Best Abilities NOT in 5e?

[Deleted]

What are some of the best abilities that are currently unavailable to characters in 5e?

I'm going to go with the Bloodwalk (Su) from Tome & Blood's Blood Magus prestige class. Especially the "bloody exit" ability...

[NecroDancer]

The grave walkers ability to posses undead in pathfinder

[Hrugner]

I really liked the simple 3ed bard song ability. I also like the pit spells, I'd happily play a class based entirely around creating walls, digging pits and jumping around the mangled terrain to gain the upper hand. I think I could do it as a wizard illusionist in 5e, maybe.

[Deleted]

The grave walkers ability to posses undead in pathfinder

I don't play pathfinder, so I really can't understand how awesome that really is (it sounds like it though!).


I really liked the simple 3ed bard song ability. I also like the pit spells, I'd happily play a class based entirely around creating walls, digging pits and jumping around the mangled terrain to gain the upper hand. I think I could do it as a wizard illusionist in 5e, maybe.

My favorite bard was the 4e Essentials Skald because it reminds me of an upgraded 3e Bard.

Controllers are straight up awesome! A "pit-troller" would be fantastic!

[Specter]

Anything related to the Anointed Knight (3.5e). The sentient weapon, the ancestral relic, the ointments that gave boons, everything. They could have given it to us as a Paladin archetype, but they ran with much lamer semi-Oathbreaker choices. A shame.

[Deleted]

Anything related to the Anointed Knight (3.5e). The sentient weapon, the ancestral relic, the ointments that gave boons, everything. They could have given it to us as a Paladin archetype, but they ran with much lamer semi-Oathbreaker choices. A shame.

The went VERY SAFE with 5e, sadly...

A Blood Magus Sorcerer subclass at launch would have been great.

[Tanarii]

From 4e:
sword-mages teleporting all over the place with attacks.
barbarian primal rages
Warden polymorphing forms
Stances
Constant sliding, pushing and pulling (fun on battle-mat play, although I don't use that for 5e)

From AD&D & BECMI:
Henchmen / Retainers (easy to add back in tho)

[XmonkTad]

The Mindsight feat from 3.5! Actually, maybe we should be glad it's gone.
Then again, Darkstalker could make a comeback and I'd be OK with it.

[Sicarius Victis]

I don't play pathfinder, so I really can't understand how awesome that really is (it sounds like it though!)

The Gravewalker archetype for the Witch class in Pathfinder got a variety of undead-focused abilities. They got an Aura of Desecration, which increased the save DCs for channeled negative energy (such as whatever the evil version of 3.5 Turn Undead was called), as well as increasing the resistance of undead within the Aura against Turn and similar effects. At will, beginning at 1st level, the Gravewalker could attempt to take control of any undead within their Aura, even free-willed undead, though there was an immediate Will save for it, as well as one that free-willed ones got to attempt each day. The Gravewalker had limit to the amount of undead they could control, but that's still quite good for an at-will ability. In addition, the Gravewalker can directly take control of any of their undead within their Aura, as if using the Magic Jar spell, without a saving throw.

So, basically, they could (at higher levels) force a Lich to serve them, then possess them without a save, and make them commit suicide or something. At will. Fun, neh?

[Deleted]

From 4e:
sword-mages teleporting all over the place with attacks.
barbarian primal rages
Warden polymorphing forms
Stances
Constant sliding, pushing and pulling (fun on battle-mat play, although I don't use that for 5e)

From AD&D & BECMI:
Henchmen / Retainers (easy to add back in tho)

The best way to use a battle map type set up is to not use a battle map!

My groups stopped using battle maps for years, like the late 90's (damn... like almost two decades...) and we haven't looked back.

Get some little stick/rod thing, hobby stories have a bunch of different things you can use. Mark 1" down them (leave you some room to hold it) and use the standard 1" = 5". Get some "fuzzy sticks" from walmart or wherever and shape your spells and effects with those, cut when needed.

I use a Red Fuzzy stick for forced movement, I have it cut for 2" and I just hold it over a mini and say "it gets pushed back this far". I have a blue fuzzy stick to show how far I can shoot or cast a spell.

On the table you can buy or make a bunch of terrain and stuff, no need for markers or boards or maps/squares.

It isn't for everyone, but if you want the dynamic fights of 4e in 3e/5e then it is the best way to do it. Also makes setting up battles easy.


Missed This...



The Gravewalker archetype for the Witch class in Pathfinder got a variety of undead-focused abilities. They got an Aura of Desecration, which increased the save DCs for channeled negative energy (such as whatever the evil version of 3.5 Turn Undead was called), as well as increasing the resistance of undead within the Aura against Turn and similar effects. At will, beginning at 1st level, the Gravewalker could attempt to take control of any undead within their Aura, even free-willed undead, though there was an immediate Will save for it, as well as one that free-willed ones got to attempt each day. The Gravewalker had limit to the amount of undead they could control, but that's still quite good for an at-will ability. In addition, the Gravewalker can directly take control of any of their undead within their Aura, as if using the Magic Jar spell, without a saving throw.

