Party Balance? What's Party Balance?

[Dialkis]

What's the craziest group of PCs you've ever played with/DMed? I'm playing in a 3.5 campaign right now in which the party consists of a Wizard, a Sorceror, a Druid, a Cleric, and a Bard. The kicker? Gnomes. Every last one of 'em. Five spellcasting gnomes looting dungeons together.

[ComaVision]

I've had lots of weird groups.

My first campaign was finished with a spider ghost psion, werebear barbarian, dwarf ranger, and fog giant barbarian.

My last campaign was finished by a tibbit psion, half-dragon cleric, and a dragonborn water orc ubercharger.

The last one-off I ran was a unicorn, arctic dwarf barbarian, kobold swashbuckler, hellbred beguiler, human ghost, and one normal human.

I dream of one day having a somewhat normal group.

[Calthropstu]

I wasn't in this one, but my group talks about it a lot.

They played an adventure where everyone played awakened animals. The wizard was a cat who was a former familiar using levels in wizard himself. He ran a con where he was teaching an apprentice about magic, and pretending to be his familiar. The other characters played a raven barbarian and an owl rogue.

Sounds like a very... odd campaign.

[lylsyly]

In the mini campaign I am running now (in which I banned all core races/classes);

Catfolk (RotW)Mystic Ranger
Uldra (Frostburn) Spellthief
Fire Mephling (PlH) Beguiler/swiftblade
Celadrin (DR 350) Favored Soul
Astral Deva (race and class from Savage Species)

Not all that balanced but they are succeeding and having a ball, so ...

[Yukitsu]

3 necromancers and an awakened duck. Proper party balance is pretty overrated.

[Fouredged Sword]

I actually played a game that the party Psion sandwiched himself into a riverine sword and then got it enchanted into being a spellblade to deflect anything that could damage it. He was wielded by the party's fairly unoptimized fighter.

[legomaster00156]

Well, right now, one of my campaigns (an evil assassin campaign) features a noble-born dhampir slayer, a catfolk oracle who used to be a gang member, and a mutated mantis rogue.

[Asgurgolas]

Campaign I'm DMing now (party level 6). Custom setting, where arcane magic is branded as "evil", and non-humans are branded as "evil" (or not even seen as people at all, "apartheid" would sound nice in comparison).

After reading the setting, the party opted for:

Lesser Aasimar Warlock 6, CG
Lizardfolk Warblade 3 NN
Human Ruby Knight Vindicator (got her 1st level in there last session) LN
Grey Elf Duskblade 1/Elf Wizard 5 NN
Half-elf Ranger 1/scout 5 (swift hunter) NG

They find harder to enter towns than wading dungeons XD

[kuhaica]

Strangest Campaign was where everyone by accident played usless classes. I was playing a farmer, someone was playing a knock off knight who was even worst then the knight class. There was a crappie warlock who never did warlock stuff. And our trusty leader was a Rouge who had only Skills in disguise self and craft Skills. We abandoned the main question and tried to be heroes for a small town. The DM dealt with out shenanigans simply because it was a complete fluke. And he reused the plot for the campaign many games later.

But most out of balance game was where me and one other guy where told we where joining a high optimized level 15 game. I made the greatest of Sorcerers. As I love them. But it was more of a spell sword in all honesty. Optimized to sin to handle most situations. The other guy did Wizard stuff. Pure wizard with all the fun that a level 15 wizard can have. When we joined the game and showed our sheets. The DM was shocked. It was then that we learned that the other players where not as good at optimizing that we thought. So we played a few games before killing ourselves off and remaking characters better suited to the party optimization skill. As when encounters would end in several seconds thanks to wizard or my shenanigans. It wasn't fun for everyone else.

[John Longarrow]

Ran a group consisting of:
Gnome Rogue-1/Warlock+
1/2 minotaur orc barbarian
Human Monk.

The monk didn't become comparable to the barbarian until he got bitten by a were bear.

Monk also acquired an in game nemesis... goblin girl.

Goblin Girl fought him to a stand still for five rounds, including drawing first blood, when he was 6th level and she was a goblin commoner-1. He wasn't able to kill her either, just drop her to negatives (she stabilized) and she has since dedicated her life to beating up Monks (taking levels in Barbarian, fighter, and ranger along with improved and superior unarmed strike).

