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Advance Strat..
2007-07-20, 09:02 AM
I recently started playing D&D (all of it here on this forum, currently in my second game) and I'm starting to get a handle on things more or less. I was looking up stuff on the d20 and decided that the next time I make a character, I'd like to try out a paladin.

Now, with my knowledge of D&D coming almost entirely from order of the stick, and then after seeing things about it here, it seems like it's pretty hard to play a real paladin that isn't just a stuck up little brat, with the prerequisite stick from behind.

So here's a question for you guys. How SHOULD you play a paladin that won't end up making the other players, whether in or out of character, want to poison your next meal?

Kaelaroth
2007-07-20, 09:09 AM
It is very very very very very hard.

Generally, however hard you try, your character will go nuts with all the sin and debauchery that goes on within an adventuring party.

Here are my suggestions to make sure that won't happen.
1. Don't be too extreme. Only deal with problems that can't immediately solve themselves.
2. If the characters are going to a Thieve's Guild, for example, don't go. Keep out of business that will force you character to get upset.
3. Don't question their decisions. Overall, you are a party, rather than a crusade. Democracy is what matters, so do not try and force your friends into joining in, and make sure you don't point-blank refuse to help out in something that may not seem LG. If an act is evil, obviously don't do it, but otherwise, go with the flow.
4. Make excuses for your possible evil actions. "That shop-keeper who my friend stole from beat his children. It is clear "THE LIGHT" acted through my friend, forthwith I do not need to get annoyed over it."


I hope I was helpful.

PlatinumJester
2007-07-20, 09:11 AM
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm

Play one of these varients.

JellyPooga
2007-07-20, 09:13 AM
Simple...take the stick out.

- Don't assume that others are automatically in the wrong
- Don't constantly go on about how holier-than-thou you are
- "Have a break" *snap* "Have a chocolate confection"...or if you're unfamiliar with british advertising, have the character relax once in a while.
- Lose some of the arrogance

Paladins are people too, and given the proliferation of high Charisma Paladins, I'm not entirely sure why so many are played as the 'stick-up-the-bum' stereotype (which would indicate a low Cha).

Serpentine
2007-07-20, 09:15 AM
I'm assuming you're just gonna go with the core LG paladin. I'd suggest that most of the stick-up-the-bum stuff comes from too great an emphasis on the "Lawful" part and not enough on the "Good". Certainly don't break any laws that you know of if you can help it, and perhaps try to influence your companions to do the same, or even outright frown upon their illicit dealings, but don't threaten to clap the rogue in chains every time he tells a little fib. Sometimes, doing Good involves bending the rules, but as long as you do your best to stick to them whenever you're able and encourage others to do the same, only the strictest of gods would disgrace you.

MoelVermillion
2007-07-20, 09:15 AM
Perhaps you could try roleplaying a paladin who starts as a stick up the ass tightly wound jerk, but slowly learns to loosen up a little and realizes that he doesn't have to follow his code to the letter aslong as he makes sure to do the morally right thing is all situations.

factotum
2007-07-20, 09:20 AM
I don't think you can find a better example than a nicely-played paladin than Hinjo. He's strict when he needs to be, but most of the time he treats people (even evil scumbags like Belkar) with a degree of respect entirely lacking in Miko's demeanour.

In short, don't take Miko as your guide to Paladins--she's part Monk anyway, it probably twisted her brain :smallsmile: .

Saph
2007-07-20, 09:20 AM
OotS and discussions on these boards are a really, really bad introduction to paladins. ;)

Have a closer look at the paladin fluff. Do you see anything in there that says: "Must act like a complete a**hole at all times?" How about anything that says "Is required to always be a stuck up brat?" No? Then what's making you play like that? Nothing. You've just gotten a skewed perpective because of the threads and comics.

To be a paladin, you have to be Lawful Good, act honourably, protect those in need, and respect legitimate authority. Notice something about those requirements? They're all focused around action - what you do. They don't say anything about how you do it, or what personality you have. So the idea that being a paladin dictates your personality is just flat wrong. You can be cheerful, grumpy, surly, reserved, pious, silent, enthusiastic, cynical, naive, careful, foolhardy, campy, serious - whatever you like. You should be able to fit virtually any non-chaotic and non-Evil personality to a paladin character with a little effort.

The personality of your character is determined by you and you alone. If you find your characters are loathed by the rest of the party, that's your fault, not the fault of the class you took. ;)

- Saph

PinkysBrain
2007-07-20, 09:30 AM
Have a closer look at the paladin fluff. Do you see anything in there that says: "Must act like a complete a**hole at all times?" How about anything that says "Is required to always be a stuck up brat?" No?
Yes, "nor will she continue an association with someone who consistently offends her moral code.". This makes working with neutral aligned mercenary and/or chaotic aligned robin hood types very hard in the long run.

Attilargh
2007-07-20, 09:32 AM
So here's a question for you guys. How SHOULD you play a paladin that won't end up making the other players, whether in or out of character, want to poison your next meal?
Well, firstly, the other characters (and their players) must be made aware that the Paladin has a Code he must obey. A Paladin should not have to put up with a dark avenger who thinks nothing of beating a confession out of a villain and a wizard who'd fireball his way out of a barrel full of petrol.

A Paladin must "respect legitimate authority, act with honor, help those in need, and punish those who harm or threaten innocents", which isn't all that restrictive. Furthermore, only a gross violation of the code leads to the loss of class abilities, which gives a bit more leeway.

I say simply play a Paladin like you would a Lawful Good Fighter who believes in something, and you shouldn't have any trouble.

Advance Strat..
2007-07-20, 09:34 AM
OotS and discussions on these boards are a really, really bad introduction to paladins. ;)

Have a closer look at the paladin fluff. Do you see anything in there that says: "Must act like a complete a**hole at all times?" How about anything that says "Is required to always be a stuck up brat?" No? Then what's making you play like that? Nothing. You've just gotten a skewed perpective because of the threads and comics.

- Saph

Yeah that's probably very true. Like I said, I just recently started playing. In my second game now, and I used the same character in both (a lawful good fighter, since I figured that would be easiest for a nooby noob like me :D)
I'm probably not gonna actually roll up said paladin until either my fighter gets killed somehow, or I play another game that he just won't be in for whatever reason. But I figured I might as well get help now before I need the info.


And I didn't think about Hinjo for some reason, but that's a pretty good point, i'll have to go back and take a look at his comics again sometime.

Advance Strat..
2007-07-20, 09:42 AM
Well, firstly, the other characters (and their players) must be made aware that the Paladin has a Code he must obey. A Paladin should not have to put up with a dark avenger who thinks nothing of beating a confession out of a villain and a wizard who'd fireball his way out of a barrel full of petrol.

I assume that means that if 2 PC's start out, with one being a paladin and one being a dark avenger or something, we should expect a reroll in the near future for one of them?

Saph
2007-07-20, 09:47 AM
Yes, "nor will she continue an association with someone who consistently offends her moral code."

No. It says "will not associate with someone who consistently offends her moral code". It does not say: "must be an a**hole," nor does it say "must be a stuck up brat." This isn't rocket science.


This makes working with neutral aligned mercenary and/or chaotic aligned robin hood types very hard in the long run.

Pretty much any Lawful character, if played properly, is going to have at least some problems with a chaotic Robin Hood type. How you deal with those problems, though, is up to you.


I assume that means that if 2 PC's start out, with one being a paladin and one being a dark avenger or something, we should expect a reroll in the near future for one of them?

Well, sometimes. There really are better ways to deal with intra-party conflict, though. At the simplest level, the Dark Avenger type moderates his behaviour when he's around the paladin, and the paladin doesn't monitor what the Dark Avenger's doing when he's not around.

- Saph

Dausuul
2007-07-20, 09:49 AM
I recently started playing D&D (all of it here on this forum, currently in my second game) and I'm starting to get a handle on things more or less. I was looking up stuff on the d20 and decided that the next time I make a character, I'd like to try out a paladin.

Now, with my knowledge of D&D coming almost entirely from order of the stick, and then after seeing things about it here, it seems like it's pretty hard to play a real paladin that isn't just a stuck up little brat, with the prerequisite stick from behind.

So here's a question for you guys. How SHOULD you play a paladin that won't end up making the other players, whether in or out of character, want to poison your next meal?

*shrug* Don't be a stuck-up little brat. All that's required of you as a paladin is that you behave honorably, don't commit evil deeds, and don't knowingly hang out with evil people. (And the last item is more of a guideline than a rule, since there are no penalties for a paladin who does hang out with evil people.)

As long as your fellow PCs are of good or neutral alignment, you shouldn't have too many problems. In the 2E Player's Handbook it commented that paladins know most people can't live up to their high standards, and accept that. Part of being a paladin is humility, and recognizing that other people do good in their own ways.

