3.5 Barbarian Questions

[Curtisw2000]

So I'm still very new to playing D&D so I have some specific questions about a barbarian I'm thinking of creating. I'm not sure if they are good questions or complete newb questions. Basically I'm just looking for any thoughts on them. We're doing a character building session this weekend to start a 3.5e game and I've been thinking about ideas I might like to try.

Question #1
Dual Wielding Barbarian... good idea or horrible idea?
Traditionally I think of a barbarian as wielding a single giant weapon and dealing out tons of damage with said weapon; but what if it wasn't like that. What if he (or she) was using 2 weapons in those massively strong arms? So would this be an option worth exploring? Does anyone have experience with it? Thoughts in general are all appreciated.

Question #2
(Assuming it isn't a waste) What weapons should I use?
What would be good options if one decided the path of a Dual Wielding Barbarian? Should they be a matched set? Or should you try to mix up the type (like doing a slashing with a bludgeoning or something)?

Question #3
What about wielding a single large weapon?
Kind of completely opposite idea; what if you take Monkey Grip as your first feat and wield a large sized greataxe? The Player's Manual gives the damage of a large 1d12 weapon (when medium sized) as 3d6. To me (again the inexperienced guy) that sounds like a reasonable trade off for the -2 to hit you'd suffer. But I wanted some other opinions on this. Has anyone tried it? Would a DM normally allow that (for a lvl 1)?

I'm really looking for any feedback on all of these questions. Pros/Cons or just general thoughts. Anything is appreciated.

[Doctor Despair]

You're probably best off planning for one weapon, since TWF requires so many feats and would require you to have more high stats. On that note, try being a large race like a Half-Ogre, wield a single handedly weapon with two hands (letting you wield a longsword one size category higher than normal) and take monkey grip for a truly comically large weapon. Take Power Attack early and go into the cleave tree for shenanigans

[GilesTheCleric]

I agree with the Doctor on point 1. In regards to points 2 and 3:

Pick whatever kinds of weapons you like. There's some feats (Eg. High Sword, Low Axe, or Lightning Mace) that require you to have specific weapons, but otherwise, the dice differences really don't matter all that much. If you find a weapon with a neat extra ability (like a Sai for disarming or something), then that might be a good reason to use a specific one. Having bludgeoning damage available is definitely important, or else you'll be very vulnerable to swarms.

Monkey Grip is definitely an appealing feat, but there's better ways to get to where you're going. Size increases (actual + virtual + weapon) will increase your damage much better. For example, consider a race like Goliath that has Large Build, then add Enlarge Person/ Psionic Expansion, plus a magic weapon that counts as a size larger, and suddenly you're three dice bumps ahead, rather than one.

Whether your GM will be okay with these kinds of things depends on your table. If you're all fairly new to the game, then they might see it as being too powerful, and to be fair, at low levels it does make you a bit stronger than the average foe or character. However, that power will become less drastic as you improve in levels. For experienced players/ tables, these types of builds are par for the course and it might be seen as "weak" to not do something like this. Talk to your GM and see how they feel about it.

[NerdHut]

Question #1
Dual Wielding Barbarian... good idea or horrible idea?
If it's something you want to do, it's possible. It loses potency relatively quickly, though, without a little bit of homebrewing. Many DMs will combine the Two-Weapon Fighting feats into one scaling feat, which makes it a much better option that normal. Ask your DM about his rulings on that.


Question #2
(Assuming it isn't a waste) What weapons should I use?
More and larger dice are obviously your best bet for straight damage. As you level up, and gain enchanted weapons (or design them), the original weapon will become a little less important, and the magic properties start becoming the important part. I personally like hammers and axes.
When you see different crit ranges, don't let them intimidate you too much. The bigger the range, obviously the better, and the higher the multiplier the better. But 19-20 x2 actually works out about equivilent to 20 x3.


Question #3
What about wielding a single large weapon?
This is the most popular choice. If your bottom line is maximum potential damage at all costs, I recommend the Greatsword. It and the Greataxe have the highest max damage, but the greatsword has an average damage of 7, compared to the greataxe's 6.5. Any weapon you wield in two hands adds 1 1/2 your Strength Modifier to damage, as opposed to a one-handed weapon adding your regular STR, and light weapons adding 1/2 STR.