[jdizzlean]

our group played a short Tiny characters only campaign between the end of an old campaign, and our current one in the same world w/ different characters. I don't recall what everyone else played, but we had 13k gold to blow at creation, anything we wanted to 3rd level w/in a set of guidelines. here's what I did:


Half Fire Elemental Stirge Dragon Disciple (Brass) Monk, lvl 3
Outsider (Fire), Speed: 10 ft, fly 40 ft. (average)
STR (18-6) 12 (+1) (+2 Str, ability boost DD rank 2) 14 (+2)
DEX (12+12) 24 (+7)
CON (16+0) 16 (+3)
INT (18-6) 12 (+1)
WIS (13+2) 15 (+2)
CHA (13-2) 11 (+0)
Languages: Common, Stirge (racial), Draconic
lawful neutral
D12 Hit Die HP’s at lvl 3: 39 (12+10+8=30+3+3+3=39)
Natural Armor Bonus: +1 (half fire) +1 (dragon disciple) +2 size +1 ring
Total AC: 10+5 nat+7 Dex = 22
Saves (Stirge/Drag Disc/Ability): Fort 2+3+3, Ref 6+1+7, Will 1+3+2 (+2 to each from cloak of resistance +2) FORT 10 REF 16 WILL 8
Equipment:
Ring of Protection +1 (+1 ac) 2000 GP
Amulet of Mighty Fists +1 (+1 attack/dmg to all natural weapons) 6000 GP
Cloak of Resistance +2 (+2 to all saving throws) 4000 GP
Immune to Disease & Fire Effects, Darkvision 60 ft., low-light vision, Line of Fire Breath weapon, 2d8 1/day, +1 lvl 1 bonus spell (DD), +1 lvl 2 bonus spell (DD),
Skills bonus(Race – Stirge): Hide +14, Listen +4, Spot +4
Initiative: +4 (size) +7 (Dex) = 11
Base Attack: +1 (Stirge) +2 (DD) +1 (Amulet) Touch attack +7 (Stirge) +4/+11
Special Attacks: Attach, blood drain 1d4 con ability dmg
Feats: Skill Focus (Knowledge Arcana +3), Weapon Finesse (natural weapons use DEX instead of STR on attack rolls)
Skills- Ranks+(ability mod) : (12 at lvl 1 + 3/lvl = 18)
Hide 14 (+7), Notice 8(+2) (spot +Listen), Knowledge Arcana 5+3(+1), Concentration 5(+3), Escape Artist 3(+7), Search 4(+1), Diplomacy 1(+0) Grapple 12 (+7)

If Int or Wis is 8+, can use the following abilities once per day.
HD
1-2 Burning Hands 1d4/lvl fire damage (max 5d4) 3-4 Produce Flame 1d6+1/lvl touch attack/ranged touch 1 min/lvl 5-6 Flaming Sphere 2d6 1 round/lvl 7-8 Wall of Fire
9-10 Fire Shield 11-12 Fire Seeds 13-14 Firestorm 15-16 Incendiary Cloud
17-18 Elemental Swarm 19+ Plane Shift

Attach (Ex): If a stirge hits with a touch attack, it uses its eight pincers to latch onto the opponent’s body. An attached stirge is effectively grappling its prey. The stirge loses its Dexterity bonus to AC and has an AC of 12, but holds on with great tenacity. Stirges have a +12 racial bonus on grapple checks (already figured into the Base Attack/Grapple entry above).
An attached stirge can be struck with a weapon or grappled itself. To remove an attached stirge through grappling, the opponent must achieve a pin against the stirge.

Blood Drain (Ex): A stirge drains blood, dealing 1d4 points of Constitution damage in any round when it begins its turn attached to a victim. Once it has dealt 4 points of Constitution damage, it detaches and flies off to digest the meal. If its victim dies before the stirge’s appetite has been sated, the stirge detaches and seeks a new target.
Bonus spells: lvl 1 evocation (Burning hands):
Shocking Grasp – touch delivers 1d6/lvl electricity damage
lvl 1 druid (Produce Flame):
Summon Nature’s Ally I – 1 rd/lvl; Dire rat, eagle, monkey, octopus, owl, porpoise, snake, wolf
Remaining Gold = 1,000



