[Attack bonus increase?] Help with Warblade

[Elder Inheritor]

So, I have been reading a lot of guides for 3.5E and trying to learn the system better. I originally came from 4E, but I've played 3.5E in a campaign from level 1 to 13. I just got killed, and decided to switch from a warforged warlock to a warforged warblade (totally twins). The restrictions are:
• No multiclassing, including prestige, without a multiple-level-length adventure arc explaining how it happens.
• Shapeshifting spells (e.g. Polymorph) and the Natural Spell feat are banned.
• GM can and will (and has) use(d) ideas/tactics/builds/etc. the players come up with for sufficiently intelligent enemies.

I am making a warblade, and I came across this in a handbook: "you should be hitting nearly all the time, anyway (the Tarrasque only has 35 AC; pit fiends have only 40). You’d likely be better off spending that +4 bonus on other properties."

Well... At level 13, my Warblade has a +13 BAB, a +4 Str modifier, and a +1 magic greataxe. This gives a total of +18 against AC.

At CR 13, monsters will easily have AC values above 25 (26 young adult red dragon, 30 iron golem, 27 glabrezu/storm giant, 32 ice devil). I only hit a 30 AC on a natural roll of 12+. It isn't absolutely horrid, but why in the Nine Hells would I prioritize damage over getting a higher attack bonus? Specifically, when I'm expected to use power attack, which is explained (over and over and over) to be the largest source of damage for most melee types (especially chargers), but would reduce my chances of hitting even more, why would I not let Power Attack do all the work and use all my feats and money on boosting my attack bonus?

Assume with a 2-hander and Leap Attack, I can trade -1 attack bonus for +6 damage. That's lovely and all, but when the enemy has 184 HP and has AC 27, and I deal an average of 13.5 damage per successful attack with 70% chance to hit... That gives a 30% chance that I could be lightning'ed (or acid'ed, or whatever'ed) to death because I failed to murder the enemy. That is a pretty hefty chance, at almost 1 in 3. If I were to charge into flanking a prone enemy and power attack for say, -13, I'd have a 35% chance to hit, and deal an average of 85.5 damage if successful. While it's a much larger chunk of HP, my chances of success dwindle into crit-zone if their AC is slightly above average.

My Warlock was usually just fine with making magic items for everyone and acting as a plot device that needed a bit of protection while he blasted entangled critters; now, he's served his purpose (dying for a ritual), but enemies are starting to get much more powerful as a byproduct of us sending the apocalypse to a far-off, lifeless galaxy.

Tl;dr I am a newb to attack bonuses. Please help me make my Warblade able to keep up with the self-buff Cleric, spellcasty (but non-wild shapey) Druid, and lifestealing Psychic Warrior.

Extra note! At level 20, with my current setup plus a Belt of Storm Giant Strength, I'd have a +28 to hit AC. That's a 45% chance to hit a Pit Fiend. It's essentially the same for the Tarrasque if you consider extra power attacking to overcome its ridiculous regeneration and DR. That's less than half.

[Kish]

At level 13 you have a +1 weapon and your Strength isn't boosted higher than 18? That's rather shockingly bad. What's your total gear value? (If it's significantly below 110,000 gold, you have much worse gear than the game assumes you do by default.)

[Deophaun]

I'll just give you an easy way to increase you attack bonus as an initiator. Open up Tome of Battle, go to the magic item section and read about martial discipline weapons. Read it carefully, because it's actually better than it appears: the +1/+3 bonus to attack is not an enhancement bonus and it is not limited to attacks with the weapon. Get a +1 gauntlet of the martial discipline that has a stance you spend most of your combat time in: enjoy an extra +3 to hit with your great axe. And you can do this for every discipline you have a maneuver known for.

'Course, with the crazy multiclassing rules ("Hey guys! Let's put the adventure on hold so that we can focus on how I dipped a level of Fighter!"), your DM is likely to houserule that one away.

[Elder Inheritor]

I had a starting Strength of 16 (rolled), +2 from Gauntlets of Ogre Power. My weapon is a +1 smoking banishing undead-bane lucky cursespewing greataxe. The GM decides starting equipment based on campaign; undead have been prevalent so far, about 4 of every 10 fights have undead. Cursespewing was a rolled "bonus quality", so I'm not complaining about it being on there. I also have an Amulet of Health +6, +1 adamantine full plate, and a +1 animated arrow-repelling (GM custom, basically Protection From Arrows for a refreshing 15 points each round) shield. Edit: And a minor cloak of displacement.