Case in point: Say you find out that the party rogue stole some money, as rogues are wont to do. Ask her to give it back--don't demand it, just ask her, as one friend to another. If she refuses, explain that you can't honorably accept a share of the money, and consider paying back the original owner out of your own pocket; whether you do that will depend largely on whether you think the original owner deserves the money.

What you shouldn't do is turn the rogue in to the authorities. The rogue is (I hope!) a loyal companion who has stood by you many times in the battle against Evil. That outweighs a little petty larceny.

Attilargh
2007-07-20, 09:50 AM
I assume that means that if 2 PC's start out, with one being a paladin and one being a dark avenger or something, we should expect a reroll in the near future for one of them?
Well, I can't see why the Paladin would stick around, and even being with him in the first place might make my eyebrow rise. Of course, that goes for any character who tries to have some honour.

SolkaTruesilver
2007-07-20, 09:52 AM
And don't forget 1 of the thing in the Paladin Code:

You should not associate with people who constantly violate your code. (I think, please correct if I am off)

The word here, is CONSTANTLY

So, even if you cannot condone (and will not take profit of) a chaotic or "borderline evil" actions, you can support them, if they are not too frequent. And try to convince other party member to do the "right" things, but don't get upset at them (in-character) if they don't agree with you.

After all, Jesus went eating with Zaché. He hanged around bad people. He didn't forced them to become good, he simply tried to put up the good example. I am not a personnal fan of religion IRL, but I think it's a pretty good example on why you would associate with less-than-respectable peoples.

Zim
2007-07-20, 09:58 AM
I once played a paladin who swore, drank and was a generally a mess. He was an ex-soldier (minor NCO) of a rough and tumble infantry unit who was "tapped" by his god for a higher purpose. The whole "touched by the gods" thing was a bit much for him to take, and he paid for it by being a LG trainwreck of a person. None of his personality defects violated his Code, but it made him a little more interesting to play and interact with.

I found that playing a paladin in a not straight up good party is very difficult. Often, PCs will do bad things to good, bad and neutral people. A paladin should act a moral compass and lead by example, not by being a nag. Try to be compassionate and understanding about their motives, and try to steer them away from the extremes without cramping their style too much.

Also remember that the other players have as much obligation to make your PC playable as you do theirs. Before you introduce the character, make sure that everyone is aware of the implications that having a paladin in the party have. If there is some opposition to your choice of PC then try to compromise. If there is total opposition, then don't play one.

Tyger
2007-07-20, 09:58 AM
And remember, personality first, paladin second.

My favorite paladin of all time was a paladin of the goddess of love. He was a staunch warrior, a great comrade, and was constantly matchmaking. Not to mention wooing the ladies (though not going "all the way" as that would not be honorable outside of a formal union) while being very upfront about his intentions. Yes, he did scold the rogue for his light fingered ways, but he wasn't an asshat about it. And neither do you need to be.

If you are going be OotS, as someone already pointed out, use the Hinjo example rather than Miko... after all, we saw what happened to Miko n'est pas?

Advance Strat..
2007-07-20, 10:02 AM
And don't forget 1 of the thing in the Paladin Code:

You should not associate with people who constantly violate your code. (I think, please correct if I am off)

The word here, is CONSTANTLY

So, even if you cannot condone (and will not take profit of) a chaotic or "borderline evil" actions, you can support them, if they are not too frequent. And try to convince other party member to do the "right" things, but don't get upset at them (in-character) if they don't agree with you.

After all, Jesus went eating with Zaché. He hanged around bad people. He didn't forced them to become good, he simply tried to put up the good example. I am not a personnal fan of religion IRL, but I think it's a pretty good example on why you would associate with less-than-respectable peoples.

Fittingly enough, I'm actually Christian, so I'm quite familiar with that story. :smallbiggrin:

I do see the point your making there. Show someone the path, and help them follow it, but don't shove them into it, or rebuke them forever for one or two slip ups.

Slight difference though with Zacheus and D&D PC's is that Zacheus was specifically looking for Jesus, and hoped to see him (albeit didn't expect him to up and say "hey zack! You wanna have lunch together?") while some PC's may not exactly be as open to hearing about it as much. Some characters may be willing to, but your also gonna get those characters that would rather stab the paladin's leg then listen to anything about it. Might be a bit extreme, but you get my point probably.

Advance Strat..
2007-07-20, 10:09 AM
I once played a paladin who swore, drank and was a generally a mess. He was an ex-soldier (minor NCO) of a rough and tumble infantry unit who was "tapped" by his god for a higher purpose. The whole "touched by the gods" thing was a bit much for him to take, and he paid for it by being a LG trainwreck of a person. None of his personality defects violated his Code, but it made him a little more interesting to play and interact with.

Oh I can imagine the hilarity that must have taken place in that game. A drunkard paladin... that's freaking hilarious.

Quick question, and I can probably already guess the answer but...


tapped? what exactly does a tapping entail?

PinkysBrain
2007-07-20, 10:13 AM
Pretty much any Lawful character, if played properly, is going to have at least some problems with a chaotic Robin Hood type. How you deal with those problems, though, is up to you.
They are going to have problems with them, but those problems don't entail losing their class ability if the situation persists. A campaign filled with this simmering just below the surface, and sometimes flaring up, is easily possible without a paladin ... but not with one.

The OotS could not exist if Roy was a Paladin.

Saph
2007-07-20, 10:15 AM
I once played a paladin who swore, drank and was a generally a mess. He was an ex-soldier (minor NCO) of a rough and tumble infantry unit who was "tapped" by his god for a higher purpose. The whole "touched by the gods" thing was a bit much for him to take, and he paid for it by being a LG trainwreck of a person. None of his personality defects violated his Code, but it made him a little more interesting to play and interact with.

A good paladin personality model along those lines is Bruce Willis from the Die Hard movies. He defends the law, always tries to do the right thing, risks his life to help others without hesitating, and does it all with no thought of reward. He's also a foul-mouthed borderline alchoholic and an a**hole, but he's an entertaining a**hole, and the one thing no-one's going to call him is a stuck-up brat. Not more than once, anyway. Remember, Paladins have to be Good. They do not have to be nice. :)


They are going to have problems with them, but those problems don't entail losing their class ability if the situation persists.

Paladins lose their class abilities for willingly committing an evil act, for ceasing to be Lawful Good, and for grossly violating the Paladin code of conduct. That's it. A Paladin cannot lose their class abilities through associating with people.

- Saph

AslanCross
2007-07-20, 10:22 AM
I tend to prefer interpreting the paladin as Lawful GOOD rather than LAWFUL Good. I heard the paladin was originally intended to be the latter, but I find that version so hackneyed (and hacked-to-pieces by detractors) that it's just not fun to play anymore. Since the core rules define Lawful Good as a combination of honor and compassion, I always make sure that the compassion aspect is not ignored. True, you will not tolerate evil acts done by your companions, but you don't have to talk down to them and be a jerk (which is not compassionate) to show you don't tolerate it. I prefer a quiet lead-by-example approach that involves a lot of understanding. Sometimes your paladin might even feel a sad resignation to the evil around him.

I find it even better to have a paladin admit that he struggles with internal issues. He (or she) constantly struggles with internal demons. He knows what is right and what is wrong and knows that he is just as capable of evil as he is good. He knows he has to do right but finds that the common definition of right is sometimes not enough. (Though not necessary, this may lead to the Gray Guard prestige class from Complete Scoundrel)

Furthermore, LG does not prevent someone from being sarcastic, from having a soft spot for ladies, or from being a frustrated artist, singer or lute player. I'm pretty sure that if a Paladin has at least a positive wisdom modifier, he'd be aware that he's just as capable of evil as the next guy---and thus he'd keep himself in check as well.

JEntropy
2007-07-20, 10:23 AM
The key to playing a stickless paladin is finding a personality for this righteous warrior template that isn't self-righteous.

Avoid holier-than-thou at all costs. I think most of us have a moral code, but do you go around telling people off if they don't do things the way you think they should (internet and interstate excepted)?

I would play the character as someone who is divinely inspired, and humble about his blessing. He remains true to his values without trying to restrict the way the party operates, or ever telling one of its members how they should act, unless its a gross violation of the code (read: burning down an orphanage), but instead being the guy to pick them up when they fall. You should make a fairly good case for following what you consider the "right" path, given the blessings your deity has directly conferred onto you as you gain levels. Will the rogue stop stealing? No, but he/she should be at least moderately influenced by the fact that a touch from your hands will heal deep wounds and cure diseases.

The real key, for me, is holding yourself (and only yourself) to that standard.

This being said, as far as the paladin's complications with his party's less-than-honourable methods, I'd try and draw from RL for perspective. I think most of us have a moral code; personally, some of my best friends did things that went totally against what I considered right and good, but I am able to dissociate their actions from mine and still enjoy a positive relationship with them.