So, basically, they could (at higher levels) force a Lich to serve them, then possess them without a save, and make them commit suicide or something. At will. Fun, neh?

Sounds more trouble than anything. I don't play high level (level 11 is about the highest I go) even in older system. We still play high level story lines and everything but the abilities and everything start to become a pain.

Something like this sounds like it could be fun if toned down a bit. At-Will taking over Lichs isn't fun, I like to have a challenge or interesting encounter.

[EvilAnagram]

Chaos Bolt. Usually, it was an okay cantrip. Occasionally, it killed five minions and smaked the master.

The Swordmage ability to teleport an enemy when he attacks and make his attack land on whomever you wish.

[Xetheral]

Ancestral Relic, Sword of the Arcane Order, Snowflake Wardance, Nymph's Kiss, Divine Might, Divine Shield, Fochlucan Lyrist, Sublime Chord, Urpriest, Master Thrower, Ultimate Magus, Armor of Darkness, Righteous Fury, Moonbow, Night's Caress, Heartclutch, Heart Ripper (awful spell, but fun concept), Nailed to the Sky, Summon Time Duplicate, Sirine's Grace, Towering Oak

[Tanarii]

It isn't for everyone, but if you want the dynamic fights of 4e in 3e/5e then it is the best way to do it. Also makes setting up battles easy.3e (sorta) and 5e (mostly) aren't set up to be as dynamic as 4e. It was full-on wuxia most of the time I played. Which is crazy fun.

Not saying you can't run 5e with minis. Of course you can. But it doesn't have the same level of tactical mobility and control built into the system that 4e had. That's fine by me ... I run 5e as theatre of the mind. It's fantastic for that, and a completely different feeling to the playstyle. Otoh I'm on a back-to-grognard-D&D kick, so this feels far more like my BECMI /AD&D 1e origins, so it's unsurprising I really like it. Also a change from my playing with minis solidly from 2e Combat & Tactics right through the end of 4e.

[Deleted]

Ancestral Relic, Sword of the Arcane Order, Snowflake Wardance, Nymph's Kiss, Divine Might, Divine Shield, Fochlucan Lyrist, Sublime Chord, Urpriest, Master Thrower, Ultimate Magus, Armor of Darkness, Righteous Fury, Moonbow, Night's Caress, Heartclutch, Heart Ripper (awful spell, but fun concept), Nailed to the Sky, Summon Time Duplicate, Sirine's Grace, Towering Oak

Ah, Nailed to the Sky, how I miss you dearly.


3e (sorta) and 5e (mostly) aren't set up to be as dynamic as 4e. It was full-on wuxia most of the time I played. Which is crazy fun.

Not saying you can't run 5e with minis. Of course you can. But it doesn't have the same level of tactical mobility and control built into the system that 4e had. That's fine by me ... I run 5e as theatre of the mind. It's fantastic for that, and a completely different feeling to the playstyle. Otoh I'm on a back-to-grognard-D&D kick, so this feels far more like my BECMI /AD&D 1e origins, so it's unsurprising I really like it. Also a change from my playing with minis solidly from 2e Combat & Tactics right through the end of 4e.

With the set up I'm talking about, 5e and 3e works just as well as 4e with regards to movement :). We've been making the shove, shove aside, grapple and overrun maneuvers a basic bonus action for martials and the Wuxia is still alive!

Though we were weird and we ran 4e theatre of the mind every so often... Not the best system to try that but it worked when the DM got his stuff stolen :(

[Foxhound438]

power attack being a thing you can do with any weapon

pathfinder lay on hands (with the mercy options, mostly, but bonus action to LoH yourself would be so sweet)

strength and a half for 2 handed weapons



If you notice, most of those powers are "in 5e", but not in anything close to the same form. I'm not a PF fanboy by any means (i've literally played one session of it), and I do like some of the versions 5e has. I just really like the way PF did certain features.

[TripleD]

3.5 Trapmaster/Combat Trapsmith ability to create traps. I feel like this could have been a really neat ability for Ranger to have if more thought had been put into the system.

Weapon crystals were a really neat idea from the end of 3.5 that I thought was a great way to decouple an enchantment from a weapon.

[ChubbyRain]

power attack being a thing you can do with any weapon

pathfinder lay on hands (with the mercy options, mostly, but bonus action to LoH yourself would be so sweet)

strength and a half for 2 handed weapons



If you notice, most of those powers are "in 5e", but not in anything close to the same form. I'm not a PF fanboy by any means (i've literally played one session of it), and I do like some of the versions 5e has. I just really like the way PF did certain features.