Further edit: The multiclassing thing is because none of us would ever dip fighter. We had an Incantatrix before, that had zero explanation within the campaign. Thanks for pointing out that martial discipline weapons don't require using the enhanced weapon. :smallbiggrin: That's exactly perfect!

[Deophaun]

Further edit: The multiclassing thing is because none of us would ever dip fighter. We had an Incantatrix before, that had zero explanation within the campaign.
If the problem is Incantatrix, ban Incantatrix (it's a common ban). It's the weaker classes that need to multiclass to keep up with the Wizards and Clerics... which your other players have obviously figured out. (None of you would ever do a Dungeoncrasher? Sad..)

Going back to the subject at hand, throwing the Enemy Spirit Pouch [Undead] (MIC) onto your amulet should be cheap.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Generally:
1) Your strength modifier should be 6-8, not 4. A base 16, +3 from increases, +4 from a magic item, works out to 23 strength (+6). A base 17, +3 from increases, +6 from a magic item, works out to 26 (+8).
2) Your weapon should be +3, not because you have bought a +3 greataxe, but because you cast an Extended greater magic weapon at CL 12 once a day.

That alone puts your attack bonus at +22-24. At level 20, with a good 32 strength (16 + 5 + 6 + 5 from wishes) and a +5 weapon, you're talking a to-hit of +36.

Situationally:
3) Being a warblade, you can use Diamond Mind maneuvers to attack flat-footed AC or touch AC, which are often lower.
4) If you charge, you get another +2 to hit. If you flank, you get another +2 to hit. Ask your druid, cleric, or wizard to summon something to flank with.
5) If a bard inspires courage, you will get a +2 to hit and damage. +3 if they have a vest of legends. +4 if they have inspirational boost. +5 if they have a badge of valour. +10 if they have Words of Creation.
6) If your buffing friend casts haste, you get +1 to hit, and an extra attack on a full attack.
7) If your buffing friend casts fly, you may be able to get the +1 attack bonus for being on high ground.
8) If your buffing druid casts bite of the werebear, you get +16 strength and Power Attack (though it doesn't stack with your belt of giant strength).
9, 10, 11) Ask the cleric and druid for buff spells.

Reasons 3+ are a really big deal: using class features (read: spells), instead of just pumping strength and using expensive weapons, is a far more efficient method. Just bite of the werebear should put your strength at 32, for +25 to hit and an extra 10 points of damage.

[noce]

You start with 16 STR and you have a +2 item, but don't forget you gain a stat point at levels 4, 8 and 12. These should go to STR even in it results in an odd value (since later you will turn it even again).
GM decided the weapon for you, unfortunately. Earthbound (Eberron Campaign Setting) is a good weapon enhancement, it gives you +2 to hit AND damage as long as both you and your target are on the ground.
Another good weapon enhancement for warblades is Martial Discipline Weapon (Tome of Battle), it gives you +3 to hit as long as your active stance is from chosen discipline.
You can take Weapon Focus feat, for another +1 to hit. Warblade qualifies for Weapon Specialization at level 6 (+2 damage), and for Melee Weapon Mastery at level 10 (+2 to hit and damage). It is a total of +3 to hit and +4 to damage for three feats, and many players overlook this. If you have problems hitting, take at least Weapon Focus.
Law Devotion feat gives you a huge bonus to hit, usable 1/day. Depending on the campaign, one use can suffice. You can take it multiple times, each time adding an additional use.
Knowledge Devotion is a good feat, it gives you a bonus from +1 to +5 at both to hit and damage based on your knowledge skills. To qualify for it, a warblade should take at least 5 ranks of Knowledge(local), and to use it on every enemy you have to put at least 1 rank in K(religion), K(arcana), K(dungeons), K(nature) and K(planes). I said this feat is a good one, but warblades are not the class that can easily make use of it.
Remember to always be in a flanking position with an ally, this gives +2 to hit. If the party has the ability to trip, you gain +4 to hit tripped foes. If the party has a way to negate dexterity to armor class (for example a caster with Grease), you will hit more reliably. If enemies are not in melee, charging gives +2 to hit. Also, keep asking buffs to your party members.
Look for maneuvers and stances that increase your chance to hit. For example, Emerald Razor from Diamond Mind turns a melee attack in a touch attack. Keep in mind many maneuvers require a standard action, so you can't make a full attack action in that case.

