Getting extra Swift actions (3.5)

[flappeercraft]

So is there a magic item or spell that allows you to get an extra swift action per round? Like other than Shapechange into a chronotyrin

[J-H]

The Belt of Battle (MIC) is the usual go-to for a few extra actions.

Ruby Knight Vindicator lets you burn Turn Undead uses for Swift Actions as a class ability.

[flappeercraft]

The Belt of Battle (MIC) is the usual go-to for a few extra actions.

Ruby Knight Vindicator lets you burn Turn Undead uses for Swift Actions as a class ability.

About the Belt of battle, it cannot unfortunately give you extra Swift actions and it actually uses one up due to it being activated with an Immediate action, also unfortunately I cannot really use Ruby knight vindicator, I can only use magic items or spells.

[Aharon]

About the Belt of battle, it cannot unfortunately give you extra Swift actions and it actually uses one up due to it being activated with an Immediate action, also unfortunately I cannot really use Ruby knight vindicator, I can only use magic items or spells.

Spells: Time Stop, Celerity line
Psionic Powers: Temporal Acceleration, Synchronicity, Schism, Anticipatory Strike

[flappeercraft]

Guys, I honestly do not need more ways to get standard actions atm, what I need are swift actions/immediate actions not any other kind of actions.

[Douglas]

There are exceedingly few ways to gain swift actions. Ruby Knight Vindicator and Shapechange into a chronotyrin are literally the only ones I know of, and I think it might truly be an exhaustive list.

[Efrate]

What exactly are you trying to get the actions to use for? Other than the spells and things mentioned, only thing that comes close to mind is the epic feat extra quickened spell.

Shapechange into something with a hive mind and split would work as well...but you are getting into weird territory there.

[Aharon]

Guys, I honestly do not need more ways to get standard actions atm, what I need are swift actions/immediate actions not any other kind of actions.

Some of the ways I mentioned give you rounds of actions (time stop, temporal acceleration) - which includes swift/immediates. That is not what you want?

[Gusmo]

Synads are a race in the Expanded Psionics Handbook that can get an extra swift per day, two if you take their racial feat. I think just about everything else has been mentioned already. This is one of the few ways accessible at low levels. Otherwise shapechanging into a chronotyryn (Fiend Folio) and other such monsters (I don't know others off the top of my head) are generally the best option if you're not willing to be a ruby knight vindicator or psionics user for things like schism or temporal acceleration which might not grant them in a manner that works for you.

[Darrin]

Guys, I honestly do not need more ways to get standard actions atm, what I need are swift actions/immediate actions not any other kind of actions.

Standard actions are one of the few ways to use more swift actions in a round, via the "ready an action" rules. The timing, however, gets a bit tricky.

[lylsyly]

Synads are a race in the Expanded Psionics Handbook ...

That would be the Complete Psionics.

[Telonius]

Probably not too helpful, but Thrall of Demogorgon (BoVD) allows you to take two rounds of actions in a single round, twice per day.

[flappeercraft]

Some of the ways I mentioned give you rounds of actions (time stop, temporal acceleration) - which includes swift/immediates. That is not what you want?
What I need is not to cast Swift/Immediate action spells as buffs or anything, what I need is to get more swift actions during combat to be able to use them to intervene with what others do via Wings of Cover but if I use the swift actions I already have then I lose a lot of offensive power.


What exactly are you trying to get the actions to use for? Other than the spells and things mentioned, only thing that comes close to mind is the epic feat extra quickened spell.

Shapechange into something with a hive mind and split would work as well...but you are getting into weird territory there.

Im trying to use them to activate an item of wings of cover mid combat. I already have the shapechange into a chronotyrin in use.


Standard actions are one of the few ways to use more swift actions in a round, via the "ready an action" rules. The timing, however, gets a bit tricky.

Could you explain how or give me source please?

[Darrin]

Could you explain how or give me source please?

PHB p. 160: "You can ready a standard action, a move action, or a free action." (emphasis added)

XPH p. 59: "You can take a swift action any time you would normally be allowed to take a free action." (emphasis added)

Swift actions didn't exist when the PHB was written, but if you can ready a free action, then you can ready a swift action.

The tricky part is when you take your readied action, is that considered "your turn", and is it a separate turn than the one you first declared your readied action on? By my reading, yes, your readied action becomes your next turn and your initiative count changes to reflect that. You are still limited to one swift action on that turn. It doesn't count as an immediate action because swift and immediate actions are distinctly different action types, and presumably you didn't ready an immediate action.