I was thinking about power attack earlier today.

If expertise wasn't a thing (I'm no longer a fan of it, though I won't say it isnt useful) I would say to make power attack a Bonus Action: Athletics (Str) versus Acrobatics (Dex) check.

If you hit with your attack AND the power attack check you gain bonus damage dependant on the weapon you attacked with.

1/2 prof for light weapons
Prof for weapons
2 × Prof for heavy weapons

Usable 1/round but doesn't stack with things like the GWM feat or whatever.

The issue is that classes that would USE power attack don't really need it as they are already powerful with weapons..

[GorinichSerpant]

Controllers are straight up awesome! A "pit-troller" would be fantastic!

To me pit-troller sounds like someone who trolls people with pits. Or someone who trolls in pits, which according to google means "to move around: ramble" but I can't help but imagine as the same thing trolls do under bridges. Both of which can easily apply to a controller class that relies on pits. This title works on so many levels.

[Vogonjeltz]

From 4e:
sword-mages teleporting all over the place with attacks.
barbarian primal rages
Warden polymorphing forms
Stances
Constant sliding, pushing and pulling (fun on battle-mat play, although I don't use that for 5e)

From AD&D & BECMI:
Henchmen / Retainers (easy to add back in tho)

Henchmen are in 5e though... (They mention them in the DMG, and general hireling pricing is in the PHB)

[Foxhound438]

The issue is that classes that would USE power attack don't really need it as they are already powerful with weapons..

my issue is more that certain martial builds (anything with a shield, anything trying to use dex in melee) end up just so far behind in damage compared to the ones that can have power attack that in a campaign that has something like GWM barbarian and a monk, the monk gets overshadowed so hard in combat that he might as well sit in a corner for most of it and it wouldn't make a difference.

[Byke]

Kung Fu Genius, Aesthetic Mage, forget the name of the feat that raised your caster level by 4

[Tanarii]

Henchmen are in 5e though... (They mention them in the DMG, and general hireling pricing is in the PHB)Meh, not by the standards I think of as henchmen 'rules'. But granted, by the standard of 5e simplifying just about everything, yes, they're there. Loyalty and Morale rules both exist. They also explicitly call out "followers", basically in the form of low level apprentices.

[Deleted]

To me pit-troller sounds like someone who trolls people with pits. Or someone who trolls in pits, which according to google means "to move around: ramble" but I can't help but imagine as the same thing trolls do under bridges. Both of which can easily apply to a controller class that relies on pits. This title works on so many levels.

If you are a controller in D&D you are basically that world's version of a "troll".

Pit-troller is pretty apt.


my issue is more that certain martial builds (anything with a shield, anything trying to use dex in melee) end up just so far behind in damage compared to the ones that can have power attack that in a campaign that has something like GWM barbarian and a monk, the monk gets overshadowed so hard in combat that he might as well sit in a corner for most of it and it wouldn't make a difference.

You are confuaing something. Just because those builds don't do the most damage ever, doesn't mean they are falling behind.

Sword n Board doesnt have to keep up with GWM, SnB has to keep up with the game. Same thing for the monk and any other build.

They all keep up with the game and surpass it just fine.

Monks aren't direct damage dealers, they like to spread the love, but up until really high levels they keep up with everyone in terms of what they can do versus the game.

The difference between 20 dpr and 25 dpr and 30 dpr only comes into play when an enemy's HP is between those numbers (which means last attack or it wasn't a challenge anyways) or a massive multiple of the higher number... Which doesn't really happen much as monster HP isn't all that much.

So an enemy has 60 HP. It takes, from above, (A) 3 turns, (B) 3 turns, and (C) 2 turn A to kill that monster. However, if the monster has 61 hp, it takes (A) 4 turns, (B) 3 turns, and (C) 3 turns.

However this is only if you are going 1 v 1, in actuality these three are a team and will probably focus fire so they will do 75 damage to the creature, killing it in one round.

My friends and I have realized that exact DPR doesn't matter as it doesnt tell you the whole story.


====

Also there needs to be a tradeoff of some sort or no one would play GWM if you can get the same damage but higher AC with SnB or monk or whatever.

Power Attack, for everything, is archaic.

[Coffee_Dragon]

Manipulate Form
Your Head Asplode

[Deleted]

Manipulate Form
Your Head Asplode

You reminded me of...

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/decerebrate.htm

[Coffee_Dragon]

You reminded me of...

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/decerebrate.htm

Along with most other save-or-suck-excessively effects.

[Asmotherion]

-Dread Necromancer that would be fashioned as a Sorcerous Origin. Allowing PC Lichdom (limited compared to the MM version) by level 18 as the Origin's Capstone.

-Tainted Scholar as a Wizard School.

-Hellfire Warlock as a chain of invocations, with prerequisits being a Fiendish Patron and some level requirements.

[erok0809]

You reminded me of...