A paladin should work the same way. You're only so powerful, and without direct divine intercession, you're bound to land in a situation that prohibits you from continuing to quest for the glory of your deity. You need the help of an adventuring party, as a means to your end, to fill the gaps that you can't. That seems like a very cynical way to look at the party, but I think ultimately we all join groups for personal reasons, even if our reasons for staying, over time, are different from our original reasons.

Zim
2007-07-20, 10:29 AM
Yeah, he was kinda like that. He had a 3 day beard, tarnished and dented armour, and a very poor attitude. He still fought the good fight, just without the the whole shining knight BS.

BTW "tapped" in this case refers to being selected by his god. Basically the god saw a diamond in the rough (very rough) and called him to service. The character did not seek paladinhood, it sought him. What, are YOU gonna tell your god "no thanks, I have better plans"? Makes for a reluctant hero with issues.

cody.burton
2007-07-20, 10:30 AM
Some characters may be willing to, but your also gonna get those characters that would rather stab the paladin's leg then listen to anything about it. Might be a bit extreme, but you get my point probably.

If that's the case, you need to sit down and have an adult talk with your group. You should come to some sort of an agreement about this so you don't have interparty conflict the first session with some CS player saying, "But I'm just roleplaying! My character is supposed to hate paladins!" If you're okay with that, that's fine, but it's nice to know beforehand. (Yes, this is from personal experience - I've been burned by a lot of CS people.)

Jayabalard
2007-07-20, 10:35 AM
my advice: play the character, not the alignment.

Work with the GM to come up with your own, personal, code of conduct. Be much more specific about what you believe in than what the paladin code of conduct says. Things to include in it:

How your character handles granting mercy/surrendering enemies.
What are your responsibilities for being a champion of the light when not in battle?
Views on the redemption of evil and lawlessness; this may give you a little freedom override the "not associate with those those that offend your moral code"
What does it mean to be Honorable? What are some things that are not ok to do in battle?
What sort of holy paladin order are you a member of? Does it have any specific rules (this also helps specify "legitimate authority")
Do you have any secular responsibilities; do you owe allegiance to a noble as a "knight" or something similar (again, this helps specify "legitimate authority")
Have you made any sort of Chivalric Vows? Do you tithe part of you income?
If you have to pick your battles, what things offend your moral code the most?

and so on. Once you and the DM agree, it will probably make removing that stick alot easier.

Mike_Lemmer
2007-07-20, 10:41 AM
Personally, the best paladin I've seen played had a Saul/Paul background; he did some terrible things in the past, saw the Light, atoned, and took a new life as a holy man. He acts friendly & forgiving with his companions because he once made the same mistakes they did, yet he keeps trying to nudge them to the Light.

I'd also use Shepherd Book from Firefly as a template: tolerant of their crimes but constantly acting as a moral compass, with heap of badassness on the side. I think it's telling that even after Book leaves the crew because he's afraid they're "corrupting him", he's willing to offer them haven and they're willing to ask him for advice & guidance.

Person_Man
2007-07-20, 10:42 AM
A well played Paladin is one of the most rewarding roleplaying experiences you can have. A poorly played Paladin is one of the worst things a gaming group can suffer through.

Decide what you think Lawful Good means.

Is it more important to always tell the truth, or to obtain the right outcome? Would you lie if it meant you might be able to save lives?

Do you believe that you are the hand of your god here to judge and deal justice, or do you believe that all sentient beings, no matter how vile, are entitled to a fair trial by the acknowledged law enforcement of the land?

Are you a paragon of self control, or a righteous sword of fury?

Do you always treat others with politeness and respect regardless of their station, or should people learn to respect the divine order of society?

Are you loyal first to your ideals, or do you respect and trust the superior wisdom and experience of your superiors when making decisions?

Are you willing to go to any length to protect life, or is life worth sacrificing in order to serve justice, duty, honor, or your god?

Should you always be generous and give freely of your time and possessions to those in need, or do you need to teach people to fish if you want them to eat tomorrow when you're not here?


Once you figure this out, put it into a workable code of honor. For new players, I find that its usually best to make it a hierarchical list. Then share this list with the DM and other PCs, and TALK ABOUT IT to make sure everyone is on board with your roleplaying aspirations. They need not agree with you, they need not act with you 100% of the time. But they need to accept that you're going to attempt your best shot at playing a devoutly Lawful Good character, and you have to accept the fact that not everyone should be killed or punished just because they don't see the world the same way your PC does.

Do that, and you should have a great time.

ArmorArmadillo
2007-07-20, 10:45 AM
Here's how I play my paladin:
Golden Rule: Speak softly and carry a big stick.
1. Don't ever tell other party members what to do. Don't. Ever. They'll resent you.
2. Be encouraging, positive, and understanding whenever possible.
3. Heal others before yourself, give them the first share of treasure, volunteer for dangerous assignments, take the hits from monsters. Leadership means earning respects.
4. When nobody is saying anything and the plot hooks is already clear: take the initiative and boldly suggest that the party take it; it lets you "roleplay" leadership without having to boss others around.
5. Authority, condemnation, and morality are important for Paladins, but save those things for non-Critical NPCs. They don't have feelings to hurt.

PinkysBrain
2007-07-20, 11:21 AM
Paladins lose their class abilities for willingly committing an evil act, for ceasing to be Lawful Good, and for grossly violating the Paladin code of conduct. That's it.
Nowhere does it say that's an exclusive list.

A Paladin cannot lose their class abilities through associating with people.
There is nothing in the rules about Paladins never falling in any other way than described in the code of conduct section. If you want to make magical rocks fall on his head and kill him or make him fall is up to you as the DM, the way the world works concerning paladins and evil is expressed in an absolute statement.

Telonius
2007-07-20, 11:25 AM
The biggest problem in the rules is this line, and its interpretation:
While she may adventure with characters of any good or neutral alignment, a paladin will never knowingly associate with evil characters, nor will she continue an association with someone who consistently offends her moral code.

Some people take it to mean that the Paladin is required to never associate with anybody who doesn't live up to Paladin ideals. While that's one possible interpretation, I don't think it's a very reasonable one. The key words there are "consistently offends," and "moral code." I'll start with "moral code" first.

So, what is the Paladin's moral code? The rules only offer this:

A paladin must be of lawful good alignment and loses all class abilities if she ever willingly commits an evil act.

Additionally, a paladin’s code requires that she respect legitimate authority, act with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison, and so forth), help those in need (provided they do not use the help for evil or chaotic ends), and punish those who harm or threaten innocents.


Now a lot of people take the first sentence (loses all class abilities if she ever commits an evil act) as part of the paladin's moral code. I don't. This distinction (of whether or not it's part of the code) is crucially important to a lot of rules lawyering. If "never commit an evil act" is part of the paladin's code, then everybody they ever meet consistently offends that part of the code, and the paladin is required to be an a**hat and force everybody to the straight and narrow. I consider this silly, and therefore not what the game designers had in mind. I think it's merely an action and consequence thing; the gods grace you if you're especially good, and don't if you're not.

So, what is the paladin's code? Just what the second sentence says. Respect legitimate authority, act with honor, help those in need, and punish those who harm or threaten innocents. That's all. You and your DM can work out additional requirements if you like, of course.

So, on to the next thing. "Consistently offends." This might mean actually doing something wrong, or could be saying something wrong. But it does have to be consistent. As in, if a character is forced to make a terrible moral choice and chooses the evil, the Paladin is not required to leave just because of that. Maybe it was an instance of bad judgment, maybe it was a relapse into an old habit. But a one-time failure does not require the Paladin to say goodbye to the other character. It has to be multiple occasions, over time.

Now personally I could see some exceptions being made to that. Some acts are so unspeakably evil that a Paladin probably wouldn't want to hang out with the person anyway. "I promise I'll never become a lich again," just isn't going to cut it. In a case like that it would make sense that a Paladin wouldn't want to hang around, regardless of what the rules say. But that should be handled in the roleplay, not in mechanical or rules arguments.

Advance Strat..
2007-07-20, 11:41 AM
A well played Paladin is one of the most rewarding roleplaying experiences you can have. A poorly played Paladin is one of the worst things a gaming group can suffer through.

Decide what you think Lawful Good means.

Is it more important to always tell the truth, or to obtain the right outcome? Would you lie if it meant you might be able to save lives?

Do you believe that you are the hand of your god here to judge and deal justice, or do you believe that all sentient beings, no matter how vile, are entitled to a fair trial by the acknowledged law enforcement of the land?

Are you a paragon of self control, or a righteous sword of fury?

Do you always treat others with politeness and respect regardless of their station, or should people learn to respect the divine order of society?

