Wildbow's Pact: metaphysics questions of the setting

[JeenLeen]

This is related to Wildbow's web serial Pact. Presumably, there will be spoilers, so if you haven't read it, probably want to avoid this thread.

I've been working off and on on a homebrew setting for this game, but there's a couple things I haven't been clear on from the novel, and I was hoping for y'all's opinion on it.

Questions
What counts as a lie that can make you foresworn? I get that breaking a formal oath causes it automatically (at least if it's clear you broke your oath), but could something like a white lie or sarcasm make you foresworn if someone called you out on it?
From what I can tell, the spirits judge every word you say. If you lie (and they can tell?), you lose some of your power and get bad karma. If you break an oath (including informal promises), you lose all your magical abilities and become foresworn. But I'm clear on the border between those things, and how often someone has to call you foresworn for it to come into effect. (Note Pauz's condemnation of Blake/Rose, but it fell through.)

Is it bad karma to kill Others? It seems killing in general, even against goblins, is frowned upon. At least implicitly, since they don't tend to kill goblins. (I'd assume killing demons, if possible, gives no bad karma.)

Can anyone think of a good justification that folk don't bind a few ghosts or goblins to keep as tools?
I can think of some, including
1) pride (thinking learning those arts is beneath them),
2) lack of resources (most practitioners don't have the books Blake has access to, so 'binding a couple ghosts' would actually be hard to trade for), and
3) trade-off (there's some negative to knowing multiple magical arts, whether difficulty in learning, lack of power from not being focused/thematic, and/or higher risk of magical contagion (that is, becoming more Other)).
BUT none of those seem marked in the canon.

Any thoughts are appreciated.
I figure my system will not follow the canon perfectly (since the novel is rather light on how power and spellcasting works, rules-wise), so feel free to speculate, but please note when you are doing speculation and not noting what the canon states.

[Landis963]

Sarcasm counts as lying, but it only counts as being forsworn when 1) you made a promise that 2) you cannot fulfill, and 3) someone or something points out the failed/betrayed promise to the spirits. Usually, point 3 happens when an action is taken that invalidates a promise made (e.g. someone kills someone that you promised to protect), but if that action is far removed from the promise in question there's a touch of leeway (e.g. you don't know the person you promised to protect is dead yet).

Which is not to say that lying isn't a karma drain (because it absolutely is), but being forsworn is much more so, and therefore there are more hoops to jump through.

[JeenLeen]

Sarcasm counts as lying, but it only counts as being forsworn when 1) you made a promise that 2) you cannot fulfill, and 3) someone or something points out the failed/betrayed promise to the spirits. Usually, point 3 happens when an action is taken that invalidates a promise made (e.g. someone kills someone that you promised to protect), but if that action is far removed from the promise in question there's a touch of leeway (e.g. you don't know the person you promised to protect is dead yet).

Which is not to say that lying isn't a karma drain (because it absolutely is), but being forsworn is much more so, and therefore there are more hoops to jump through.

Also, does (or can) an accidental lie, or something becoming a lie, like saying "You cannot leave here today." lead to being foresworn, if called on it? Duncan said something like that, and he said it drained a lot of his power (maybe even all of it, but he had family resources to draw upon) when Blake called him on it, but he's still a practitioner.
I could also see a parent practitioner foolishly promise to be on time for something for their kid, but wind up a minute or two late. (Though most practitioners would word things to be safe.)

Do you think someone always has to call you out on it, or would some things be obvious enough for the spirits to notice? I'm assuming a "I won't kill you" followed by killing a dude would lead to being foresworn, even if nobody else knew about it. (Although if you kill them indirectly, the spirits might not realize it, per what Laird said about deflecting through a third party.)

[Landis963]

Also, does (or can) an accidental lie, or something becoming a lie, like saying "You cannot leave here today." lead to being foresworn, if called on it? Duncan said something like that, and he said it drained a lot of his power (maybe even all of it, but he had family resources to draw upon) when Blake called him on it, but he's still a practitioner.
I could also see a parent practitioner foolishly promise to be on time for something for their kid, but wind up a minute or two late. (Though most practitioners would word things to be safe.)

Do you think someone always has to call you out on it, or would some things be obvious enough for the spirits to notice? I'm assuming a "I won't kill you" followed by killing a dude would lead to being foresworn, even if nobody else knew about it. (Although if you kill them indirectly, the spirits might not realize it, per what Laird said about deflecting through a third party.)

I think Duncan did in fact become forsworn from that episode, although I think the Behaims had enough karma to throw at the problem to make it go away. (A common feature of many of Blake's opponents, you might notice)

[GreyStormcrow]

Right. Thinking Cap time.
(Warning, spoilers ahead.)

Lying and breaking a vow are two separate, if connected, ideas. You become forsworn by breaking (the literal interpretation of) an oath or an agreement - and the act of lying itself does cause one to become forsworn. For example, Blake accidentally lies while binding June, Rose lies about the ritual, and Mara lies at gunpoint; yet none of these cause them to become forsworn. Duncan wasn't forsworn, as I understand it, (and karma can't fix that problem).
Lying is, of course, still inherently bad, and leads to bad karma and a loss of power. The system is set up to punish deception (well, outright deception). But the less connected you are to the system, the less it can 'punish' you for deceptions. Witch Hunters can lie; Blake 2.0 (maybe) could have lied; the witch of the drains could have lied; etc. Practitioners can't lie (without overt consequences) because of the awakening ritual, and most Others can't lie because of the Seal of Solomon.

[JeenLeen]

It seems like newly-created Others are not bound by the Seal of Solomon, so lying might give bad karma and potentially drain power, but it can't lead to being foresworn. I think Blake 2.0 was expressly noted to be such (at least, he thought he could lie, I think, but just didn't want to risk bad karma.)

But, strangely, motes like Pauz seem to be bound by their oaths. And the goblins Maggie interacts with worry about being foresworn; we don't know if they are ancient or young, but we see that new goblins can and are made (didn't some creepy goblin-blade make new goblins?).

Interestingly, this would (presumably?) mean that most ghosts are not bound by the Seal of Solomon. Not relevant since most are basically emotional echos, but for actual wraiths, if they can lie and not risk being foresworn, that seems... tricky. Same for folk who turn into bogeymen. (Though I guess creatures like... that cannibal they summon... were bound with the Seal when they were made into a summonable being. Seems that way from the flashback chapter with her backstory.)

From y'all's reading, can an Other not bound by the Seal of Solomon be foresworn?

Edit/side note: in the game system I'm working on, I plan on saying that Solomon altered the way reality works, so all Others are inherently bound by the Seal of Solomon. Seems simpler.

[GreyStormcrow]

Some of this is speculation, but...
As I understand it, Others not bound by the Seal can lie, but still become forsworn if they break an oath. And many new Others (say, practitioners gone too far) would already have prohibitions against lying. (The Seal, I think, is basically has an oath that includes, among other things, the command to 'not lie'.)
Lies are looked down upon by the spirits, but from a distance. When you make an oath, you're directly inviting their attention as witnesses (even if you don't use those words).