuff). Make it a summoning specialist and you have your little "grunt factory" right there.

A mage could also go for buffing. A Detection spell specialist could give a grunt/proxy plenty of extra awareness. Or use the spell creation guidelines in Street Magic to design all kinds of stuff to benefit a team with a single casting. Sure, the Drain would be nasty, but you can sit back and rest while the team works.

[Telwar]

Anyone have an idea for how I could homebrew a Fan The Hammer-type firing mode like McCree's alt-fire from Overwatch?

In SR4, that's actually not that difficult. Mod the revolver with a Large Modification Firing Selection Change, to give it a FA setting. That's 4 points, so you have 2 more to hold your smartlink and something else.

The homebrew part comes in with what's likely custom headware running the tactical software that allows multiple headshots during this attack, reducing the various extra target penalties. McCree is clearly cybered, so that's not really an issue (though I suppose adept centering could help with that, too), but cost is probably high. Maybe 100k or so, or make it a unique 10-point quality.

[Cheech]

In 5e, Are pistols viable as a sole weapon choice in a long-running campaign, or will there be a need to upgrade to something with more firepower, like a machine gun or a sniper rifle, for heavier missions down the line?

[Delta]

That massively depends so many factors it's tough to give a generic answer. In general, a heavy pistols packs quite a punch and should be enough in most situations. But what role do you fill in your typical runner group? If you're the primary ranged weapons expert, you should be able to handle something heavier should the need arise. What kind of runs are you doing? If you're doing mostly white collar crime and high stealth breaking & entering stuff, yeah pistols should be enough. If you're doing missions for a drug cartel in latin america, that's a completely different animal.

[LibraryOgre]

2E question:

My group's Street Samurai (merc, really) has just purchased a Gunnery Facility, and has B/R Gunnery 6 or so. He wants to build a Vigilant Rotary Autocannon to mount on a pop-up turret in his Bulldog. How long, how expensive, and how difficult to make? ie: B/R Gunnery (target number) test, base cost is Y x weapon cost (125kY), and base construction time.

I have no idea; I'd lean towards looking at RBB for rules like that. You might also look into 4e's Arsenal for some rules to work with.

On the topic "Run a game where you're the fixer", I'd say it would be more difficult to do in Shadowrun, proper... you'd more or less want a game designed around worker management... and the first thing that pops to mind is Lords of Waterdeep.

[Lord Torath]

I have no idea; I'd lean towards looking at RBB for rules like that. You might also look into 4e's Arsenal for some rules to work with.Rigger Black Book has rules for modifying existing weapons to be vehicle-mounted, and for adding turrets and such to vehicles, but nothing about actually building weapons. I'll see if 3E Cannon Companion has anything I can scavenge.

[Delta]

I know that the german version of the 3e gun book definitely had weapon design rules, I just don't remember whether they're for out- or ingame design.

[Telwar]

Rigger Black Book has rules for modifying existing weapons to be vehicle-mounted, and for adding turrets and such to vehicles, but nothing about actually building weapons. I'll see if 3E Cannon Companion has anything I can scavenge.

Oh, yeah, there's a *fine* weapon construction system. There's so much I love about having my guns have their own character sheet.

Looking at it, it doesn't give an option to build a rotary cannon, though. You can probably to build something close and get TNs from that, though.

[Delta]

Problem with the weapon construction system as far as I remember was that there was hardly any balancing. Quite easy to build burst-fire capable 10M-Heavy Pistols with internal recoil compensation, 9M-assault rifles the size of large pistols and other fun stuff.

[Lord Torath]

I don't think I'll show the weapon design rules to my group, just use them myself to determine costs and target numbers. He doesn't want to design a new gun, just wants to build an existing one. I'll have their fixer locate the plans for them, probably at an Ares facility, and disconnected from the matrix. I'll maybe have an order or two in the system for Vigilants, which they can redirect if they are so inclined (and can fool the delivery truck guys). But I think I'll give them a few months - in game - before they can get this info. If they go with the design - build option, I'll go with a target number of 10, a cost of 100 grand (weapon cost is 125k), and a build time of 30 days.

Thanks for the ideas!

[Delta]

I'll have their fixer locate the plans for them, probably at an Ares facility, and disconnected from the matrix

Honestly, I'd ask you if you were kidding if you told me that as a GM. Plans for some super secret experimental laser cannon or whatever? Okay, I could buy that being stored on a secure, isolated system. But the plans for a standard issue vehicle mounted autocannon? That's pretty ridiculous to be honest, you could probably get the blueprints for a weapon like that today easily without ever getting up from your desk.

If they have the necessary facility, know-how and materials for the task, building stuff like that shouldn't be hard.

[Lord Torath]

Honestly, I'd ask you if you were kidding if you told me that as a GM. Plans for some super secret experimental laser cannon or whatever? Okay, I could buy that being stored on a secure, isolated system. But the plans for a standard issue vehicle mounted autocannon? That's pretty ridiculous to be honest, you could probably get the blueprints for a weapon like that today easily without ever getting up from your desk.

If they have the necessary facility, know-how and materials for the task, building stuff like that shouldn't be hard.Good point. It could just be easier to reach from inside the facility. Having the decker just run Ares is not really that exciting, you know. Getting the decker onsite and quietly past security is much more interesting. The runners are still pretty new, so the decker doesn't have amazing software yet, so high online security could be a decent reason to go onsite. If they think to get the specific instructions out of the CNC machines/slaves, I'll give them a -2 target bonus for the B/R test. Now I just need to design a matrix system (yes, it will have a connection to the main Ares constellation). And a manufacturing complex.

[Delta]

Getting the blueprint for a standard-issue autocannon simply shouldn't be an issue at all. I'd handle that with a simple data search test for the decker and be done with it.

I can put "machine gun blueprint" into google right now and get some pretty accurate looking ones. The problem is getting the tools and materials to build the stuff, not the design itself.

[Lord Torath]

A machine gun is one thing. A 30 mm rotary autocannon is something else entirely. Try finding blueprints for a GAU-8 Avenger or a GSh-6-30.

[druid91]

Also, you have to remember we live in a universe where a strong government can mostly protect a corporations patents.

In the Shadowrun Universe this is not true at all. Shadowrun is a universe where corporations hold onto their secrets like they're their own children. Also a universe where you can make a pretty good living pulling armed heists of nothing more than a blueprint.

[Telwar]

It's perfectly appropriate to have to do a run to get manufacturing specs for the Vigilant. But it shouldn't be impossible, because, well, that happens all the time, and it's probably fairly deprecated at this point in the timeline. Really, it's more like a Vulcan 20mm than a GAU-8, and even then we can probably find plans for those if we look places we're not supposed to.

And besides, they can easily find something they weren't supposed to on that should-be-easy-milk-run.

[comicshorse]

Or it should be possible to buy copies off somebody whose already done that ( or owe them a favour that can be cashed in for some suitable plot later)

[LibraryOgre]

https://www.schlockmercenary.com/2002-06-25

Truthfully, I don't see a lot of things like the Vigilant's blueprints remaining secret for long... think of the Chilton's Guides to cars, where they tear the thing down and build it back up to create a how-to-fix it guide... and Shadowrun, folks might well do that with the software, too.

[Delta]

In the Shadowrun Universe this is not true at all. Shadowrun is a universe where corporations hold onto their secrets like they're their own children. Also a universe where you can make a pretty good living pulling armed heists of nothing more than a blueprint.

Yes, of course. Blueprints for specialized tech that are hard to come by. But that's simply not the case here. This is a pretty standard vehicle mounted weapon, militaries all over the world will be using it or similar weapons, which should tell you all you need to know. It's not using any kind of high tech that hasn't been around for decades, dozens of companies all over the world will be producing copies or similar models, and blueprints should therefore be relatively easy to come by.

The blueprint for next years Ares Predator 6000 with some new Smartlink version will be much harder to come by and worth much more than this.

[LibraryOgre]

Yes, of course. Blueprints for specialized tech that are hard to come by. But that's simply not the case here. This is a pretty standard vehicle mounted weapon, militaries all over the world will be using it or similar weapons, which should tell you all you need to know. It's not using any kind of high tech that hasn't been around for decades, dozens of companies all over the world will be producing copies or similar models, and blueprints should therefore be relatively easy to come by.

The blueprint for next years Ares Predator 6000 with some new Smartlink version will be much harder to come by and worth much more than this.

Or the Ares laser weapons. Those, I can see being difficult to make. A rotary autocannon? The basic idea of those is 200 years old in Shadowrun. The version you download the specs for off of Shadowland might not be exactly the same as the Vigilant, but it'll be substantially so.

[Lord Torath]

Anyone ever run the adventure One Stage Before (1992)? If so, what map did you use for the wharf ambush(spoilered to protect those who have not played it)? The map they included in the adventure bears no resemblance - other than the presence of water - to what is described in the booklet. I'm looking to run it, and I need something that actually fits.

Edit: Nevermind. I threw something together in Inkscape.

[NINJA_HUNTER]

anyone on this forum running a shadow run game? i'm familiar with 1,2,3 & 4 i even have extra books for sale ^^

[OverdrivePrime]

So I'm running an IRL fantasy game with the SR5 system (ripped out the cyber, tech level is equivalent to 1300s Eurasia), because I like to give myself headaches.
My players are heading into the world's equivalent of Antarctica. The only things that live farther south than the coastal region are spirits - like ice elementals, paracritters that are naturally resistant or immune to cold, and extremely durable and frost resistant metatypes like Jotun frost giants.
Unfortunately, I can't find any information in any edition of Shadowrun about giants except that they're basically larger trolls without the horns and skin condition.

Soooo... how would you stat out a giant in SR5 (or SR4)? Not some pipsqueak troll, but a legitimate giant - 5-6m (17-20') of muscle and hubris.

I'm thinking something like:
Jotun Giant
Body: 9/14
Agility: 1/4
Reaction: 1/4
Strength: 9/14
Willpower: 1/5
Logic: 1/6
Intuition: 1/5
Charisma: 1/6
Edge: 1/6
Jotun Racial: Low-Light Vision, +2 Reach, +400% increased Lifestyle Costs

Average Jotun mook would be:
Body 12, Agility 3, Reaction 2, Strength 13, Willpower 2, Logic 3, Intuition 2, Charisma 3

Average Jotun Shaman would be;
Body 10, Agility 2, Reaction 2, Strength 10, Willpower 4, Logic 3, Intuition 3, Charisma 5

What do you think?

[Telwar]

So I'm running an IRL fantasy game with the SR5 system (ripped out the cyber, tech level is equivalent to 1300s Eurasia), because I like to give myself headaches.

Ouch. Do you, like, hate yourself or something? :smallsmile:



Soooo... how would you stat out a giant in SR5 (or SR4)? Not some pipsqueak troll, but a legitimate giant - 5-6m (17-20') of muscle and hubris.

I'm thinking something like:
Jotun Giant
Body: 9/14
Agility: 1/4
Reaction: 1/4
Strength: 9/14
Willpower: 1/5
Logic: 1/6
Intuition: 1/5
Charisma: 1/6
Edge: 1/6
Jotun Racial: Low-Light Vision, +2 Reach, +400% increased Lifestyle Costs

Average Jotun mook would be:
Body 12, Agility 3, Reaction 2, Strength 13, Willpower 2, Logic 3, Intuition 2, Charisma 3

Average Jotun Shaman would be;
Body 10, Agility 2, Reaction 2, Strength 10, Willpower 4, Logic 3, Intuition 3, Charisma 5

What do you think?

Not bad. They're a little less tough than the behemoth from Howling Shadows, which is roughly their size, but the jotuns would come in groups and honestly those are going to be tough enough as it is.

[Telwar]

So, I just picked up my copy of Cutting Aces at the Strategist...and it's softcover.

Which, it's not that it's in softcover (that's been generally the default until 5e), it's that it's the first major supplement for 5e that I've seen that's in softcover, everything else is in hardcover, and I don't see anything about a hardcover version. Any idea what gives?

[OverdrivePrime]

Ouch. Do you, like, hate yourself or something? :smallsmile: Sometimes I wonder. I really like classless, level-less systems, and I really like how magic works in Shadowrun as opposed to D&D/Pathfinder, so... I probably could have found a fantasy system that does that instead of retooling my favorite cyberpunk game. >__>


Not bad. They're a little less tough than the behemoth from Howling Shadows, which is roughly their size, but the jotuns would come in groups and honestly those are going to be tough enough as it is. I'll have to check out Howling Shadows. Thanks!

I forgot to add Cold Immunity and Severe Heat Allergy (-4 dice to resist fire damage) to the racial traits - I want to make the players hope the PCs were wearing their brown pants when the encounter the Jotuns, but it should be an encounter with multiple paths to survival/success.

[Flashy]

Sometimes I wonder. I really like classless, level-less systems, and I really like how magic works in Shadowrun as opposed to D&D/Pathfinder, so... I probably could have found a fantasy system that does that instead of retooling my favorite cyberpunk game. >__>

I'll have to check out Howling Shadows. Thanks!

Eh, I hacked SR 4 into a weird west game so I clearly hate myself only slightly less than you do.

[LibraryOgre]

I don't think hacking Shadowrun into a fantasy game is THAT unreasonable. I would probably steal a bit from Earthdawn and make being an adept cheap to free, and bring down the cost of being a magician by a like amount, but the 4e framework of "Your skill is your dice, your Force is your maximum number of hits" works pretty well.

[Alberic Strein]

Hey guys!

So, my questions are probably mage 101 but I'm used to playing mundanes, or adepts so it's all new to me.

Edit: The questions are about 4A.

1. I read everywhere that indirect elemental spells were not worth it compared to direct spells. On which I agreed, but last game I had to murder a sentry (only one other player showed up, and he was after the other sentry and my influence spell failed) at which point I was thoroughly reminded that net hits added to the drain value of the spell. So, force 7 manabolt with 6 successes meant 9 drain, which I hadn't expected. I have no issue with that. If you want to have someone's head explode you use a gun. Or eat drain. But that got me thinking, there should be a point where having enough spellcasting dice would make indirect combat spells less drainy than direct ones, no?

Out of chargen a specialized combat mage could get around 18 spellcasting dice without sacrificing too much (wolf mentor spirit + magic 6 + spellcasting 6 + combat spell specialization + quality 2 power focus) and between 10 and 15 resist drain dice (5 in both relevant stats + rank 1 centering + quality 2 centering focus + specific spell fetish) so, if we take average, you'd get 6 hits on your spellcasting and between 3 and 5 hits for drain resistance. Let's compare manabolt and frost. A force 3 spell would incur the same drain value for both (manabolt: 1 base +3hits and 1 base +3 for frost) and for the same 6 boxes of damage. But since the spells work differently, manabolt will see its drain value lowered as enemies succeed their willpower test to resist the damage, meaning it's an average drain 3 for 5 boxes of physical damage. Frost's drain value will remain unchanged, but its damage will be resisted, first with reaction which has a way higher chance of being higher than 3 against most enemies, then with body which again tends to be higher than willpower and half impact armor, since for now our poor unwilling test subject has the stats of a lone star, let's go with their armor, for another box of damage shaved off (unless I missed the spell armor penetration rule somewhere, which is a very real possibility). So we end up with 3 boxes of damage for a drain of 4 for frost, and it wouldn't be that surprising, probability-wise for there to be only two boxes of damage.

Let's keep hitting lone stars but up the force of the spell: Manabolt force 7 Vs Frost force 7. Now manabolt has a drain value of 9 (3 base + 6 hits) and Frost has a drain value of 6 (3 base + 3), both should do the same 13 boxes of damage. Again, Manabolt will lose 1 box of damage but that will also knock 1 off the drain value, while frost will lose 3 to 4 damage and keep the same drain value. Meaning manabolt ends up with a drain value of 8 for 12 boxes of damage, while Frost gets a drain value of 6 for 9-10 damage, which will be further lowered by better enemies.

So to answer my own question, it seems that no matter what, direct combat spells will always overpower indirect combat spells. Also, is it possible to limit your spellcasting net hits? Like, if I roll 6 successes on a force 11 manabolt, can I say "I will keep only one net hit") then the victim opposes the spell and any hits left over are lowered to 1? For a whooping 12 damage and drain 6? Is that legit?

2. Did I miss something or is Ignite utterly useless? It does very limited damage, takes a long, long, long time to go off and needs me to cast it to a rather high force to affect items?

3. Is there an official confirmation that I can manifest a physical barrior horizontally or at an angle, making ramps, slides for children, bridges, and flipping cars over?

4. Is a bit complicated and I didn't expect to spend so much time on 1. so it will be coming later. But basically it's about avoiding being too overbearing as a mage, my examples of terrible, terrible shadowrun games came from the mage doing things and the rest of us just sitting back and waiting.

Anyway, thanks for reading that far!

[DigoDragon]

1. I read everywhere that indirect elemental spells were not worth it compared to direct spells. On which I agreed, but last game I had to murder a sentry (only one other player showed up, and he was after the other sentry and my influence spell failed) at which point I was thoroughly reminded that net hits added to the drain value of the spell. So, force 7 manabolt with 6 successes meant 9 drain, which I hadn't expected. I have no issue with that. If you want to have someone's head explode you use a gun. Or eat drain. But that got me thinking, there should be a point where having enough spellcasting dice would make indirect combat spells less drainy than direct ones, no?

If I remember the rules for 4A spellcasting, every net hit on a Direct spell increases the drain by +1, but Indirect spells do not have the increased drain. It's been some time since I played, but I seem to remember that Direct spells are more efficient for reliable damage against heavily armored targets, while Indirect spells are better when used against lightly or unarmored (and if you want to overcast something, indirect might not kill you so quickly with the slower-scaling drain).

There's always some luck involved though. Even if targets have a bigger dice pool to work with for soaking damage by an Indirect spell, they could still flub it. I've accidentally killed targets with stun spells because their armor failed to soak any hits. ^^;



2. Did I miss something or is Ignite utterly useless? It does very limited damage, takes a long, long, long time to go off and needs me to cast it to a rather high force to affect items?