Are you loyal first to your ideals, or do you respect and trust the superior wisdom and experience of your superiors when making decisions?

Are you willing to go to any length to protect life, or is life worth sacrificing in order to serve justice, duty, honor, or your god?

Should you always be generous and give freely of your time and possessions to those in need, or do you need to teach people to fish if you want them to eat tomorrow when you're not here?


Once you figure this out, put it into a workable code of honor. For new players, I find that its usually best to make it a hierarchical list. Then share this list with the DM and other PCs, and TALK ABOUT IT to make sure everyone is on board with your roleplaying aspirations. They need not agree with you, they need not act with you 100% of the time. But they need to accept that you're going to attempt your best shot at playing a devoutly Lawful Good character, and you have to accept the fact that not everyone should be killed or punished just because they don't see the world the same way your PC does.

Do that, and you should have a great time.

I'm so gonna get ninja'd before I'm done with this, but I think I'll try to go through all these. I'm liking this list here.

Is it more important to always tell the truth, or to obtain the right outcome? Would you lie if it meant you might be able to save lives?

Obviously if it's for something silly like, a surprise party, I don't think any god's are gonna rebuke a paladin for not telling him about the cake he has to pick up. For the more likely things that are gonna come up, I would say he's not gonna be in favor of it, but if it comes down to either tell the truth, or let a villiage burn to the ground or something, he'll lie to save the villiage.

Do you believe that you are the hand of your god here to judge and deal justice, or do you believe that all sentient beings, no matter how vile, are entitled to a fair trial by the acknowledged law enforcement of the land?

Unless specifically needed, or told otherwise for whatever reason, I would say door number 2.

Are you a paragon of self control, or a righteous sword of fury?

I would say in general paladin's should be the first one, but I would like playing a paladin that might do the second one if he sees a great atrocity occur or something, like if for some strange reason, he went into nazi germany and witnessed the holocaust and all it's horror's or something, he'd probably snap at that one and look for the nearest Nazi encampment. Now that I'm thinking of that one, I can see people yelling at me now "rip off of anakin vs. the tuskin raiders in episode 2 noob!" but i seriously doubt that anakin is the only person that would snap if something like that happened. Probably would have to watch out for the gods not exactly liking that though.

Do you always treat others with politeness and respect regardless of their station, or should people learn to respect the divine order of society?

I would say he'd try to be polite and be respectful, although someone returning the favor by being a jerk would probably grate on his nerves a bit.

Are you loyal first to your ideals, or do you respect and trust the superior wisdom and experience of your superiors when making decisions?

This one I would probably need more information on the situation. There may be times where he'd trust the superiors to know what they're doing, or it may be something that seems so far off, he'd stick with his guns. If I had to pick, I'd say values, but that one really asks for more info.

Are you willing to go to any length to protect life, or is life worth sacrificing in order to serve justice, duty, honor, or your god?

Is this a roundabout way of asking about the death penalty, or are you asking something else here? I wanna make sure I know what your saying before I answer that one.

Should you always be generous and give freely of your time and possessions to those in need, or do you need to teach people to fish if you want them to eat tomorrow when you're not here?

I would say, yes he'll be willing to help out how he can, but for your example, if they don't know how to fish and they're really gonna need it, he'll teach them how to fish. There's a difference between helping out someone in need, and just being another version of welfare. But yeah, on a day to day thing he'd be willing to help out someone in need.


Long post already probably, so I put the original quote in spoilers for you guys.

Porthos
2007-07-20, 11:44 AM
If you are using the OotS as a guide, ask yourself at all times: What Would Hinjo Do? :smalltongue:

While he ain't perfect, he pretty much is the best representation I've seen of a Paladin in a long, long time. He has a sense of humor, deals with people fairly, isn't afraid to tell people that he is disappointed in them.... And he has a kick ass mount (and junk :smalltongue: ). What's not to like. :smallsmile:

If you prefer the more gruff type Paladin, then ask yourself: What Would O-Chul Do? :smallwink:

But if you just want a General Guide to Playing a Paladin, then I would simply suggest this. Ask yourself What Would Miko Do? And then do the precise opposite action! :smallbiggrin:

Anyway, being a Stuck Up Paladin Who Constantly Lectures Everyone Around Him is precisely the worst way to play the character. Lead by example. Show (and never, ever tell) everyone why they would want to be a Paladin. Be the most trustworthy, reliable person around. Always be around to lend a helping hand. And, yes, sometime gently suggest that it might not be a good idea to rob the Little Sisters of the Poor donation box. :smallwink:

In short be a friend. Once they realize how cool it is to be a Paladin, then maybe, just maybe, more of them will want to be like your character.

Lapak
2007-07-20, 11:51 AM
There has been a heck of a lot of good advice given in this thread. Another way to get a good look at the options out there for paladins is to look at good examples in other fiction - the Deed of Paksenarrion, the tales of King Arthur and his knights, and so on. Examples from literature and film often have real human personalities and flaws despite their moral forthrightness.

If you want the single easiest shortcut to making a standard knight-in-armor paladin get along with a group, there is a quick and simple way!

Remember that humility and modesty are virtues that have been respected ever since the 'noble knight' was conceived of. A Paladin works for what is right, but they can be humble enough, and wise enough, to know that they are not perfect. They may be MORE humble than most, knowing that they owe their strength to their god and their cause rather than any inherent goodness in themselves.

A paladin who takes the time to question whether he is right, to not take a situation for granted, who seeks the guidance of his trusted companions and his god rather than charging ahead, is a paladin that's not going to cause party tension. One that advises and leads by example, instead of demanding a change in behavior or trying to force one, is a paladin who remembers that she too is human, and she too might be wrong.

Paladins are supposed to be good guys, not braggarts or fanatics. Playing them with humility is the fastest path to party cohesion, in my opinion.

EDIT: Keeping in mind, of course, that even the most humble paladin brings the full force of their strength and their fury to bear when the right path is made clear; to do less would be to betray the cause they have been gifted to serve, and they would never put their own doubts above their cause that way.

Advance Strat..
2007-07-20, 12:01 PM
and just to throw another quick question out among all this quick. Smite evil. Exactly what are good times to use it. I've only seen it used in stick by Miko (not a good example) and in sapphire guard vs. xykon (an obvious well duh moment)

what other times would you normally use smite evil, besides the obvious "we're fighting an undead lych that wants to take over the world"

Saph
2007-07-20, 12:04 PM
Nowhere does it say that's an exclusive list.

I've no idea what you're getting at. If you house-rule that Paladins can fall by extra ways not listed in the PHB, that's your decision, but I don't see how that's going to apply to anyone else.

- Saph

SolkaTruesilver
2007-07-20, 12:22 PM
Well, first thing, look at your God's Dogma, and other things he wants you to follow.

I don't like the code told in the PHB, since it does not take into account the different philosophies presented by LG, NG or LN gods.

cody.burton
2007-07-20, 12:25 PM
and just to throw another quick question out among all this quick. Smite evil. Exactly what are good times to use it. I've only seen it used in stick by Miko (not a good example) and in sapphire guard vs. xykon (an obvious well duh moment)

what other times would you normally use smite evil, besides the obvious "we're fighting an undead lych that wants to take over the world"

When you use Smite Evil can be a good roleplaying technique. If your paladin is brash and quick to deal judgement, he may smite the first real threat that pings as evil. If he is cautious, he may wait until the last possible moment before using his resources for the day. If he believes strongly in redemption of evil, he may only smite those that have no possibility of redemption (undead, fiends, evil dragons in standard DnD).

Dausuul
2007-07-20, 12:32 PM
I've no idea what you're getting at. If you house-rule that Paladins can fall by extra ways not listed in the PHB, that's your decision, but I don't see how that's going to apply to anyone else.

- Saph

Indeed. The rules are quite specific on how paladins fall, and the non-association-with-bad-people clause is not part of that list. "A paladin won't associate with people who consistently offend her moral code" is a guideline on how to play a paladin, not an explicit rule; if it were an explicit rule, it would spell out the penalties for failing to obey it.

So how to follow that guideline? I would say you have to look at the person as a whole. Continuing with my earlier example, say you are a paladin and your party contains a rogue who is, shall we say, less than respectful of property rights. This rogue is brave, kindhearted, and stands to battle at your side (or, more likely, across from you in flanking position :smallwink:) when the forces of Evil attack. She also steals anything valuable that isn't nailed down, and brings along a prybar for anything that is. Does she "consistently offend your moral code?"

I would say no. She constantly offends your code, but not consistently; her behavior when there's a sparkly gem handy has to be weighed against her behavior when innocent children are about to be eaten by demons.

PinkysBrain
2007-07-20, 01:02 PM
So you would also say then that a Paladin with leadership could take a non LG cohort?

Morty
2007-07-20, 01:11 PM
So you would also say then that a Paladin with leadership could take a non LG cohort?