NOTES:
http://www.mithrilcircle.com/Chells/RPG/DD_Guides/DnD3.5Index-Templates.pdf
http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Stirge
Size/Type: Tiny Magical Beast
Hit Dice: 1d10 (5 hp)
Initiative: +4
Speed: 10 ft (2 squares), fly 40 ft. (average)
Armor Class: +2 size
Base Attack/Grapple: +1/–11 (+1 when attached)
Attack: Touch +7 melee (attach)
Full Attack: Touch +7 melee (attach)
Space/Reach: 2-1/2 ft./0 ft.
Special Attacks: Attach, blood drain 1d4 con ability dmg
Attach (Ex): If a stirge hits with a touch attack, it uses its eight pincers to latch onto the opponent’s body. An attached stirge is effectively grappling its prey. The stirge loses its Dexterity bonus to AC and has an AC of 12, but holds on with great tenacity. Stirges have a +12 racial bonus on grapple checks (already figured into the Base Attack/Grapple entry above).

An attached stirge can be struck with a weapon or grappled itself. To remove an attached stirge through grappling, the opponent must achieve a pin against the stirge.

Blood Drain (Ex): A stirge drains blood, dealing 1d4 points of Constitution damage in any round when it begins its turn attached to a victim. Once it has dealt 4 points of Constitution damage, it detaches and flies off to digest the meal. If its victim dies before the stirge’s appetite has been sated, the stirge detaches and seeks a new target.



=====================
stat rolls: 13,12,16,13,18,18
1. Replace spot and listen skills with notice. If a feat gives you a bonus to both skills add them together. If a species trait gives a bonus to those skills it only counts once.


Bonus spells: lvl 1 evocation (Burning hands):
Shocking Grasp – touch delivers 1d6/lvl electricity damage
lvl 1 druid (Produce Flame):
Summon Nature’s Ally I – 1 rd/lvl; Dire rat, eagle, monkey, octopus, owl, porpoise, snake, wolf

[Uncle Pine]

From the last campaign I DMed, at some point the party had a human Wizard, a human Swift Hunter, a human Crusader, a dwarven Spellthief and a Colossal kobold Totemist.

In a one-shot turned two-shot, everyone in the party had the miniature template from Advanced Bestiary slapped on them (therefore they were all TIny), except for one of them who was playing an awakened badger Monk/Drunken Master with a +1 flaming necklace of natural weapon. They were fighting normal-sized lizardmen in a swamp.

[WbtE]

Last campaign might not be the weirdest, but it was certainly odd. Four Skinstealers (horrible faeries, the name is accurate): an Oracle, an Arcanist, an Arcane Archer, and a Dragon Disciple. (The Oracle was utterly over-powered, thanks to using the Advanced Class Guide without errata.)

[Dialkis]

Strangest Campaign was where everyone by accident played usless classes. I was playing a farmer, someone was playing a knock off knight who was even worst then the knight class. There was a crappie warlock who never did warlock stuff. And our trusty leader was a Rouge who had only Skills in disguise self and craft Skills. We abandoned the main question and tried to be heroes for a small town. The DM dealt with out shenanigans simply because it was a complete fluke. And he reused the plot for the campaign many games later.

But most out of balance game was where me and one other guy where told we where joining a high optimized level 15 game. I made the greatest of Sorcerers. As I love them. But it was more of a spell sword in all honesty. Optimized to sin to handle most situations. The other guy did Wizard stuff. Pure wizard with all the fun that a level 15 wizard can have. When we joined the game and showed our sheets. The DM was shocked. It was then that we learned that the other players where not as good at optimizing that we thought. So we played a few games before killing ourselves off and remaking characters better suited to the party optimization skill. As when encounters would end in several seconds thanks to wizard or my shenanigans. It wasn't fun for everyone else.

That sounds familiar. A buddy of mine is DMing a 4th edition campaign in which we're all max level (lvl 30 in 4e). The party consists of a skeleton barbarian, a shardmind wizard, and me, a mimic rogue. Yes, a mimic. I have a +64 to bluff and an epic-level power that lets me force the DM to roll a 1 on any check of my choice once per day. In other words, due to some creative skill point distribution and a tiny bit of DM fiat, I can essentially lie so well I can alter the very fabric of reality. We were doing some naval combat the other day (Pirate campaign) and it ended up being the three of us on our boat versus fifteen enemy ships that were all more powerful than ours. One epic-level Bluff check and a crit-failed Will save by the universe itself, and the entire enemy fleet spontaneously imploded in on itself. My fellow party members were not amused.

[manyslayer]

3 necromancers and an awakened duck.
This sounds like the start to a bad joke.