If you need to light something, I recommend Magic Fingers and a zippo. :smalltongue:



3. Is there an official confirmation that I can manifest a physical barrior horizontally or at an angle, making ramps, slides for children, bridges, and flipping cars over?

Hmm. I think this is going to depend on your GM. Personally, I've interpreted it as the spell only creates vertical barriers (or domes in some cases), but I've allowed spellcasters to research a new spell for a horizontal floor/ramp version of the barrier.



4. Is a bit complicated and I didn't expect to spend so much time on 1. so it will be coming later. But basically it's about avoiding being too overbearing as a mage, my examples of terrible, terrible shadowrun games came from the mage doing things and the rest of us just sitting back and waiting.

When I mage, I tend to focus on buffing my teammates so they can do things better. I don't like to take the spotlight because smart opponents know to frag the mage first. :smalltongue: Then again, I tend to lean a bit more toward the mirror shades style.

[Lord Torath]

2E Availability:

For this Acquisition test, the gamemaster rolls a number of dice equal to either the source's relevant Special Skill (such as the fixer's "Equipment Acquisition" Skill) or the standard Etiquette Skill (Street, Corporate, and so on), adding +2, against the first value of the Availability Code, which serves as the target number.
Does the +2 increase the dice rolled for the Etiquette Skill, or to all searches?
Do you use the PC's Etiquette skills, or the source's Etiquette skill?
If it's the source's Etiquette skill, is there any way to spend karma to increase your contact's Etiquette or Special Skills to make it easier to find rare equipment?

[LibraryOgre]

2E Availability:

Does the +2 increase the dice rolled for the Etiquette Skill, or to all searches?
Do you use the PC's Etiquette skills, or the source's Etiquette skill?
If it's the source's Etiquette skill, is there any way to spend karma to increase your contact's Etiquette or Special Skills to make it easier to find rare equipment?

Good lord, that is a horribly written rule.

I would say that the best reading of that is that you roll ((Skill)+2) dice against the availability. So, if I have Corp Etiquette 3, I roll 5 dice against availaiblity. If I'm relying on my Fixer's Equipment Acquisition skill of 5, he rolls 7 dice.

[Telwar]

Good lord, that is a horribly written rule.

...and yet you're not surprised, because it's Shadowrun a tabletop rpg.


I would say that the best reading of that is that you roll ((Skill)+2) dice against the availability. So, if I have Corp Etiquette 3, I roll 5 dice against availaiblity. If I'm relying on my Fixer's Equipment Acquisition skill of 5, he rolls 7 dice.

I agree, though my initial first parse was it was adding to the target number, but then I realized that made no sense at all. So, ((skill)+2) dice.

[druid91]

That moment when you realize you forgot to take Hardware on your B&E Demo-man. And so can't actually open up maglocks to get at their innards.

[Dimers]

... Did you really just say that you know Demolitions but you can't open a thing up?

I mean, never mind getting into its innards, you can have its innards all over the landscape. You can be among the lock.

:smallsmile:

[LibraryOgre]

... Did you really just say that you know Demolitions but you can't open a thing up?

I mean, never mind getting into its innards, you can have its innards all over the landscape. You can be among the lock.

:smallsmile:

And once again, Sgt. Schlock shows the way. (https://www.schlockmercenary.com/2003-04-12)

[DigoDragon]

I was going to comment about the noise of opening locks via the Demo skill, but it occurs to me that no sane security officer is going to want to move toward the sounds of something exploding. :smalltongue:

[Lord Torath]

I was going to comment about the noise of opening locks via the Demo skill, but it occurs to me that no sane security officer is going to want to move toward the sounds of something exploding. :smalltongue:Well, not until back-up arrives. That's when the men with guns and german shepherds barghests arrive. :belkar:

Best to hold off on the loud noises until you're on your way out.

[Telok]

I was going to comment about the noise of opening locks via the Demo skill, but it occurs to me that no sane security officer is going to want to move toward the sounds of something exploding. :smalltongue:

Ah, old memories...

We were trying to infiltrate one of our guys into an industrial compound to get water samples from some equipment. We wanted a distraction to help our physAd in and another to help him out. Naturally we decided on explosions. Our guy was near a couple of guards when one of the explosions went off, and they didn't move.

"What were those changes to our health care plan last month?"

He still got away. They pulled out their phones to check the health plan.

[DigoDragon]

Well, not until back-up arrives. That's when the men with guns and german shepherds barghests arrive. :belkar:

One of the best distractions I helped create on a run to collect specific paydata, was calling in a bomb threat to the building across the street from the target building we needed to break into. The target building had better security, so we broke into the building across the street and planted a mysterious package that looked like it could be a bomb (it was a bomb, because the rigger demanded authenticity, but it was not armed, because the shaman demanded sanity). Us Runners dressed up as cops and helped evac the target building. It worked, as no one really questions the police when there are a dozen legitimate emergency vehicles pulling up to your street. Those knowledge skills came in handy too, as we had skills in police procedures, medical evac, terrorist negotiations, etc. from half the party being former Lonestar or DocWagon. :smallbiggrin:

Was one of those rare runs that just went near flawless.



He still got away. They pulled out their phones to check the health plan.

Pffft haha! That's GMing right in my opinion. Making your security personnel seem like real people with real concerns about themselves.

[LibraryOgre]

So, security hounds. Torath mentioning Barghests had me thinking about what security hounds DO get used.

What all have y'all seen, in official and unofficial sources?

[comicshorse]

I remember one run where the Mage doing an Astral recon pocked his head into a room and nearly got it bitten off by a Hellhound (Paranormal Animals of North America p82)

[Lord Torath]

I remember one run where the Mage doing an Astral recon pocked his head into a room and nearly got it bitten off by a Hellhound (Paranormal Animals of North America p82)Another adventure had a basilisk, a cockatrice, and two griffons for on-site security. Another one just had regular guard dogs (with troll handlers).

[DigoDragon]

I don't think my players had ever faced anything more terrifying than a trained rottweiler.

[comicshorse]

I was never that convinced by the idea of security hounds in Shadowrun. Sensors can tell intruders are coming better than animal senses and automatic guns can do more damage. The only thing Critters can do that tech. can't is spot Astral intruders and Spirits are better for that ( though harder to get and maintain)


Another adventure had a basilisk, a cockatrice, and two griffons for on-site security.

Is that 'Mercurial' ? I remember dealing with the basilik and the cockatrice but not the griffon

[DigoDragon]

I was never that convinced by the idea of security hounds in Shadowrun. Sensors can tell intruders are coming better than animal senses and automatic guns can do more damage. The only thing Critters can do that tech. can't is spot Astral intruders and Spirits are better for that ( though harder to get and maintain)

A security dog or para-critter might be a neat 'low tech' option to trip up some Runner teams that only planned for hacking sensors.

[Lord Torath]

Is that 'Mercurial' ? I remember dealing with the basilisk and the cockatrice but not the griffonThat was the one. The griffons were on the top floor. No mention was made of their bedding, though. I assumed their nests were in the gym.

That just occurred to me as a way to infiltrate the place. Intercept the next meat delivery truck, and replace the personnel. Head up the service elevator, and start shooting when the doors open. My group's decker set up shop in the mainframe, spoofed the cameras and unlocked the doors while the rest of the team stealthed in, taking out all the guards on the first floor (heavy use of narcojet pistols), then took the service elevator up while the decker sent up the other elevators (to draw the guards away from the service elevator) and kept the opposition decker from stopping the elevators.

Do you remember how your group got in?

I agree with Digo; live animals can't be hacked the way security systems can be. It just adds one more layer to the security around a place. Unless the security mage is paying astral attention, his astral spirits can be killed/banished without notice. And if he needs to be astrally projecting to keep tabs on his astral watchers, why bother? Para-critters can also be taken out from astral space, but their handlers will probably notice when they suddenly drop.

Anyone ever research an Invisibility spell that works in the Infrared? It's really just expanding the spectrum of blocked light.

[LibraryOgre]

A security dog or para-critter might be a neat 'low tech' option to trip up some Runner teams that only planned for hacking sensors.

And it gives you the anti-magic protection.

Consider that, if you've got a few dog-handling teams out there... a couple guys, a couple hellhounds... you've got roving anti-spirit assets that don't require a mage. Mages are expensive. Every mage you hire is six figures a year, at least. Security guards who are good with dogs? They're a lot cheaper, and a lot less likely to leave you for a better offer, because no one is offering better. You hire yourself some dog teams and you also get armed, mundane security to go with your flame-breathing spirit-killers.

[ArendK]

And it gives you the anti-magic protection.

Consider that, if you've got a few dog-handling teams out there... a couple guys, a couple hellhounds... you've got roving anti-spirit assets that don't require a mage. Mages are expensive. Every mage you hire is six figures a year, at least. Security guards who are good with dogs? They're a lot cheaper, and a lot less likely to leave you for a better offer, because no one is offering better. You hire yourself some dog teams and you also get armed, mundane security to go with your flame-breathing spirit-killers.

The joys of creative security.

On a side note; started with a new group last weekend for SR (5e). Rigger, elf assassin, troll street sam and hacker/face (me). First run is to extract Scientist Joe Snuffy who happens to be dabbling in Cybermancy research and collect all forms of his research (hardcopy and digital, all kept on site of facility...). The only way we found in was to split our party, send the face and the assassin in as inspectors and just let the rigger and troll go ballistic raising hell outside as a distraction. Thus far, the rigger is already down 2 drones and the troll got tagged pretty good.

The host we are looking for we know we have to get to the basement for of this building in order to access it, where everything juicy is stored. Now we have to try to make our way to the basement amidst the confusion.

Any suggestions or ideas?

[comicshorse]

That was the one. The griffons were on the top floor. No mention was made of their bedding, though. I assumed their nests were in the gym.

That just occurred to me as a way to infiltrate the place. Intercept the next meat delivery truck, and replace the personnel. Head up the service elevator, and start shooting when the doors open. My group's decker set up shop in the mainframe, spoofed the cameras and unlocked the doors while the rest of the team stealthed in, taking out all the guards on the first floor (heavy use of narcojet pistols), then took the service elevator up while the decker sent up the other elevators (to draw the guards away from the service elevator) and kept the opposition decker from stopping the elevators.

Do you remember how your group got in?



I racked my brains and I can't remember how we broke in. Then it occured to me I can't remember because I played that campaign nearly 30 years ago and then I had to go and have a lie down from shock ( and a touch of horror)
:smalleek:

Re; paranatural critters I remember there being too problems with them. One it costs a lot to train them so they don't burn down your building accidentally and the other being that they are very susceptible (if dual natured) to Mages 'grounding' spells down on them from Astral

[LibraryOgre]

Re; paranatural critters I remember there being too problems with them. One it costs a lot to train them so they don't burn down your building accidentally and the other being that they are very susceptible (if dual natured) to Mages 'grounding' spells down on them from Astral

I got the impression, starting about the Awakenings sourcebook, that the costs and difficulties had gone down significantly since Paranormal Animals of North America. Remember the story about the old lady with a Hellhound? Who gives a little old lady a Hellhound if there's a decent chance they're going to set the city on fire.

And, I think since 3rd or 4th edition, Grounding Spells from the astral is no longer a thing.

[comicshorse]

And, I think since 3rd or 4th edition, Grounding Spells from the astral is no longer a thing.

Its still a thing in 3rd and the section on Astral Perception in my 'I going to properly read it one day' 4th Ed indicates it still is there. 5th I've no idea about

[DigoDragon]

I just got a hold of 5th, so I can probably look it up later, if I remember to. Still trying to wrap my head around the changes in hacking (GOD and all that kinda stuff). They way they brought back decks is interesting. Make hackers a bit more special again.

[Delta]

Its still a thing in 3rd and the section on Astral Perception in my 'I going to properly read it one day' 4th Ed indicates it still is there. 5th I've no idea about

Are you sure? My 3rd Ed books are boxed up in the back of the attic but I'm very sure "Grounding is dead!" was one of the inofficial taglines of SR3 back in the day.

[comicshorse]

Are you sure? My 3rd Ed books are boxed up in the back of the attic but I'm very sure "Grounding is dead!" was one of the inofficial taglines of SR3 back in the day.

SR 3rd Ed. p172
"While using astral perception, you can be affected by things on the astral plane as well. Other astral forms can engage you in astral combat or cast mana spells at you. "

[Lord Torath]

Are you sure? My 3rd Ed books are boxed up in the back of the attic but I'm very sure "Grounding is dead!" was one of the inofficial taglines of SR3 back in the day.
SR 3rd Ed. p172
"While using astral perception, you can be affected by things on the astral plane as well. Other astral forms can engage you in astral combat or cast mana spells at you. "Could you still ground spells through active foci in 3rd? I don't really know, as I'm not very familiar with, well, really anything other than 2nd Edition. Hmmm.... I seem to have an obsession with the second edition of things: Warhammer 40,000, AD&D, Shadowrun. On the other hand, I never played Diablo II, and I thought Homeworld II was pretty pathetic. So maybe it's just coincidence

[LibraryOgre]

SR 3rd Ed. p172
"While using astral perception, you can be affected by things on the astral plane as well. Other astral forms can engage you in astral combat or cast mana spells at you. "

That's not what grounding was.

Grounding was using that dual-natured creature to cast spells that had an effect in the real world.

If my astral self gets targeted by a Manaball cast from Astral Space, it only affects other things in astral space, not living creatures nearby.



The barrier between the physical and the astral planes is like an unbreakable pane of one-way glass. A spellcaster on the “physical plane” side of the glass, the opaque side, cannot see the other side (the astral plane). He can only affect targets on his side of the glass. A caster on the “astral plane” side of the glass—someone who is astral projecting—can see things on the other side of the glass but any spells he throws are blocked by the glass, the barrier between the planes. A dual being (such as a character using astral perception), exists on both sides of the glass simultaneously. He can see characters on both sides and attack any of them, but likewise can be attacked by any of them.

So, it used to be that if I was astrally active (Astrally Perceiving, carrying an active spell lock), someone in Astral Space could target that astral connection and drop a fireball that would explode in the "real" world. Did someone have an active Increase Reflexes spell lock? Then an enemy mage could MAKE EVERYTHING AROUND THEM EXPLODE. Starting in 3rd edition, that didn't happen. The enemy mage could take out the Increased Reflexes spell lock (it is an astral object they can attack), but couldn't do anything to the person themselves UNLESS they could see them in the physical world (either normally or via astral perception). Someone who is dual-natured can be attacked from either side, and can attack either side, but attacks originating from one can't resolve in the other.

[comicshorse]

That's not what grounding was.

Grounding was using that dual-natured creature to cast spells that had an effect in the real world.

If my astral self gets targeted by a Manaball cast from Astral Space, it only affects other things in astral space, not living creatures nearby.



So, it used to be that if I was astrally active (Astrally Perceiving, carrying an active spell lock), someone in Astral Space could target that astral connection and drop a fireball that would explode in the "real" world. Did someone have an active Increase Reflexes spell lock? Then an enemy mage could MAKE EVERYTHING AROUND THEM EXPLODE. Starting in 3rd edition, that didn't happen. The enemy mage could take out the Increased Reflexes spell lock (it is an astral object they can attack), but couldn't do anything to the person themselves UNLESS they could see them in the physical world (either normally or via astral perception). Someone who is dual-natured can be attacked from either side, and can attack either side, but attacks originating from one can't resolve in the other.

Oops :smalleek:
Yes I presumed, having extensively played 2nd ED., that area effect spells targeted on dual natured critters would 'ground' down into the real world like they used to

[Dimers]

Has any edition mentioned whether handheld laser weapons make noise when fired? I own 4e and Arsenal, but not Gun Haven, and not any other edition.

I'm thinking a sniper could do some serious mischief working silently with a laser, taking out security features and guards at 300 meters, no GSR or shell casings ...

[Blue Duke]

but a pretty impressive heat bloom and energy emission that can be tracked......

[Telok]

I'm thinking a sniper could do some serious mischief working silently with a laser, taking out security features and guards at 300 meters, no GSR or shell casings ...

It'll look like he's firing 100% tracers in IR generally, and probably thermal too from the beam heating the air. How many people in SR have IR/thermal vision?

[Pendragonx]

Hoi, deckheads .. Any of you have experience running games with Shadowrun 2050? What did you think of it?
( linky link (https://www.amazon.com/Shadowrun-2050-Catalyst-Hardcover/dp/1936876442) )
http://www.ludocortex.fr/boutique/images_produits/shadowrun-2050.jpg

[Dimers]

but a pretty impressive heat bloom and energy emission that can be tracked......


It'll look like he's firing 100% tracers in IR generally, and probably thermal too from the beam heating the air. How many people in SR have IR/thermal vision?

Good points, y'all. I'll look up how much lasers heat the air ... and you've given me another couple ideas about decoys. :smallamused: But you didn't see anything about noise from the weapon?

Who has heat vision: trolls, dwarves, some enhanced/equipped other people, a few critters, a few drones (it's not part of the standard package on 4e Arsenal page 105), a few security cameras (how often do you need a camera to see both heat and light? and how much are you willing to adjust your bottom line?). In the kind of run where silent sniping is useful, I'd guess at least 7% of the sensing people or objects. Probably no more than 20% in any reasonable instance. That just me spitballing, though.

[The Random NPC]

Good points, y'all. I'll look up how much lasers heat the air ... and you've given me another couple ideas about decoys. :smallamused: But you didn't see anything about noise from the weapon?

Who has heat vision: trolls, dwarves, some enhanced/equipped other people, a few critters, a few drones (it's not part of the standard package on 4e Arsenal page 105), a few security cameras (how often do you need a camera to see both heat and light? and how much are you willing to adjust your bottom line?). In the kind of run where silent sniping is useful, I'd guess at least 7% of the sensing people or objects. Probably no more than 20% in any reasonable instance. That just me spitballing, though.