If you can get multiple standard actions (contingency abuse, Factotum's Cunning Surge, polymorph shenanigans, etc.) a round, then it may be possible to layer multiple readied actions during the same round, although you'll want to be really careful with how you word the triggering conditions. However, if you actually manage to do this, it's somewhat likely you're doing something that will get books thrown at your head. (Wear a helmet.)

[flappeercraft]

PHB p. 160: "You can ready a standard action, a move action, or a free action." (emphasis added)

XPH p. 59: "You can take a swift action any time you would normally be allowed to take a free action." (emphasis added)

Swift actions didn't exist when the PHB was written, but if you can ready a free action, then you can ready a swift action.

The tricky part is when you take your readied action, is that considered "your turn", and is it a separate turn than the one you first declared your readied action on? By my reading, yes, your readied action becomes your next turn and your initiative count changes to reflect that. You are still limited to one swift action on that turn. It doesn't count as an immediate action because swift and immediate actions are distinctly different action types, and presumably you didn't ready an immediate action.

If you can get multiple standard actions (contingency abuse, Factotum's Cunning Surge, polymorph shenanigans, etc.) a round, then it may be possible to layer multiple readied actions during the same round, although you'll want to be really careful with how you word the triggering conditions. However, if you actually manage to do this, it's somewhat likely you're doing something that will get books thrown at your head. (Wear a helmet.)

Could I cast Twin Celerity and ready one of those actions to attack immediately with a swift action spell and ready the other one to block attacks through the use of Wings of Cover? Also could I do it twice if I'm Shapechanged into a Chronotyrin?

[Knight Magenta]

PHB p. 160: "You can ready a standard action, a move action, or a free action." (emphasis added)

XPH p. 59: "You can take a swift action any time you would normally be allowed to take a free action." (emphasis added)

Swift actions didn't exist when the PHB was written, but if you can ready a free action, then you can ready a swift action.

The tricky part is when you take your readied action, is that considered "your turn", and is it a separate turn than the one you first declared your readied action on? By my reading, yes, your readied action becomes your next turn and your initiative count changes to reflect that. You are still limited to one swift action on that turn. It doesn't count as an immediate action because swift and immediate actions are distinctly different action types, and presumably you didn't ready an immediate action.

If you can get multiple standard actions (contingency abuse, Factotum's Cunning Surge, polymorph shenanigans, etc.) a round, then it may be possible to layer multiple readied actions during the same round, although you'll want to be really careful with how you word the triggering conditions. However, if you actually manage to do this, it's somewhat likely you're doing something that will get books thrown at your head. (Wear a helmet.)

Just because you can use swift action when you can use free action, and you can ready free action, does not mean you can ready swift actions.

The first rule from the PHB is a restriction of type; It answers "what can I ready?" The rule from the XPH is a timing restriction; It answers "when can I take actions?" The two rules have no interaction whatsoever.

[Darrin]

The first rule from the PHB is a restriction of type; It answers "what can I ready?" The rule from the XPH is a timing restriction; It answers "when can I take actions?" The two rules have no interaction whatsoever.

Swift actions are a type of free action, as per the XPH. So long as you are observing the "one swift per turn" and are using it at the appropriate time, I don't see how this is a valid argument against readying swift actions.

[Knight Magenta]

Swift actions are a type of free action, as per the XPH. So long as you are observing the "one swift per turn" and are using it at the appropriate time, I don't see how this is a valid argument against readying swift actions.

That's not what it says. per your quote:


XPH p. 59: "You can take a swift action any time you would normally be allowed to take a free action."


A swift action is something you could do when you can take a free action. That is: during your turn or as part of another action. If it said what you are reading it would be:

"A swift action is a kind of free action. You may take only one swift action per turn."

[martixy]

A swift action can be taken any time you are allowed to take a free action. Add to that the restriction that a swift action can only be taken once per turn.

In fact the only 2 mechanical qualifiers that we get, outside of the additional restriction, equate swift actions to free actions.

Logically this makes swift actions a strict subset of free actions. A subset that does not include ANY other restriction other than "once per turn".

From this stipulation two things follow:
1. You may ready Swift actions.
2. You can perform a Swift action while performing other actions.

Things do not need to be spelled out explicitly to make sense.
If A = B and B = C, you do not need an explicit stipulation that A = C to know it is true.

[Psyren]

Rules Compendium pg. 110: "You can ready a standard action, a move action, a swift action, or a free action." There, debate over.

Note that you can't use a readied swift until your turn is over: "Ready lets you prepare to take an action later, after your turn is over but before your next one has begun." This means that to get two swifts in a row, you have to use your first one before ending your turn. It also means that you may end up wasting your move action, if you don't find an opportunity to use it before using your standard to ready and ending your turn.