These are good questions for a beginner to ask. Welcome to the addictive world of D&D!

[Curtisw2000]

Thanks for the info guys. It is appreciated.

General consensus seems to be: Probably not worth the Dual Wield but I could if I wanted.

Some specific responses:

Doctor - Half-Orcs are considered medium sized (at least in 3.5) or it would be very easy to go that route.

Giles - I've only read the Player's Handbook, Complete Adventurer, and Complete Warrior... where does it talk about Goliaths (and/or any other good/neutral races)? I absolutely will talk with GM about it; I'm just doing some pre-planning/pre-thinking at this point.

Nerd - Good info. I'm going to take another look at weapons tonight. Just to be clear though (I think you got it, but just in case), I was talking about wielding a large-sized weapon with a medium character (half-orc or human). Is using an oversized weapon really a "popular choice"?

These are good questions for a beginner to ask. Welcome to the addictive world of D&D!
Thanks. I like to think I'm good at understanding the books and only try to ask questions people learn from experience. Growing up in a small town in Wyoming, I thought D&D was something people no longer played... then I got out of there and into the wider world and learned that it is alive and well. I mean I wanted to play but never did. I've played tons of video games based on those rules but started my first game a few months ago and am loving it... TOTALLY addicting. I am frustrated by how infrequently my group meets, so I'm starting a second game with a different group (hence these questions). I read a lot and spend a lot of time thinking about the game. Most nights after a good gaming session I have troubles sleeping b/c I can't shut my mind off about it.

[Curtisw2000]

All (and anyone else) - Thank you so much for info and perspectives. Please feel free to provide any other thoughts you have; feats, equipment, role-playing suggestions, etc... anything. Doctor mentioned Power Attack -> Cleave chain... any other suggestions like that in general for playing a barbarian are appreciated.

[Doctor Despair]

Half-Orc is medium, but Half-Ogre is large :p +2LA, so it's easily paid off, too (look up the rules for level buy off)

A dip into Lion Totem Barbarian wouldn't be bad to get Pounce. If you like Cleave, there's a Knight PrC that grants something called Supreme Cleave that might be of interest. If you like raging, there's feats for that, too.

[ComaVision]

Half-Orc is medium, but Half-Ogre is large :p +2LA, so it's easily paid off, too (look up the rules for level buy off)

A dip into Lion Totem Barbarian wouldn't be bad to get Pounce. If you like Cleave, there's a Knight PrC that grants something called Supreme Cleave that might be of interest. If you like raging, there's feats for that, too.

It's worth noting that there's a Half-Ogre template you can apply that is only +1 LA but also makes you large.

[GilesTheCleric]

Goliaths are in Races of Stone, pg 56. They have a level adjustment, but if your GM plays with LA buyoff (Unearthed Arcana 18), then you can buy off the LA at level 3.

[Pugwampy]

Question #1
Dual Wielding Barbarian... good idea or horrible idea?

NO such thing as a horrible idea in this limitless game . The only cost here is burning feats . You dont need to burn feats to play with great axe or sword and shield style but they can only attack once while you get an extra attack .

Also 2 handed weapons gives a 1.5 Str damage bonus . The damage output from the greataxe is about almost the same as two attacks from one handaxe and battleaxe . That said if you get your hands on two enchanted weapons , your damage will outshine the big enchanted weapon



Question #2
(Assuming it isn't a waste) What weapons should I use?

You have minimum penalties if one weapon is light ...although there is a feat that can take care of that too .
As for slashing and bludeoning mix , well you could have one pair of bashers and one pair of choppers.



Question #3
What about wielding a single large weapon?

Thats my fave weapon for any kind of fighter type . I like dishing out damage .
If you want a Tank Barbarian , take sword and shield .

What is your weapon style preference ? What weapon do you play in computer games ?

[Lyndworm]

Some specific responses:
Doctor - Half-Orcs are considered medium sized (at least in 3.5) or it would be very easy to go that route.

Giles - I've only read the Player's Handbook, Complete Adventurer, and Complete Warrior... where does it talk about Goliaths (and/or any other good/neutral races)? I absolutely will talk with GM about it; I'm just doing some pre-planning/pre-thinking at this point.

