[PF] Improved Familiar musing

[Azoth]

I randomly got hit with an idea while going over a build. We all know Improved Familiars are strong as scouts/UMD users, but what if we could make them mini casters as well?

This is when I remembered the Familiar Spell Metamagic feat. Granted, we can also get this as a Metamagic Rod or Metamagic Gem. It is a +3 Metamagic effect that let's you give a familiar a spell to hold on to, so that it can cast it at a later time. The Familiar must be able to speak and provide the material component for the spell, so it is only useful for Improved Familiars.

Now, a Familiar can hold up to your Caster Level in spell levels, and no single spell can be more than 1/2 your Caster Level in spell levels (including the +3 adjustment for Familiar Spell)

The reason this peaked my interest was that the build I was looking at was a Mystic Theurge build. The build would have two distinct caster levels and spell pools to use with this. Easily 40 levels worth of spells to load into the Familiar.

The next thought was, are there ways to mitigate the Metamagic adjustments on spells to allow this to flourish?

Sacred Geometry adjust the spell level without changing the slot, but do Metamagic Rods/Gems do the same thing?

If not, one could use Sacred Geometry + Familiar Spell + Metamagic Rod/Gem of Echoing Spell to raise the spell level by 3 and not expand a spell slot. This would allow the MT to give it's familiar 4 7th level spells/day to use as it saw fit without giving up any of its own spellcasting.

So, does the trick work?

[Barstro]

My initial thought is that Mystic Theurge will not allow 40 spell levels, but that comes down to definitions.

How Many Spell Levels

“Your familiar can store a number of spell levels (including this modifier) equal to your caster level,”


(Caster Level) “for most spellcasting characters is equal to her class level in the class she's using to cast the spell”


Mystic Theurge receives “+1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class/+1 level of existing divine spellcasting class”

Assuming a Mystic Theurge was level 5 divine, level 5 arcane, then level 10 MT;

The MT is a level 15 divine and level 15 arcane according to my third quote.

QUESTION; Does the caster really have two separate Caster Levels that can be added together to 30, or does it mean the Familiar can hold a max of 15 divine spell levels, a max of 15 arcane spell levels, with a max of 15 total? (As opposed to a level 3 Cleric / level 6 wizard who could hold a max of 3 divine spell levels, 6 arcane spell levels, and a max of 6 total).

Conclusion; I see nothing RAW that answers the question.


Using a Metamagic Rod.


Metamagic Feat “A familiar spell uses up a spell slot 3 levels higher than the spell's actual level. Your familiar can store a number of spell levels (including this modifier)”


Metamagic Rod “The wielder can cast up to three spells per day that affect his familiar as though using the Familiar Spell feat.”

I think that a rod can be used to cast the spell without using a higher level, but the Familiar still accepts the spell as a higher level (Cast Magic Missile as a L1 spell, but is uses up four spell levels for the Familiar).

I welcome any decent counterargument.

EDIT: My limited understanding of Sacred Geometry leads me to believe that I do not want to understand it. But I'd argue that the effect is the same as the rod; the spell can be cast at a lower level, but the Familiar receives it at +3.

[Azoth]

The 40 levels may have been a bit gratuitous. I am not as familiar with ways to boost you general caster level in Pathfinder as I am 3.5.

Though, let's use your Arcane5/Divine5/MT10 build. You have two distinctly different caster levels. You have an Arcane caster level that is used for all arcane spell effects, and a Divine one used in the same fashion. This would mean that logically when using Familiar Spell it would check each one separately for the maximum your Familiar can hold. If they wanted to preclude the niche use of a familiar they could have simply stated "It can not hold more spell levels than your Caster Level in the class that granted you the Familiar Class Feature."

Sacred Geometry + Familiar Spell is used to apply Familiar Spell to a spell without increasing the spell slot needed. That is its only purpose.

The real lynch pin to the trick is whether or not a Metamagic Rod/Gem of Echoing Spell carries the +3 adjustment or not.

If it does that turns the Metamagic adjustment to +6, and makes the trick useless. If it doesn't, then it is only a +3, and some WBL making the trick useful for MT builds.

[Barstro]

Though, let's use your Arcane5/Divine5/MT10 build. You have two distinctly different caster levels. You have an Arcane caster level that is used for all arcane spell effects, and a Divine one used in the same fashion. This would mean that logically when using Familiar Spell it would check each one separately for the maximum your Familiar can hold. If they wanted to preclude the niche use of a familiar they could have simply stated "It can not hold more spell levels than your Caster Level in the class that granted you the Familiar Class Feature."

If only I had a dollar for every time I thought the authors could have written a couple extra words to clarify things. :smallsmile: While it may have been omitted because the authors didn't want that to be the effect, it's also likely that they figured that result is just assumed to be true. No evidence of intent is not the same as evidence of no intent.

I THINK that there is some rule that says caster level cannot be higher than character level. Assuming that to be the case, then the Familiar cannot hold more than "character level" of spells in total. But, I'm also predisposed to read against any questionable effect that would result in a powerful class becoming even more powerful.

[legomaster00156]

I THINK that there is some rule that says caster level cannot be higher than character level. Assuming that to be the case, then the Familiar cannot hold more than "character level" of spells in total. But, I'm also predisposed to read against any questionable effect that would result in a powerful class becoming even more powerful.
There is no such rule. However, CL is very hard to boost in this game.

[Azoth]

Well, since intent can not be determined, and RAW says that you clearly have two separate Caster Levels...

I am also starting to feel that using the Metamagic Rod/Gem does work. I have re-read the descriptions of the rods/gems a number of times.


Metamagic rods hold the essence of a metamagic feat, allowing the user to apply metamagic effects to spells (but not spell-like abilities ) as they are cast. This does not change the spell slot of the altered spell. All the rods described here are use-activated (but casting spells in a threatened area still draws an attack of opportunity). A caster may only use one metamagic rod on any given spell, but it is permissible to combine a rod with metamagic feats possessed by the rod's wielder. In this case, only the feats possessed by the wielder adjust the spell slot of the spell being cast.

Well "effects" isn't a section of any Metamagic feat description. Guessing this means we need to take the entire sections for "Benefits" and "Level Increase" into account as the effect. The rod then calls out that using the rod doesn't alter the spell slot. This would mean that we ignore the "Level Increase" section. All we are left with is that the "Metamagic Effect" is the portion listed in the "Benefits" section, without the "Level Adjustment" section.

This would mean that using a Metamagic Rod does not change the "Effective Level" of a spell being cast using it.