In 2nd edition had a very religious group in a home-brew setting:
2 clerics of the god of warriors (one elf one dwarf)
a paladin dedicated to the god of warriors (half-dragon from Council of Wyrms rules)
a druid/wizard multi-class
a cleric of Mask (the party's thief)
and a wizard (only one with no religious component)

The last group I ran in 3.5 was heavily Charisma oriented:
battledancer/unarmed swordsage
bard
warmage
lowest charisma was the bard at 16

The party was a bit weird for a one-shot a friend ran but my wife's character took the cake.
tressym (flying cat magical beast) dragonfire adept with the multi-headed template (double the breath weapons double the fun)

[Yukitsu]

This sounds like the start to a bad joke.


"A bad joke" actually defines my group pretty well.

[SirBellias]

Three Drow and a Svirfneblin. All in the neutral to good range.

[KillingAScarab]

The party was a bit weird for a one-shot a friend ran but my wife's character took the cake.
tressym (flying cat magical beast) dragonfire adept with the multi-headed template (double the breath weapons double the fun)Meanwhile, M.C. Bat Commander was very happy, and he didn't know why.

[EndocrineBandit]

'Meanwhile, M.C. Bat Commander was very happy, and he didn't know why.'


This. This makes me unbelievably happy inside. Probably far more than it should.


For the same reason I can't help but giggle whenever I summon birds using SNA and I scream 'I SUMMON THE DUUUUUUDE!'

[Jay R]

I came to a 2e game with a Thief. The other PCs turned out to be Fighter, Ranger, and Paladin.

[Not being a complete idiot, I immediately switched my character to an elvish Thief/Wizard, just to have some magic in the party.]

------------------

Decades ago, I wanted to play an original D&D game with all bards (from the Bard class in The Strategic Review). Once we got to 1,000 xps, where an ordinary party was still all first level, we'd all be second level, with 2 first followers each, well-balanced between Bard, Druid, Fighter, Druid, and Magic-User.

[ZamielVanWeber]

My current DM's campaign has:
A dragonborn draconic lesser ice paragenasi evangelist of Io
An anthropomorphic ape kundala
A snow elf swashbuckler/archivist/prestige ranger
A homebrew planetouched elan wilder/warlock/homebrew bridging class
And a half-orc barbarian/champion of Gwynharwyf (he was originally pure barbarian but was allowed to retrain and respec).

I just love the random blandness at the end there. We may have a JPM joining us soon, but I know nothing about them.

[Red Fel]

our group played a short Tiny characters only campaign between the end of an old campaign, and our current one in the same world w/ different characters.

I remember a similar one-shot I once played. It was all Small races, and all of us (except for one player) designed absurd characters. There was a Kobold Barbarian with a chihuahua's mentality of size, a Gnome Cleric of a nonexistent deity (we could never tell if he didn't believe in the deity or genuinely believed in it, but we knew it didn't exist), and my character, a Blue (Goblin) Psion with personal space issues. We also had a Halfling Monk - that's the player who clearly did not get the memo that this was a silly one-shot.

It was glorious. The Cleric preached endlessly about this miraculous entity whose defining traits varied based on what would get us paid more / not killed at that moment. The Barbarian consistently desired the opportunity to smash things, despite being a fraction of their size. And the Blue constantly changed his name, even in the middle of a conversation, because he knew they knew.

Also, OP's party sounds like The Invincible Legion of Unconquerable Vanquishing Gnomes (http://wowwiki.wikia.com/wiki/The_Invincible_Legion_of_Unconquerable_Vanquishing _Gnomes,_local_237). Just sayin'.

[Matrota]

Oh boy is this a fun thread. In my games we tend to forgo optimization and just play fun, crazy, and interesting things.

In one campaign I'm participating in, I play a frost elf spellsword/icelord (DM permitted spellsword apprentice from the start so I didn't go through fighter/wizard levels, and icelord is a custom class heavily based off of stormlord, just, well, icy). My party members are a tibbit assassin, a sorcerer succubus, and a tauric rogue who is half human half monstrous serpent. Apparently the tauric player is soon replacing his rogue with a half halfling half snow elf (snowling?) healer. We also have a water genasi witch/druid npc with us.

In a different pirate themed campaign, I play an ash elf rogue with the dark template. We also have a snowling(?) fighter, a human buccaneer, an anthropomorphic weasel rogue, and a cursed catfolk bard who is small sized, aptly titled Puss in Boots.