[bean illus]

Generally:
1) Your strength modifier should be 6-8, not 4. A base 16, +3 from increases, +4 from a magic item, works out to 23 strength (+6). A base 17, +3 from increases, +6 from a magic item, works out to 26 (+8).
2) Your weapon should be +3, not because you have bought a +3 greataxe, but because you cast an Extended greater magic weapon at CL 12 once a day.

That alone puts your attack bonus at +22-24. At level 20, with a good 32 strength (16 + 5 + 6 + 5 from wishes) and a +5 weapon, you're talking a to-hit of +36.

Situationally:
3) Being a warblade, you can use Diamond Mind maneuvers to attack flat-footed AC or touch AC, which are often lower.
4) If you charge, you get another +2 to hit. If you flank, you get another +2 to hit. Ask your druid, cleric, or wizard to summon something to flank with.
5) If a bard inspires courage, you will get a +2 to hit and damage. +3 if they have a vest of legends. +4 if they have inspirational boost. +5 if they have a badge of valour. +10 if they have Words of Creation.
6) If your buffing friend casts haste, you get +1 to hit, and an extra attack on a full attack.
7) If your buffing friend casts fly, you may be able to get the +1 attack bonus for being on high ground.
8) If your buffing druid casts bite of the werebear, you get +16 strength and Power Attack (though it doesn't stack with your belt of giant strength).
9, 10, 11) Ask the cleric and druid for buff spells.

Reasons 3+ are a really big deal: using class features (read: spells), instead of just pumping strength and using expensive weapons, is a far more efficient method. Just bite of the werebear should put your strength at 32, for +25 to hit and an extra 10 points of damage.

BWAHAHAHAHAH ! ! (amem) exactly.

... and if you area flying charging flanking hasted werebear warblade using your discipline weapon you get +39 hit and +23 dam against touch/flat footed AC (pit fiend seems less impossible now?) POWER ATTACK! 80+/- points Dam 80% of the time, or full attack at 95%, 95%, 90%, 85%, (someone better than me may correct me), or something crazy, for even more damage.

Welcome to the wild world of optimization, where you one shot demons.

[Elder Inheritor]

ExLibrisMortis
1 & 2) Edited my responses out because I realized your original points were more general-type things. :smallbiggrin: I'm a smart*** so I like to argue. (Just poked at what I mentioned in my previous posts)

3) I mentioned Emerald Razor, and implied (though did not explicitly state) that I am not really free to spam the same thing round after round. It's distasteful to everyone at the table, which is why my Warlock was a crafter.
4) I mentioned flanking and charging, and proning too for that matter. I get summoned buddies every now and then, but often the cleric himself flanks with me.
5) Don't have a bard.
6, 7, 8) We don't have a buffing friend. The druid blows people up and debuffs, and the cleric SELF-buffs to be a mini-deity with a penchant for murdering infidels (cleric of Bane).
9, etc.) They don't usually have time to buff me before things hit the fan, and we're not always together. Also, sadly, our cleric doesn't use DMM for his own buffs either. He basically plays his cleric like a super-beefed-up paladin (including a summoned unicorn as his mount).

Noce
I put my points into Intelligence, so I could function in roleplay. It's really important to me as a player, to the character's entire story and purpose, and for the benefits of the game (we get permanent boons when we do well in roleplay, and I start off with one when I finish the character). He's supposed to have been a half-orc spirit that was bound to armor because he was the "greatest and smartest of his kind" in his Age some four hundred years ago.
Again, I mentioned trips, charging, flanking, and Emerald Razor in my first post.

Bean Illus
I'm not quite sure if you're being serious.
As for optimization, I've done my fair share in 4E. However, it should be noted that this is Practical Optimization, not Theoretical Optimization. My group works by many gentlemen's agreements, and even though we're allowed to do pretty much whatever we want, the other players at the table have as much power to say "No" as the GM. For that matter, if someone else mentioned playing a werebear, I'd probably throw one of my Cheetoh's at them before one of the other players made it to their (slightly more violent) PHB.

[ExLibrisMortis]

You might be missing the Shock Trooper feat? It's a feat that allows you to assign the PA attack penalty to AC, instead (on a charge). That way, you can PA for full and still hit, and then use Wall of Blades or something to counter anything left standing.