Lasers heating the air is called thermal blooming. It's one of the reasons we don't have many laser weapons in real life. It's a nonlinear equation, which from what I can tell means that the answer varies wildly. Fun fact, the wind has a large affect on thermal blooming, which can cause the laser to bend towards the source of the wind.

[DigoDragon]

But you didn't see anything about noise from the weapon?

I don't recall anything in an SR book mentioning the sound/noise a laser weapon makes, so I've always assumed they make the same kind of high-pitch 'crackling' noise that a powerful laser in real life does when it's fired.

[Dimers]

I don't recall anything in an SR book mentioning the sound/noise a laser weapon makes, so I've always assumed they make the same kind of high-pitch 'crackling' noise that a powerful laser in real life does when it's fired.

Huh, learn something new every day!


Fun fact, the wind has a large affect on thermal blooming, which can cause the laser to bend towards the source of the wind.

Two new things if you're lucky! :smallbiggrin:

[DigoDragon]

Alright, I'm in an interesting debate with some other players on the topic of "expected response to a top secret facility".

--Background--
Our team was hired by a Mr. Johnson to travel deep into the Redmond Barrens to locate a specific individual and extract them for payment. The GM loves us because we don't ask too many questions of our Johnson, particularly why we're extracting someone from the slums. We drove out to the address and find a neighborhood that back in its heyday was probably a nice office park. Now it's just a bunch of decrepit buildings coming apart. It's pretty quiet out here, not counting the homeless drek that occasionally skitters in the shadows. Or the gangers. >.>

After a quick search of the building the address points us at, we found a hidden basement entrance into a well-stocked underground cybernetics lab. A very bloody, trashed, power is out and the emergency lights are flicking-okay-the-GM-needs-to-stop-playing-Alien:Isolation-because-he's-scaring-us kind of lab. :smallbiggrin:


--The Debate--
Ignoring the fact that all the lab techs have been eviscerated by something that is very likely still down here (:smalleek:), the debate was over how long until a response team from the corp that owns this place would get out here, and how big a team we should expect (If it matters, we're fairly sure it's Ares owned by some of the files we found on a laptop). The facility's power and communications are all down (wireless signals can't penetrate the thick walls, so we would have to go topside to access the matrix). If Ares tried calling this place, they won't get an answer. We estimate the disaster that struck here happened about 2 hours ago, give or take.

Half the team thinks Ares is gonna have a SWAT force here soon to lock the place down and shoot any of us on sight. The reasoning is that since this place is deep in barrens territory with few witnesses, they can afford an armed response team. The only witnesses are not credible (homeless bums and gangers), neither of which are in any position to tell any authority what they saw because they don't want trouble for themselves.

I'm on the other half that thinks because this is a secret lab, they'll only send a few covert ops here to check on the place, because even drunk hobos and gangers might see something and blab to a friend and that friend leaks it to the news media (and the media will wonder why Ares is out in the middle of nowhere, because saying "live-fire training exercise" only works so many times). Thus, we should expect a few deadly "ninjas" showing up and giving us a hard time. Or worse, they follow us to find out who we are and then strike us at one of our safe houses.

The GM hasn't said which is it. He rather likes that we're debating how long we might have (and we need to at least find and ID the body for the Johnson if nothing else). Curious if any of you had thoughts on what you would expect showing up.

[LibraryOgre]

Two hours? No power, no communications?

If they were GOING to show, they are there already.

Ares has enough resources that something like this happening could reasonably be dealt with quickly, and the question of "in force" or "covert" is one that highly depends on what's going on. I would expect that the first response from them would be covert, and quickly. Catastrophic loss of communication through the hardlines would be noted and responded to with a look-see... might be a technical problem, but you don't assume that. It might be a full on Ares strike team, it might be a squad of KE Security goons told to go check something out and report back.

Once they report back, or if they don't, Ares either
a) burns the site
b) sends people in to control it.

Both of which involve a fair amount of numbers.

[comicshorse]

To me this screams 'way off the books site where Ares is doing stuff even they are ashamed of'. As such I'm firmly of the opinion the response would be of the Ninja variety.
So there is a very decent chance they are already there, watching you and wondering what the hell you've got to do with this unholy mess. Of course what you'd better hope is that their superiors are curious enough about you to not decide to activate the bomb built into the shelter (of course there's a bomb ) and wipe out you and any evidence of the horrors they were up to :smallsmile:

Alternate theory : The extraction was of the chief scientist of this hell-hole and was paid for by himself. Expecting his rescuers he cut the communication lines with the parent corp. to give himself the maximum time to run.
A smart move, less smart was letting loss Project Nephilim as a further distraction

[Lord Torath]

I suppose the time frame matters. Are we talking 2050s? 2060s?

I'd expect a troubleshooting team of 4-5 NPCs (Rigger/Mage/Street Sam 1/Street Sam 2) with 10-15 grunts as back-up. They'll probably show up in a Mobmaster or several Patrol-Ones. Probably unmarked vehicles, with no one wearing badges on their armor. Possibly a not-visibly-armed helicopter to make a high-altitude Jellyfish drop (Condor or Condor II) a km or so away from the site to keep tabs on the surface without drawing too much attention.

If this was Aztechnology, they'd already have several Watcher Spirits onsite, with other back-up on the way (Speaking of, if you've got a mage/shaman on your team, summon up some astral surveillance for an early warning system). Ares doesn't strike me as particularly "stealthy" in their approach, and I wouldn't expect them to tail you home. That being said, assume they will, and take steps to throw off any pursuit.

I tend to agree with Mark, here. If it's been two hours, they've already come if they're coming. Ares should have response teams much closer than two hours away. If there were no mostly-empty vehicles at the surface, they are probably not coming. If they'd already sent a team (that was killed by the blood-elemental-animated dolls that only move when you're not looking), they'd leave one or two members up-top to report their progress back to HQ, and you'd have seen that during your approach.

But that's just us. More important is whether your GM has a habit of hitting you with brute force assaults or stealthy teams of assassins.

Edit: I suppose they could have some spotters hidden in nearby buildings (if there are any) to keep an eye on things. But they should have been in place within 15-20 minutes of Things Going Down.

[Telok]

Try taping a note to the door.
"Runner team on site for personell extraction. Found everyone dead and dismembered. Trying to ID body. Please confirm targets before shooting. Will talk for cash. If found half eaten, please inform next of kin."

Edit: Due to corp politics this may be a completely unapproved project. Communications and response may not have full corp resources. The person running the project may have to be circumspect about using corp resources. Instead of corp security you may see another runner team.

[Telwar]

I suppose the time frame matters. Are we talking 2050s? 2060s?

I'd expect a troubleshooting team of 4-5 NPCs (Rigger/Mage/Street Sam 1/Street Sam 2) with 10-15 grunts as back-up. They'll probably show up in a Mobmaster or several Patrol-Ones. Probably unmarked vehicles, with no one wearing badges on their armor. Possibly a not-visibly-armed helicopter to make a high-altitude Jellyfish drop (Condor or Condor II) a km or so away from the site to keep tabs on the surface without drawing too much attention.

If this was Aztechnology, they'd already have several Watcher Spirits onsite, with other back-up on the way (Speaking of, if you've got a mage/shaman on your team, summon up some astral surveillance for an early warning system). Ares doesn't strike me as particularly "stealthy" in their approach, and I wouldn't expect them to tail you home. That being said, assume they will, and take steps to throw off any pursuit.

I tend to agree with Mark, here. If it's been two hours, they've already come if they're coming. Ares should have response teams much closer than two hours away. If there were no mostly-empty vehicles at the surface, they are probably not coming. If they'd already sent a team (that was killed by the blood-elemental-animated dolls that only move when you're not looking), they'd leave one or two members up-top to report their progress back to HQ, and you'd have seen that during your approach.

But that's just us. More important is whether your GM has a habit of hitting you with brute force assaults or stealthy teams of assassins.

Edit: I suppose they could have some spotters hidden in nearby buildings (if there are any) to keep an eye on things. But they should have been in place within 15-20 minutes of Things Going Down.

...perhaps they're already on-site, and some of the splatter is them? Maybe there are survivors inside as possibly shaky allies against the wounded-but-not-dead xenomorph-analogue, who'll then turn on the PCs as they complete the extraction with the target somehow magically alive and no don't look too closely at the gift horse...

At this point, they may be on the third wave of response, which might well be attack ships with thermobaric warheads to obliterate the block, just as soon as they can manufacture a previously-unknown gas line that the locals were tapping to have it magically blow up...in case anyone asks, which they don't with Redmond, usually.

Definitely send some spirits and drones in. The spirit at least can come back a lot faster if it's not obliterated outright, and iirc you'll know it went down.

[DigoDragon]

Two hours? No power, no communications?

If they were GOING to show, they are there already.

The team hacker had said that there is no telling how often this facility checks in with a local office/superior outside the place. A secret facility might be fairly independent, and only checks in every couple hours. However, it would be best to assume that the corp office is both aware of a communication failure, and a response team was sent. Since we haven't met anyone yet, I am assuming the corp team is using stealth like we are to investigate.

The facility has an impressive size--we are aware of at least two "levels" to this facility and we're only just getting through the first level, which are mostly offices and living space.



To me this screams 'way off the books site where Ares is doing stuff even they are ashamed of'. As such I'm firmly of the opinion the response would be of the Ninja variety.
So there is a very decent chance they are already there, watching you and wondering what the hell you've got to do with this unholy mess. Of course what you'd better hope is that their superiors are curious enough about you to not decide to activate the bomb built into the shelter (of course there's a bomb ) and wipe out you and any evidence of the horrors they were up to :smallsmile:

Which goes along with Mark's response up there of "A) Burn the Site". Well so far we haven't seen anything to indicate this place could be blown up, but OOC, I'd not be surprised if there were such a system already armed down here. :smalleek:

Hopefully the fact we're not the 'grabby' type to steal everything not nailed down is seen as brownie points in the eyes of whoever might be observing us.



Alternate theory : The extraction was of the chief scientist of this hell-hole and was paid for by himself. Expecting his rescuers he cut the communication lines with the parent corp. to give himself the maximum time to run.

Huh. I hadn't thought of a deliberate sabotage. It's plausible, and the scientist would know a way to delay Ares from figuring out lines were down for some time to give the extraction team a window to pick them up.



I suppose the time frame matters. Are we talking 2050s? 2060s?

I'd expect a troubleshooting team of 4-5 NPCs (Rigger/Mage/Street Sam 1/Street Sam 2) with 10-15 grunts as back-up.

We're in the summer of 2070. Our team consists of--


Elf hacker (I suspect a Technomancer, but she's good at covering her tracks. She's always riding our back on security and "policing our brass")
Human combat mage (Moi. I'm the team healer, buffer, and the first one to get shot at because geek the mage first. The sarcasm is free)
Ork street sam (Our walking stealth armory. He's scary to watch when he gets in the zone and "quietly" snipes a target with a hand cannon)
Dwarf infiltrator (Our 4-foot darling murder-hobo. When she's sober, she's like a stealthy Belkar. When she's not sober... Belkar on a bad day)



If this was Aztechnology, they'd already have several Watcher Spirits onsite, with other back-up on the way (Speaking of, if you've got a mage/shaman on your team, summon up some astral surveillance for an early warning system). Ares doesn't strike me as particularly "stealthy" in their approach, and I wouldn't expect them to tail you home. That being said, assume they will, and take steps to throw off any pursuit.

Aye, I got an astral spirit watching our backs. Magical security seems to consist mostly of astral barriers, and (so far) two instances of a rune-like traps that set off an area stun spell to knock out intruders. Almost disabled the first one with my face. :smallredface:



But that's just us. More important is whether your GM has a habit of hitting you with brute force assaults or stealthy teams of assassins.

He leans toward the stealth. It helps encourage us to do the same rather than kick-in-the-door with our pink mohawks showing. ;)



Try taping a note to the door.
"Runner team on site for personell extraction. Found everyone dead and dismembered. Trying to ID body. Please confirm targets before shooting. Will talk for cash. If found half eaten, please inform next of kin."

Hee hee, that sounds like something our dwarf would do. I should recommend it. ^__^



Edit: Due to corp politics this may be a completely unapproved project. Communications and response may not have full corp resources. The person running the project may have to be circumspect about using corp resources. Instead of corp security you may see another runner team.

Unless we're the other runner and we're extracting the only resource the corp wants back before burning this place down?



...perhaps they're already on-site, and some of the splatter is them? Maybe there are survivors inside as possibly shaky allies against the wounded-but-not-dead xenomorph-analogue, who'll then turn on the PCs as they complete the extraction with the target somehow magically alive and no don't look too closely at the gift horse...

That... would be scary to deal with. But having a couple npc meat shields allies would be nice.



Definitely send some spirits and drones in. The spirit at least can come back a lot faster if it's not obliterated outright, and iirc you'll know it went down.

Yeah, we got it covered. Our SOP is to send in a little drone and a spirit into a room first and report back what they see. Then we go in and search for our target.

[DigoDragon]

Anyone curious to know how hard the drek hit the fan? :smallbiggrin:

Our team dove deeper in the facility, using the stairs, and eventually happened upon the actual cybernetic labs in basement level 4 (level 2 was utilities, though we didn't bother getting power back on and level 3 was storage, which we didn't get into much). These lab rooms were trashed hard and had several bodies smeared all over the walls. We found our extraction target as well, or rather what's left of him, locked in a small 'vault storage room'. Turns out he wasn't dead though! Just unconscious from severe blood loss due to stab wounds that made us think he had a bad run-in with Jason Voorhees. He was apparently a gutsy scientist too--left a datachip on his person addressed to "deniable assets".

Yeah, that would be us, wouldn't it?

The chip had just one file--a document showing a schematic of a communication box that was attached to the comm lines that exit this facility. The short version is that the box is designed to send Ares HQ a repeating packet of data to their computers, thus making it seem like the facility is online and doing fine after all the lines are cut. Downside is if anyone at Ares called this facility, or actually looked at the sent data, they'd know something is wrong. Our helpless little extraction target had apparently sabotaged the power here and cut the lines himself to make it easy on us to grab him in the chaos. Oookay, so that's possibly good news. We just have to hope no one at Ares felt like doing their job and looking at the data sent by the box. We stabilize our charge and proceed to get out. We got him, we've only had to deal with a few basic traps, getting to this point has actually not been that bad and we're making good time.

On the other hand, reason the walls were repainted with blood finally showed up.

You ever watch Robocop 2? There's a scene where OCP plays a video showing the results of what happened when they tried to make a better Robocop. Yeah, apparently this facility had the same idea.
And apparently they also had the same success rate. Two cyborgs show up (from different areas, but near the same time that the second joined combat a couple rounds after the first engaged). And when I say cyborgs, I mean like, full conversion chrome-domes who are probably little more than brains in a machine body suffering cyber-psychosis for having essences in the .00X range. :smalleek: They were pretty much just walking insanity, and they attacked us on sight.

Our hacker names them Murphy and Ed, because the first one was humanoid while the second was more like a... tank on legs. Murphy I suspect had some of his mental faculties intact, because after I start buffing the team defenses, he shoots me first and gets me good with his autopistol. The streetsam closes in and fills the cyborg's face with shotgun slugs and his right hook. The others do whatever damage they can. The hacker is the first to notice when Ed showed up, and that Ed... was carrying a machine gun. Here's where we really should have died because when things escalate, it's usually because we reach a point where we think explosives are a good idea.

Which explains why we have a combo move we call Chips and Salsa.

We coordinated our turns (holding actions) for this attack plan. The hacker keeps Murphy busy by messing with his smartgun system. The streetsam and infiltrator throw grenades at Ed (our streetsam brought a few because reasons). I then overcast a physical barrier between us and the grenades. When the frags detonate, Ed was basically standing in a 5-wall box with only one way the explosive shockwave could exit--through him. The chunky salsa effect makes quick work Ed (and my barrier). We're lightly toasted from the explosion, but no one dropped. I'm really close though.

We retreat from Murphy and find an alternate path to the stairs with our extraction. We beat feet up to the first level, but then complication number 2, 3, 4, and 5 show up. A four-man Ares Firewatch team had just arrived to investigate (uh oh). Now we play the stealth game, diving into offices and skulking around to avoid them. Thankfully running away from Murphy was the good plan, because that investigation team heard the cyborg before discovering us. They engage, we escape.

I'm sure they got this. Probably.

So! At the end of the run we bring our extraction to the Johnson. He'll have to get a street doc to patch the guy up, but the job didn't specify condition, so point in our court. We get paid and then head to a safehouse for a couple weeks of laying low and getting ourselves patched up. And of course our sneaky hacker got a hold of a few schematics of the cybernetic research done, so I suspect shes got 'paydata' to sell off. I'm sure that won't come back to bite us later. :smalltongue:

[comicshorse]

I feel so smug right now :smallcool:

[LibraryOgre]

Anyone curious to know how hard the drek hit the fan? :smallbiggrin:


That was awesome.

So, a question for the board, though: Has anyone else noticed that Shadowrun-specific slang seems to have dropped off in the books since the end of 2nd edition? Like, you're more likely to see duck than drag, if you move the initial letter of those words one letter to the right?

[Dimers]

Has anyone else noticed that Shadowrun-specific slang seems to have dropped off in the books since the end of 2nd edition? Like, you're more likely to see duck than drag, if you move the initial letter of those words one letter to the right?

Yyyyup. Even worse in the splatbooks (for 4e at least).

[DigoDragon]

I feel so smug right now :smallcool:

Well you were pretty much on the ball there. :D



So, a question for the board, though: Has anyone else noticed that Shadowrun-specific slang seems to have dropped off in the books since the end of 2nd edition? Like, you're more likely to see duck than drag, if you move the initial letter of those words one letter to the right?

Yeah, I miss the slang in the newer books. That was one of the best parts of the books. It just adds something important to the setting immersion.

