Powerful illusion counter

[Aharon]

Hi Board!

I'm a bit excited, since this has eluded me so far. Already edited the title - less powerful than I thought because it doesn't work on Ice Assassins. There's little to do against it besides killing the moon dog before it can get off its action. A competent caster should be able to spam summon them to make sure at least one whine gets through.

The Moon Dog (Book of Exalted Deeds, pg. 179) has the following ability:



Whine (Su):
A moon dog can whine as a standard action to automatically dispel any illusion effect within 50 feet.

This seems to be a very potent counter to illusions - and thus illusion-dependent builds like the shadowcraft mage. Haven't seen that so far, and haven't seen it mentioned anywhere, so I thought I should post.

Moon Dogs are summonable via Summon Monster IX.

I found that when building a binder - who get's SMIX via Zceryll and Bloodline cheese at level 11 ;-)

[Segev]

Questionable reading of Bloodlines if you're trying to claim that the bloodline levels don't add to your ECL, but that is one of the commonly accepted interpretations of it.

I'm guessing you are taking 3 bloodline levels to achieve this; with bloodline levels actually adding to your ECL, would that make this a level 14 trick?

[Aharon]

Questionable reading of Bloodlines if you're trying to claim that the bloodline levels don't add to your ECL, but that is one of the commonly accepted interpretations of it.

I'm guessing you are taking 3 bloodline levels to achieve this; with bloodline levels actually adding to your ECL, would that make this a level 14 trick?

Hi Segev, no. I copied that from some other build. Binder 4/Bloodline 1/Binder 2/Bloodline 1/Scion of Dantalion 1/Knight of the Sacred Seal 1/Bloodline 1.

[Segev]

Hi Segev, no. I copied that from some other build. Binder 4/Bloodline 1/Binder 2/Bloodline 1/Scion of Dantalion 1/Knight of the Sacred Seal 1/Bloodline 1.

I'm not sure what the purpose of the bloodline levels is in that build. Wouldn't Binder be better at each point? (That is using Bloodline levels in what I consider the correct way, as it's adding up to a total ECL of 11.)

[Aharon]

I'm not sure what the purpose of the bloodline levels is in that build. Wouldn't Binder be better at each point? (That is using Bloodline levels in what I consider the correct way, as it's adding up to a total ECL of 11.)

I took that interpretation from a brilliant gameologist post on that topic. It went by the interpretation that as it's not abilites, spells known, or spells per days, the bloodline levels add to the soul binding abilities of Binder, SoD and KoSS separately.

But the main point of this post was the moon dog - it's still an awesome trick if you get it at level 17 instead of level 11 :-)

[Crake]

Ice assassins are instantaneous effects and thus are not subject to either dispel magic or disjunction any more than a construct, undead or petrified creature would be.

[Aharon]

Ice assassins are instantaneous effects and thus are not subject to either dispel magic or disjunction any more than a construct, undead or petrified creature would be.

Could have sworn it was "permanent", thanks for the correction!

[Crake]

I took that interpretation from a brilliant gameologist post on that topic. It went by the interpretation that as it's not abilites, spells known, or spells per days, the bloodline levels add to the soul binding abilities of Binder, SoD and KoSS separately.

But the main point of this post was the moon dog - it's still an awesome trick if you get it at level 17 instead of level 11 :-)

I'm not sure whether that would work to be honest. It says you gain an increase to "level dependent abilities", so the only thing that would increase is your "binder level", much the same as caster level for casters. Since those prestige classes don't actually have any level dependent abilities of their own, instead just adding to that of the base binder class, it wouldn't stack like that.

Also, assuming it did work the way you thought, the total "binder level" for that is 17, but zceryll gets summon monster at the sorcerer level, meaning you'd need level 18, though that could just be covered with favoured vestige.