Nerd - Good info. I'm going to take another look at weapons tonight. Just to be clear though (I think you got it, but just in case), I was talking about wielding a large-sized weapon with a medium character (half-orc or human). Is using an oversized weapon really a "popular choice"?
You may notice that I am none of these people, but I'll try to help if I can.

Doctor Despair has clarified that he was suggesting that you change your race from Half-Orc to Half-Ogre (which is found in the book Races of Destiny). It has a level adjustment of +2, which means that you count as a character two levels higher than your class levels indicate for determining the rate at which you gain experience points. For example, a Half-Ogre Barbarian 3 counts as a fifth level character, and is expected to be of roughly equal power to other fifth level characters. The trade off here is that they're Large sized with +6 Str and +4 Natural Armor (among other goodies).


GilesTheCleric has already clarified that he's referring to the Goliath race from Races of Stone. It has a level adjustment of +1, but also the Powerful Build racial quality, +4 Str, and +1 Natural Armor (among other goodies). Powerful Build was originally unique to Half-Giants (from Expanded Psionics Handbook), which means that it's in the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/monsters/halfGiant.htm). A quick rundown is that it lets your character wield weapons one size category larger than they normally could, and makes them count as one size category larger for opposed checks (like Intimidate checks and trip attempts).


NerdHut is correct, wielding an oversized weapon is actually pretty popular (personally, I think this is due to its popularity in anime and JRPGs). In addition the the Monkey Grip feat you mentioned, there's also the magic item Strongarm Bracers with a very similar effect (from the Magic Item Compendium), and the aforementioned Powerful Build racial quality.

[flappeercraft]

Thanks for the info guys. It is appreciated.

General consensus seems to be: Probably not worth the Dual Wield but I could if I wanted.

Some specific responses:

Doctor - Half-Orcs are considered medium sized (at least in 3.5) or it would be very easy to go that route.

Giles - I've only read the Player's Handbook, Complete Adventurer, and Complete Warrior... where does it talk about Goliaths (and/or any other good/neutral races)? I absolutely will talk with GM about it; I'm just doing some pre-planning/pre-thinking at this point.

Nerd - Good info. I'm going to take another look at weapons tonight. Just to be clear though (I think you got it, but just in case), I was talking about wielding a large-sized weapon with a medium character (half-orc or human). Is using an oversized weapon really a "popular choice"?


Half-Orcs are medium but he is talking about Half-Ogres
Goliaths are from Races of Stone
Using an Oversized weapon is not exceedingly popular due to the damage increases not being that big and getting a penalty to attack bonus.

My reccomendation is that if your group is ok with it become an Uber Charger with the Frenzied berserker PrC. In any case if custom magic items are allowed then make a custom item of Girallons blessing from Spell Compendium and use your two handed weapon if any as a handed weapon that due to Savage Species Ruling it instead of 1.5 strength does 2.5 strength damage instead.

[Troacctid]

Barbarians don't really need to dual-wield, because they already have access to Whirling Frenzy, and you get diminishing returns on the extra attacks due to the stacking penalties.

[Fouredged Sword]

TWFing is more for rogues and other characters who stack on damage per hit and can afford to deal with low weapon damage and need a flurry of attacks to overcome bad BAB and an inability to focus on strength.

THFing is better from both a damage and a feat use perspective. TWFing allows you to make two attacks with a (1d8)one handed and (1d6)light weapon with STR and .5STR added respectively. This means you are throwing around 1d8+1d6+1.5Str of damage each round for an average of 7+1.5Str damage at a -2 penalty and you need to hit that DC twice. THFing you just deal 2d6+1.5str damage from your large weapon. Power attack allows you to trade a -2 penalty for +4 damage, so at the same attack penalty you are looking at 11+1.5Str damage. This is a level 1 comparison.

TWFing is for a flank based rogue who wants to work with a beefy fighter who can wade past the front line and flank for him. The fighter or barbarian wades in with big single hits and sets up positions for the rogue to take 5ft steps and flank.