[Telok]

That's pretty much the definition of a good run. For the players, if not for the characters.

Chips and Salsa is a good trick, makes me with I'd thought of it. It reminds me of our group's slap-bang.

[LibraryOgre]

So, in a few issues of Knights of the Dinner Table, the GM, BA starts enforcing the rule that you can only say a couple of words during combat without it taking your action. The players respond by coming up with what they call the "Player Advantage Codes"... two-word phrases to communicate common battle tactics. Really, it's a great idea, and something I can see a group coming up with, especially if they work together a lot... and I assume a lot of groups think their characters have such a code, but don't bother to write it up.

One of those codes, though, was "Chunky Salsa", which was "Watch out for the fireball... and throw that annoying NPC in there, too."

[druid91]

So. Looking into 4e mage builds.

Is channeling combined with an ally spirit as insane as it looks? Yeah it costs 8 karma per point of force. But when channeling you use its magic stat and add it's force to your physical stats and gain double it's force in hardened armor and get to use it's spirit powers...

All while basically looking like a normal dude.

[DigoDragon]

Chips and Salsa is a good trick, makes me with I'd thought of it. It reminds me of our group's slap-bang.

The important parts of the trick are to get turn order correct and for the mage to put up a really good physical barrier so that the shock-wave doesn't blow back at the party. We've had a couple messy executions of that trick. :smallredface:



So, in a few issues of Knights of the Dinner Table, the GM, BA starts enforcing the rule that you can only say a couple of words during combat without it taking your action. The players respond by coming up with what they call the "Player Advantage Codes"... two-word phrases to communicate common battle tactics. Really, it's a great idea, and something I can see a group coming up with, especially if they work together a lot... and I assume a lot of groups think their characters have such a code, but don't bother to write it up.

Speaking in combat is one of those really varied kind of things. The current GM for the core-only 3.5 game I'm in limits speech to just two sentences a round as a Free action. Any more and you have to use up a move-equivalent action.



Is channeling combined with an ally spirit as insane as it looks? Yeah it costs 8 karma per point of force. But when channeling you use its magic stat and add it's force to your physical stats and gain double it's force in hardened armor and get to use it's spirit powers...

All while basically looking like a normal dude.

Huh. I don't think anyone in my groups have tried that. A quick google search for this topic seems to make it a debatable tactic. The 'against' side says you need to choose to channel a spirit at the time of summoning and channeled spirits cannot be bound, while the 'for' side says that doing this makes you permanently dual-natured and you have to share your action pool with the spirit (plus, real expensive tactic as you mentioned). Maybe it's a GM call?

I'll have to get to my books tonight and read the rules to see for myself.

[Guran]

Last month I started my first Shadowrun campaign (5e) with some friends. The campaign is set in London and they received their very first big run. During the first session our decker went on a streak of luck and basically stole loads of company secrets (they are targetting a bioware company). His luck ended when he tried to get to the information he actually needed and he quickly got out with his tail between his legs.
So back in the real world he tried to sell this information. He gave it to his fixer - who is still a young and upstart fixer with little experience but big dreams who has a connections of 1 and loyalty of 3 - hoping that she could get him some nuyen.

Now what would be a fair way to decide what happens to the stolen company secrets and the fixer? How do you guys usually make that decision? Do you roll for it or do you just decide on something?

[LibraryOgre]

Last month I started my first Shadowrun campaign (5e) with some friends. The campaign is set in London and they received their very first big run. During the first session our decker went on a streak of luck and basically stole loads of company secrets (they are targetting a bioware company). His luck ended when he tried to get to the information he actually needed and he quickly got out with his tail between his legs.
So back in the real world he tried to sell this information. He gave it to his fixer - who is still a young and upstart fixer with little experience but big dreams who has a connections of 1 and loyalty of 3 - hoping that she could get him some nuyen.

Now what would be a fair way to decide what happens to the stolen company secrets and the fixer? How do you guys usually make that decision? Do you roll for it or do you just decide on something?

I'd start making **** up. ;-)

So, figure out who is investigating this for the Company. Give them an Investigation rating, based on some skill or another of theirs. To that, add the Fixer's connection rating (they make big waves if they have big connections), but subtract the fixer's Loyalty rating (their big friends keep the waves down). Add some arbitrary numbers for various things (how important the secrets were, how much they're worth, etc).

Roll the resulting dice pool. Count the hits.

[Misereor]

Meh...

I need some advice.
We started playing a 5th ed. campaign some time ago (I'm the GM), and it started off pretty well.
Unfortunately, once my players got a hang of the rules, the power gamer in the group created a new combat monster character.
This was fine by me, except that all the other characters then felt useless in combat and created their own combat monster characters.
The result is that a year into the campaign the mage of the party, who is the only one who didn't create a new character, is the only one capable of performing any non-combat tasks.
She is the face, the infiltrator, the manipulator, the information gathering specialist, but not really comparable to the rest of the party when in combat.

So far I've let it slide and let the dice fall where they may, hoping that would wake them up.
They are incapable of making any excellent negotiation tests, so they make less money from contracts, and they make lousy first impressions on Johnsons.
They are incapable of stealthing an entire run, so they usually lose any low-profile bonuses.
They don't have many or high quality contacts, so they are mostly incapable of getting better gear than what they started with.
They are not very good at collecting information, so they usually miss important stuff, making even their succesful runs half-assed efforts.
They have no matrix capability, so they just brute force. Successfully thus far only because they haven't run into anything really serious and they don't mind murdering prodigous amounts of wage-slaves to make a quick getaway.

The players are reasonably smart, even if their characters aren't, so they have been able to scrape by thus far,
I'm setting the next run up to be low-profile, meaning no pay if they blow anything up, but I fear that it won't be enough to get them to reasess the situation.

I feel like the entire campaign is beginning to skate on thin ice. Does anyone have some ideas that could help us out?

[Lacco]

Blackjack's Guide to Bitter Gamemastering?

Or just overall Blackjack's Guide to Shadowrun :smallsmile:

[Floret]

Meh...

I need some advice.
We started playing a 5th ed. campaign some time ago (I'm the GM), and it started off pretty well.
Unfortunately, once my players got a hang of the rules, the power gamer in the group created a new combat monster character.
This was fine by me, except that all the other characters then felt useless in combat and created their own combat monster characters.
The result is that a year into the campaign the mage of the party, who is the only one who didn't create a new character, is the only one capable of performing any non-combat tasks.
She is the face, the infiltrator, the manipulator, the information gathering specialist, but not really comparable to the rest of the party when in combat.

So far I've let it slide and let the dice fall where they may, hoping that would wake them up.
They are incapable of making any excellent negotiation tests, so they make less money from contracts, and they make lousy first impressions on Johnsons.
They are incapable of stealthing an entire run, so they usually lose any low-profile bonuses.
They don't have many or high quality contacts, so they are mostly incapable of getting better gear than what they started with.
They are not very good at collecting information, so they usually miss important stuff, making even their succesful runs half-assed efforts.
They have no matrix capability, so they just brute force. Successfully thus far only because they haven't run into anything really serious and they don't mind murdering prodigous amounts of wage-slaves to make a quick getaway.

The players are reasonably smart, even if their characters aren't, so they have been able to scrape by thus far,
I'm setting the next run up to be low-profile, meaning no pay if they blow anything up, but I fear that it won't be enough to get them to reasess the situation.

I feel like the entire campaign is beginning to skate on thin ice. Does anyone have some ideas that could help us out?

Well. Seems like your players want something different out of this game than you do.
Or, at least all of them who jumped at the opportunity to create combat monsters. Because, really, if they did that, then probably because that's what they have fun playing...

As for ideas on how to handle this?
Talk to them. Suggest building a more balanced team, discuss the problem, tell them that your fun is being limited by their style of play (At least, it sounds like it is). Maybe even allow them to create their new replacement characters with just as much Karma on top of the regular as they have earned so far - that makes letting go a lot easier (And maybe allow the mage to respec a bit, otherwise She'll end up utterly screwed).
If the thing attracting them is not combat, but minmaxing, maybe try looking up and suggesting how you can minmax other areas of the game. The resident minmaxer in my game has a Face/social infiltrator (Mundane, cause "An adept would be too easy"). And those are some rather impressive dicepools going on there... (Not to mention the fact of rolling two pools, against different limits, summing up the successes, and having the enemy roll against that result with one single pool is just mean.)
With the right Chrome, or even the sweetspot between chroming up and using the rest of the magic left in you, lots of things are possible to minmax than just combat.

If the result is not "okay, let's try something different"... well. Maybe you need other players. I mean, that sucks, but if playstyles diverge so drastically, one of you is gonna end up not enjoying their time.
Or, alternatively, go for a different style of campaign where their style shines. Maybe a desert wars style thing. Or Combat ops in one of the many places needing mercenaries.

[DigoDragon]

They are incapable of making any excellent negotiation tests, so they make less money from contracts, and they make lousy first impressions on Johnsons.
They are incapable of stealthing an entire run, so they usually lose any low-profile bonuses.
They don't have many or high quality contacts, so they are mostly incapable of getting better gear than what they started with.
They are not very good at collecting information, so they usually miss important stuff, making even their succesful runs half-assed efforts.
They have no matrix capability, so they just brute force. Successfully thus far only because they haven't run into anything really serious and they don't mind murdering prodigous amounts of wage-slaves to make a quick getaway.

I think maybe you should talk with them out of the game and bring this up. Combat shouldn't be a major aspect of Shadowrun, unless that's what they really want out of it. I'd discuss expectations and see if maybe they're thinking something on a different page than you.

[TheTeaMustFlow]

Combat shouldn't be a major aspect of Shadowrun

Citation Needed. Dedicating the second-longest chapter in the corebook to combat alone, plus all the purely-combat related stuff in the other chapters, not to mention the freaking front cover, seems pretty indicative of a major aspect.

[LibraryOgre]

Change the nature of the campaign.

They're combat monsters? Start sticking them in warzones. Their fixers aren't going to offer them a quiet job unless the Johnson WANTS them to frag it up (don't have to pay if they screw everything up, even if screwing everything up was the secret objective). "We need you to extract this person from Chicago. We don't really care about collateral damage." "Here's some linguasofts for Farsi. Your job is to go blow up Iran. Watch out for the sirrush!"

If your team is full of blunt objects, find them a nail. Continuing to use them for surgery is going to result in broken limbs and shattered dreams of being a pianist.

[Misereor]

Well. Seems like your players want something different out of this game than you do.
Or, at least all of them who jumped at the opportunity to create combat monsters. Because, really, if they did that, then probably because that's what they have fun playing...

As for ideas on how to handle this?
Talk to them. Suggest building a more balanced team, discuss the problem, tell them that your fun is being limited by their style of play (At least, it sounds like it is). Maybe even allow them to create their new replacement characters with just as much Karma on top of the regular as they have earned so far - that makes letting go a lot easier (And maybe allow the mage to respec a bit, otherwise She'll end up utterly screwed).

I did. They created more combat monsters. :smallbiggrin:
I haven't got a clue why they're sofocused on their combat abilities. The only two fatalitites we've had was when they met their first toxic spirit, and when one of them critically glitched a demolitions test. My fun has mostly been about them experiencing the awesomeness of the Sixth World. None of them are very familiar with canon, so I started them off in 2050, and we're just about up to the Universal Brotherhood storyline. I suppose I could use their combat-mindedness for an all out bug hunt scenario.

I guess I'll ask them what kind of campaign they want to play. I don't mind playing a merc type campaign, it's just annoying to play a "normal" campaign with their current characters.

Thanks for your thoughts, everyone.

[Telok]

I've run into this sort of thing in other games. Usually it's people who mostly only play the last three editions of D&D who go "combat, combat, combat, what's negotiation? I've got a gun!". It either takes them a few sessions to discover that combat isn't the majority of the game or they get really confused and just sort of flounder around until you talk to them.

Suggestion: If it's their first SR game and they've only ever done hack and slash D&D before talk to them about the tone of the game and the setting. Point them at media (probably heist movies) that's similar to what you're trying to do. If they really want an all gun-bunnies game then you can go ahead and give it to them. Just warn them that it's going to be pretty high casualty rates, because guns.

[DigoDragon]

Citation Needed. Dedicating the second-longest chapter in the corebook to combat alone, plus all the purely-combat related stuff in the other chapters, not to mention the freaking front cover, seems pretty indicative of a major aspect.

Meh, fine. Combat shouldn't be a major aspect of Shadowrun in my opinion. :smalltongue:

The rule I follow is that the law is going to expend an amount of resources to hunt the PCs down proportional to the body count times the collateral damage left behind. :3

[Lord Torath]

Meh, fine. Combat shouldn't be a major aspect of Shadowrun in my opinion. :smalltongue:

The rule I follow is that the law is going to expend an amount of resources to hunt the PCs down proportional to the body count times the collateral damage left behind. :3I've always been in favor of making heavy use of Narcojet ammo and Stunbolt/Stuncloud spells, combined with hijacking the security system. :smallbiggrin:

You do need the occasional Powerbolt for dealing with the odd drone, but on living targets, usually either Body or Willpower is low enough for non-lethal methods to be effective. Concussion grenades are also useful, but you still need to be careful: We once killed two people in a small space (with reinforced walls and door) with a pair of concussion grenades and the Chunky Salsa effect. (We didn't feel too badly, though, as they'd tried to assassinate us several times without cause. Stupid double-crosses!)

[LibraryOgre]

I've always been in favor of making heavy use of Narcojet ammo and Stunbolt/Stuncloud spells, combined with hijacking the security system. :smallbiggrin:

You do need the occasional Powerbolt for dealing with the odd drone, but on living targets, usually either Body or Willpower is low enough for non-lethal methods to be effective. Concussion grenades are also useful, but you still need to be careful: We once killed two people in a small space (with reinforced walls and door) with a pair of concussion grenades and the Chunky Salsa effect. (We didn't feel too badly, though, as they'd tried to assassinate us several times without cause. Stupid double-crosses!)

I made an adept once who used stun batons... with surprise, I would frequently get enough successes to kill someone with them.

[Lord Torath]

That was generally not a problem in 2E, unless your GM decided to use the over-damage rules from the Shadowrun Companion. We opted not to. But yeah, our PhyAd really loved those stun-batons as well. Our rigger had a taser mounted on her combat drone, in addition to the twin sniper rifles - one loaded with explosive rounds and the other loaded with Gel rounds.

[comicshorse]

I've always been in favor of making heavy use of Narcojet ammo and Stunbolt/Stuncloud spells, combined with hijacking the security system. :smallbiggrin:



Yeah in a game one of the P.C.s played a pacificst ( but not too bright) Ork Shaman who was such a useful, self sacrificing 'Runner we went non-lethal to keep him part of the group *. Between stun spells, gel rounds and narcojet we were able to make our jobs pretty much entirely non-lethal

* Unless the job specifically called for it in which case we lied through our teeth
" So know we set up the camera to film the drug lords house "
BOOOOOOOM
"Oh my the house mysteriously blew up. What a strange coincidence. "

[DigoDragon]

My dog shaman accidentally killed someone with an over-cast stunbolt spell.


I once ran a mission where the PCs were hired to help a Johnson fake his own death. The PCs figured it's fake wetwork so sure, why not? They stake out the hotel where the Johnson was to give a speech at a conference, set up their plan, the sniper nest, their getaway vehicle, and a safehouse. They tell the Johnson their setup, outfitting him with blood packs to make the sniper shots look realistic and donning their own disguises of hotel staff and security. The Johnson tells them he'll arrange what happens after his "death" with another team. Doesn't tell the PCs what that arrangement is because they don't need to know. Their job is just ensure the Johnson looks dead and then disappear.

Well, funny thing about that...

See, the Johnson hired a second runner team to impersonate a Doc Wagon response unit to claim him for the hospital (but of course they actually will be driving him to the airport so he can catch a flight out of the country). After the PCs "assassinate" their Johnson, they decided to stick around rather than leave. And then they saw the Doc Wagon unit. And then they panicked that those med tech were gonna figure out that the Johnson was faking his death. And the PCs wanted to ensure the Johnson didn't go to jail so that they could get paid.

So the PCs attack "Doc Wagon", which confuses the hell out of the convention because they're still wearing their hotel disguises, and the second team defends themselves and their Johnson. And this isn't like, kid-gloves stick-n-shock and gel rounds kind of fighting. The PCs are committed to kill mode here; half the team manage to torch the Doc Wagon ambulance (which was a legit borrowed vehicle mind you, so when the oxygen tank ruptured, it went up spectacularly in flames), kill part of the medical team, injure a few bystandards, and one PC managed to lob a grenade into the elevator that the two remaining "Doc Wagon" medics went into with the Johnson. Just the door closes.

Let me repeat that last part.

One PC. Managed to throw a high-explosive grenade. In, past the closing elevator doors. Where their Johnson was.

Long story short (too late), the PCs didn't get paid and they had to leave town for about six months until the heat died down. :smalltongue: I think the insult to injury came many sessions later when a group of terrorists tried to hire them for their expertise in causing collateral. The PCs (smartly) declined a meeting. XD

[Corsair14]

Anyone ever try to run a long term Bug City campaign in the ruins of Chicago?

[Dimers]

:smalleek: That seems like it'd be very combat-heavy. And/or "tainted".

Haven't tried it, no ... I've been subconsciously assuming that what Shadowrun players enjoy most is the setting, which Chicago would not provide. It's too different from the rest of the world. Maybe I should reconsider.

[Corsair14]

Burning Bright was by far my favorite SR novel. If I ever get around to running another SR campaign I think I will make it a run up to the bug takeover. Maybe have the PCs doing a parallel investigation around the country and maybe a quick trip to Columbia then end up in Chicago when it goes down and have them try and survive and get out.