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/decerebrate.htm

I can't link to it, since it's not OGL, but I think the paionic power Cranial Deluge is more appropriate. If you failed your save you took like 18d6 damage, and if it was enough to drop you to 0 your head exploded.

The Death Urge power was great too.

I think that'll be my answer for this thread, an official psionics system for PCs. I could do it with a sorcerer, but it just wouldn't feel the same with the current system. I know about the UA for psionics as well, but I can't call that complete.

[LordFluffy]

Soulknife class abilities
More of the alchemical items from 3.5 (I really think Alchemy should shine in the low magic item paradigm of 5e).

[JumboWheat01]

The Pale Master prestige class. While I've started to love and enjoy other types of spells than Necromancy, I still want my quasi-lich character, gods blast it.

[Deleted]

I can't link to it, since it's not OGL, but I think the paionic power Cranial Deluge is more appropriate. If you failed your save you took like 18d6 damage, and if it was enough to drop you to 0 your head exploded.

The Death Urge power was great too.

I think that'll be my answer for this thread, an official psionics system for PCs. I could do it with a sorcerer, but it just wouldn't feel the same with the current system. I know about the UA for psionics as well, but I can't call that complete.

The best way, I think, to do a Psionic system in 5e would be to take the classes from 3e (throw in some complete psionic :p) and set them up with the 4e Psionic system.

Out of 3e, 4e, and what we have seen of 5e... 4e is the only system that gave Psionics their own system that is worth calling them something other than arcane/divine magic.

[Talionis]

Swiftblade, Chameleon, Master Thrower, Spellthief (what we got wasn't the same mechanics), More Tome of Battle, Combat Trapsmith,

[Deleted]

Swiftblade, Chameleon, Master Thrower, Spellthief (what we got wasn't the same mechanics), More Tome of Battle, Combat Trapsmith,

Chameleon always had so much potential.

[Arkhios]

The ability to combine any single target (melee/ranged/touch range) spell with a weapon attack. Both Spellswords (3.5 PrC) and Magus (PF class) have this.

[ChubbyRain]

The ability to combine any single target (melee/ranged/touch range) spell with a weapon attack. Both Spellswords (3.5 PrC) and Magus (PF class) have this.

A bit round about and I don't particularly care for this class... Fighter let's you do it once per rest (yaaay -_-).

I'm going to build a Warcaster Sorcerer who will use quicken and weapon attacks.

[Arkhios]

A bit round about and I don't particularly care for this class... Fighter let's you do it once per rest (yaaay -_-).

I'm going to build a Warcaster Sorcerer who will use quicken and weapon attacks.

I thought we were talking about straight abilities to do X. Not about how you could accomplish X by combining abilities?

[ChubbyRain]

I thought we were talking about straight abilities to do X. Not about how you could accomplish X by combining abilities?

Quicken really is a good way to dual weild magic and weapons.

The EK gets a nifty ability that does this too (always forget about that) but gets it rather late and not enough spell slots to make it As good as the Magus.

[Arkhios]

Quicken really is a good way to dual weild magic and weapons.

The EK gets a nifty ability that does this too (always forget about that) but gets it rather late and not enough spell slots to make it As good as the Magus.

I'm aware of both and they are good round-abouts, but both of them combine two actions to do X instead of using just one action.
I would say that is the key difference here.

Besides, it isn't really unprecedent to accomplish such an act. Divine Smite, while not a spell, basically adds additional damage to one hit, without any more (bonus) actions used, only by expending spell slots.

[Hawkstar]

I'm going to have to go with "Bard Song". Party-wide, long-duration buffs from the bard.

When I heard the Bard was going to be a full caster this edition, I thought some of their spells would be bard songs (Like how the Paladin has spells that are Smites). I was highly disappointed when they weren't.

[Arkhios]

I'm going to have to go with "Bard Song". Party-wide, long-duration buffs from the bard.

When I heard the Bard was going to be a full caster this edition, I thought some of their spells would be bard songs (Like how the Paladin has spells that are Smites). I was highly disappointed when they weren't.

That is indeed a shame. I would love to see "spellsongs" being introduced for bards. It could be done afterwards, at least in theory.

[ChubbyRain]

I'm going to have to go with "Bard Song". Party-wide, long-duration buffs from the bard.

When I heard the Bard was going to be a full caster this edition, I thought some of their spells would be bard songs (Like how the Paladin has spells that are Smites). I was highly disappointed when they weren't.

I was quite disappointed that the Bard even had spells.

A Bard that works only with songs, poems, and music would have been so much better than just another full caster.

The 5e bard is... Underwhelming.

[JakOfAllTirades]

I really miss the Blistering Invective spell from PF, cuz using the Intimidate skill to set your enemies on fire never gets old.

[Deleted]

I really miss the Blistering Invective spell from PF, cuz using the Intimidate skill to set your enemies on fire never gets old.