[Deadline]

Also 2 handed weapons gives a 1.5 Str damage bonus . The damage output from the greataxe is about almost the same as two attacks from one handaxe and battleaxe . That said if you get your hands on two enchanted weapons , your damage will outshine the big enchanted weapon

This is actually incorrect. Dual wielding suffers from some things that are often not immediately apparent:

1. Penalties to hit (mitigated down to -2/-2 with two-weapon fighting and a light off-hand weapon). So you will hit less often than you will with a Two-handed weapon. If you were to replicate the -2 penalty with Power Attack on a two-handed weapon fighter, you'll have the same hit chance but do more damage than the two weapon wielder.

2. You only apply half of your strength bonus to off-hand attacks, and you can't gain the power attack damage bonus with a light weapon.

3. Your "weapon" is twice as expensive (because you need two of 'em), so it takes much longer to acquire the same kind of performance the two-hander saw several levels ago.

4. DR is actually a problem for you. The Two-hander barely notices because his big hits still pile in plenty of damage past the DR threshold. You, however, will be struggling to land more than a few measly points of damage past DR.

Numerically, the two-weapon fighter isn't really THAT far behind a two-handed barbarian (in scenarios where the above 4 points aren't an issue), so if it's a style you want to try go for it. There are classes that are better suited to two-weapon fighting, but hey, have fun.

The best way to dual wield is with bonus damage on your attacks, like Sneak Attack dice, Skirmish dice, or having a Dragonfire Inspiration Bard in the party to add a bunch of dice to everyone's attacks.

[NerdHut]

Nerd - Good info. I'm going to take another look at weapons tonight. Just to be clear though (I think you got it, but just in case), I was talking about wielding a large-sized weapon with a medium character (half-orc or human). Is using an oversized weapon really a "popular choice"?

Ah! I had misunderstood slightly. I was talking about two-handers, but oversized weapons work just a little differently.

A typical medium-size creature cannot wield a large-size weapon correctly. Using strictly interpretted rules, it's not possible, but like many things, DMs can homebrew what they feel to be appropriate rules. What players can do, though, is take a feat like Monkey Grip (wield weapons one size larger with a -2 penalty to hit [not highly recommended]), pick a race with Powerful Build (Like the Goliaths of Races Of Stone, who can wield large-size weapons without penalty), or use magic (such as the Strongarm Bracers from Magic Item Compendium).

In any case, over-sized weapons are popular, and can be very powerful, particularly in early-game.

[Curtisw2000]

Holy cow guys... thank you so much. So much good information. Looks like I've got a lot more reading to do between now and this weekend. I had never considered any races outside of the Player's Handbook, never heard of LAs (I read a quick blurb on it but will need to look into more details), and a bunch of other things.

Thanks again.

(I know I'm not answering some questions but I have a feeling that some of them are moot with the new information I have.)

[GilesTheCleric]

Holy cow guys... thank you so much. So much good information. Looks like I've got a lot more reading to do between now and this weekend. I had never considered any races outside of the Player's Handbook, never heard of LAs (I read a quick blurb on it but will need to look into more details), and a bunch of other things.

Thanks again.

(I know I'm not answering some questions but I have a feeling that some of them are moot with the new information I have.)

A level adjustment is just a number added in to balance a more powerful race. For example, a level 1 Goliath fighter is comparable to a level 2 human fighter. The Goliath's LA+1 effectively counts as a level. Both of those characters are what's called ECL 2, or effective character level 2.

[Mordaedil]

Make sure you get exotic weapon proficiency (double axe) for the rule of cool.

[Mr Adventurer]

Monkey Grip is a terrible feat - in nearly all cases, you can just Power Attack for the same or better outcome (but you can choose to stop if you want!).

E.g. average 1d12 = 6.5; average 3d6 = 10.5: difference = 4; bonus damage from a -2 Power Attack = 4.

There are ways to get more out of your Power Attack, too. Check out the Leap Attack feat.

[Fouredged Sword]

There is one cool huge weapon build I know of. It is far from optimized, but it is fun to play around level 3-6.

Goliath barbarian 2 / fighter 1. Use LA buyoff at level 3 to get rid of your LA. Take the mountain rage ACF.

Feats
1st level feat- Power attack
3rd level feat- Monkey Grip - huge greatclub for 3d8 damage
fighter 1 feat - power attack

Now you use a greatclub rather than a greatax because you want the party wizard to buff it with mighty wallop, a graet 1min/level buff that boosts your damage to 4d8. At level 5 the wizard gets access to Greater Mighty Wallop, an HOUR/level buff that boosts you to 6d8 damage at level 5 and keeps going up from there.