And in the campaign I DM, the party consists of a halfling bard, a halfling rogue/cleric who has achieved godhood, a godless greater vampire cleric, a ranger/lich elf, an orc fighter, a nimblewright, a kobold bard, and a thri-kreen bone creature fighter.

[JW86]

Once played in a party consisting of:

Level 23 Orc Barbarian who fused with a Githzerai Spell-to-Power Erudite/Warblade with divine ranks (The Erudite tried to 'Fusion' the Barbarian in his sleep, but didn't know that the Barbarian was a Divine Rank 1 God of Magic so that 'fusion' thing went in reverse'). He could also Shapechange at will, and he could become 1600ft tall and create 32 copies of himself, with that epic feat which causes anybody who sees him to become terrified.

Divine Rank 15 Epic Druid ally who had befriended and lead an entire Plane of Fey, he was never seen anywhere without a few thousand fey surrounding and protecting him.

A Level 25 Dwarf Cleric/Hammer of Moradin also with divine ranks.

A human Bard/Sorcerer/Dragonsong Lyricist leading the army of dragons using multiple orbs of Dragonkind.

And a Minotaur Monk...

Party balance was not even remotely a thing.

[Metahuman1]

From the last campaign I DMed, at some point the party had a human Wizard, a human Swift Hunter, a human Crusader, a dwarven Spellthief and a Colossal kobold Totemist.

In a one-shot turned two-shot, everyone in the party had the miniature template from Advanced Bestiary slapped on them (therefore they were all TIny), except for one of them who was playing an awakened badger Monk/Drunken Master with a +1 flaming necklace of natural weapon. They were fighting normal-sized lizardmen in a swamp.



1: I am legitimately very curious to know, mechanically, how he got the Kobold to size category Colossal.


2: Ya know, one of these days, I think it would be fun to do 1 of 2 things (or maybe both but not at the same time one would preclude the other.

A: A Size Category Fine character in a normal size ranged party whom, for potential humors banter value, are all of the opposite gender.

and/or

B: A party of size category fine characters going around dealing with an otherwise normal D&D setting.

It just sounds like a goofy game idea that could be fun if I could ever lock in a way to get the mechanics on board and find a party and DM on board with it all.

[Uncle Pine]

1: I am legitimately very curious to know, mechanically, how he got the Kobold to size category Colossal.
As per ELH (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/dragonAdvanced.htm), Dragonwrought Kobolds are dragons in the ordinary group. Note that this applies whether or not they are considered True Dragons or not, so let's not start that debate.



2: Ya know, one of these days, I think it would be fun to do 1 of 2 things (or maybe both but not at the same time one would preclude the other.

A: A Size Category Fine character in a normal size ranged party whom, for potential humors banter value, are all of the opposite gender.

and/or

B: A party of size category fine characters going around dealing with an otherwise normal D&D setting.

It just sounds like a goofy game idea that could be fun if I could ever lock in a way to get the mechanics on board and find a party and DM on board with it all.
2A sounds extremely uncomfortable in my average all-male d&d group, but YMMV. :smalltongue:
2B is partially what that one-shot was about. Granted, except for the awakened badger everyone in the PCs' village was Tiny as well, but the rest of the world didn't. This led to interesting moments when they had to fight against giant crocodiles and (among others) blackscale lizardfolks.

[Morphic tide]

Human Brawler, no archetypes.
Orc Warpriest, no archetypes.
Half-Elf Ranger, no archetypes.
Human Sorcerer, Undead bloodline, no archetypes.

We had a gish-in-a-can for a healer, constantly ate Burning Hands from intentional friendly fire, the Brawler was working towards a Trip/Charger/Intimidate(ish?) build(had a Sickle from character creation, put Maneuver Training into trip, got Pummeling Style and Power Attack and Combat Expertise, had Dazzling Display and maxed out Intimidate ranks. Not sure what they were going to do with that, given that they had 7 Charisma AND 7 Intelligence...) and the Ranger... was TWF focused... The best non-caster ranged option we had was the +1 Cold Iron Dagger of Returning that the Brawler had(helpful against a group of Strength damaging incorporeal undead we ran into, which could have doomed the party given that there was only one person who wasn't melee focused)

Had the campaign gone on long enough, the Brawler would have gone proper Gish with either Arcanist or Magus(or Scrollmaster Wizard for lols) and the Sorcerer would have gone Necromancer with just spell choices. The Warpriest would likely have grabbed Cleric or Druid levels to get proper healing access without compromising melee power and the Ranger... would probably just stay a Ranger all the way through.