Speaking for myself, I wouldn't have any trouble with it. It could in fact lead to humorous RP situations.

Dausuul
2007-07-20, 01:15 PM
So you would also say then that a Paladin with leadership could take a non LG cohort?

The Leadership feat is part of the rules. One of the benefits under the rules is "You get a cohort." The Associates section under paladins says you can't get a non-LG cohort, so you can't use Leadership to get a non-LG cohort as a paladin.

On the other hand, if a Chaotic Good character asks to be your squire and you say yes, you don't lose your paladin abilities as a result. That character just doesn't count as a cohort for you.

tainsouvra
2007-07-20, 01:18 PM
How SHOULD you play a paladin that won't end up making the other players, whether in or out of character, want to poison your next meal? My method for that is actually quite simple: lead by example.

You don't need to tell them that breaking the law is wrong, just don't break the law and when they're busy hiding in the bushes from the authorities, you can walk right into the inn for a drink and a bath. They'll learn.

You don't need to tell them that working together is a good thing, just make a good plan and stick to it and when they see that good planning works while infighting doesn't...they'll learn.

Now, with most PC's being incredibly dense about these things, they might not actually learn anything...but it makes a good approach for the Paladin to take regardless. Show them how's it done, and eventually they'll see that it's just better that way. As long as no great evils are being done, let them figure it out by watching you.

(If great evils are being done by the party, you simply can't have a Paladin in that party. You're playing an evil campaign and a Paladin should be NPC-only.)

PinkysBrain
2007-07-20, 01:19 PM
The Associates section under paladins says you can't get a non-LG cohort, so you can't use Leadership to get a non-LG cohort as a paladin.
What makes one statement in that paragraph a guideline and the other a rule?

Dausuul
2007-07-20, 01:20 PM
What makes one statement in that paragraph a guideline and the other a rule?

The fact that one has meaning in terms of the rules and the other doesn't... unless you want to read that first sentence as saying, "You are physically unable to associate with characters of evil alignment. If you try to do so, the DM takes over your character and makes you walk away."

Amphimir Míriel
2007-07-20, 01:26 PM
Here's how I play my paladin:
Golden Rule: Speak softly and carry a big stick.
1. Don't ever tell other party members what to do. Don't. Ever. They'll resent you.
2. Be encouraging, positive, and understanding whenever possible.
3. Heal others before yourself, give them the first share of treasure, volunteer for dangerous assignments, take the hits from monsters. Leadership means earning respects.
4. When nobody is saying anything and the plot hooks is already clear: take the initiative and boldly suggest that the party take it; it lets you "roleplay" leadership without having to boss others around.
5. Authority, condemnation, and morality are important for Paladins, but save those things for non-Critical NPCs. They don't have feelings to hurt.

You win.

Really, this is one of the best tips on successful paladins I have ever read. I am going to keep this one in mind, along with Peregrine's writeup of a "Paladin Academy" lecture.

Jayabalard
2007-07-20, 01:34 PM
What makes one statement in that paragraph a guideline and the other a rule?all rules are just guidelines.

Burrito
2007-07-20, 01:53 PM
Look to see if some of the sub-types of Paladins fit your taste also. You may have to go back to some 2E stuff, and re-tune it to 3.5 but it could be a lot of fun. I had a Ghosthunter Paladin (less cleric powers, better Turning, immunity to some undead powers, etc) that became my favorite character ever. His main focus was the eradication of undead. He would go to the bars, swear, and oftern act like a normal PC, but when it came to Undead, that is when he would be the "Holy Sowrd of Flaming Justice" or whatever.

Remember, you can use the parties "GOAL" to your advantage. "I would love to stay and help the people in this villiage fight the zombie hoard, but I know that in the long run killing off the Lich controling them will save many more people." You could give them some weapon and fighting advice, but you don't have to stay and fight if you are off on a "Mission of greater good". Others have made this point, but I will add to it. Be prepared to be the party leader. Make decisions, be decisive, and be confident! Especially when dealing with NPC's. any Paladin knows their decisions will not always pan out, or even have opposite of their intended consequences, but they are prepared to adapt and change if need be. Negotiations fail with a badguy? Take him out. Being Lawful Good doesn't have to mean saying Please and Thank you until you are blue in the face. I've seen other play them like that....bleh.

Use your discretion. Cops let people off with warnings all the time, judges give out fines instead of jail time, etc.

I like paladins that are played like older small town cops or sheriffs. They aren't the hard charging rookies out to make a name for themselves. Instead, they have been around the block a time or two. They know that kids goofing off should be brought home to their parents, rather than to jail. Then can mediate an argument, rather than "It's my way or the highway." They can calm situations down rather than escalate. But they also know then someone needs an asskicking. There are some crimes that come with a zero tolerance policy that WILL bring down the wrath. Fair and honest, but an attitude that "I was young once too, and we are all human/demi-human." Willing to gladly go into the burning building to find one more person. Or shield someone with your body when the Breath Weapon comes. Also, willing to hack your way through masses of baddies to save a party member. anyway, hope that made some sense.

mudbunny
2007-07-20, 01:59 PM
It has been mentioned before, but I want to emphasize it again.

Talk with your DM, and, between the two of you, decide what your Paladin's code will be.

Superglucose
2007-07-20, 01:59 PM
I played an uptight paladin when I played a paladin because I thought it was funny. No healing for non lawful-goods in the party, and even for the lawful good members, only enough to get them to level one. The party mostly liked me though because I was a great lawyer, USING the system to grant freedom to various locations of an empire.

Lawful Good really mostly means that you work within the law to protect people. So if you were Chaotic Good and you saw the local barman beating up some drunk, you'd beat the barman up. But if you're lawful good, you'd either summon the guard, or make a citizen's arrest, ask the barman to cease and desist... basically take any available legal action to help people in general.

While in the aspect of healing my Paladin was a stick up the ass character like Miko, most of the time he was more laid back. He once took a revolution, and instead of what most people think paladins would do (put it down), he brought the revolters and the empire together, sat them down, and had them talk it all out. Afterwards, he secured compensation to both sides for the fighting that had taken place, etc. etc.

Another great LG character I saw was a cleric, who clashed wonderfully and amusingly with a CE rogue. Once after my CN wizard and the rogue had shaved a drunken dwarf and almost got arrested for it, the cleric began to give us a lecture about being good, honorable, and the benefits of being such. Our rogue's response was a similar sermon about the benefits of chaos and evil, and the wizard's response was to read his spell book.

So be preachy. Be good. Be honorable. Paladins usually prefer a straight fight, and are almost always willing to lay their lives down for the good of the world.

tainsouvra
2007-07-20, 02:03 PM
I played an uptight paladin when I played a paladin because I thought it was funny. No healing for non lawful-goods in the party, and even for the lawful good members, only enough to get them to level one. Wow...I probably would have ruled that a chaotic action. :smallconfused:

Person_Man
2007-07-20, 02:36 PM
Are you willing to go to any length to protect life, or is life worth sacrificing in order to serve justice, duty, honor, or your god?

Is this a roundabout way of asking about the death penalty, or are you asking something else here? I wanna make sure I know what your saying before I answer that one.

No, it was not about the death penalty, though a question about whether or not Evil people deserve death would be a good question to ask. After all, if killing people is what makes a particular enemy Evil, aren't you just as Evil for killing him if you can defeat him without having to do so?


But what I was asking about has to do with leadership.

As any real life veteran will tell you, being an officer means being able to order a man to his death in order to carry out a task that was handed down to you by your superiors. And it sometimes means doing so without placing yourself in danger, because if the officer is killed, the leaderless soldiers are often at a much bigger disadvantage then if one or more of them is killed. The task may be critical, or it may just be a product of the bureaucracy. But it in the mind of an officer, it is absolutely critical that his orders be followed, because if someone questions orders, it could lead to far more death down the road.

The notion of military leadership can be in direct opposition to the idea of chivalry - the notion that you would put yourself into danger before all others.

Where does your idea of a Paladin believe? Is it acceptable to command 100 low level soldiers into battle against a dragon, knowing that most will certainly die, but that doing so will most likely ensure the safety of an entire city? Or should you face the dragon alone (or with just your small party of friends), knowing that you have a much lower chance of succeeding, and that if you fail the entire city could fall without you to lead their troops?

Dausuul
2007-07-20, 03:07 PM
Where does your idea of a Paladin believe? Is it acceptable to command 100 low level soldiers into battle against a dragon, knowing that most will certainly die, but that doing so will most likely ensure the safety of an entire city? Or should you face the dragon alone (or with just your small party of friends), knowing that you have a much lower chance of succeeding, and that if you fail the entire city could fall without you to lead their troops?