Far from optimized, but a lot of fun.

[Darrin]

Looks like I've got a lot more reading to do between now and this weekend.

Here's some additional reading: TWF OffHandbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?279079-3-5-The-TWF-OffHandbook).

One of the best ways to TWF is with a two-handed primary weapon (usually a greatsword) and unarmed strike or armor spikes as your offhand weapon. This gives you the best of both worlds: two-handed damage multipliers with your primary weapon and extra attacks with your offhand weapon. However, it's very feat-intensive, so ideally you'll only take 1-2 levels of Barbarian (for Spirit Lion Totem, Whirling Frenzy, and possibly Wolf Totem), and the rest will be Fighter with a little Ranger mixed in.

For example:

Race: Human
1) Barbarian 1. Feat: Power Attack. Human: Improved Unarmed Strike.
2) Ranger 1. Bonus: Track. (Note: You can swap for Trap Expert ACF in Dungeonscape)
3) Ranger 2. Bonus: TWF. Feat: Superior Unarmed Strike.
4) Barbarian 2: Bonus: Improved Trip.
5) Fighter 1. Bonus: Improved Bull Rush.
6) Fighter 2. Feat: Leap Attack. Bonus: Either Shock Trooper or Improved TWF.

A dip into Battle Dancer (from Dragon Compendium volume 1) or going into the Fist of the Forest PrC (Complete Champion) can get you unarmed strike as a monk.

A1: Straight Barbarians need a little help to TWF, usually by dipping other classes for feats. Simplest way to do TWF is with a two-handed weapon and armor spikes. It's not as optimal as a two-handed weapon, because you only get x1.0 your Strength bonus on your primary weapon and x0.5 on your offhand weapon. This means to get the same Strength bonus damage out of TWF as you get out of two-handed, your primary weapon has to hit twice and your offhand has to hit twice in the same round. And that isn't going to happen very often. However, you can fix this somewhat by taking the Power Lunge feat (from Ghostwalk or Sword & Fist): this sets your Strength bonus to x2.0 on a charge, regardless of the handedness of your weapons.

A2: Greatsword and armor spikes works pretty well, and unlike Improved Unarmed Strike doesn't cost you a feat. If you go with armor spikes, upgrade to netcutter spikes (200 GP, Races of the Wild) if funds are available. Bludgeoning/piercing/slashing doesn't come up all that often... there's really only two creature types where that matters: skeletons and zombies. Greatsword already does slashing, so that takes care of zombies. For skeletons, just pack a morningstar as a back-up weapon. Note: morningstar is a one-handed weapon, so you can grip it two-handed and still get two-handed damage.

A3: There are a few situations where Monkey Grip might be worth it, but this is usually when you're wielding an oversized weapon that deals at least 2d8 or 4d6 as the base damage. Unless you're in that situation, avoid Monkey Grip. Basically, you take a -2 oversized weapon penalty for a marginal increase in damage. 1d10 -> 1d12 only increases your average damage by +1.0. 2d6 -> 3d6 increases your average damage by 3.5, but this is out-performed by Power Attacking for -2, which gives you a +4 damage bonus on a two-handed weapon. When you add multipliers like Leap attack, Valorous weapon, Headlong Rush, etc., that -2 penalty can get up to +8 or +12 damage. Going up from 4d6 -> 6d6 increases your average damage by +7.0, and going from 4d8 -> 6d8 increases average damage by +9.0. Going from 2d8 -> 3d8 is sorta borderline... +4.5 average damage, but Power Attack is usually better because you can adjust the penalty/damage according to the situation.

[Pugwampy]

1. Penalties to hit (mitigated down to -2/-2 with two-weapon fighting and a light off-hand weapon). So you will hit less often than you will with a Two-handed weapon.

Its a friggin barbarian . They always land their hits .


2. You only apply half of your strength bonus to off-hand attacks, and you can't gain the power attack damage bonus with a light weapon.