[TeChameleon]

Towards the tail end of 4e (2072-ish?), Chicago is a surprisingly busy place- while I didn't do a long-term campaign there (or a long-term campaign at all :smallfrown:), a significant chunk of the campaign I did run ended up being there, complete with blood-spirit-animated dolls that only moved when you weren't looking (you have no idea how happy it made me when Lord Torath made that offhand comment last page...), and I ended up doing a lot of reading about Chicago in preparation for it, since I had no idea how my players were going to proceed.

I'd say that you could probably maintain a fairly respectable chunk of the 'standard' Shadowrun flavour there, with a significant overlay of survival-horror, courtesy of the bugs and all the wonderful things the megacorps are trying to do with them. And the roving female biker gang of mantis spirits :smalleek:

To put it another way- Chicago may have been blown to h-e-double-hockey-sticks and gone, but a minor incident like that will barely slow the power players in the sixth world down- the megacorps and the dragons were jockeying for position before the rubble stopped bouncing.

[Lord Torath]

Towards the tail end of 4e (2072-ish?), Chicago is a surprisingly busy place- while I didn't do a long-term campaign there (or a long-term campaign at all :smallfrown:), a significant chunk of the campaign I did run ended up being there, complete with blood-spirit-animated dolls that only moved when you weren't looking (you have no idea how happy it made me when Lord Torath made that offhand comment last page...), and I ended up doing a lot of reading about Chicago in preparation for it, since I had no idea how my players were going to proceed.What can I say? It made quite the impression when you first shared that story! :smalleek:

[Corsair14]

Reading this thread has me nostalgic for SR now. I played a disastrous game of 4th about 10 years where the players so over thought and took time planning the heist and arguing in their safe house it literally put me(the GM) to sleep. Before that my experience was with 1st and 2nd edition which were so much better played. So I have a few questions.
I was thinking of basing my players locally here in FL and perhaps some runs to the Caribbean. One of my early missions I have bare bones bullet pointed in my brief campaign outline is a item extraction on a freighter moving up the coast for delivery to one of the bandit kings in the Caribbean. Then slowly working my way through the campaign to a Bug city kind of thing in the Orlando megaplex pretending the original didn't happen. My players know nothing of shadowrun and shadowrun lore. Ill probably have The Big Mouse and his megacorp play a role too. Disney might as well be a mega corp now, biggest non federal employer in the country, owns multiple TV channels, movie studios, commercial interests, and of course the most famous theme parks in the world.
Now
-Is there any real info on the Confederated States or FL in any of the books?
-Which edition? I have read good reviews of 5th ed. 4th was too flipping complex I think. Granted I have a lot of books on 4th but mostly informational and not rules. I love Feral cities and War!

-Trying to avoid the mountain of books and rules everywhere issue, in addition to keeping hackers and matrix activity as an NPC thing, which books do I need? I limit the matrix thing as I really dislike having to plan out a whole different world which is nothing but dice rolling over and over that only one PC might ever see and have to run that while everyone else twiddles their thumbs. So I what are the best say three books for magic, guns, cyberware, and I assume there is a riggers handbook? Is there a players book for 5th yet that has the different meta-human races, giants gnomes, minotaurs?

[DigoDragon]

There's not much in any of the 4e books I know on Florida, but making the "Mouse Corp" into a mega for Shadowrun isn't far fetched. A thing a lot of folks don't realize is that much of their land is incorporated with all the statuses of a city (Celebration, Disney Springs, etc). If you're arrested by an office in the park, that's a city police officer. It's about as close to real world extraterritoriality that I can think of. :smalltongue:

[Corsair14]

That just means I can wing it. Aside from the core of downtown Orlando inside the 417 with be the sprawl, the Disney Archologies who finally got around to doming the theme parks, they have been wanting to do that for years but just isnt technically feasible yet, new Orlando will be east of Kissimmee in the Deseret Megacity(check their 100 year plan, they want to supplant Orlando). Info can be from any edition really. Stats are easy to make up as long as you have the info available.

[Telwar]

The 4e supplement Dirty Tricks (the political book) had a general overview of the UCAS and CAS. I don't remember a lot on Florida, but remember the southern tip (Miami on down) is part of the Carib League, but that may have changed by 5e, there were noises being made about that in 4e.

Conspiracy Theories (my absolute favorite 4e book) had a good write-up of Washington DC. I am mostly amused by (as mentioned in a previous incarnation of this thread) my neighborhood being rendered uninhabitable by a bioweapon.

I *think* I remember Disney being mentioned as an A- or AA-rated corp. Even those have extraterritoriality, and non-AAAs can still be huge players in local markets.

[TeChameleon]

Heh... y'know, it's not really hard to imagine Disney and Horizon fighting a decades-long shadow war as Horizon tries to get at all those juicy Disney IPs and the legendary theme parks, etc. Although, in Shadowrun, you just know that the secret head of Disney would be Uncle Walt's thawed... er, head attached to a cyborg body...

[huttj509]

This seems like a basic question, but hey.

Played SR3 15 years ago. New to SR5. Trying to internalize the mechanics in character creation.

At character creation, what levels of {skill+attribute} would you consider indicative of:

Specialized
Good
Adequate
Not Bad
Inept

As an example, if I want to make a Decker who's specialized in computer stuff, but also adequate (or at least not bad) with machine pistols, what sort of numbers would you consider acceptable?

Not looking for a full build, just trying to shape things mentally.

[Misereor]

I guess I'll ask them what kind of campaign they want to play. I don't mind playing a merc type campaign, it's just annoying to play a "normal" campaign with their current characters.


I'll be damned...
Turns out my players are paranoid about me killing them, and they were not creating combat monsters but "capable of surviving an ambush" monsters.

They're right to be paranoid of course. It's Shadowrun after all, and in my estimation they're nowhere near paranoid compared to the average runner.
Not that I randomly spring ambushes on them. If the scenario calls for one, sure I'll do it, but never for no reason.
But being prepared for faulty info, double-dealing Johnsons, or security leaks is a big part of the SR flavor. As is the fact that the standard SR flavor template must on occasion be broken, just to keep the players on their toes. Noone has actually been killed in an ambush, but apparently the tension was a bit high the tmies they've been subjected to them.

Maybe it's because they're green at SR.
My first SR GM always let us do the legwork, then decided what opposing mesures there were, and if we succeeded. I hated that.
I hated it so much, that I always decide on measures first (varying depending on the antagonists and circumstances), and if the players can outhink them then good for them, even if I made a unrealistic boneheaded mistake I could easily retroactively correct without them noticing (I mostly write them off as bureaucratic screwups). It also means that I'm willing to let the dice fall where they may, most of the time.

Hmm... I should probably try to explain to them, that their lack of legwork skills makes it all the more probable that they run into ambushes, but I doubt that would make them happy. It doesn't provede an out for their perceived problem. We've been playing D&D since the 80's, so I'm guessing they are having a harder time time adjusting to the setting than I thought.

Maybe they need a run template.
I actually started the campaign by handing them all a copy of Blackjacks "Shadowrun 101 - A Basic Run (And How To Not Screw It Up).", but in hindsight it was probably too humerous for them to take to heart the points of that guide.

Ok, I have an idea and I need some more input.
I'm now considering an NPC who helps them with a couple of missions, who has his own run template.
This will annoy the players because it is obvious GM fiat, so the template should be made idiosyncratic to the NPC in question.
It should also be slighty flawed in a number of ways that the players can recognize --not too obviously though-- and improve on, and so gain a sense of acomplishment from. (Carrots for the masses.)
Furthermore, the NPC should be made annoying, so that they don't bother scrutinzing that they are actually learning anything from it.
Maybe even someone who eventually turns out to be a badguy which they can kill off at the end of a story arc.

What else could I do?

[TeChameleon]

Dunno if this will work with your players, but one thought I had was a bit of an expansion on the 'annoying NPC showing them the ropes'- if your players have a toy that they really want, perhaps a run opens up that would provide it, but the Johnson basically flat-out tells them they don't have all the skills he needs, so they get saddled with Jerky McTrainingwheels to handle the stuff they can't do, and they're basically glorified bodyguards for the jerk?

Basically, it gives you a character mouthpiece to deliver the bad news to them, and since it's a Johnson that they're only working with because he has something they want, they don't need to like the guy. Maybe even let them try on their own first to get whatever toy it is they want (robbing an R&D complex, maybe?) in such a way that their lack of legwork will blow up in their face- which is maybe how they came to the Johnson's attention in the first place; he wanted something else from the same R&D complex, so figures that some muscle-type disposable assets added to Jerky McTrainingwheels' legwork skills are just what the Street Doc ordered?

And you never know- your n00b runners may end up taking a weird shine to Jerky McTrainingwheels... odder things have happened :smalltongue:

[DigoDragon]

That just means I can wing it. Aside from the core of downtown Orlando inside the 417 with be the sprawl

I wonder if the 408/I-4 area will have kicked out the riffraff and upgraded to some fancy housing arcology project (Im' sure the Millenial area would be thrilled to do that to us). It's kinda sprawl right now, so... either someone buys it up and fixes it or it gets forgotten. I could see it go either way.



new Orlando will be east of Kissimmee in the Deseret Megacity(check their 100 year plan, they want to supplant Orlando).

I don't imagine old Orlando would have gone quietly with that plan? What becomes of old Orlando?

Also, 50 nuyen that the Orlando Eyesore is *still* unfinished. :smalltongue:

[Corsair14]

HAHA, now that you mention it, yes it is still there and still unfinished.

I was thinking aside from the towers in downtown ORL, most everything inside of the 417 loop is the sprawl. Baldwin park will be orc town. Going to have the areas around Fullsail be devastated by some sort of magical experiment gone bad.

Orange and Osceola counties approved of the Deseret plan either last year or the year before. It will all be east and south of the current Sun city project south of 528. Supposedly an environmentally sustainable city. 250K+ acres to work with, they might be able to pull it off. So yeah I see it happening. I am quite sure part of that giant medical park by Lake Nona is investment for the future based off the Deseret plan. They are about to start building a completely new hospital there to add to the 3 or 4 and the research facilities that are already there.

[Lord Torath]

What else could I do?I've always been in favor of cancelling a session in favor of "Movie Night" featuring Sneakers (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0105435/). Lots of legwork in that movie.

I also like the idea of Jerky McTrainingwheels though. "No, chummer, we're not going to just charge in! We're going to spend a week talking to our contacts and investigating the place before we even approach the back door! What do you mean "What back door?"!!! You've been slotting way too many BTLs! That's why I'm in charge, and you're the bullet catchers." <disgusted sigh>

[Misereor]

I've always been in favor of cancelling a session in favor of "Movie Night" featuring Sneakers (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0105435/). Lots of legwork in that movie.

I actually created a Shadowrun movie list some time back when setting up the campaign, but I never got around to handing it over to the players.
Sneakers was on it. So was Heat which I know they all like, and more importantly Ronin (lots of legwork and planning, then we blow everything up with grenade launchers. Classical SR! :smallbiggrin:)

[DigoDragon]

HAHA, now that you mention it, yes it is still there and still unfinished.

Yeah, it's become something of an unintended icon. :3



I was thinking aside from the towers in downtown ORL, most everything inside of the 417 loop is the sprawl. Baldwin park will be orc town. Going to have the areas around Fullsail be devastated by some sort of magical experiment gone bad.

Hee hee, Baldwin Park gone that far down the tubes? Yeah I could see it. That inner-loop area grows too fast and is just one economic bubble burst away from another catastrophe. Perfect recipe for a sprawl, and Baldwin is somewhat closed off the way it's designed. Easy to just wall it off into Ork town. I like the idea.



Orange and Osceola counties approved of the Deseret plan either last year or the year before. It will all be east and south of the current Sun city project south of 528. Supposedly an environmentally sustainable city. 250K+ acres to work with, they might be able to pull it off. So yeah I see it happening. I am quite sure part of that giant medical park by Lake Nona is investment for the future based off the Deseret plan. They are about to start building a completely new hospital there to add to the 3 or 4 and the research facilities that are already there.

Yeah, looks like it was 2 years ago. Intriguing, and ambitious if they're targeting a population of half a mil within 50 years. Should be interesting to see if the demand meets the expectation.



I actually created a Shadowrun movie list some time back when setting up the campaign, but I never got around to handing it over to the players.
Sneakers was on it. So was Heat which I know they all like, and more importantly Ronin (lots of legwork and planning, then we blow everything up with grenade launchers. Classical SR! :smallbiggrin:)

Good recommends, I'll agree with them. ^__^

[LibraryOgre]

I actually created a Shadowrun movie list some time back when setting up the campaign, but I never got around to handing it over to the players.
Sneakers was on it. So was Heat which I know they all like, and more importantly Ronin (lots of legwork and planning, then we blow everything up with grenade launchers. Classical SR! :smallbiggrin:)

Though it is very silly, I also suggest Hudson Hawk. Hudson Hawk is your typical Shadowrun game. It even has an orc (his name is Butterfinger)!

[druid91]

Y'know. Ever get that feeling where you find an awesome trick/combo but you also don't want to deploy it in a game because it would smash the game over your knee?

I just found one. Energy Drain on an Ally spirit with the Possesssion power. Use to drain Force out of Magic Lodges. For a paltry 500 Nuyen per point of force...

Well. Let's just say Godhood doesn't actually look that far off. I am definitely going to try to find a way to integrate this into my Dragon Slayer build.

[Misereor]

Though it is very silly, I also suggest Hudson Hawk. Hudson Hawk is your typical Shadowrun game. It even has an orc (his name is Butterfinger)!

Come to think of it, pretty much anything involving Bruce Willis could probably be added to that list. (Including his divorce from Demi Moore.)


@topic
I think I'm gonna use a combination of Jerkface McTrainingwheels and Evil Johnson(tm).
Someone who hires them as accomplices and manages what they are supposed to do.

I also have just the guy for them.
They just met him, and are presently involved with his merry band of eco-terrorists in stealing a bunch of chemical weapons from an old US Army depot that was lost in the confusion surrounding the awakening, in order to keep them out of the hands of Ares. I planned to have him recur for a job where they would steal the recipe for a new type of fertilizer from Aztechnology, that they are keeping from the starving peoples of the world, and eventually a job for a type of fire retardent paint invented by Krupp Chemicals that due to patenting is too expensive for low-income housing.

Of course it will eventually turn out that the chemical weapons are used in the Yucatan, the fertilizer will turn out to damage agricultural soil all over the world after amazing initial yields, and the (now tampered with) fire retardent paint will turn out to be the main cause behind a blaze destroying a rather expensive cruise ship. All extremely well paid atrocities, courtesy of Jerkface. It's Shadowrun after all.

But until then, he will be more than happy to manage their heists, ensuring they are properly executed by someone other than himself.
(And if they ever catch up to him, he will have a run ready for them to take down his fall guy, which will probably also end up with him getting a nice paycheck.)

[DigoDragon]

Y'know. Ever get that feeling where you find an awesome trick/combo but you also don't want to deploy it in a game because it would smash the game over your knee?

Yes, and I always listen to that feeling because when you deploy something like that, it's gonna escalate quickly and generally in the end no one wins. :smallwink:

So what will you do when you achieve godhood?

[druid91]

Yes, and I always listen to that feeling because when you deploy something like that, it's gonna escalate quickly and generally in the end no one wins. :smallwink:

So what will you do when you achieve godhood?

I was thinking about using the Endowment power to create D&D style clerics.

Shazam. You are now an ordained priest of Runnerism. Enjoy your immunity to bullets and glitches. Along with your ability to create holy weapons that can murder buildings. And innate ability to counterspell.

[TeChameleon]

I was thinking about using the Endowment power to create D&D style clerics.

Shazam. You are now an ordained priest of Runnerism. Enjoy your immunity to bullets and glitches. Along with your ability to create holy weapons that can murder buildings. And innate ability to counterspell.

... and once the wreckage of basically all of civilization stops bouncing, what then? :smalltongue:

One other suggestion for the movie list (which seems so obvious to me that I'm wondering if there's some aspect to it that I'm forgetting that disqualifies it as a 'proper' Shadowrun movie) would have to be Ocean's Eleven. Lots and lots of legwork, planning, and everything going wrong.

[Misereor]

Dug up my SR movie list. Feel free to add to it.

Total Recall
Johnny Mnemonic
Blade Runner
Ronin
The 5th Element
Oceans Eleven+
Sneakers
The Italian Job
Heat
Rising Sun
The Usual Suspects
Maximum Overdrive (psychotic riggers only)
Shooter
Bourne trilogy
The Wild Geese
Where Eagles Dare
Sleepless in Seattle (extended Directors cut, non-PG version only)

[comicshorse]

Ronin has already been mentioned so :

Skyfall

Southern Comfort (not immediately obvious but I've run a Cyberpunk and Shadowrun scenario based off this movie. Shadowrun was particularly fun, there are so many nasty Paranaturals that live in swamps)

Layer Cake ( for low level Runners )

Strange Days ( twisted uses for technology, society in decay, labyrinthine conspiracies. Frankly the perfect Shadowrun movie)

Way of the Gun

Also : Why 'Sleepless in Seattle' ?

[Dimers]

Mmmm, maybe The Professional (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0110413/?ref_=nv_sr_1)?

[comicshorse]

Or Le Samourai for lovers of classic films

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0062229/?ref_=nv_sr_1

[TeChameleon]

Huh. Not sure I would have included Where Eagles Dare on a Shadowrun movie list. I'm pretty sure I see what you're getting at with it, but from my point of view, we don't see enough of the legwork as it happens for it to work well as a 'how to' for Shadowrun. It all gets revealed towards the end- Alistair Maclean is one of my all-time favourite authors, but he does action and suspense a lot better than the 'planning' end of things; it typically all comes to light towards the end, rather than being built-in to the plot as it goes along, like most heist movies and the runs that tend to come up in the games I've played.