I would say the paladin ought to face the dragon. It may not be the militarily logical thing to do, but part of being a paladin is having faith; that's why you're not allowed to commit evil deeds, even for the greater good. Your job as a paladin is to do what is right and honorable, and have faith that justice will prevail, even if you aren't around to see it. As Gandalf said once, "Even the very wise cannot see all ends."

Humility also comes into play here. Believing you are so valuable that others must die to keep you alive is a dangerous attitude, even when it's true. That way lies the pride of a tyrant who butchers his own people to stay in power. Again, military logic may sometimes dictate that the officer send subordinates into battle while remaining behind, but the paladin should not generally be willing to make that trade.

That's not to say you have to be lawful stupid. Against a dragon, you should certainly do what you can to slug the odds in your favor. If those 100 low-level soldiers would improve your chances, you should ask for volunteers to stand with you. But sending them into battle without going yourself--unless you have some other vital task that takes priority--doesn't really square with the paladin ideals... at least as I see them.

Paladins are not really cut out to be military officers.

Superglucose
2007-07-20, 04:02 PM
Wow...I probably would have ruled that a chaotic action. :smallconfused:

Hee hee... maybe. DM let it slide though. The idea was that since his healing was limited, it was only given to the people necessary and always willing to do what was right and honorable... basically, himself and his dragon mount.

Pronounceable
2007-07-20, 04:25 PM
I'll just pop in to say this:
Hartigan from Sin City is a near perfect role model for a budding paladin.

mostlyharmful
2007-07-20, 04:44 PM
And try to convince your DM that there are out of game benefits to being a good guy, the village elders repect you, the clerics heal you first, the diplomacy checks are easier for you as all the NPC plebs know who you are. Notice that there's no mention of money or power or personal gain.

Half the problem with players that get hacked off with paladins is that there are no tangible fbenefits to having a friend that is trusted and believed. Just as your evil actions should rack up effects, your good ones should have an in character effect.

How muchis the bard aided by the town hero standing next to them, how much more acceptted is the warlock when good sir Robin is standing next to them, Who would be closed mouthed when your local hero asked you to identify what is wrong in this suspiciously perfect hamlet.

Joltz
2007-07-20, 05:00 PM
I've told my players that "but that's my alignment" is no longer a valid argument for anything in my games. There are more than 9 personalities in the world. Alignment is just a mechanic to determine how certain spells and abilities effect different people. When I'm making a character I never pick the alignment first. I think about their personality and how they act in various situations and find alignment based on that. The most recent character I played didn't even have a declared alignment till the 3rd playing session (I just called him NN till then).

I get sick of seeing paladin-on-a-stick stereotypes like Miko, so I decided that if I ever played a paladin, I'd play a paladin who's almost the opposite. One that's easy to get along with, but still very lawful and good. Other people have already given a lot of good advice about playing a stick-less paladin. Let's see if I can summarize it.


As a paladin, you have to act in accordance with the law and with good intent. You do not have to dictate morality to anyone, however you will stop behavior that grossly violates the intent of the law or is incorrigibly evil.

I think if you follow that simple guideline, you can play a successful paladin. If you're excessively strict in determining what "grossly violates the intent of the law" or what is "incorrigibly evil" you'll be a paladin-on-a-stick. If you're a nice guy about it... you get the picture.

example:
DM says

As you're walking through the market, you see a street urchin pick up an apple from a fruit vendor and begin to run off. The vendor yells "stop, thief!" after the fleeing child, but can't get to the front of his stand quickly enough to chase the child

Paladin-on-a-stick says

I catch the child, give the apple back to the man and lecture the child on why stealing is wrong.

Nice paladin says

I catch the child then pay the man for the apple and apologize for the child's behavior. I tell the child that stealing is wrong and give reasons not to do it again (such as, it may be a guardsman who sees you next time instead of me). Now what can I do to help this child survive without needing to steal food..?

Essentially, it boils down to paladins accepting that the world isn't black and white evil/good. The child shouldn't steal food, but he/she has no other method of getting food. Rather than leaving this problem in the world or simply correcting the (minor) evil act that just occurred, the good paladin will generously help both people involved (man gets money and kid gets apple) and try to find a long-term solution to the source of the evil.

Good paladins should apply this logic to their interactions with the party as well. You shouldn't lie, but if the rouge is lying to the BBEG's henchman it's a lie that's obviously serving the cause of good.

mostlyharmful
2007-07-20, 05:39 PM
Here's the thing that gets me about the paladin. they seem to be th eonly one that suffers fromthe slignment rules, Brds nd barbarians that rutinlely assosiate with the sources of laws/ being entirely predictable without suffering loss of all class abilities and progression, Monks and clerics and druids all have allignment demand s placed on them yet they can swan about without the "you cough at the wrong time, you fall" mentalityl.

Dausuul
2007-07-20, 06:04 PM
Here's the thing that gets me about the paladin. they seem to be th eonly one that suffers fromthe slignment rules, Brds nd barbarians that rutinlely assosiate with the sources of laws/ being entirely predictable without suffering loss of all class abilities and progression, Monks and clerics and druids all have allignment demand s placed on them yet they can swan about without the "you cough at the wrong time, you fall" mentalityl.

That's because paladins have all these cool special abilities. It's only fair that they should have to pay extra for them. If you're going to play a wizard or a cleric or a druid, that's no problem, but paladins are just too damn powerful unless they have some serious restrictions.

Snooder
2007-07-20, 06:11 PM
That's because paladins have all these cool special abilities. It's only fair that they should have to pay extra for them. If you're going to play a wizard or a cleric or a druid, that's no problem, but paladins are just too damn powerful unless they have some serious restrictions.

Hah. Too bad Paladins don't really have that cool special abilities. Roleplaying and code aside, a multiclassed Cleric/Fighter is actually better than a Paladin. Same BAB with Divine Power, fighter feats and much better spellcasting. About the only cool thing the Pally gets is Divine Grace and a mount.

Smite evil is close, but a.) only hits evil, and b.) the per day requirements means it's not really useful.


Personally, I enjoy playing the Righteous Fury Pally. Not so severely as to alienate other party members, but it is a viable character personality. And lets face it, considering the roleplaying fluff around the Paladin, that sort of personality is the most attracted to the class (both player and character). Just as you seldom have LG rogues, or elven barbarians, you seldom have nice Paladins.

Callix
2007-07-20, 07:36 PM
OotS and discussions on these boards are a really, really bad introduction to paladins. ;)

Have a closer look at the paladin fluff. Do you see anything in there that says: "Must act like a complete a**hole at all times?" How about anything that says "Is required to always be a stuck up brat?" No? Then what's making you play like that? Nothing. You've just gotten a skewed perpective because of the threads and comics.

To be a paladin, you have to be Lawful Good, act honourably, protect those in need, and respect legitimate authority. Notice something about those requirements? They're all focused around action - what you do. They don't say anything about how you do it, or what personality you have. So the idea that being a paladin dictates your personality is just flat wrong. You can be cheerful, grumpy, surly, reserved, pious, silent, enthusiastic, cynical, naive, careful, foolhardy, campy, serious - whatever you like. You should be able to fit virtually any non-chaotic and non-Evil personality to a paladin character with a little effort.

The personality of your character is determined by you and you alone. If you find your characters are loathed by the rest of the party, that's your fault, not the fault of the class you took. ;)

- Saph

Sorry. I had to ask. How would you play a camp paladin? "Anyone seen my sword?" Lilac-enamelled plate armor? The possibilities are endless... and very disturbing :smalleek:

horseboy
2007-07-20, 07:41 PM
Personally, I enjoy playing the Righteous Fury Pally. Not so severely as to alienate other party members, but it is a viable character personality. And lets face it, considering the roleplaying fluff around the Paladin, that sort of personality is the most attracted to the class (both player and character). Just as you seldom have LG rogues, or elven barbarians, you seldom have nice Paladins.

That is true. Sometimes it's nice to lay the smack down with a Jonathan Edwards style Fire and Brimstone paladin. They usually work better in a smash n grab style game, though.

Stephen_E
2007-07-20, 09:23 PM
The Leadership feat is part of the rules. One of the benefits under the rules is "You get a cohort." The Associates section under paladins says you can't get a non-LG cohort, so you can't use Leadership to get a non-LG cohort as a paladin.


Note that the limitation on alignment of Cohorts, henchmen and followers is for accepting them, i.e. when they join. It doesn't require that you dismiss them if they change alignment.

I worked out a Paladin/Sorceror build where the Paladin's Special Mount/Cohort got class levels as a Hexblade. :-) As far as I can see it's perfectly legal for a Special mount to become non-LG, strange but legal.

Stephen

Stephen_E
2007-07-20, 09:30 PM
That's because paladins have all these cool special abilities. It's only fair that they should have to pay extra for them. If you're going to play a wizard or a cleric or a druid, that's no problem, but paladins are just too damn powerful unless they have some serious restrictions.