[Gusmo]

By my reckoning, if you've cheesed your way into infinite or arbitrarily high spells per day somehow, plus daze immunity, this lets you get infinite actions in a turn. Lesser amounts of optimization created a high nova potential.

Standard action: Ready action to cast twinned celerity (creating extra standards 3 and 4) after I do second action of twinned celerity from my swift action (you'd need to specify the real action, obviously).
Swift action: Twinned celerity (creating extra standards 1 and 2)
Extra Standard 1: anything you want
ES 2: anything you want
ES 3: ready twinned celerity after I do action in ES 4
ES 4: anything you want
ES 5: ready twinned celerity after I do action in ES 6
ES 6: anything you want
ES 7: ready twinned celerity after I do action in ES 8
ES 8: anything you want
ES 9: ready twinned celerity after I do action in ES 10
ES 10: anything you want
...and on and on...

Edit: I'm sure there's a way to make this nuts with arcane fusion. Hoo boy.

[flappeercraft]

By my reckoning, if you've cheesed your way into infinite or arbitrarily high spells per day somehow, plus daze immunity, this lets you get infinite actions in a turn. Lesser amounts of optimization created a high nova potential.

Standard action: Ready action to cast twinned celerity (creating extra standards 3 and 4) after I do second action of twinned celerity from my swift action (you'd need to specify the real action, obviously).
Swift action: Twinned celerity (creating extra standards 1 and 2)
Extra Standard 1: anything you want
ES 2: anything you want
ES 3: ready twinned celerity after I do action in ES 4
ES 4: anything you want
ES 5: ready twinned celerity after I do action in ES 6
ES 6: anything you want
ES 7: ready twinned celerity after I do action in ES 8
ES 8: anything you want
ES 9: ready twinned celerity after I do action in ES 10
ES 10: anything you want
...and on and on...

Edit: I'm sure there's a way to make this nuts with arcane fusion. Hoo boy.

I actually never thought of that, but I did think of a Time stop loop which is very similar (Celerity Empowered Maximized Time Stop, 6-7 rounds of whatever you want, Celerity Empowered Maximized Time Stop, and go on)

Also about the arcane fusion thing, use GAF with Practical metamagic twin and easy metamagic twin and do GAF Twin Celerity, Celerity. With that then 3 standard actions instead of 2. For maximum effect make it Sanctum Quickened GAF Twin Celerity, Celerity.

[DarkSoul]

If you're already at the "shapechange into a chronotyryn" level of play, how close are you to being able to take the Multispell feat? That's what you're looking for anyway.

[Knight Magenta]

A swift action can be taken any time you are allowed to take a free action. Add to that the restriction that a swift action can only be taken once per turn.

In fact the only 2 mechanical qualifiers that we get, outside of the additional restriction, equate swift actions to free actions.

Logically this makes swift actions a strict subset of free actions. A subset that does not include ANY other restriction other than "once per turn".

From this stipulation two things follow:
1. You may ready Swift actions.
2. You can perform a Swift action while performing other actions.

Things do not need to be spelled out explicitly to make sense.
If A = B and B = C, you do not need an explicit stipulation that A = C to know it is true.

So Psyren ended our debate about readying, but I have to respond to your logic.

"A swift action can be taken any time you are allowed to take a free action." is not A = B

Let me use a parallel here:

You can take a 5-foot step whenever you can take any action. By your logic, [5-foot step] = [any other action]
Therefore, [any other action] = [5-foot step] = [full attack]
That means I can take a second full attack in place of my five foot step.
That's ridiculous.

[Darrin]

"A swift action can be taken any time you are allowed to take a free action." is not A = B

Let me use a parallel here:


You're mischaracterizing our argument (Straw Man) and your counter-argument is using a faulty syllogism.

You're characterizing a 5-foot step as a full equivalent of [any other action]. The same argument would be "all poodles are dogs, therefore all dogs are poodles." But that's not what we're arguing.

Swift actions are a subset of free actions. Yes, you are correct when you say these are not always interchangeably equivalent. But in the case of readying an action, the rules are asking for a general category (dogs), not a restrictive category (all dogs except poodles, only toy breeds, only Scooby, etc.).

Another way to put it would be, the Ready An Action rules say you can only ready a cat, dog, or turtle. I hand the rules a poodle (the swift action), which counts as a type of dog (dogs = free actions). So yes, I'm saying you can ready a poodle because it's a type of dog.



That's ridiculous.

Quite possibly! Although I was aiming for 'pedantic'.