If the players at your table don't like you using Emerald Razor and Ruby Nightmare Blade every round, why is a self-buffing cleric acceptable? You're just using your class features, as are they, and theirs are quite frankly stronger. Idem for druid & psiwar.

You can ask the psiwar to teach you some psionics (take Wild Talent/Hidden Talent), and then use Psionic Weapon + Deep Impact to hit touch AC (a two-level dip in psiwar would accomplish this better, and since you already have one in the party, you could actually start that whole quest arc you mentioned). Combine with Ruby Nightmare Blade to hit flat-footed touch AC. That might sound strongish, but it requires a full-round action to charge up (to gain psionic focus, becomes a move if you take Psic Meditation), so you can only do it once per fight. Maybe that appeases your table.

If your party cleric & druid refuse to spend one or two slots to buff you, that's lame. You can try to bribe them by using [I]pearls of power, but that's expensive.


P.S. My search function cannot find the words "emerald", "razor", "diamond", "mind", or "maneuver" in your OP, so apologies if you did mention those things. You did mention tripping and flanking, but only in a hypothetical scenario; I did not know whether you were regularly getting flanks and trips.

[bean illus]

....snip.... so I like to argue.

and the cleric SELF-buffs to be a mini-deity

Bean Illus
I'm not quite sure if you're being serious.
As for optimization, I've done my fair share in 4E. However, it should be noted that this is Practical Optimization, not Theoretical Optimization. My group works by many gentlemen's agreements,

The cleric won't buff anyone and can be a mini-deity, but your class abilities are nerfed. Hmmm. Do they not realize that strategic buffing actually will vastly increase DPR, shorten melee, and therefor leave more resources to go around?

Let it be noted that there was little in the advice given that was TO. It is almost entirely PO. I certainly didn't mean to imply you had never played other games such as 4e, or that you aren't smart enough. Heck, i'm probably worse than you. I just got a smile to watch someone take a problem similar to one i might have and make it look easy to get +40 to hit at 13th level.


Maybe that appeases your table.

If your party cleric & druid refuse to spend one or two slots to buff you, that's lame. You can try to bribe them by using pearls of power, but that's expensive..

Your class abilities seem a bit nerfed, the cleric and other casters don't play 'traditional roles' of buffing the party front liners, you seem to have little control over your WBL

I think the problem with getting to +40 (which you mentioned) is due to your "gentlemen's agreements". Perhaps you should revisit them openly with your mates? Maybe you could just point out that if you're not the strongest one in the party perhaps you could retool any of the above.

[Elder Inheritor]

ExLibrisMortis
Ah, that makes more sense, Shock Trooper carries Power Attack hard. Thanks for pointing that out, that makes a huge difference!
The reason we find it acceptable is because the cleric plays like a Paladin. The spells really add up to having nice resistance to saves (divine grace), a pet unicorn (special mount), bull's strength + divine power + divine favor (decent melee), healing and removing diseases/curses (lay on hands, remove disease), and then other miscellaneous useful things to help everyone in combat (like Reach Spell resurgence, ray of resurgence, control winds + wind wall, etc.). He does use a Heroes' Feast every day for us and also preps a Freedom Of Movement or two just in case.
Actually, now that I think about it, I think I keep forgetting to add the morale bonus from Heroes' Feast to my attack rolls... Every little bit helps.
It isn't so much that Emerald Razor being used a lot would bother them... It's just that they saw White Raven and I'm pretty sure they'd be disappointing if the discipline didn't become a staple in combat. Except the Druid. She wouldn't really care either way.
P.S. I messed up, whoops! I apologize for that. Yeah, I do regularly get trips and flanks.

Bean Illus
I actually found amusement when you said, "where we one-shot demons". I wasn't intending to be contrary or icky when mentioning I have done some optimization, just stating that my level of optimization does not go so far as to include a were-beastie other than "The One and Only" lycanthrope (werewolf). The rest is fine, but the way it was strung together made me get that depressurized feeling like when I slow down for a red light. :smalltongue: I simply thought oh lordie, let's take it back a notch as soon as I saw werebear.
I think I'm going to ask the GM to make my story boon be either Haste or Overland Flight as an Extraordinary. Flying hasted charging really sounded like the right thing to do. I'm not sure if I want haste or flight more, though.

So essentially, what I'm getting in feedback is that to get an attack bonus high enough to hit those high-CR critters, you're pretty much required to get a method to hit touch AC, or find a way to get spellcaster buddies, or both?