Dausuul, you should put a smiley at the end, otherwise someone might think you're serious and by association distrust other stuff you post.

I'm assuming it was a joke.

Stephen

DSCrankshaw
2007-07-20, 09:35 PM
That's because paladins have all these cool special abilities. It's only fair that they should have to pay extra for them. If you're going to play a wizard or a cleric or a druid, that's no problem, but paladins are just too damn powerful unless they have some serious restrictions.
These boards really need a sarcasm tag or smiley or something :smallsmile:

Anyway, the main thing about playing a paladin (or any other paragon of virtue, such as a knight) is that it's about personal sacrifice. You're willing to pay the price of doing the right thing, even if it means it costs you in terms of treasure or XP or something. It's not about making the rest of the party pay that price. Of course, that can be very frustrating if the rest of your party is constantly doing stuff that requires you to make sacrifices, such as robbing people so that you have to pay the victims back out of your share of the treasure. That's the real reason paladins can't adventure with characters who consistently offend their moral code: they end up so far behind the wealth by level guidelines that they can no longer afford to :smallwink:

Advance Strat..
2007-07-20, 09:47 PM
So to sum up so far....

1. Know what your code is in the first place so you know what your talking about when claiming someone's violating it.
2. Don't ignore the grey areas in the morality spectrum, Aladdin may have a good reason for grabbing that loaf of bread.
3. When talking to others about mistakes they may make, lead the horse to water, but don't shove their head into the river.
4. Make things a personal sacrifice if needed, not a TPK

And as for the 100 solders vs the dragon thing? I would say what i'd try to do is make sure their volunteering for the job, and even then try to take as many precautions as possible (like having them be archers from behind a wall or something, instead of having them be kamakazies) so that if there ARE deaths, they are as little as possible.

In general though, I'd probably make it so that he would try to make sure everyone stayed alive, even if things were done slower in the process. If it's obvious that there is no way in any universe that everybody is gonna make it out alive, find a way to make sure the others can get to safety at least.

Renegade Paladin
2007-07-20, 11:47 PM
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm

Play one of these varients.
FYI, Advance, this is about the worst advice given in the thread. Not only do the classes he's suggesting thematically suck, but they don't at all inherently solve the problem you're wanting to solve; having a character who must always be evil to everyone at all times is far worse than having a lecturing paladin.

Anyway, I've always found that the best way to play a non-annoying paladin is to keep this as your guiding principle: Your fight against evil is between you and evil. It isn't about your companions, it isn't about the town government (unless said government happens to be evil), and it isn't about the populace at large. Simply don't care if your companions don't live up to your code, so long as they aren't themselves evil/committing evil and staying with them is contributing to your fight.

This isn't to say that you have to be single-minded, nor that the party is simply your tool for battling evil. Just remember that it isn't your business that the party rogue is lying to the evil overlord's gate guards to try and get you in; it's your business to get in and kill the evil overlord. The members of your party are your bond-companions, not your subordinates (unless you're playing a military campaign and they're lower rank than you), and you should treat them as equals and afford them the respect they deserve. Just remember those two things, and you'll do fine.

Dausuul
2007-07-21, 12:07 AM
Dausuul, you should put a smiley at the end, otherwise someone might think you're serious and by association distrust other stuff you post.

I'm assuming it was a joke.

Stephen

Yeah, that was sarcasm. :smallsmile: Paladins aren't bad for a (mostly) non-caster class, but full casters walk all over them just like they do everybody else.

Saph
2007-07-21, 03:34 AM
Sorry. I had to ask. How would you play a camp paladin? "Anyone seen my sword?" Lilac-enamelled plate armor? The possibilities are endless... and very disturbing :smalleek:

We've got one player in our group who nearly always plays flamboyantly gay characters, and he especially likes clerics and paladins. He was the one I was thinking of when I wrote that. ;)

Just to give an example (though this is a cleric, not a pally) - Chastity, the adamantine-plated warforged cleric of the Eberron god of gardening. Wore wreaths of flowers (pansies) around her neck and arms and spent most of her spare time polishing her armour to a mirror finish. Was usually more interested in critiquing the style of the enemies they were going up against than actually fighting them, constantly comparing them to the characters on some show called 'Eberron Idol'. Kept up a running commentary through the adventure on how the other characters were doing, with lots of double entendres.

Note that this style of playing characters is not recommended if you're a bad performer or can't handle insults. ;) This player's neither, and always has a comeback that'll make you laugh, so everyone enjoys playing with him.

- Saph

ArmorArmadillo
2007-07-21, 11:14 AM
So to sum up so far....

1. Know what your code is in the first place so you know what your talking about when claiming someone's violating it.
2. Don't ignore the grey areas in the morality spectrum, Aladdin may have a good reason for grabbing that loaf of bread.
3. When talking to others about mistakes they may make, lead the horse to water, but don't shove their head into the river.
4. Make things a personal sacrifice if needed, not a TPK

And as for the 100 solders vs the dragon thing? I would say what i'd try to do is make sure their volunteering for the job, and even then try to take as many precautions as possible (like having them be archers from behind a wall or something, instead of having them be kamakazies) so that if there ARE deaths, they are as little as possible.
A Paladin, played correctly, wouldn't send 100 soldiers against a dragon, he'd either go alone or lead the assault.
The #1 problem people have with Paladins is trying to play them with inherent authority over others; don't tell people what to do, don't tell people how to morally be. Lead by example, and hope that others follow it.

Advance Strat..
2007-07-21, 11:36 AM
yeah i just realized that I wasn't clear on that. I just figured it was assumed mr paladin guy was gonna be there. Yes mr paladin, along with the other pc's hopefully would be leading the charge. I was saying, having the 100 volunteer guys be archers from a distance away and act as a sort of cover fire, instead of having them right at the dragon likely to get themselves killed.

Roderick_BR
2007-07-21, 12:29 PM
Don't play with players that are douchebags.
Really, it's all a matter on how the group play. In a game where the objective is to play "heroes", save people, kill monsters, and defeat the villain, the paladin is at home.
If it's a mercenaries, or some other "free for all" game, or a story with too much "morally questionable" actions, you better try something else.

Alex Knight
2007-07-21, 10:07 PM
Let's see...my paladin would:

a.) never tell a lie. He might say something misleading, but he would never say something untrue.

For example, if he knew that a town official was a bad man and that one of the party members was going to...take care of him, he might step out of the room and then tell the town guards later: "I am sorry, but I did not see who killed that man."

b.) always volunteer to "take point" unless someone was checking for traps

c.) Never accept a reward from villagers for helping them. If they provided a feast in his honor, he'd go out later and hunt some game for them.

d.) With the example of the street rat stealing an apple, he'd pay for the apple, and then find the child and either get him a place to stay, or offer to take the boy as a squire/assistant.

With part members performing actions he disagreed with, he'd point out to them what he saw as the benefits of doing things by his moral code.

A quiet person who doesn't seek fame or recognition, who considers being a paladin "what I am" instead of "what I do".

alchahest
2007-07-23, 08:46 PM
I play a paladin in an AD&D game right now (that group hasn't converted to 3.x, and I happily play AD&D with them). Thematically, he's an arabian knight, he's got a scimitar and a shield, bronze scale armour, light linen cap and turban, puffy pants, etc. he's also somewhat of a hospitalier, most of his equipment is related to healing and herbology, potions galore, and extra food. He is a paladin, but I play him as a cleric, he was part of a group similar to the paladins in OotS, and was ordered to protect a group who is going out to adventure.

some aspects of the character's personality:

always healing other people first
always giving the enemy a chance to surrender
always displaying compassion (holding up the adventure to rebuild a house destroyed by the party's enemies... and then giving his share of the loot to the family to buy new seed and animals for their farm)
always telling the truth.... but sometimes keeping his mouth shut. as a paladin he is a soldier of his god's will, and some thing require going along with a deception. you cannot infiltrate a cult if you walk up and state your business.

When the party members need to do something evil (like theft, even from a known enemy), I will find a way to not be there. out of character, of course. I realise this is metagaming, but it prevents conflicts. that's not to say there are not disagreements, but it keeps it to a minimum. the partygoers know about his oaths, as do the players, and so they don't provoke him. in this way, I'm able to play my character as close to his belief system as possible, without having to cause friction.


sometimes friction is a good thing, but my paladin's character is always cheerful, and I would hate to have to change his mood :D

Zel
2007-07-23, 09:21 PM
Let everyone in the party speak first, then put your opinion in last. Let them determine the course of action, and reserve judgement until the very end. I'd advise not trying to influence the direction of the adventure too much; instead simply listen to your party members then decide whether your code of honor condones said actions.