[Captain Morgan]

I find a balanced party only matters if you face balanced challenges, and even then you can often find a way to change the rules of engagement to favor your strengths. I've played entirely high stealth, high Caster parties. When we couldn't sneak past encounters, we would wreck them via ambush and clever spells in the surprise round. And when we couldn't do that, we often had the charisma to talk our way out of conflict or even get enemies to switch sides.

Or you could go the other way and have an all barbarian, fighter, and paladin party that brute forces their way through everything and out lasts the adventuring day by a mile. Provided the DM isn't throwing social challenges with CR inappropriately powerful NPCs, it should work too.

Obviously that stuff depends on having a permissive dm who will cater to your style. But often this can be more fun. Rather than players rotating through who gets to play the scouting bit or the face bit, everyone gets to share the spotlight.

[Flickerdart]

I find a balanced party only matters if you face balanced challenges, and even then you can often find a way to change the rules of engagement to favor your strengths. I've played entirely high stealth, high Caster parties. When we couldn't sneak past encounters, we would wreck them via ambush and clever spells in the surprise round. And when we couldn't do that, we often had the charisma to talk our way out of conflict or even get enemies to switch sides.

Or you could go the other way and have an all barbarian, fighter, and paladin party that brute forces their way through everything and out lasts the adventuring day by a mile. Provided the DM isn't throwing social challenges with CR inappropriately powerful NPCs, it should work too.

Obviously that stuff depends on having a permissive dm who will cater to your style. But often this can be more fun. Rather than players rotating through who gets to play the scouting bit or the face bit, everyone gets to share the spotlight.
Such a party is even more sensitive to balance problems than a diverse party - your all-melee combo isn't going to work out so well if it's made up of a Supermount paladin, Ubercharger barbarian, and sword & board fighter.

[AvatarVecna]

My first group ever was me, my brother, and my dad; dad DM'd with a DMPC Druid to supplement the awesomeness that was my brother's mounted combat focused paladin and my untouchable Monk. The two of us ended up migrating our characters to a school club game when that club was finally allowed, but that original party...we were unstoppable!

Of course, much later I realized we were unstoppable for complete separate reasons than I had thought were the case at the time... :smalltongue:

[Captain Morgan]

Such a party is even more sensitive to balance problems than a diverse party - your all-melee combo isn't going to work out so well if it's made up of a Supermount paladin, Ubercharger barbarian, and sword & board fighter.

True, it assumes equal optimization between members, but if you've got an optimization disparity that high it will probably be worse if you have a high level Cleric and Wizard solving every problem with spells and leaving their Rogue and Fighter useless outside of combat, and lacking there too without the casters helping. (If we are talking low levels optimization has a limited impact anyway since you have less resources to spend on building.)

At least with a martial vs martial disparity it can be fixed with a rebuild. If you know what you're doing you can make a great fighter out of the Weapon and Armor Master's handbooks. Even if one martials hits especially harder than you, there's lots of great ways a martial can provide solid support combos. Greater trip, reach and combat reflexes, body guard shenanigans, etc. If you've got a caster who has optimized save or dies, you probably aren't going to even support that as a fighter beyond being a meat shield. And even that becomes harder when flight, teleportation, and enemy castings gets thrown around.

[Flickerdart]

if you've got an optimization disparity that high it will probably be worse if you have a high level Cleric and Wizard solving every problem with spells

This is not true for two reasons:


Apples and oranges: Casting a spell is not directly comparable to dealing damage, but it's very easy to compare two damage-dealing characters. It's often hard for novice players to realize that the casters are winning the battles!
GOD wizard: Casters don't need to optimize for direct problem-solving with beatsticks around; they can switch to buffs and play in a team-friendly way. The ubercharger can't.

[Captain Morgan]

This is not true for two reasons:


Apples and oranges: Casting a spell is not directly comparable to dealing damage, but it's very easy to compare two damage-dealing characters. It's often hard for novice players to realize that the casters are winning the battles!