Well...

I know what I need to add to my homebrew now XD.

Though I always like the glaring at someone amd making their blood run cold, but setting them on fire works too.

[Sigreid]

A real summoner, meaning a caster that can rely on conjuring monsters to fight for him as his main trick.

[ChubbyRain]

A real summoner, meaning a caster that can rely on conjuring monsters to fight for him as his main trick.

I feel that they dropped the ball on this.

The druid could have been a great summoner instead of a pseudo wizard/cleric.

[The Ship's dog]

4e Ritual Casting and some of the 4e Rituals (Comrades Succor mainly)
I.E: Rituals you could cast in combat to get benefits or the fact that Rituals weren't just spells with a tag but actual Rituals that you needed to find/buy and transcribe into a book.

Just being able to pick up Ritual Spells without needing to transcribe or study them/have a guide handy to be able to use them seems weird to me. They should be things that you need to spend time studying before you can use them rather than just grabbing them from Magical Secrets and suddenly knowing how to complete an ancient rite that has been perfected through time.

[Giant2005]

I like 5e's Warlock, bu not as much as I liked 3e's Warlock. Being able to cast infinitely is just awesome and much more rewarding considering you had to sell your soul to do it.
It is easy enough to houserule though.

[Deleted]

4e Ritual Casting and some of the 4e Rituals (Comrades Succor mainly)
I.E: Rituals you could cast in combat to get benefits or the fact that Rituals weren't just spells with a tag but actual Rituals that you needed to find/buy and transcribe into a book.

Just being able to pick up Ritual Spells without needing to transcribe or study them/have a guide handy to be able to use them seems weird to me. They should be things that you need to spend time studying before you can use them rather than just grabbing them from Magical Secrets and suddenly knowing how to complete an ancient rite that has been perfected through time.

This would have been an easy way to keep the Magic-Mart alive but get it away from weapons and other combat stuff.

Have a Magic-Mart that sells rituals that are more for conveyance or non-combat related. Give us something to spend money on!

Create Campsite was one of my favorite rituals, it was flavorful and useful but only once was it used for combat ( we were pretending that the BBEG didn't exist by ignoring him while we set up camp in his main room, we found out he had a fear of not being noticed or some weird jazz like that).


Side Note: I'm going to start, slowly, working on bringing rituals from 4e to 5e... Make them skill dependent and not class dependent.

[JumboWheat01]

As my cousin was curious about 4e and I had to flip through my book again, another thing hit me, the Hospitaler Paladin path. I would love to see a Paladin Oath that's based more around healing than fighting.

[Deleted]

As my cousin was curious about 4e and I had to flip through my book again, another thing hit me, the Hospitaler Paladin path. I would love to see a Paladin Oath that's based more around healing than fighting.

Some people will say "well, play a cleric". I don't think you should be so restricted and have to rely on the DM to be nice enough or experienced enough to play a simple character type (charisma healer with a bit of warrior).

One thing I loved about 3e&4e was that you could build pretty much anything you wanted based off any ability score you wanted. You could keep up with the game and do interesting things (some minor exceptions).

[The Ship's dog]

This would have been an easy way to keep the Magic-Mart alive but get it away from weapons and other combat stuff.

Have a Magic-Mart that sells rituals that are more for conveyance or non-combat related. Give us something to spend money on!

Create Campsite was one of my favorite rituals, it was flavorful and useful but only once was it used for combat ( we were pretending that the BBEG didn't exist by ignoring him while we set up camp in his main room, we found out he had a fear of not being noticed or some weird jazz like that).


Side Note: I'm going to start, slowly, working on bringing rituals from 4e to 5e... Make them skill dependent and not class dependent.

Ah yes, Create Campsite, whenever one of my party used a Create X Ritual we had a house rule of giving them a 50 foot berth. This was because the way we worked Rituals was, after you've set up your ancient bones/carvings/whatever, the Ritual caster would finish the Ritual and it would all just pop into being. We didn't want to get stuck halfway through a wall or something.

I really like that you are bringing 4e Rituals into 5e and would be glad to help if you want some.

[Asmotherion]

I like 5e's Warlock, bu not as much as I liked 3e's Warlock. Being able to cast infinitely is just awesome and much more rewarding considering you had to sell your soul to do it.
It is easy enough to houserule though.

Well, it has been granted to a degree via invocations... I supposed some homebrew invocations can always be made for extra by keeping game balance in mind.

Some usefull spells to consider as at-will invocations:
-Telekinesis (Objects Only, as per the "Ring of Telekinesis", 15th level.)
-Counterspell (3rd level version, Does not include the part about automatically negating lower spell levels, higher DC of 15+spell level. 11th level)
-Fly (Self only, 14th level)
-Misty Step (8th level)
-Blink (11th level)
-Mirror Image (8th level)

[Deleted]

Ah yes, Create Campsite, whenever one of my party used a Create X Ritual we had a house rule of giving them a 50 foot berth. This was because the way we worked Rituals was, after you've set up your ancient bones/carvings/whatever, the Ritual caster would finish the Ritual and it would all just pop into being. We didn't want to get stuck halfway through a wall or something.