[Misereor]

Huh. Not sure I would have included Where Eagles Dare on a Shadowrun movie list. I'm pretty sure I see what you're getting at with it, but from my point of view, we don't see enough of the legwork as it happens for it to work well as a 'how to' for Shadowrun. It all gets revealed towards the end- Alistair Maclean is one of my all-time favourite authors, but he does action and suspense a lot better than the 'planning' end of things; it typically all comes to light towards the end, rather than being built-in to the plot as it goes along, like most heist movies and the runs that tend to come up in the games I've played.

Infiltration, Exfiltration, compromised Johnson, and blowing up stuff (and besides Richard Burton is probably my favorite actor).
I would have mentioned Kelly's Heroes too, if it didn't remind me too entirely too much of how my players like to do things :smallbiggrin:

[Lord Torath]

Infiltration, Exfiltration, compromised Johnson, and blowing up stuff (and besides Richard Burton is probably my favorite actor).
I would have mentioned Kelly's Heroes too, if it didn't remind me too entirely too much of how my players like to do things :smallbiggrin:OK, but that still doesn't answer why Sleepless in Seattle counts as a Shadowrun movie. :smallconfused:

[LibraryOgre]

Sleepless in Seattle (extended Directors cut, non-PG version only)

Under spoilers if you feel it necessary, but I really want an explanation for this one.

[Misereor]

Under spoilers if you feel it necessary, but I really want an explanation for this one.

Why, the evil megacorporations, ultra-violence, and world shattering plots obviously.
That scene where Hanks and Meg Ryan go nuts with chainsaws in the Japanese leper monastery still makes me shudder just to think about it.

Of course the unrated version is pretty hard to find.

[Dimers]

Yeah, I mean, duhhh. Geez. I bet you guys missed the editor's cut of Bridges of Madison County too. That was so Paranoia.

[LibraryOgre]

Why, the evil megacorporations, ultra-violence, and world shattering plots obviously.
That scene where Hanks and Meg Ryan go nuts with chainsaws in the Japanese leper monastery still makes me shudder just to think about it.

Of course the unrated version is pretty hard to find.

Ah. You are implying "humor". I am afraid, due to my (https://wiki.lspace.org/mediawiki/Mavolio_Bent) Nichtlachen-Keinwortz Syndrome (https://wiki.lspace.org/mediawiki/Nichtlachen-Keinwortz_Syndrome), I was unable to detect it.

[TeChameleon]

Ah. You are implying "humor". I am afraid, due to my (https://wiki.lspace.org/mediawiki/Mavolio_Bent) Nichtlachen-Keinwortz Syndrome (https://wiki.lspace.org/mediawiki/Nichtlachen-Keinwortz_Syndrome), I was unable to detect it.

... there's a certain subtle irony in making a Discworld reference to claim no sense of humour :smallconfused: :smalltongue:

Speaking of humour, I don't think it would be too much of a stretch to add The Blues Brothers to the Shadowrun movie list; getting the job ("We're on a mission from God!"... even if the Almighty is probably a bit higher up the ranks than most of the Johnsons runners would be dealing with), recruiting specialists (getting the band back together), gearing up (Ray's Music Store), running from the cops (repeatedly), the job itself (putting on the show)...

[druid91]

That moment when you ask the GM for an opinion on your build, expecting to be asked to tone it down and instead they suggest that you might want to invest in some armor.

When you have 56 points of hardened armor.

:smalleek:

[LibraryOgre]

That moment when you ask the GM for an opinion on your build, expecting to be asked to tone it down and instead they suggest that you might want to invest in some armor.

When you have 56 points of hardened armor.

:smalleek:

...what are you playing?

[Lord Torath]

That moment when you ask the GM for an opinion on your build, expecting to be asked to tone it down and instead they suggest that you might want to invest in some armor.

When you have 56 points of hardened armor.

:smalleek:What are you going to be fighting?!? :smalleek:

[druid91]

...what are you playing?

A toned down version of the AH force ally possession mage posted earlier.

No energy drain. So no unlimited power but still plenty of it.

[caden_varn]

So, having played through some of the HBS Shadowrun computer games, I have become enthused to dig out my Shadowrun stuff (sound familiar?). My enthusiasm has waned a bit on starting to reread the rules though, I must admit (it's complicated, and my youthful love of complex games died under mysterious circumstances a couple of decades ago).

I am looking at 3rd edition, as I only have that & 1st edition.

Some questions:
From further up the thread, it looks like the editions are a bit of 'pick your poison' - they didn't simplify things in 4th or 5th?

Any tips for 3E, or generally, to make a game with all newbies go a bit more smoothly? (technically some of us will have played/run around 25 years ago, but I doubt anyone remembers any rules - I certainly didn't!).
Already planning on saying NPC deckers only so I don't need to worry about the Matrix. Anything else? I am wondering how much of a PITA summoning spirits is going to be...

[Dimers]

4th-ed is more smooth than 3rd but no less complicated. Matrix stuff is somewhat better, until you crack open the hacking supplement Unwired, and then you're scrod. My understanding is that 5th-ed is indeed simpler, but reports and my stubborn grognarditude make it sound like something I wouldn't enjoy, so I haven't picked up anything from that edition.

[Floret]

4th and 5th edition are both certainly playable, but if you are looking for a simple, rules-light (or even rules-medium) ruleset, go run screaming in the other direction.
But I have another suggestion: If what you are looking for is Shadowrun, but with simpler rules, you might wanna take a look at Shadowrun: Anarchy, a rules-wise standalone alternative system loosely tied to 5th edition.

While the system does also have some narrative rules tied to it, where the players gain much more say over what happens, those are pretty unrelated to the bit of the system that is Shadowrun Light (And the book itself has bits on how to play it with a more traditional GM and initiative rules). So far, it is pretty close to what I want from a Shadowrun ruleset, and I'm heavily on the "light system, faster action" side of things.

Note that "Light" is a somewhat serious statement, it simplifies a lot (Cutting down/combining attributes; combining skills; cutting out rule differences, etc.) and does (of course) loose some granularity in the process.
Some of that goes somewhat against setting canon (Technically, the rules allow for Adepts to astrally project, because rules-wise, differentiation between kinds of magic users isn't a thing anymore. At the same time everyone, including mages, is heavily forced to specialise, so as far as I see there is little reason to fear everyone just being magic adepts now).
The way the system does Knowlege skills is a screwjob, but rather easily fixed. Character creation will probably need some GM judgement on how to model things not ported into anarchy; the examples the book gives and the rules for generating "Shadow boosters" (Everything not a skill, (dis)advantage, or attribute, basically) were more than enough for me to feel comfortable with it in about half an hour. Your mileage may vary, of course.
(And stay away from the character conversion rules to and from SR5. That way lies weirdness.)

Note also that I am referencing the German version here, sometimes they are different from the english ones.

[druid91]

Curious, I've seen a lot of combat mage builds, but a lot of them spend time on things like Ware and the like.

Anyone know of a good spell/Skill set for a Free Spirit to get decked out as a combat mage?

[caden_varn]

Thanks for the info everyone. I'll have to check out Anarchy, sounds like what I might want.

[Dimers]

I have another suggestion: If what you are looking for is Shadowrun, but with simpler rules, you might wanna take a look at Shadowrun: Anarchy, a rules-wise standalone alternative system loosely tied to 5th edition.

That sounds unspeakably cool! But looking at the Drive-Thru RPG site, I'm seeing a lot of people mention problems (and no recent fixes). Has anyone here tried out the English version? Or for that matter, anything else based on "the Cue System"?

[Floret]

That sounds unspeakably cool! But looking at the Drive-Thru RPG site, I'm seeing a lot of people mention problems (and no recent fixes). Has anyone here tried out the English version? Or for that matter, anything else based on "the Cue System"?

While I, as mentioned, haven't got access to the English version, I can at least point out that the problems I saw written out specifically enough that I can check them are not present in the German version (The "Sprite" does have a Firewall Attribute, and the "Tasking" skill, for example).
Whether this correction is merely a German version thing I ofc can't say (The fact that the DriveThru version is older than the comments pointing out the problem suggests it might be, alongside other comments I found on the web).
So... I'd like to point out I have formed my recommendation on a version without these bugs, and that fixes for most of them are out there. At least somewhere. I might be able to help out with those if you need it.

Afaik the part taken inspiration from the "cue system" is exactly the part of the rules that is not "Shadowrun Light", but rather the narrative rules with the switching narrative control. The complaints I saw mostly go against the "Shadowrun Light" part. I can't really comment on the narrative part, and my recommendation isn't based on it, considering we switched a SR5 game over to Anarchy, and wanted to keep the GM position where it was - meaning I haven't tried that part out.

[Dimers]

Well, I've ordered a hard copy. I'll try to remember to give a review here once I've taken a look.

[caden_varn]

Where do you get the timestamp for a file on drive-thru RPG? I cannot see how to get to it?

[Floret]

On the product page, in the "Product information" sidebar on the right, the second to last point. For Shadowrun Anarchy, that says File last updated October 8th, 2016 (Or sth to that effect... translations and ****...)

[Dimers]

In 4th Edition --

I want to make a sneaky character, probably mildly magical (but I'm not tied to that). I want this sneaky character to have a way to create or widen holes that she can squirm through. It'd need to be quiet, of course. What ways are there to quietly deal damage to a wide variety of objects? Or move them out of the way, at least, without spending all my spell picks on Shape [Material Type] spells?

[comicshorse]

Shapechange ? Why create bigger holes when you can create a smaller you

[LibraryOgre]

Shapechange ? Why create bigger holes when you can create a smaller you

This would be my answer. Other than that, maybe some Elemental Manipulations that create Acid?

[Lord Torath]

This would be my answer. Other than that, maybe some Elemental Manipulations that create Acid?HCl- and NaOH+. Not everything is dissolvable by acid. Or even by a base. Ceramics are remarkably resistant to those substances, and I have no idea how PlasteelTM reacts. One formula had a critical weakness to a particular chemical catalyst, but I'm sure they've since fixed that vulnerability (DNA/DOA - 1989).

Thermite is relatively quiet as I understand it. Certainly compared to C4 or C12 plastique.

[Gurifu]

I'm making my first ever Shadowrun starting character. 5th edition rules. I'm semi-familiar with the setting from playing the Shadowrun Returns videogame, but I'm completely new to the system itself and it's a lot to take in. My favorite D&D5e classes are Rogue, Fighter, and Paladin, in roughly that order. I know I want my Runner to be an Elf.

Any recommendations for a build structure, or links to a prebuilt character? I'd appreciate any help.

[Lord Torath]

The general roles in Shadowrun are Face, Utility, Intelligence Gatherer, and Combat.

The general archetypes are: Decker (computer hacker), Rigger (drones and vehicles), Magic User (still a difference between Shamans and Mages?), and Street Samurai (ranged or close combat, cyberneticly or magically assisted).

Elves make great Faces, because of a racial bonus to charisma (unless you have to deal with someone from Humanis). But they can also fill any of the other roles pretty well, too. They can also fill any of the archetypes as well.

So before we can recommend a build, you need to decide on a role and an archetype. So you tell us, what kind of an elf do you want to play?

[Gurifu]

The general roles in Shadowrun are Face, Utility, Intelligence Gatherer, and Combat.

The general archetypes are: Decker (computer hacker), Rigger (drones and vehicles), Magic User (still a difference between Shamans and Mages?), and Street Samurai (ranged or close combat, cyberneticly or magically assisted).

Elves make great Faces, because of a racial bonus to charisma (unless you have to deal with someone from Humanis). But they can also fill any of the other roles pretty well, too. They can also fill any of the archetypes as well.

So before we can recommend a build, you need to decide on a role and an archetype. So you tell us, what kind of an elf do you want to play?

I don't think I want to be a Decker or Magic User.

Face/Rigger and Intelligence Gatherer/Street Samurai(cybernetic close combat) are the most attractive combinations to me.

[Dimers]

Shapechange ? Why create bigger holes when you can create a smaller you

Wanting to go through places where there's no hole at all. I'm imagining burrowing up from below, bypassing external security with extensive use of Shape Earth (and Concrete and Plascrete and whatever). It's a good suggestion all the same -- I don't need to make a dwarf-sized hole if I have Shapechange. Depending on circumstances an ordinary drill might do the trick. A mouse or garter snake can fit through a very small hole.


Maybe some Elemental Manipulations that create Acid?


Thermite is relatively quiet as I understand it.

Only upon seeing these suggestions did I stop to think about what can be done safely in a small tunnel. 800-degree heat and fumes from chemical reactions are probably things to avoid (though there IS that fireman's armor ...). I've played too much D&D, where stuff doesn't have to follow physical laws in the slightest. Gonna have to give this more thought.

[Dimers]

4E: Counterspelling doesn't seem to involve a skill roll when used as a defense, only when you're trying to dispel. If you were GMing, would you apply skill specializations, e.g. better at countering Combat spells? What about the penalties for Aspected Magician quality from Street Magic?

[DodgerH2O]

4E: Counterspelling doesn't seem to involve a skill roll when used as a defense, only when you're trying to dispel. If you were GMing, would you apply skill specializations, e.g. better at countering Combat spells? What about the penalties for Aspected Magician quality from Street Magic?

I'd rule that specializations add more dice and I don't see any text in the Aspected Magician quality indicating penalties to the Counterspelling skill so no penalties there. I have yet to see a player with a dedicated Counterspelling regime and counters for such in theory are pretty easy (bullets aren't counterspelled, nor are grenades.)

I also envision it as a generic skill coming from ones connection to Magic, regardless of Aspect. One can Counterspell without awareness so it must be an intuitive sense or state of mind one can improve, rather than requiring active resistance.

[Dimers]

I don't see any text in the Aspected Magician quality indicating penalties to the Counterspelling skill ...

It's not specifically called out like Enchanting or Assensing, but it's part of the Sorcery skill group.

[Lord Torath]

I don't think I want to be a Decker or Magic User.

Face/Rigger and Intelligence Gatherer/Street Samurai(cybernetic close combat) are the most attractive combinations to me.First a disclaimer: I only know 5th Ed. from what I've read on the forums. 2nd is the Edition I'm most familiar with. Someone with more familiarity with 5E will probably give you better information.

For the Face/Rigger build, you're going to want lots of points in Negotiation, the various Etiquette skills, and the basic Pilot Vehicle skills (Car, Truck, Rotocraft, Lighter-than-Air, and possibly boat and fixed-wing aircraft). You're also going to want basic armed combat (and possibly focusing or specializing in the Stun Baton), and a decent skill in all the general types of firearms and heavy weapons. You never know what type of weapon you're going to want to mount on a vehicle/drone.

Cyberware-wise you're going to need a Vehicle Control Rig, and you'll probably want Tailored Pheromones to assist your social skills. You'll want a Smart-Link, as well.

Drones: You'll probably want a good surveillance drone (I always liked the Condor LTA drones), and a couple of combat drones, one flying (Rotodrone), one ground-based (Doberman, Steel Lynx).

I'd also recommend both a lethal and non-lethal weapon on each combat drone. Try to avoid killing anyone unless you're getting paid for it. :smallamused:

Also, you'll want either a good Mechanic as a contact, or some Build/Repair skills and a vehicle shop to fix up your drones when they get damaged. A decent-sized step-van to use as a mobile base of operations is a good idea. Satellite uplink for the decker, drone rack, weapons rack, first aid kit, some vehicle armor, and a method of quickly changing the exterior appearance (a Castle episode had a white van covered with an easily removable black skin).

For the Street Samurai, I'd recommend a mix of lethal and non-lethal weapons, and at least some type of ranged weapon. Probably a skill in thrown weapons also (grenades, throwing knives, etc). You'll still want a couple of Etiquette skills (Street and possibly High or Military) at a decent level, too. In 2E, specializing in a weapon was only good if you were only ever going to use that weapon. If you had two different weapons (say Combat Axe and Stun Baton), for the same Karma cost as specializing in both weaopns, you could instead be equally proficient in all armed combat. But specialize in your unarmed combat style if your GM allows it. Melee weapons with a reach bonus were critical in 2E (combat axe was +2 reach, Stun Baton was +1, and Shock Gloves were -1, but usable with unarmed combat styles)

In 2E, Cyberware and Bioware took up different resources (Essence and Body), so you could combine a high level of Wired Reflexes with bioware like Muscle Augmentation and a Trauma Damper (best bioware ever!) Not sure if that's still the case in 5E. Anything to boost your initiative is also good. In 2E, this was anything that increased Quickness and Intelligence. Those attributes plus Willpower affected your Combat Pool. Smart Link is still probably worthwhile.

For either character, invest in an identity-concealing mask, a white-noise generator, a bug scanner, and an encrypted cell phone/radio transceiver. Voice mask optional. Also get some goggles with IR/ultrasound/flare compensation options (I think elves get natural low-light vision, better than the mechanical stuff in your goggles). They'll be somewhat expensive, but being able to see in any condition is well worth it!

Good luck!

[Corsair14]

I picked up the 5e rule book. Holy crap what a fething mess of a numbers game. I had forgotten how complicated the game was. It made my head hurt just reading the combat examples. I thought the new Star Wars and its silly dice was bad. I might have to go back to first or second edition. I at least could run those fairly easily.

[DodgerH2O]

It's not specifically called out like Enchanting or Assensing, but it's part of the Sorcery skill group.

Nice catch. In that case I'd give penalties (where Sorcery gets them) yes.

[Squared]

If you want to make a character in 5e get Chummer5. It makes creating a character pretty simple. I even make characters just for fun with it.

^2

[Lord Torath]

I don't think I want to be a Decker or Magic User.

Face/Rigger and Intelligence Gatherer/Street Samurai(cybernetic close combat) are the most attractive combinations to me.An additional note: if you can take the Good Reputation edge, it will pay for itself many times over in easier social tests, which (in 2E anyway) covers everything from Negotiation (more money per job, chummer?) to legwork information checks.

[Evoker]

Not a question exactly, but a cool run idea.