Even assuming the caster isn't an optimized blaster that actually out-damages the martial, even a novice player can feel invalidated by the right caster. See: caster wins initiative and plane shifts enemy into deadly plane of choice, among other options. A caster can be built so that damage never has to occur. An uber charger is at least only hitting one enemy a round, meaning there will often be targets leftover for others to take out. A caster has options beginning with color spray at level 1 that can translate to no one else winning.


GOD wizard: Casters don't need to optimize for direct problem-solving with beatsticks around; they can switch to buffs and play in a team-friendly way. The ubercharger can't.

Assuming you are looking at a wizard with those spells in his book, or just a cleric, sure. If you're a spontaneous caster, you don't get that option. And assuming the wizard didn't allot all his feats into spell focus and spell penetration because that's how they wanted to play.

The point I'm trying to illustrate is that when you start comparing specific builds in favor of class variety(uber charger vs poorly made sword and board fighter) it's only fair to compare specific builds that go against it. (Save or Die sorcerer vs almost any martial.) The uber charger could have rolled up a grapple build just like the save or die wizard could have made a GOD, after all. The barbarian may have less flexibility sans rebuilding to change their play style, but if the goal becomes "don't over shadow the party" there are still options. Have your barbarian only rage in boss battles or other scenarios where he NEEDS to, or pick up savage dirty trick next level to blind enemies and let your allies finish them.

EDIT: And this logic still doesn't answer all the scenarios where the martial can't participate at all. Ever seen a group of level 10 casters put their heads together to figure out how to infiltrate a castle and assassinate the big bad while the martials twiddle there thumbs and wait for initiative to be rolled?

[Kelb_Panthera]

@Captain Morgan

An ubercharger doesn't -necessarily- have to focus-fire on one enemy if he's going whole-hog. Mix in bloodstorm blade and only the first attack in his full attack has to be on the guy he rushed at (who may or may not be paste after that or the next attack anyway.)

It's still not as good as the blasting options of a mailman but it's a thing.

[Captain Morgan]

@Captain Morgan

An ubercharger doesn't -necessarily- have to focus-fire on one enemy if he's going whole-hog. Mix in bloodstorm blade and only the first attack in his full attack has to be on the guy he rushed at (who may or may not be paste after that or the next attack anyway.)

It's still not as good as the blasting options of a mailman but it's a thing.

Eh, that's fair. (I only played pathfinder, not 3.5.) I don't think that really takes that much away from my point though. Which is that party invalidating munchins can be a class agnostic phenomenon. Heck, with enough optimization disparity between party members, a martial can invalidate a poorly built Caster.

A party of roughly equal optimization efforts playing different classes (cleric/wizard/fighter/rogue) can easily have one character outshine another. Who outshines who may depend on character level and the optimization skill. A level 1 fighter with a two handed weapon will seem pretty great. A poorly made rogue could outshine a poorly made wizard because spells take more thought to apply than sneak attack. At high levels and high optimization the Rogue and fighter will struggle to have anything close to the carter's narrative power.

By comparison, an all cleric party, and all rogue party, or an all barbarian party run will probably be well balanced against each other at all levels assuming equal optimization between players. Their big failing may be not having answers to certain challenges. But if I'm dming an all barbarian party I'm probably not going to use challenges that require spell casting, because I know my players just want to wreck some faces.

[vasilidor]

In a current pathfinder game I am a part of everyone is a different race, as determined by a pair of %rolls. we have had thus far a sentient octopus cleric sporting 4 crossbows, a drake, a daemon, a giant amoeba (sentient again), a Brownie(?), a lizard thing, a giant leech, whatever my character is (I honestly never learned the name of my characters race, beyond the fact that it is simultaneously part infernal and celestial at the same time). everytime a character dies we use an artifact to reincarnate them into something else. the game has become less about class abilities and more about how to creatively abuse whatever insane resource we can get our hands on.

[Aetis]

All warforged fighters. Playing in the post-apocalyptic world where machines, mutants, and human survivors are trying to stay alive.

Think terminator meets fallout.

[Metahuman1]

As per ELH (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/dragonAdvanced.htm), Dragonwrought Kobolds are dragons in the ordinary group. Note that this applies whether or not they are considered True Dragons or not, so let's not start that debate.



2A sounds extremely uncomfortable in my average all-male d&d group, but YMMV. :smalltongue:
2B is partially what that one-shot was about. Granted, except for the awakened badger everyone in the PCs' village was Tiny as well, but the rest of the world didn't. This led to interesting moments when they had to fight against giant crocodiles and (among others) blackscale lizardfolks.