I really like that you are bringing 4e Rituals into 5e and would be glad to help if you want some.

It's on my list, though I want to get my martial and psionic generic classes out of the way before I tackle the rituals... Though I think the rituals will go by quite easily.

I want to make rituals the technology of the world. You go to a store and buy a movie to watch, this is a ritual that projects a show.

Someone wants to get their house *really really really* clean? There is a ritual for that.

Are you wealthy and travel a lot? Well, we have the "Create Campsite" ritual but... How about a "Create Hut" ritual for an up-charge? Or better yet, a "Create House"... Now sadly these can't last for too long (10 hours and then need to recharge) but if you want luxury during those 10 hours...

Make Find Familiar expensive, much like buying a drone. The rat version would be a bit cheaper than the owl version, and there are privacy laws to protect citizens from pervs (which should/would be there even without rituals lol).

[The Ship's dog]

It's on my list, though I want to get my martial and psionic generic classes out of the way before I tackle the rituals... Though I think the rituals will go by quite easily.

Ah yes, I see now on your sig. If you haven't already, look at the 4e Psionics system as a starting point when you get there.

[Deleted]

Ah yes, I see now on your sig. If you haven't already, look at the 4e Psionics system as a starting point when you get there.

Oh yes, that is definitely what it will be based around.

4e Psionics need a bit of work, but at its core, it's the best psionic system that I've seen. Hell, I would say it's my favorite magic system.

Base Ability + flexible upgrade system = win

[Giant2005]

Well, it has been granted to a degree via invocations... I supposed some homebrew invocations can always be made for extra by keeping game balance in mind.

Some usefull spells to consider as at-will invocations:
-Telekinesis (Objects Only, as per the "Ring of Telekinesis", 15th level.)
-Counterspell (3rd level version, Does not include the part about automatically negating lower spell levels, higher DC of 15+spell level. 11th level)
-Fly (Self only, 14th level)
-Misty Step (8th level)
-Blink (11th level)
-Mirror Image (8th level)

It is easier to change the Pact Magic feature itself than to try to come up with a bunch of new Invocations.
Just give them the spellcasting progression of a 1/3 caster and a single spell slot that can only be used for Warlock spells and is regained at the start of your turn. Maybe you can get a second spell slot at level 11 so you can cast multiple spells per round (which would be relevant for Reaction spells like Hellish Rebuke).

[Deleted]

It is easier to change the Pact Magic feature itself than to try to come up with a bunch of new Invocations.
Just give them the spellcasting progression of a 1/3 caster and a single spell slot that can only be used for Warlock spells and is regained at the start of your turn. Maybe you can get a second spell slot at level 11 so you can cast multiple spells per round (which would be relevant for Reaction spells like Hellish Rebuke).

I think they shouldn't get spell slots at all. Give them cantrips, invocations (some can give 1/short or 1/long rest spells), and some other features. Having spell slots makes them feel too much like a normal caster and they are anything but.

I don't like that they essentially have two subclasses. I think their pacts should be completely moved into invocations.

Potentially like...

Level 1: Cantrips, Invocations (2)
Level 2: Patron
Level 3: Additional Invocation (3)

Why Invocations before Patron? This shows that at one point the warlock was being recruited by one or more entities and that the basic warlock is all that great (just gaining cantrips on their own). Maybe you were recruited by a Fey and a Fiend entity and so you have an Enchantment Invocation and a Evocation Invocation? However, once you got powerful enough, you had to make a choice... Who will you get power from in exchange for your soul/servitude?

Having Pact Weapon, Tomes Pact, or Chain Pact being placed into invocations also gives you the choice of not taking any of those. Maybe you want to focus on your Eldritch Blast and Patron spells?

[Talionis]

Vestiges from Fifth edition. I think they could make wonderful Patrons for Warlocks.

I like current Warlock casting, but I think they should add more invocations so that Warlocks have more choices where that is concerned. Just more ability to customize.

[Deleted]

Vestiges from Fifth edition. I think they could make wonderful Patrons for Warlocks.

I like current Warlock casting, but I think they should add more invocations so that Warlocks have more choices where that is concerned. Just more ability to customize.

The more I think about it, the more I realize that 3.5's Binder might just be the best class (magical) ever created. It is filled with the best fluff, mostly balanced, has a simple and complex way of playing them, and can be homebrewed/fixed (there were a few minor things) quite easily.

They have so much to offer, yet have so much potential.

The Sign and Influence parts of the class are absolutely lovely.