[bean illus]

Flying or haste as a story boon would be fun, and help a lot, but i didn't catch your answer to the wealth by level issue. If not werebear (spells are better than gold) you could buy a belt of strength and/or an enlarging item. With the belt, the enlarge, and the haste, you would be hitting a lot more often. ?

ps: i also catch myself arguing.

[Elder Inheritor]

I chatted with the GM and I have taken Shock Trooper and I have taken Martial Stance for Child Of Shadow, so now I have 20% concealment without the cloak. He boosted my gauntlets of ogre power to a belt (+4) and gave me a headband of intellect (+2). The group told me they were cool with me grabbing Leadership once I turn level 15, with my cohort as an Artificer and the followers all as different types of Homonculi, though I'll only be bringing one homunculus, while the Artificer crafts. I know there is a dedicated wright, but frankly I don't want to deal with the bookkeeping of keeping around a second character; the homonculus I bring with me will be allowed to use a couple of the Arti's infusions on me to buff every now and then, so I'm completely and totally satisfied.

Thanks for the help guys! I wish there was a way to "friends list" people in the forum. :smalltongue:

[noce]

I chatted with the GM and I have taken Shock Trooper and I have taken Martial Stance for Child Of Shadow, so now I have 20% concealment without the cloak. He boosted my gauntlets of ogre power to a belt (+4) and gave me a headband of intellect (+2). The group told me they were cool with me grabbing Leadership once I turn level 15, with my cohort as an Artificer and the followers all as different types of Homonculi, though I'll only be bringing one homunculus, while the Artificer crafts. I know there is a dedicated wright, but frankly I don't want to deal with the bookkeeping of keeping around a second character; the homonculus I bring with me will be allowed to use a couple of the Arti's infusions on me to buff every now and then, so I'm completely and totally satisfied.

Thanks for the help guys! I wish there was a way to "friends list" people in the forum. :smalltongue:

I see you're getting it worked, good!
I just wanted to point out that a Tiger Claw maneuver, Pouncing Charge, lets you take a full attack at the end of the charge. I specifically mention this since you have Shock Trooper.

At level 13 you know 10 maneuvers, so you could afford to invest three in Tiger Claw for this, I think.

[Vaz]

As a heads up for Child of Shadow, you need to have a maneuvre of the discipline in question which Warblades do not have access to so need to burn a feat on Martial Study.

As others have said, BAB13, and Str 18 with a +1 Weapon gives you +18 to hit. That is under the assumption you have remembered the +Str/4 levels, if not, you get another +3 to hit for +21. As a Leap Attacker, I'm guessing Shock Trooper is a thing, and as you are attacking from higher up, you have a +1 for +22 to hit. When you charge, that is a +2 to hit also.

It is also worth asking your party Cleric for Greater Magic Weapon. On a 13th level Caster, it lasts for 13 hours, basically a full day. If he is crying about not having as much Divine Power to throw about, spend 16K on a Pearl of Power for him and tell him to quiet up. This gives you a further +2 to throw about, and are now at +24.

Of the MM1 CR13 threats, Beholders (AC26), Galbrezu (27), Ice Devil (32), Ghaele (25), Storm Giant (27), Iron Golem (30), Lich (23), Gray Slaad (28), Adult Green (27), Young Adult Red (26), Young Adult Silver (27); with the assumption that they are taller than you, you are averaging AC27-28 to hit. Now this is excluding those with buff spells and additional armour, and excluding they are larger than you so no +1 from higher point of view here, and you are baseline hitting it with 75-80% of primary attacks, and 50-60% of secondary, and 25-40% of Tertiary. Amd that doesn't include Charge Attacks.

As a Warblade, you are going to be Striking a lot. One of the Warblade Strikes lets you give up your additional attacks to make one attack at Full BAB as a Touch. That is basically auto hit, Emerald Razor. You can spend your Swift Action to replenish this.

Every turn, you can Emerald Razor for basically guaranteed damage.

[Elder Inheritor]

Noce
Yeah I got Pouncing Charge, Bounding Assault, and Raging Mongoose. I plan on using White Raven stuff at the start, then Adaptive Style to swap over to do those three in a burst when it is found necessary.


Vaz
Yes, I got Martial Study for Shadow Jaunt.
Uhhh. See past posts. Many of your points have already been discussed.