[Aharon]

I'm not sure whether that would work to be honest. It says you gain an increase to "level dependent abilities", so the only thing that would increase is your "binder level", much the same as caster level for casters. Since those prestige classes don't actually have any level dependent abilities of their own, instead just adding to that of the base binder class, it wouldn't stack like that.

Also, assuming it did work the way you thought, the total "binder level" for that is 17, but zceryll gets summon monster at the sorcerer level, meaning you'd need level 18, though that could just be covered with favoured vestige.

Sorry, didn't mention that. Yes, I assumed favoured vestige. @Bloodlines: That's the goto-interpretation over at BG, AFAIK. The best reasoning I could find was this (http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?293549-Bloodlines&p=5313312&viewfull=1#post5313312) and this (http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?293549-Bloodlines&p=5314720&viewfull=1#post5314720).

[Segev]

I took that interpretation from a brilliant gameologist post on that topic. It went by the interpretation that as it's not abilites, spells known, or spells per days, the bloodline levels add to the soul binding abilities of Binder, SoD and KoSS separately.


I'm not sure whether that would work to be honest. It says you gain an increase to "level dependent abilities", so the only thing that would increase is your "binder level", much the same as caster level for casters. Since those prestige classes don't actually have any level dependent abilities of their own, instead just adding to that of the base binder class, it wouldn't stack like that.

Also, assuming it did work the way you thought, the total "binder level" for that is 17, but zceryll gets summon monster at the sorcerer level, meaning you'd need level 18, though that could just be covered with favoured vestige.

There are a number of weird interpretations of bloodline levels out there. While they definitely add to every level-dependent progression you have, having them triple-up on one progression on the grounds that two of them are adding to the first, and they're all three advancing, is...flimsy.

If you were advancing binder with one, wizard with another, and cleric with the third, all three would get advanced, certainly. (Notably, only caster levels, not spells/day or spells known. Though wizard would get his 2 spells in his spellbook, since that advances every level.)

But I don't think you can support "this PrC advances Binder as if you took a level in Binder" and "you also gained a level in Binder" as double-stacking. It advances your Binder level, as that depends on your class level. It doesn't do it two or more times. Put another way: the same bonus overlaps; it doesn't stack.



But the main point of this post was the moon dog - it's still an awesome trick if you get it at level 17 instead of level 11 :-)

Granted. That is an interesting observation. Even if it doesn't work on an ice assassin or a simulacrum, it is useful.

[Thaneus]

never seen an interpretation which worked this way and made it into actual play, well its up to the GM.
From my understanding thou you increase only your effective Soul-Binder level but not your option to bind higher vestiges.

Normaly as far as i read it, and also was stated in a guide regarding bloodlines it has to be this way:
Binder 1+2 -> Bloodline I -> Binder 3+4+5 -> Bloodline II -> Binder 6 -> Scion of Dantalion 1 -> Knight of the Sacred Seal 1-> other soulbindung class 1+2+3 -> Bloodline III
and at the and you have effective soul binding level 15 at ECL 12 but can only bind 6th level.

You had "payed" 18.000 exp, gain the juicy MBL and +3 eSBL which helps with your checks as ECL 12.
PrC which give "your xxx ability improves as if you had also gained a level in the xxx class" are not affected by bloodlines because it is not their "own" class feature.

Exception: all PrC with their own Spellcasting (Ur-Priest, Sublime Chord, Divine Crusader...) are affected by BL (which makes Ardent, Savage Bard, Urpriest, Sublime Chord, Psionic and Mystic Theurge *not in this order* over the top choice on a MBL)

Disclaimer:
I know there are several interpretation about bloodlines since, like so often, the text is not stated clear and leaves room for a lot of RAW lawing. The interpretation above is not my own but from a guide I read and agree upon.
For this in most cases bloodline are not total bogus (like they are actual full ECL levels which do practically nothing for you and only block you progress) or extremely overpower (well i take my Bloodline levels on 2nd 4th and 6th level and be done increase my CL with my 23 PrC through the roof and so on)