Just in case someone hasn't ran across the Binder before... Here you go

WotC Class Chronicles: http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/frcc/20070718

Binder Guide: http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2942.0


Honestly, D&D has two warlocks that I support... The 4e Warlock and the 3.5 Binder.




Eurynome, Mother of the Material

Eurynome grants lordship over the water and the beasts of land, seas, and air. She also gives those with whom she binds some of the might of titans.

Legend: Stories say that before recorded time, the gods and titans battled on the Outer Planes. Tired of the struggle, the titan Eurynome fl ed to the roiling chaos that made up the Material Plane. She divided the world into sky and sea, and then she danced alone upon the waves. Incensed by her impertinence in meddling with a world as yet unformed, the gods struck Eurynome down. Angered by her abandonment of their fight, her fellow titans refused to come to her aid. Eurynome’s body became the first island, her blood became the first river, and her soul became a vestige.

Special Requirement: Eurynome hates Amon for some unknown reason and will not answer your call if you are already bound to him.

Manifestation: If Eurynome’s myth is true, she has fallen far since battling gods and shaping the deeps and the firmament. Eurynome manifests as a horrid conglomeration of humanoid, avian, and piscine forms. Her arms are octopus tentacles, her legs are those of a hawk, and her mouth is an owl’s beak. Wings shaped like great fish fins extend from her back, and she has no eyes—only lampreylike mouths where her visual orbs should be.

Sign: Your skin becomes clammy, and you leave moist prints on any object your body touches, even if clothing blocks direct contact. These marks evaporate after about 1 minute.

Influence: Eurynome’s influence makes you paranoid and ungrateful; you see secret motives and possible betrayals behind every action. Eurynome requires that you not attack a foe unless an ally has already done so. If no allies are present, she makes no such requirement.

Granted Abilities: Eurynome grants you the ability to befriend animals, walk on water, and wield a massive hammer. In addition, she turns your blood into poison and gives you resistance to weapon blows.

Animal Friend: All animals automatically have an initial attitude of friendly toward you.

Damage Reduction: You gain damage reduction 2/lawful.

Eurynome’s Maul: As a swift action, you can summon a Large magic warhammer (2d6 damage, ×3 crit). You are proficient with this weapon and can wield it in one hand without penalty. Your warhammer’s exact bonus and abilities depend on your effective binder level, according to the following table.

Poison Blood: While you are bound to Eurynome, your blood becomes poisonous. Any creature that ingests it (by either making a bite attack against you or swallowing you whole) gets messed up

Water Dancing: At will water walk, it affects only you.

[The Ship's dog]

I think they shouldn't get spell slots at all. Give them cantrips, invocations (some can give 1/short or 1/long rest spells), and some other features. Having spell slots makes them feel too much like a normal caster and they are anything but.

I don't like that they essentially have two subclasses. I think their pacts should be completely moved into invocations.

Potentially like...

Level 1: Cantrips, Invocations (2)
Level 2: Patron
Level 3: Additional Invocation (3)

Why Invocations before Patron? This shows that at one point the warlock was being recruited by one or more entities and that the basic warlock is all that great (just gaining cantrips on their own). Maybe you were recruited by a Fey and a Fiend entity and so you have an Enchantment Invocation and a Evocation Invocation? However, once you got powerful enough, you had to make a choice... Who will you get power from in exchange for your soul/servitude?

Having Pact Weapon, Tomes Pact, or Chain Pact being placed into invocations also gives you the choice of not taking any of those. Maybe you want to focus on your Eldritch Blast and Patron spells?

I think the fact that they have unique spell slots makes them unique enough from any other caster. They are pretty unique already considering they are the only spellcasting class that gets invocations, their spell slots restore on short rests and they get Mystic Arcanum, which is a really cool feature.

Saying that they have spell slots so they feel like any other caster is like saying they have Cantrips so they feel like any other caster. Their spell slots are completely different from any other caster apart from the fact that they cast magic with them and they have levels.

Also, invocations don't have to be from Patrons, in fact, in the PHB it just says that
'In your studies of occult lore you have unearthed eldritch invocations that you imbue with an abiding magical ability'

I think the fact that Invocations aren't tied to Patrons are a good thing because it makes it easier to make a unique character even if they share a Patron with another Warlock, they can make a mechanically completely different character from that other Warlock depending on what Invocations they pick up.

[Deleted]

I think the fact that they have unique spell slots makes them unique enough from any other caster. They are pretty unique already considering they are the only spellcasting class that gets invocations, their spell slots restore on short rests and they get Mystic Arcanum, which is a really cool feature.

Saying that they have spell slots so they feel like any other caster is like saying they have Cantrips so they feel like any other caster. Their spell slots are completely different from any other caster apart from the fact that they cast magic with them and they have levels.