A Johnson for a bio-technolgy research division contacts the PC's with a simple job. He's gotten wind that a rival research division has made a breakthrough. He needs the PC's to infiltrate the lab and grab the test animals. The PC's receive minimal resistance, and grab the animals easily. The Johnson calls them to his office. however, when the PC's enter the facility, any anti-spirit wards go off, and the PC's have to make a bolt for it. As it turns out, the Johnson was an agent for the research lab the PC's raided, and the run was just a setup to get spirits using the test mice/rabbits/etc as hosts through the wards.

What do you think of this idea for a run?

[Desiani]

I'm coming from 5e where I want to bring my Surge 3 cat lady Mysad College Professor into 4th and I am just looking to know if there are significant differences over SURGE in 4e vs 5

[caden_varn]

Well, I've ordered a hard copy. I'll try to remember to give a review here once I've taken a look.

Did you get a chance to look it over yet? Any comments if so?

[Misereor]

Not a question exactly, but a cool run idea.

A Johnson for a bio-technolgy research division contacts the PC's with a simple job. He's gotten wind that a rival research division has made a breakthrough. He needs the PC's to infiltrate the lab and grab the test animals. The PC's receive minimal resistance, and grab the animals easily. The Johnson calls them to his office. however, when the PC's enter the facility, any anti-spirit wards go off, and the PC's have to make a bolt for it. As it turns out, the Johnson was an agent for the research lab the PC's raided, and the run was just a setup to get spirits using the test mice/rabbits/etc as hosts through the wards.

What do you think of this idea for a run?

Threats 2 has some guard dogs inhabited by insect spirits.
Suffice to say the level of hillarity is always improved by killer bunnies tearing out throats left and right.

[druid91]

Curious, what sort of events could lead up to a World War Three scenario in the Shadowrun universe? Personally I'm imagining the flashpoint to be between the NAN and the UCAS.

[comicshorse]

Curious, what sort of events could lead up to a World War Three scenario in the Shadowrun universe? Personally I'm imagining the flashpoint to be between the NAN and the UCAS.

I'm only up to 4th ED on Shadowrun background so if any of this has been re-written, sorry

Well its arguable Shadowrun has already had a Third World War with the Euro Wars before the mysterious force *Cough Britain Cough* stopped them. And a fourth with the Jihad

For what could cause the Fifth World War I'd put my money on Imperial Japan. They may have lost the territory they once conquered in the wake of the Ring of Fire but I'd bet there are large sections of their military just itching for a chance to reclaim them

[Lord Torath]

Active Skills and Enhanced Articulation Bioware:

In Shadowtech (1E-2E), the Enhanced Articulation bioware lets you "roll an additional die when making any Success Test involving an Active Skill."

The 1E and 2E rulebooks have five broad categories of skills: "Active, Build & Repair, Knowledge, Languages, and Special Skills." Under the umbrella of Active Skills appears to be the following subgroups:
Combat Skills
Physical Skills
Technical Skills
Magical Skills
Social Skills
Vehicle Skills

So does that mean that Enhanced articulation makes you better at Negotiation (a Social skill)? But doesn't help with reaching that hard-to-reach bolt when Build/Repairing a car engine?

[LibraryOgre]

Curious, what sort of events could lead up to a World War Three scenario in the Shadowrun universe? Personally I'm imagining the flashpoint to be between the NAN and the UCAS.

I think it would have to be something that threatened corporate interests sufficiently to make them throw in on opposing sides. The world-as-presented has a fair degree of conflict, but there's also the undercurrent (IMO) that the megacorps keep anything from getting too out of hand... polarization doesn't drive profits like balkanization does.

[Dimers]

Did you get a chance to look it over yet? Any comments if so?

Sadly, no, it's still looking at me mournfully from the bedside stand, puppydog eyes on full blast. I read the first few pages and found the flavor satisfying ... something I find good in SR4 but lacking in SR4A. That's all I've got so far. Thanks for asking.

[comicshorse]

Active Skills and Enhanced Articulation Bioware:

In Shadowtech (1E-2E), the Enhanced Articulation bioware lets you "roll an additional die when making any Success Test involving an Active Skill."

The 1E and 2E rulebooks have five broad categories of skills: "Active, Build & Repair, Knowledge, Languages, and Special Skills." Under the umbrella of Active Skills appears to be the following subgroups:
Combat Skills
Physical Skills
Technical Skills
Magical Skills
Social Skills
Vehicle Skills

So does that mean that Enhanced articulation makes you better at Negotiation (a Social skill)? But doesn't help with reaching that hard-to-reach bolt when Build/Repairing a car engine?

Reading it exactly as written I'd say yes a literal reading of it say's exactly that.
However Enhanced Articulation also says it applies to 'motion intensive skills' which leaves out Social Skills and Technical, Magical and arguably Vehicle skills too.
As I remember we only applied it to Combat and Physical skills ( and motor bikes thanks to some persuasive arguing by the Phys. Ad. biker)
This seems a time when a sensible interpretation of things on a case-by-case basis would be better than just sticking to RAW

[Lord Torath]

Reading it exactly as written I'd say yes a literal reading of it say's exactly that.
However Enhanced Articulation also says it applies to 'motion intensive skills' which leaves out Social Skills and Technical, Magical and arguably Vehicle skills too.
As I remember we only applied it to Combat and Physical skills ( and motor bikes thanks to some persuasive arguing by the Phys. Ad. biker)
This seems a time when a sensible interpretation of things on a case-by-case basis would be better than just sticking to RAW
Yeah, I figured I'd apply it to Combat skills, Physical Skills, B/R skills, and selected Special Skills (wood carving, pottery, underwater basket weaving, etc.)

[comicshorse]

Yeah, I figured I'd apply it to Combat skills, Physical Skills, B/R skills, and selected Special Skills (wood carving, pottery, underwater basket weaving, etc.)

The only one of those I'd find a bit dicey is B/R, which I'd say is much more dependent on technical knowledge than smooth movement

[DigoDragon]

Next Saturday my local group is going to attempt to play 4th edition SR. So far it looks like three players have concepts; Hacker, Face, and a shaman (mostly detection spells).

I was thinking of going for a gunslinger adept (team could use a decent sharpshooter). Haven't done an adept as a PC. Any pitfalls to be wary of when building a concept?

[Dimers]

I was thinking of going for a gunslinger adept (team could use a decent sharpshooter). Haven't done an adept as a PC. Any pitfalls to be wary of when building a concept?

You're experienced with the system, so you already know the general non-adept stuff. I don't see any trap options among adept powers.

You might want to get a melee weapon focus (possibly a gun's butt) in case of magic opponents. And if you go for maximum leadspray by using two pistols or SMGs, be sure to remind your GM that the defender takes a penalty for each defense after the first ...

[DigoDragon]

You're experienced with the system, so you already know the general non-adept stuff. I don't see any trap options among adept powers.

You might want to get a melee weapon focus (possibly a gun's butt) in case of magic opponents. And if you go for maximum leadspray by using two pistols or SMGs, be sure to remind your GM that the defender takes a penalty for each defense after the first ...

Cool, so it seems I got a good handle on thing. Thanks for the tip to have a melee attack handy.


I was speaking to the player that is making the Face, and we came up with a fun way to have our characters share some history prior to the game start. He was inspired by the tv series Burn Notice. His character was burned for an unknown reason by his employer [insert agency here], dumped in Seattle, and is now SINless. He's forced to run in the shadows to earn money for his personal investigation on who burned him and why. My character, a ganger, used to be one of his contacts to the shadows. Used to supply him with weapons, knew people, and got around a good bit. After his character got burned, a number of my contacts stopped associating with me, which hurt my own "business". Forced to pick up shadow jobs to generate income, my character joins up with his on the investigation.

[Lord Torath]

The only one of those I'd find a bit dicey is B/R, which I'd say is much more dependent on technical knowledge than smooth movementEver put a PC together? All sorts of tiny screws, cable connections, etc. in a tiny casing. Electronics are tiny, and soldering them is always tricky. How about a kitchen sink faucet? Those suckers are a pain in the back and neck to install, at least in my experience. I've helped take apart a car engine as well, and some of those bolts are nearly impossible to reach. I can't think of many B/R skills that wouldn't be helped by having improved joint flexibility.

[comicshorse]

Yeah but if you fail to attach the tiny screw there's no consequence, you just try it again until it works. Whereas putting the wrong fuse in ( technical knowledge) and you could wreck the whole thing.
But that's my opinion and, at the end of the day, its your game to run how you want

[Telwar]

Cool, so it seems I got a good handle on thing. Thanks for the tip to have a melee attack handy.

My personal preference for 4e magic gunbunnies is Automatics; not only does it sound more fun to be using bursts (controlled or wildly not) instead of single shots, but you have a lot of flexibility in your choice of arms, with everything from machine pistols and small SMGs to be your walking-around sidearm to assault and battle rifles.

Sure, you'll probably do with caseless, but my next one (...whenever the frak that'll be) is going to have an ARO playing the sound of brass landing on the appropriate material whenever he lays waste.

And you can absolutely have an enchanted bayonet or stock (teak, mahogany, say, possibly salvaged from a bespoke elephant rifle) to use on spirits, though for weak ones the Stick'n'Shock rounds are good for those, as is just a frakton of successes. After having a 3.0 DM fireball corpses in our D&D game, when it came time to play Shadowrun, I was fond of Melee Hardening my weapons and just clubbing or bayoneting things instead of having to change weapons and risk losing my fancy gun with its own character sheet.

[DigoDragon]

My personal preference for 4e magic gunbunnies is Automatics; not only does it sound more fun to be using bursts (controlled or wildly not) instead of single shots, but you have a lot of flexibility in your choice of arms, with everything from machine pistols and small SMGs to be your walking-around sidearm to assault and battle rifles.

They're a good deal for gunbunnies, yeah, plus the GM has no issues with us using the mods in the Arsenal book to tweak our weapons.

My combat mage in the last campaign I played had a signature weapon of a Super Warhawk modified for semi-auto. Perfect for intimidating captives and drilling holes into... well pretty much anything. One to two well placed shots would take out a small spy drone, or disable most civilian vehicles. I loved that gun.



Sure, you'll probably do with caseless, but my next one (...whenever the frak that'll be) is going to have an ARO playing the sound of brass landing on the appropriate material whenever he lays waste.

Ooh, that's a nice little detail. I like it!



And you can absolutely have an enchanted bayonet or stock (teak, mahogany, say, possibly salvaged from a bespoke elephant rifle) to use on spirits, though for weak ones the Stick'n'Shock rounds are good for those, as is just a frakton of successes. After having a 3.0 DM fireball corpses in our D&D game, when it came time to play Shadowrun, I was fond of Melee Hardening my weapons and just clubbing or bayoneting things instead of having to change weapons and risk losing my fancy gun with its own character sheet.

The double-edged sword of Shadowrun 4e. :smalltongue: That stick-n-shock stuff is too good. I always tried to come to a gentleman's agreement of not going crazy with those if the GM would also restrain themselves with it. But you can't be too careful, so I always add electrical resistance to my armor anyway. ;)

[Lord Torath]

2E question. Does anyone know where Improved Hand Razors are listed? I have a house rule that they inflict Str+2 L damage. But that's it. No install cost, no Essence cost, no availablity or availability date. I don't think I completely made them up, but I can't seem to find them in the sourcebooks. Can anyone help me out?

[comicshorse]

Ok, good news is you didn't imagine them.

Improved Hand Razors first turn up in The Street Samurai Catalogue for first edition. Page 89
They do (Str)2L, costs 9,000 in one place and 8.500 in another. There's no Essence cost given because they're just an improvement on the basic Hand Razors which you need to have installed first. Essence cost for basic Hand Razors in First is 0.1 Essence or 0.2 if you want them to be retractable ( though living with cyber claws permanently 'popped' doesn't bear thinking about. I'd rather my 'Runner not risk crippling injuries every time he goes to the loo :smallsmile:)

They seem to be skipped in 2nd Ed

They turn up in 3rd again as an improvement to Hand Razors. Costing an extra 8,500 to upgrade your basic Hand Razors to them and doing (Str+2)L damage. Again as they're an adjustment to basic Hand Razors once you've paid the Essence Cost for the basic model Improved costs no extra Essence.
Essence cost is again 0.1 for non retractable razors, 0.2 for the sane option

[Lord Torath]

Huh. I use the Street Samurai Catalog (my version is the "updated to 2E" version with "BANNED" blocking out a few pages), which makes me wonder what I was thinking when I wrote that down as a house rule. :smallredface:

Thanks!

[DigoDragon]

If anyone's curious about my gunbunny build--

Metatype: Ork (20 pts.)

Attributes (200 pts.)
BOD 8
AGI 5(9)
REA 5(6)
STR 3

CHA 2
INT 3
LOG 2
WIL 5

Init 9 (2 IP)
Edge 3
Ess 4
Magic 3 (bought 5, lost 2 pts. from Bioware)

Positive Qualities (20 pts.)
Low Light Vision (Ork)
Adept
Restricted Gear 1 (used on Muscle Toner)
Changeling II (Metagenetic Improvement-AGI, Unusual Hair, Extravagant Eyes)

Negative Qualities (+35 pts.)
Gremlins 2
In Debt 4
Compulsive Behavior (Gluttony)

Adept Powers [Magic 3, giving 3 power points worth)
Attribute Boost 1 (STR)
Combat Sense 2
Killing Hands
Critical Strike 1
Mystic Armor 2

Skills (80 pts.)
Athletics Skill Group 2

Automatics 6
Dodge 4
Unarmed combat 1

Infiltration 1
Perception 1
Etiquette 1
Pilot (ground vehicles) 1

Knowledge Skills
Seattle Street Gangs 2
Security Design 2

English N (Lingo - gang)
Or'Zet 2
Japanese 1

Contacts (11 pts. House rule of free points = CHAx2 in play)
Street Doc 3/5
Fixer 3/4

Gear (44 pts.)

Bioware:
Muscle Toner 4 (0.8 ess)
Platelet Factories (0.2 ess)
Damage Compensators 4 (0.4 ess)
Reflex Recorder (Automatics) (0.1 ess)
Synaptic Booster 1 (0.5 ess)

Lifestyle
Low Quality, 4 months pre-paid

Equipment
Survival Knife
Ares Crusader (+Laser sight, +concealed holster, +1 spare clip)
Ingram Smartgun X (+2 spare clips)
Ingram Smartgun X (2 spare clips)
Ak 97 (+Integral Smartgun, +Gas vent 3, +Shock pad, +hang strap, +2 spare clips)

Ammo (lots, enough for each weapon to go through four loads worth of regular ammo and 2 loads of gel ammo)

Thermal smoke grenade x2
Pepper Punch gas grenades x2

Armored Jacket (+Nonconductivity 4, +Fire Resist 4)
Armored Vest(+Nonconductivity 4, +Fire Resist 4) (for public appearances really. I've seen fellow runners get shanked during downtime)
Helmet

Commlink (Novatech + Iris)
Common software (basic, Mapsoft 6)
Skinlink
Subvocal Mic
Goggles (rating 6, +Flare comp, +Image link, +Smartlink, +Vision enhancement 3)
Earbuds (rating 3, +Audio enhancement 3)

Tag eraser
Datachips x5
Certified Credstick
Fake Sin x2 (Rating 4)
Fake licenses (2 gun, 2 driver, all rating 4)

Plastic zip ties x10
Crowbar
Flashlight
Lightsticks x10
Gas mask
Survival kit
Medkid (rating 6)


My thoughts on the build:
The character is built to do one thing really well--dakka. He'll throw about 18 dice with the Ingram SMGs 9 AGI +6 skill +1 Reflex recorder +2 Smartgun link). I bought two because, dodge melee with 12 dice (8 vs. ranged), and has a physical soak pool of 18 dice with the armored jacket vs. bullets. Infiltration is decent, though he's no ninja. Other skills aren't impressive, but he can at least throw a punch and drive a car without floundering utterly.

Lots of gear because I know the GM and he will micromanage the RP of every buy. :o

The bioware hits the essence pretty hard, but I found a weird quirk that IPs are cheaper this way. Plus, it's the fastest way to buy up Agility. Platelet Factories and Damage Compensators ensure that any damage he does take gets mitigated quickly. Gremlins because those are hilarious for RP and he doesn't really need to use computer skills (gun pool is high enough that it shouldn't come up often). In Debt because leads to interesting jobs to pay it back. So... I think it's a pretty solid build.

[Dimers]

The bioware hits the essence pretty hard, but I found a weird quirk that IPs are cheaper this way.

Sorta, sorta not. In terms of BP, the synaptic booster is costing you 16 for the nuyen and another 5 for half a point of Magic lost. Even without geas-ing your Adept powers, the first level of their IP-granter is only costing you the equivalent of 15 BP, and the second one just 10. Long term, the synaptic booster will probably be cheaper to raise. It's somewhat dependent on the ratio of rewards, money versus karma. (Your "In Debt" kinda hurts you, there.)

That ignores the other benefits you get from your bioware, of course. It's much more expensive to go above the natural Agility limit with magic than with warez. The damage reducers are pretty low-Essence so they're probably a better buy per BP than Mystic Armor, and they work against damage coming from inside you, too. Likewise, the Reflex Recorder is a better deal than spending Magic on raising your Automatics skill.

Note that the Attribute Boost will most likely give you 1 point of Strength for 2 turns, and it takes a Simple Action to use. Not a lot of situations where that'll make a difference.

I can suggest optimizations for defense and DPS, but I won't burden the thread trying to prove that I'm nerdier than you :smallwink:

[DigoDragon]

That ignores the other benefits you get from your bioware, of course. It's much more expensive to go above the natural Agility limit with magic than with warez. The damage reducers are pretty low-Essence so they're probably a better buy per BP than Mystic Armor, and they work against damage coming from inside you, too. Likewise, the Reflex Recorder is a better deal than spending Magic on raising your Automatics skill.

Ah, seems that you're right. The Synaptic Booster isn't cheaper. The other bio crammed in there makes up for some of it. I think I still get a little ahead in certain areas, like you mentioned--Agility.