D12 weapon 1.5 vs 1 D8 (1) and 1 D6 (0.5) is same str bonus but higher average weapon damage in favour of two weapon style ...........and what if you burn a feat for a dwarven waraxe ? :smallbiggrin:

Forget monkey grip There is a feat in PHB 2 or possibly Masters of the wild that allows you to play with 2 medium weapons with no extra penalties , Assuming you want to burn another feat .
I probably would not play with power attack feat . <played with it but cannot recall its name ........probably broken .



3. Your "weapon" is twice as expensive (because you need two of 'em), so it takes much longer to acquire the same kind of performance the two-hander saw several levels ago.


Why buy it if you can find a better one in the forest or on a corpse ? :smallsmile:



4. DR is actually a problem for you. The Two-hander barely notices because his big hits still pile in plenty of damage past the DR threshold. You, however, will be struggling to land more than a few measly points of damage past DR.

By that time you should have at least one nice enchanted weapon to play with .


There is no better combat class to experiment with 2 weapons than a Barbarian . That Rage buff already negates the attack penalties . A level 1 fighter dip and you got an extra feat to play with .

2 enchanted weapons , each with d6 elemental damage is some mighty fine damage .
The fact you need to burn feats means it works too well and needed a nerf just to make it the equal of sword and shield or 2 handed weapon .

[Mr Adventurer]

There is one cool huge weapon build I know of. It is far from optimized, but it is fun to play around level 3-6.

Goliath barbarian 2 / fighter 1. Use LA buyoff at level 3 to get rid of your LA. Take the mountain rage ACF.

Feats
1st level feat- Power attack
3rd level feat- Monkey Grip - huge greatclub for 3d8 damage
fighter 1 feat - power attack

Now you use a greatclub rather than a greatax because you want the party wizard to buff it with mighty wallop, a graet 1min/level buff that boosts your damage to 4d8. At level 5 the wizard gets access to Greater Mighty Wallop, an HOUR/level buff that boosts you to 6d8 damage at level 5 and keeps going up from there.

Far from optimized, but a lot of fun.

You misspelled "Minotaur Greathammer".

[WbtE]

The mechanical advice in this thread is very good, but I think it's important to give a few caveats. You should probably check if the DM has any supplements banned or restricted. (Some DMs are funny about some books.) It's also a good idea to touch base with the other players and find out what they're up to. Barbarian is a fun class but if the rest of the party is slickly optimised full casters... you might find your opportunities to shine a bit limited.

Now, you're probably fine and all that checking in with the rest of the group will do is make you come across as conscientious. But that's not so bad, is it? :smallsmile:

[EndocrineBandit]

When I saw this my thought was 'The best of both worlds, TWF and a THW' with a greatsword and armor spikes.. Something else that's totally viable, Going barbarian/swordsage (Tome Of Battle, discuss it with your DM) and going for the lightning maces feat, getting yourself a pair of aptitude kukris. any time you would score a critical threat with the kukris you instead get an extra attack with it. It means you no longer score critical hits, but oooh the hits you will get. I say swordsage because of all of the extra combat options the maneuvers and stances give you. All maneuvers and stances can be used while raging, with the notable exception of diamond mind. But, C'mon. You're a big, angry barbarian. Who has time for concentrating on things past gutting things like fish?


Oh man. You could go with multi-weapon fighting instead, dual wield and armor spikes.

[Lyndworm]

Going barbarian/swordsage (Tome Of Battle, discuss it with your DM) and going for the lightning maces feat, getting yourself a pair of aptitude kukris. any time you would score a critical threat with the kukris you instead get an extra attack with it. It means you no longer score critical hits, but oooh the hits you will get.
Quick correction here: You absolutely still score criticals. Nowhere in the feat does it say that you have to sacrifice one for the other. Lightning Mace is easily the best of the Style feats for this reason (though it might still be the best without it, because most of them are pretty bad).

[Deadline]

Its a friggin barbarian . They always land their hits .

Not always, and certainly not if you start stacking lots of penalties. For a barbarian, the usual decision is "how much do I want to power attack for?" For a Two-Weapon Fighting Barbarian, you don't power attack at all, your damage suffers as a result, and you still have a penalty to hit.