You are a tool to be wielded, not an obstacle to be overcome. Strive to be the river that wears away the stone of opposition, not the damn that stops the water from flowing as it wishes.

Advance Strat..
2007-08-01, 10:37 PM
Was just listening to some Man of La Mancha, and found a little line near the end that I think fits.


"Not well? What is illness to the body of a knight errand? What matter wounds? For each time he falls, he shall rise again! And woe to the wicked!"

and now that i think about it, the entire song "The Impossible Dream" from it sounds pretty good for what a paladin should act like.

what do you guys say?

TSGames
2007-08-01, 10:52 PM
So here's a question for you guys. How SHOULD you play a paladin that won't end up making the other players, whether in or out of character, want to poison your next meal?

Any way you want. People seem to forget that a paladin is merely a Lawful Good character who has agreed to a certain code, he is not a robot(that would be much cooler). You can play him about any way you could play any other Lawful Good character. Alignments are vague and there are countless ways to be any alignment, even lawful good. Paladins can be down to earth, although, I digress, it does seem more in keeping with the flavor of the class to act lordly and superior. In addition, there are paladin variants if you desire, but all you need to remember is that there are many ways to be a Lawful Good character and there are many ways to be a Paladin.

Fishy
2007-08-01, 11:57 PM
The Lawful Good Paladin heads up to the hypothetical fruit stand, buys something for himself, pays, "And another silvers for that apple." (Or however much apples cost). He points at the kid, beckons him over, and proceeds to ask the vendor about his business, about his family, how he came to the city, what he wants to do with his life, the things he enjoys doing. Put that charisma mod to use. Afterwards, he leads the boy out of the store, and walks away.

Stealing is Wrong, but it's not wrong because it's against the Law, it's wrong because it hurts other people. Hypothetical Orphan Boy wasn't going out of his way to hurt Hypothetical Fruit Vendor's business: he was just hungry, and doesn't think of the vendor as a person, just as 'the guy that keeps food away from me.' If the Paladin thinks it's his job to educate others, he should find a way to do it through virtue, compassion and charity rather than lecturing.

That's my take. Maybe too much of that would get insufferable, but I like it more.

NephandiMan
2007-08-02, 10:36 PM
Was just listening to some Man of La Mancha, and found a little line near the end that I think fits.


"Not well? What is illness to the body of a knight errand? What matter wounds? For each time he falls, he shall rise again! And woe to the wicked!"

and now that i think about it, the entire song "The Impossible Dream" from it sounds pretty good for what a paladin should act like.

what do you guys say?

First, a minor correction: the phrase is "knight errant," not "knight errand." The words are etymologically related, yet still distinct.

More importantly, you're quite correct about the appropriateness of "The Impossible Dream" as a sort of mission statement for paladins. This is not surprising, since Cervantes conceived Don Quixote as a loving parody of the chivalrous knight-figure of courtly romances. However, I would like to point out a matter that pertains to a certain line in that song: "To fight for the right, without question or pause..."

It has been said already in this thread - and not only in this thread - that paladins ought not to be fanatical in their approach to morality in general, and the fight against evil in particular. This point bears repeating, not only because of its importance in conceiving and playing a paladin, but because there are far too many people in real life who are convinced that it is their holy duty to sacrifice others. D&D is not a perfect model for the real world, since one of the basic assumptions of the alignment system is that an absolute and objective morality exists, but it is accurate enough to raise moral questions (and, if this board is representative in this respect, to generate intense debate concerning those questions).

This is one of my most important objections to the religions of the world, especially organized religions: it is only too easy for people to convince themselves (or let others convince them) that it is not only permissible, but admirable, to terrorize, torture, and kill in the name of religion. It would be absurd to claim that religions have done no good whatsoever, but in many cases it's an open question whether people have performed morally admirable actions because of their religion - or in spite of it.

What does this have to do with paladins? It is only too easy for paladins to suspend their critical faculties and forget the ten thousand subtle shadings of human (and demi-human) motivation, and to believe that it is their holy duty to destroy anything that detects as evil. What paladins need - and what the human race in real life needs - is not more faith, but more critical thinking; not the arrogance of certainty, but the humbleness of skepticism; not a thirst for blood, but a willingness to investigate the motives behind an action that may only seem evil. Granted that in D&D there are certain clear-cut cases involving always-evil beings - devils and demons being the two best and most familiar examples - there are also a number of cases that parallel the complexity and the moral ambiguity of real life.

So go forth, knight errant, and fight for the right! But as you do so, do not forget that the right is often elusive and hard to discern, and never forget that the most divine tool at your disposal is not smiting, nor laying on hands, but careful, critical thinking. The precise nature of a paladin's cause varies, depending on his or her deity, but every Good paladin is also a paladin of reason.

Advance Strat..
2007-08-02, 11:30 PM
First, a minor correction: the phrase is "knight errant," not "knight errand." The words are etymologically related, yet still distinct.

More importantly, you're quite correct about the appropriateness of "The Impossible Dream" as a sort of mission statement for paladins. This is not surprising, since Cervantes conceived Don Quixote as a loving parody of the chivalrous knight-figure of courtly romances. However, I would like to point out a matter that pertains to a certain line in that song: "To fight for the right, without question or pause..."

It has been said already in this thread - and not only in this thread - that paladins ought not to be fanatical in their approach to morality in general, and the fight against evil in particular. This point bears repeating, not only because of its importance in conceiving and playing a paladin, but because there are far too many people in real life who are convinced that it is their holy duty to sacrifice others. D&D is not a perfect model for the real world, since one of the basic assumptions of the alignment system is that an absolute and objective morality exists, but it is accurate enough to raise moral questions (and, if this board is representative in this respect, to generate intense debate concerning those questions).

This is one of my most important objections to the religions of the world, especially organized religions: it is only too easy for people to convince themselves (or let others convince them) that it is not only permissible, but admirable, to terrorize, torture, and kill in the name of religion. It would be absurd to claim that religions have done no good whatsoever, but in many cases it's an open question whether people have performed morally admirable actions because of their religion - or in spite of it.

What does this have to do with paladins? It is only too easy for paladins to suspend their critical faculties and forget the ten thousand subtle shadings of human (and demi-human) motivation, and to believe that it is their holy duty to destroy anything that detects as evil. What paladins need - and what the human race in real life needs - is not more faith, but more critical thinking; not the arrogance of certainty, but the humbleness of skepticism; not a thirst for blood, but a willingness to investigate the motives behind an action that may only seem evil. Granted that in D&D there are certain clear-cut cases involving always-evil beings - devils and demons being the two best and most familiar examples - there are also a number of cases that parallel the complexity and the moral ambiguity of real life.

So go forth, knight errant, and fight for the right! But as you do so, do not forget that the right is often elusive and hard to discern, and never forget that the most divine tool at your disposal is not smiting, nor laying on hands, but careful, critical thinking. The precise nature of a paladin's cause varies, depending on his or her deity, but every Good paladin is also a paladin of reason.

yeah that was just a typo on my part with errand and errant. whoops.

I see what you mean with that line though. I always took it to mean something along the lines of, if he saw someone getting mugged, he should go and help the victim, instead of watching from afar and doing nothing. If you take that line to mean smite all that is evil no matter what, then yes you might wanna be careful with what your doing there. If you take it as taking action when you see someone in need of help, instead of pretending you didn't notice and walking away quickly, i'd say it works much better. Maybe not perfect, but certainly better then say durkon's casting turn undead on roy and V whenever he thought he heard something even remotely close to the word ghoul, ghast, or something similar.


And for those of you who don't know this song, I'll post the lyrics here quick in spoilers.



To dream the impossible dream
To fight the unbeatable foe
To bear with unbearable sorrow
To run where the brave dare not go
To right the unrightable wrong
To love pure and chaste from afar
To try when your arms are too weary
To reach the unreachable star

This is my quest
To follow that star
No matter how hopeless
No matter how far

To fight for the right
Without question or pause
To be willing to march into Hell
For a heavenly cause

And I know if I'll only be true
To this glorious quest
That my heart will lie peaceful and calm
When I'm laid to my rest

And the world will be better for this
That one man, scorned and covered with scars
Still strove with his last ounce of courage
To reach the unreachable star

Ravyn
2007-08-03, 11:07 PM
....ooooh, an excuse to plug!

*grins* It actually basically comes down to a few things: What's your moral code, over and above the basic paladin rules (redeemer? Avenger? Showoff knight?), what were you first, and how did you end up as a paladin? And, for that matter, what parts of The Code do you chafe under, and what parts do you worry the most about your ability to live up to? The rest just sort of comes in from there.

I (as I always do when asked for paladin advice) suggest swinging by Beta Subforum and checking out Varen_Tai's A Paladin's Heart--if an all-paladin party can't give you a little inspiration, I don't know what can, and up to the current point it's been almost entirely character development.