Also, invocations don't have to be from Patrons, in fact, in the PHB it just says that
'In your studies of occult lore you have unearthed eldritch invocations that you imbue with an abiding magical ability'

I think the fact that Invocations aren't tied to Patrons are a good thing because it makes it easier to make a unique character even if they share a Patron with another Warlock, they can make a mechanically completely different character from that other Warlock depending on what Invocations they pick up.

The issue is that they aren't different enough from the other casters to warrant being a separate class... Really they could have been an alternative Cleric.

Having Cantrips (minor magic abilities) is something even a race can do without a class, elves and gnomes specifically, and generally show the most basic of connections with the other spell casters.

A football player and a basketball player both use a ball for their sport, but they play drastically different sports. Rugby and Football aren't all that drastically different (yes, I watch both) because they do similar things with their balls.

I think focusing on Invocations and not spell slots, would make a Warlock more of a Warlock. Spell slots take up too much of the Warlock.

Tie the invocations to patrons, tie everything but the most basic of things to the patron. Without the Patron the Warlock is nothing, hit that home, it is one of the reasons why they went Warlock in the first place. Quick and easy power, trying to protect someone they don't have the power to protect, boredom, or whatever reason boils down to their base features lacking in some way.

The Bard has a similar issue in 5e. Too much about the bard has gone away from what a bard is... A charismatic musician. Instead of spells, the Bard should have gained songs. Hell, the same progression would work well for the Bard...

Level 1: Cantrips, Bardic Song
Level 2: Bardic Subclass (make them a jack of all trades)
Level 3: Bardic Song
Level 4: Ability Score Increase
Level 5: Bardic Subclass Feature
Level 6: Bard Class Feature
Level 7: Bardic Song

Right now, the Warlock's (and the Bard's) identity is being taken over by just spell casting when they are so much more than spellcasting. It would be like making the Paladin less martially inclined and more of a spell caster (coughClericcough).

[Ziegander]

Vestiges from Fifth edition. I think they could make wonderful Patrons for Warlocks.

I like current Warlock casting, but I think they should add more invocations so that Warlocks have more choices where that is concerned. Just more ability to customize.

I hate to self-promote so shamelessly, but I've been working on this for a while now and I'm still getting little feedback on the project.

The Vestige Patrons Series (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?512877-The-Vestige-Patrons-Series-or-How-the-Warlock-Became-the-Binder). :smallwink:

[Deleted]

I hate to self-promote so shamelessly, but I've been working on this for a while now and I'm still getting little feedback on the project.

The Vestige Patrons Series (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?512877-The-Vestige-Patrons-Series-or-How-the-Warlock-Became-the-Binder). :smallwink:

Shame on you, shame on your family, and shame on your dog!

I'll be taking a look at this later :P

[Herobizkit]

I actually miss 4e Rituals.

I also miss the Cleric/Warlock PrC from Complete Arcane (?) that let you convert your Eldritch Blast into a Heal beam.

Also, the Chameleon and the Ballisteer (both were on WotC 3x pages way back when).

[Ziegander]

Nifft also has done a really great 5e Chameleon-as-base-class somewhere on the boards. Let me look it up.

EDIT: Voila! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?436422-Nifft-s-5e-Chameleon-Base-Class-PEACH)

[JumboWheat01]

I actually miss 4e Rituals.

I also miss the Cleric/Warlock PrC from Complete Arcane (?) that let you convert your Eldritch Blast into a Heal beam.

Also, the Chameleon and the Ballisteer (both were on WotC 3x pages way back when).

There was a healing Eldritch Blast? That's up there with The Old Republic having some healing abilities being shooting someone in the face and healing rockets.

[Deleted]

There was a healing Eldritch Blast? That's up there with The Old Republic having some healing abilities being shooting someone in the face and healing rockets.

Reminds me of 8 Bit Theater's Healing Shiv...

[Talionis]

I actually miss 4e Rituals.

I also miss the Cleric/Warlock PrC from Complete Arcane (?) that let you convert your Eldritch Blast into a Heal beam.

Also, the Chameleon and the Ballisteer (both were on WotC 3x pages way back when).

No they don't need at will healing blasts in 5E but yes they had them in 3.5. It was Complete Mage, Eldritch Disciple.

[Herobizkit]

No they don't need at will healing blasts in 5E but yes they had them in 3.5. It was Complete Mage, Eldritch Disciple.As I recall, you had to burn your clerical Turning attempts to "power" the beam so you could only do X amount per day. Still pretty rad considering the EB got up to like 12d6 or so. Imagine if 5e EB'ers could do it...

[ChubbyRain]

As I recall, you had to burn your clerical Turning attempts to "power" the beam so you could only do X amount per day. Still pretty rad considering the EB got up to like 12d6 or so. Imagine if 5e EB'ers could do it...

Didn't you get more of those with like Nightsticks or something like that? Which is why DMM cheese happened?