Note that the Attribute Boost will most likely give you 1 point of Strength for 2 turns, and it takes a Simple Action to use. Not a lot of situations where that'll make a difference.

Yeah, I was thinking about that. Might either change it for Reaction or drop it entirely for something more useful (maybe another point of critical strike, then STR becomes less a problem with my +2 DV in melee).



I can suggest optimizations for defense and DPS, but I won't burden the thread trying to prove that I'm nerdier than you :smallwink:

Haha, nah, its okay. Given the low optimization the party has been putting into their characters, I think I'm plenty organized. I should help the party Face today optimize their character, because they didn't consider the wonders of cyber/bio to up their combat game.

[DigoDragon]

Last Saturday my local group played our first session of Shadowrun 4e. Three of us are veterans with the system, so we're prepared and ready. The GM has played 4th edition, but it's his first time running things. And we have a newbie player that knows a little of the game's premise, but never touched the books before. Not a problem. I sat next to the new player and helped her build a pretty decent streetsam. Just a straight-forward easy character type to play so she can learn the basic rules and go up from there.

Overall the session played out as smoothly as the Hindenburg disaster. :smalltongue:

Things started out fine. We each give some bullet points from our back story and the GM works out how our fixers call us up to meet a Johnson for a run. My character and the Face have a prior history, so we get together and arrive early to scope out the bar we're meeting at. We meet the Johnson and accept our first mission--there is a low-level street gang that killed a courier and took the package he was supposed to deliver to our Johnson. The job is to find the gang and take back the package. The gang isn't well established nor well-equipped, but they're hiding in a place that Lone Star hates to go, and the Johnson knows that the cops will confiscate his package as 'evidence' if he goes to the police. Fair enough. We're given a rough area where the courier's last GPS signal came from and a description of what the package is. Pay was a little on the low side, which I assumed was so that the party Face can shine and negotiate a better pay, but he dropped the ball on negotiations. Ah well, first session hiccup.

Alright, we got two days to secure the package and call the Johnson back. We exchange contact numbers and discuss our plan for legwork. The team shaman says he's gonna do legwork on his own, and leaves. Uh... okay? The rest of us head to the newbie player's house (she wanted a middle lifestyle and that's cool). The face does some computer research with the streetsam while I call a street doc contact who happens to work near the area the courier disappeared at. We manage to get a reasonable idea of where the gang hangs out (a warehouse district on the east side side of town).

Unbeknownst to us, the shaman meanwhile turned into owl form and went for a night flight around where the courier was last scene. The GM, pulling his own teeth so that the shaman wouldn't forever be flying in literal circles the entire night, gave a few clues that helped the shaman come to the same conclusion we did. The shaman even spots the courier's car, so maybe he knows which warehouse we shout infiltrate first. Time to go back and call us, right?

Haha, that's cute.

Nah, the shaman quietly flies into the warehouse, perches on a high beam, and just watches the gang inside. Back to us, we stake out the neighborhood in the Face's car. The warehouses here are old, dark, and most aren't even used anymore. Great place for hiding. Lots of shadows. A gang would love it here to lay low. But, for whatever reason, one of the gangers opens fire on the car from a second floor window. Odd cause if they kept quiet we would have driven right by them. The face speeds off to hide the car and we get out to try sneaking in the shadows. Except the GM describes the warehouse as being in the middle of a concrete field with working lights on all sides, so there's no place to sneak up to the building. My character is a bit trigger itchy, so I take a shot at the sniper and head-shot him with a sound-suppressed SMG. Yes, awesome shot is awesome!

Okay, call the shaman. No answer. We leave a message (not that he'd get it because he left all his gear at his apartment when he went owl form).

A half dozen human gangers come pouring out to attack us. Contrary to what we were told, these weren't low-level poorly armed gangers. They had burst-fire weapons with laser sights, a grenade launcher, and the gang leader had a smartlinked machine gun. Alright so it's a straight up fight then. We do our best using cover and tactics to get around the gang and flank them. For low-level gangers, they were throwing an average of 17 dice on their attacks. The GM also kept forgetting that we get Reaction rolls to dodge the attacks before soaking damage. He also kept forgetting that I have a second Initiative Pass, and then complained about me being OP for gunning down two gangers in just two passes with my SMG. Uh, maybe because we're professional runners and these people should be low-level mooks? I mean, the Johnson's description made this mission feel a bit like a milk run and that was fine since it's a good way to help the newbie learn the rules and get comfortable. We can focus on interactions and RP.

Instead the newbie nearly died despite her best precautions and use of cover. And the GM seemed actually annoyed at that. I'm not sure what he expected when he gunned down the streetsam with burst fire from three gangers throwing 17-dice attack pools and failing to remember rules like distance penalties and cover. The face went back to his car and drove it at the warehouse, running over two gangers. I took down two more gangers with wide bursts (human mooks with 17-dice soak pools? Seems legit) and the streetsam managed two kills. I then pull out the first aid kit (rating 6) and patch up the streetsam. The GM was arguing that no, you don't get the rating as a bonus to your first aid dice pool. I had to actually open the rule book to the page where it says yes you do and shove it in his face. We recover the package, loot some bodies and leave the scene.

Trivia point here--what really killed the game for me was the loot. We picked up five Ares Predator IV pistols (with laser sights), a holdout pistol, and a cred stick with 300 nuyen on it. The pistols were not modified, which then had me almost stand up and ask the GM where the heck did all the burst fire come from? Oh, the machine gun conveniently 'blew up' with the gang leader. And the grenade launcher they used had no more ammo (they fired it twice, missing us completely both times. The GM was legit pissed at his dice that they missed). You know, cause game balance or something.

And where was the shaman the entire time? Still in owl form up on the perch. Watched the whole fight and didn't help at all. Nice. So he flies back to his place, changes back, and calls us pretending to know where the warehouse was. We tell him we already finished the job. Where were you? Well, we get paid (and the shaman is damn lucky we still gave him a handout. We could have cut him out entirely on pay).

So that was our first session playing Shadowrun with this GM.

And that was also the last session of us playing Shadowrun with this GM.

I dunno what it is, but the past 2-3 GMs my group has invited to run games for us are all lousy with rules. Should see the stories of my D&D ranger from another GM if you hadn't before. The Face's player offered to run the game himself so maybe we'll do that next time we meet up.

[Dimers]

Daaaang. Too bad you had to waste the mooks -- woulda been nice to hire guys who swing around seventeen dice like it's no big. Most of my 400BP builds don't even put their specialty that high.

[Telwar]

...devil's advocation here, maybe they were (a) using funky experimental super-super machine guns that were sooooooper accurate and hit like trucks, but had a chance to cook off as a HE grenade on the user...

the explosions of which were cunningly timed to act as an ablative armor matrix, giving them serious soak against your attacks, and serving as soak for their own explosions?

...while adding both their Professional Rating of 4 and their Threat Rating of 4 (WHAT DO YOU MEAN THOSE DON'T STACK OR EXIST IN THE SAME EDITION LOLRITE!?!?)...

Oof, that's about as much as I can pull out of my butt for this. Sorry, that bites, man. :(

[comicshorse]

Daaaang. Too bad you had to waste the mooks -- woulda been nice to hire guys who swing around seventeen dice like it's no big. Most of my 400BP builds don't even put their specialty that high.

And they say good help is hard to find :smallsmile:

Seriously if those were his Street gangers what the hell would the Red Samurai be like ?

[DigoDragon]

Daaaang. Too bad you had to waste the mooks -- woulda been nice to hire guys who swing around seventeen dice like it's no big. Most of my 400BP builds don't even put their specialty that high.

I know, right? Sadly they were pretty much run on mindless goon tactics. Wouldn't stop to hear the Face out at all and even after we killed their leader and half their numbers the remaining gangers just kept on gunning for us instead of doing the sensible thing and run. Kinda felt a bit video-gamey there.



Oof, that's about as much as I can pull out of my butt for this. Sorry, that bites, man. :(

*snerk* Well you did make me laugh a bit, so thanks for that. :3



Seriously if those were his Street gangers what the hell would the Red Samurai be like ?

I think if a Red Sam showed up I would just discard my character sheet into the paper shredder. It probably about right.

[Lord Torath]

2E/3E question:

How would you handle set strength melee weapons in the hands of someone stronger? Say, a Supershock Stun Baton (S8 Serious Stun) in the hands of a Strength 9 Troll (Club does Str+1 Medium Stun)?

[LibraryOgre]

2E/3E question:

How would you handle set strength melee weapons in the hands of someone stronger? Say, a Supershock Stun Baton (S8 Serious Stun) in the hands of a Strength 9 Troll (Club does Str+1 Medium Stun)?

With Stun Weapons designed for bludgeoning, I had them do two separate damages... one from the strength of the character, the second from the strength of the charge. Any damage done by one doesn't increase the difficulty of resisting the other, and it makes it a lot more likely that you get stun overflow into physical damage... it's how my stun-baton weilding physad kept killing people. You couldn't effectively "pull" the stun-charge damage, though you could poke someone with it and do stun-charge damage without doing beatdown damage (and that was prefered by a lot of people, since "I touch you" is a lot easier to pull off than "I hit you hard enough to hurt").

It makes them nasty, and preferred by security forces.

[Lord Torath]

Physical Adepts can take "Killing Hands" as a power, letting their fists inflict Physical damage. What would "Shocking Hands" look like, other than simply wearing Shock Gloves (7S Stun-Shock + Str-1 M stun)?

Bare hands already do Str M stun damage. Level 1 could add a Shock (+2 to target numbers for a time based on Attack Strength and target's Body/Willpower) effect to the hit. Level 2 increases damage to Str S stun, and level 3 increases the damage to Str D stun

Killing Hands costs 0.5/1/2/4 points per level (in 2E).
Shocking Hands could be 0.5/1/2 per level.

Sound reasonable? I'd consider taking it, if not for the -1 reach penalty for unarmed attacks...

[LibraryOgre]

I'd lean towards there being a cost that grants you a certain level of shock damage... like, 1 point gets you a (Magic)L shock, 3 points gets you a (Magic)M shock, 6 points gets you a (Magic)S shock. Even at 1 point, it's a useful power, but a lot easier to overcome.

[comicshorse]

But this is a Physical Adept power you can't call it 'Shocking Hands' . It needs to be Death Touch or Nerve Strike for the proper Martial Arts feel :smallcool:

[LibraryOgre]

But this is a Physical Adept power you can't call it 'Shocking Hands' . It needs to be Death Touch or Nerve Strike for the proper Martial Arts feel :smallcool:

Eh, Shadowrun, even 2nd edition, is far enough into it that you start getting folks who are more techno in their approach to physical adeptness.

[Telwar]

The SR4 version is Elemental Strike, and costs 0.5 points, and has Killing Hands as a prerequisite, giving your unarmed strike an Elemental rider, like Electricity, Fire, METAL, etc, fwiw.

[comicshorse]

This was brought up in another thread but I thought the upcoming 'mostly Shadowrun' movie would be of interest in this thread

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bright_(film)

[Lord Torath]

Another 2E question: How do shock weapons work against vehicles, or really, paranormal animals with hardened armor (dragons, juggernauts, etc.)?

Obviously, damage is staged down one level. Armor counts as a barrier, while body counts as armor. So a juggernaut has Body 15 Armor 8. Shock weapons halve the effective impact armor. I presume that would affect the 15 points of body armor, but would it also apply to the hardened armor? If it only applies to the body armor, the final armor value would be 15/2+8 = 15.5, rounded up to 16 if it's an opponent to the PCs, or rounded down to 15 if it's friendly with the PCs (for whatever reason). If it applies to all the armor, the final value would be 11.5, rounded as normal.

[comicshorse]

Shock weapons do Stun damage and, as far as I'm aware, vehicles just don't take stun damage so they are going to do nothing at all to vehicles. After all you can't stun a car.

Against a Juggernaut its Hardened armour acts as a Barrier Rating which means if the power of the weapon does not exceed the Barrier Rating it does NO damage. If the Juggernaut has Hardened Armour of 8 that means you need a Power 9 weapon to have any chance of hurting it and I don't think there are any Power 9 shock weapons.

Incidentally any PC who uses a shock weapon on a Juggernaut deserves, IMHO, a round of applause from the table for his valiant, if very brief, act of bravery :smallcool:

[Dimers]

Huh. 4e has rules for the non-damage effects of shock on vehicles/drones/devices along with what creatures face. There's still no "Stun" damage, but they can get knocked outta commission for a few turns. Kinda surprised that's not in 2e.

[Lord Torath]

Shock weapons do Stun damage and, as far as I'm aware, vehicles just don't take stun damage so they are going to do nothing at all to vehicles. After all you can't stun a car.

Against a Juggernaut its Hardened armour acts as a Barrier Rating which means if the power of the weapon does not exceed the Barrier Rating it does NO damage. If the Juggernaut has Hardened Armour of 8 that means you need a Power 9 weapon to have any chance of hurting it and I don't think there are any Power 9 shock weapons.

Incidentally any PC who uses a shock weapon on a Juggernaut deserves, IMHO, a round of applause from the table for his valiant, if very brief, act of bravery :smallcool:Okay, pretend we're attacking a Behemoth. Body:10 Hardened Armor: 4. Or a human wearing Military Grade Heavy armor. Is the hardened armor halved (along with the body armor in the case of the Behemoth) against Shock weapons?

[comicshorse]

Okay, pretend we're attacking a Behemoth. Body:10 Hardened Armor: 4. Or a human wearing Military Grade Heavy armor. Is the hardened armor halved (along with the body armor in the case of the Behemoth) against Shock weapons?

Ah Shadowrun, how I love the background, how I hate the rules.
From flicking through my books I really can't find rules for how Heavy Armour effects shock weapons. However one of the modifications available for Military Grade Heavy armour in the 'Cannon Companion' is to make it non-conductive against shock attacks so I'd say that indicates a weakness to them. So I'd say halve the Hardened Armour YMMV

[Misereor]

5.ed. question:
A mage hurls a lightning ball spell at a car carrying a bunch of policlubbers. What happens?
The car is resting on 4 rubber wheels, and the metal parts of the chassis act like a lightning rod, so does nothing happen? Do the electronics get fried? Do the passengers take some sort of damage after barrier reduction?

[jindra34]

5.ed. question:
A mage hurls a lightning ball spell at a car carrying a bunch of policlubbers. What happens?
The car is resting on 4 rubber wheels, and the metal parts of the chassis act like a lightning rod, so does nothing happen? Do the electronics get fried? Do the passengers take some sort of damage after barrier reduction?

Well start by tossing all the real world physics expectations out the window. Second, given what is described with suppressive fire everyone inside the car and the area of ball lightning would take damage as if the car wasn't there... there was a note in my last team that vehicles are more moving inevitable death traps than anything else.

[Telok]

I seem to recall 2nd or 3rd having a taser-ized spike strip specifically to fryolate cars. You could check for that.

[Lord Torath]

5.ed. question:
A mage hurls a lightning ball spell at a car carrying a bunch of policlubbers. What happens?
The car is resting on 4 rubber wheels, and the metal parts of the chassis act like a lightning rod, so does nothing happen? Do the electronics get fried? Do the passengers take some sort of damage after barrier reduction?Just as far as real-world physics is concerned, rubber tires do squat when it comes to protecting against lightning. A lightning bolt that's traveled through miles of air is not going to be stopped by four inches of rubber. The reason you are generally safe in your car is that electricity flows around the outside of a conductor rather than through the middle of it. As long as you don't touch the frame of your car, you should be safe. You know, assuming you're not in a convertible. :smallwink:

As soon as magic gets involved, though, all bets are off.

[Andrewmoreton]

IIRC If the lightning bolt is a manipulation spell it hits the vehicle and does damage as per the normal rules for shooting at a vehicle, it the people in the vehicle are behind a barrier they are safe from the direct effect of the spell unless it breaches the barrier, the same as if a Grenade hit the vehicle.

If it is a combat spell if they are in LOS of the casting mage everything visible to the mage gets hit by the Lightning ball , the vehicle and all visible gangers. This is way all vehicles in Shadowrun have tinted windows opaque from the outside and why you should not lean out of the window to shoot at a mage but instead have a firing port installed so you can fire out without giving the mage LOS

[Dimers]

I think I just found an unintended cheat in 4th-ed. The Data Bomb program can be set to crash the node it's protecting. So you hack in and you set the bomb on the node you just hacked. Then any later time you want to crash the node, just have an Agent or virus or whatever go say 'hi' to it. The bomb's crash function seems to work automatically, no contest needed.

Anybody want to disabuse me of this foolish notion?

[DigoDragon]

I think I just found an unintended cheat in 4th-ed. The Data Bomb program can be set to crash the node it's protecting. So you hack in and you set the bomb on the node you just hacked. Then any later time you want to crash the node, just have an Agent or virus or whatever go say 'hi' to it. The bomb's crash function seems to work automatically, no contest needed.

Anybody want to disabuse me of this foolish notion?

I recall running a game where the hacker did that. It's like setting a trap, but one you know of and can set off yourself. Unless the system's security finds it first and has some ability to disable it, it's legit. It's a helpful trick against security when your team is leaving the scene. Crash their camera network or communication if it's tied to a central command station/operator.

[Misereor]

Ok, I read up on it some more, and I think I'm starting to figure it out.
Ball Lightning is not a mana spell, so you can't make it manifest inside the vehicle even if you have LoS to the passengers. The spell emanates from the caster and travels to the target.
Normally you would target either the car or the passengers, then resolve either an attack vs vehicle which doesn't hurt the passengers, or an attack vs the passengers in which the vehicle acts as a barrier and/or cover depending on circumstance. However, seeing as this is an area spell (force 10 in this instance), both vehicle and passengers are in the Area of Effect and take damage (passengers get barrier/cover depending on windscreen/chassis rating), and I have to resolve both.
(I'm also thinking of going back to 2nd edition...)