D12 weapon 1.5 vs 1 D8 (1) and 1 D6 (0.5) is same str bonus but higher average weapon damage in favour of two weapon style ...........and what if you burn a feat for a dwarven waraxe ? :smallbiggrin:

Let's do a comparison then. Barbarian 2 with a GreatAxe and power attack vs. Barbarian 2 with a Dwarven Waraxe and Hand Axe, Two-Weapon Fighting and Exotic Proficiency.

Great Axe: Average damage - (D12) 6.5 + 1.5 Str + 4 (-2 Power Attack) = 10.5 + 1.5 Str.

Two Weapons: Average damage - (D10) 5.5 + Str + (D6) 3.5 + .5 Str = 9 + 1.5 Str.

Assuming the same Strength stat, you get more damage out of the Two-handed weapon than you do out of the two weapons (with the exact same chances to hit), and that's assuming that you manage to land both of the two-weapon attacks.


Forget monkey grip There is a feat in PHB 2 or possibly Masters of the wild that allows you to play with 2 medium weapons with no extra penalties , Assuming you want to burn another feat .
I probably would not play with power attack feat . <played with it but cannot recall its name ........probably broken .

Oversize two-weapon fighting does two things:

1. Adds 1 average damage (2 if you use it two wield 2 dwarven waraxes or bastard swords).
2. Makes Power Attacking while TWF almost look ok (but it's still bad compared to THF).


Why buy it if you can find a better one in the forest or on a corpse ? :smallsmile:

If you assume one build gets more wealth than another, then yeah, the build with more money is going to be better. But that's got nothing to do with TWF.


By that time you should have at least one nice enchanted weapon to play with .

Which doesn't guarantee you will punch through DR. DR tends to come in 5/10/15 point increments. The two weapon wielder is basically getting hit by that penalty twice (and were already doing less damage than the THF).


There is no better combat class to experiment with 2 weapons than a Barbarian . That Rage buff already negates the attack penalties . A level 1 fighter dip and you got an extra feat to play with .

Sure, Rage helps to counter the penalties for TWF. But for a THF it improves damage even more through power attack (I get a +2 bonus from my enhanced strength? Well then I power attack for 2 more to get another 4 damage on every swing!).


2 enchanted weapons , each with d6 elemental damage is some mighty fine damage .

It is indeed. It's just less than a two-handed fighter is doing with the same benefits.


The fact you need to burn feats means it works too well and needed a nerf just to make it the equal of sword and shield or 2 handed weapon .

Exactly the opposite really. Even if you got all the TWF feats for free, it would still be inferior to a 2 handed weapon, and better than sword and board (which is arguably the absolute worst fighting style - not counting agile shield fighter which basically turns it into TWF).

Now, just because it's an inferior fighting style when compared to THF, that doesn't mean it isn't viable. And, as has been mentioned, the only place Two-weapon fighting really shines is with bonus damage (like sneak attack dice, or bardic music). It also can find a niche benefit with some of the more devastating enchantments that offer a rider effect whenever you hit (like a save vs an effect or a point of CON damage).

If you want more info on how to Two-weapon fight like a pro, I think Darrin has an Off-handbook in his sig that's really comprehensive.

[atemu1234]

NO such thing as a horrible idea in this limitless game .

Remember, kids, there are no stupid questions, just stupid people.


In all seriousness, you are partially correct. Basically anything can be optimized enough to keep up with the baseline fighter, at the very least, and you might be able to scrape tier three if you really, really want to - but it takes work.

On the other hand, if your idea is a monk dual wielding dead monkeys by the tail while blindfolded and balancing a candle on his forehead, you may want to rethink just a little bit.

[EndocrineBandit]

I was under the impression you traded off. Even better. Get a pair of aptitude keened maiming kukris. When you score a critical hit, You get an extra attack and roll a d4, the result of the roll is your crit mod for the hit. With a crit range of 15-20, that means you have a 1/4 chance of scoring a critical threat, and the opportunity to dish out some major damage. The crits are pretty useful for the tiger claw discipline out of the tome of battle, and there's even a kinda neat tiger claw feat that might not be a bad idea to look into. I think it adds knock back to your tiger claw maneuvers while raging, shifted, or wild shaped. I'll have to double check on that one. Hell, you could even put aptitude on your armor spikes and start snagging weapon specific feats for some interesting shenanigans.

[GilesTheCleric]

On the other hand, if your idea is a monk dual wielding dead monkeys by the tail while blindfolded and balancing a candle on his forehead, you may want to rethink just a little bit.

Candlecaster + Blindfold of True Darkness?

[Red Fel]

I was under the impression you traded off. Even better. Get a pair of aptitude keened maiming kukris. When you score a critical hit, You get an extra attack and roll a d4, the result of the roll is your crit mod for the hit. With a crit range of 15-20, that means you have a 1/4 chance of scoring a critical threat, and the opportunity to dish out some major damage. The crits are pretty useful for the tiger claw discipline out of the tome of battle, and there's even a kinda neat tiger claw feat that might not be a bad idea to look into. I think it adds knock back to your tiger claw maneuvers while raging, shifted, or wild shaped. I'll have to double check on that one. Hell, you could even put aptitude on your armor spikes and start snagging weapon specific feats for some interesting shenanigans.

The problem is that it's not an even trade.

If you want to do big damage with a two-handed weapon, just take a big weapon, like a Greatsword, and Power Attack, and you're basically done. By contrast, racking up the damage with dual-wielded weapons requires substantial feat investment. As the OffHandbook points out, the big damage from wielding two weapons comes from the fact that you can stack bonus modifiers onto more hits. Sneak Attack is the oft-mentioned choice; adding sneak attack onto your hits, and getting extra hits in the bargain, helps you close the gap. But that, too, is expensive. Likewise, crit-fishing is tricky to pull off. It's just expenses on top of expenses.

As others have mentioned, Monkey Grip isn't the best option, for two reasons. First, Strongarm Bracers do it better, and save you a precious feat. Anytime you can spend money and save a feat, do that.

Second, Monkey Grip doesn't exactly work the way some people think it does. Ordinarily, you can use a larger weapon by taking a -2 penalty and treating it as a size category up - so a Medium creature wielding a Large one-handed weapon treats it as a two-handed weapon. Monkey Grip doesn't take away the penalty, it just lets you use the Large one-handed weapon as a one-handed weapon. So in that sense, it would let you wield a Large two-handed weapon, which a Medium creature ordinarily cannot do at all, but still at a -2 penalty. Contrast that with Strongarm Bracers again, which simply treat you as a size category larger - thus removing the -2 penalty entirely.

On the other hand, as people have mentioned, any creature with Powerful Build (such as a Half-Giant or Goliath) has no problem wielding these items by default, no feats or items required.

Lastly, keep in mind that, for a level 1 character, you're basically handicapping yourself. Assuming you have proficiency with that weapon type (so your only penalty is the -2 oversized weapon penalty) and are in a full BAB class, you can make one attack at +1 to hit, before imposing the penalty. So right out of the gate, you get one chance to hit, and suffer a net -1. That's really, really going to hurt you.

Now, yes, the average damage on 3d6 is going to be about 10.5 damage, which will probably kill most things you'll face. But with a base AC of 10, and a -1 to hit, you'll be hitting your target less than half of the time. That's not worth the trouble, frankly.

[Fouredged Sword]

Another thing to consider is Stat requirements. Melee attacks are based on strength. A character with THFing puts their highest roll in str, no question. A TWFer NEEDS 15 dex. That means less strength or constitution to make room for that in your point buy or having to put your second best roll into dex rather than con. A barbarian wants to go con=str>dex>wis>int>cha. If you happen to roll 3 rolls over 15 or have tons of point buy, great. Otherwise you are making a tradeoff that hurts.

[Deadline]

Candlecaster + Blindfold of True Darkness?

Nah, keep yourself as a Monk and just sub the candle out for a Candle of Invocation. Props on the Blindfold though, I think we are well on our way to optimizing this dual ex-simian wielding build. :smalltongue:

[GilesTheCleric]

Nah, keep yourself as a Monk and just sub the candle out for a Candle of Invocation. Props on the Blindfold though, I think we are well on our way to optimizing this dual ex-simian wielding build. :smalltongue:

Maybe we should add sacred fist or something to make the candle worthwhile. And, can't forget ranks in balance. I recently saw a good feat that granted +5 balance as part of its package, but I'm AFK so I can't check right now.