Interesting. So by advancing age category's they can also advance size category's then, if I'm understanding correctly?


2A: It would likely have to be Play by Post to get that little buffer between you and the player and thus more focus on the character.

2B: Pretty much, except going about a step further. It's the difference between most of Toy Story and something more like the borrowers.

[Uncle Pine]

Interesting. So by advancing age category's they can also advance size category's then, if I'm understanding correctly?
Short answer: yes.
Long answer: since kobolds are Small creatures, the same goes for wyrmling kobolds. Therefore, dragonwrought kobolds are dragons that are Small as wyrmling and they obviously never reach Colossal size by the time they age to great wyrms. Thus, dragonwrought kobolds are in the ordinary group. This means that as soon as a dragonwrought kobold reaches 121 years, every additional HD it gains (in most cases a class level) must follow the rules in the ELH. This can happen at 1st level (if you start playing as a venerable dragonwrought kobold) or at any point during the character's life. If X is the level at which the dragonwrought kobold reached the great wyrm stage, you'll gain the following benefits at the listed levels:

X+1: your DR increases to 15/epic.*
Every level: +1 natural armor.*
X+3: Colossal size.
X+3: your fly speed increases by 50 feet and its maneuverability becomes clumsy.*
X+3, X+6, X+9, etc.: +1 "virtual age category".
X+3, X+6, X+9, etc.: if your breath weapon deals damage, +2 dice of damage.*
X+3, X+6, X+9, etc.: +2 SR.*
X+3, X+6, X+9, etc.: +2 Str, +2 Con.
X+3, X+6, X+9, etc.: +2 CL.*
X+6, X+12, X+18, etc.: +2 Int, +2 Wis, +2 Cha.
X+12: Colossal+ size.
X+12: your fly speed increases by another 50 feet.*
For every 3 caster level above 20th: Improved Spell Capacity.
*From my understanding, you do not get these bonuses at the listed level unless you already have a base DR, fly speed, SR, etc. (the exception being natural armor, as the table at MM 298 shows that not having a natural armor bonus is equivalent to having a +0 bonus). This because RAW specifies that your <one of those attributes> "increases" by/to <value>, as opposed to "you gain DR 15/epic".
It might seem implausible that I follow this interpretation to "balance" dragonwrought kobolds, but you're free to prove me wrong (maybe in another thread or by pm, as to not further derail this one).

EDIT: 2B: Interestingly enough, my one-shot was inspired by Studio Ghibli's Arrietty, which is inspired by the Borrowers. However, I had no idea the latter existed and the adventure definitely took a different turn from the original source.

[Dialkis]

Three Drow and a Svirfneblin. All in the neutral to good range.


I was actually a part of one of those parties. Three drow and a svirfneblin, all with 2-syllable names beginning with W. We had Wilder the Drow Ranger, Wallen the Drow Wizard, Wendel the Drow Rogue, and Wumbo, the Svirfneblin Warlock. Our DM hated us so much...

[AsteriskAmp]

The DM was pathologically unable to say no, we milked it for two complete campaigns of insanity.

First party was a Druid with access to literally every official book and Dragon Magazine, the Fleshraker with venomfire was the least insane thing about it, Shooting Star Archer plus Girallon Blessing, the broken version, Ubercharger, Dragonfire inspiration bard, Dweomerkeeper cleric of Mystra with Extraordinary spell aim, Streamers were cast and did their work with the RAW demented interpretation, DM allowed it. We started the campaign by winning an EL15 encounter at level 6 without losses, the XP we were supposed to be awarded wasn't even on the table, DM allowed us to interpolate. By the end of the campaign which was a horror campaign, the monster were more scared of us than we were of them, the druid summons would outnumber and after buffing from the dweomerkeeper outpower the encounters. Final boss would have been, given near infinite time and the party literally not doing anything after the first round, still unable to touch the party , Antilife Shell and Antimagic Field with extraordinary aim on druid and cleric while charger liquified the boss after a single Wall of Stone fixed the uneven terrain that the DM tried to use to stop final boss from dying in a round.

Second campaign we played Malconvoker, Transmuter, Druid, and Cleric borderline TO was used with DM blessing. We would gentrify the dungeons. After clearing them we would furnish them and convert them into pseudo bases for our maritime trade operation seeing as capitalism was more fun than playing through the published adventure which was close to trivial at the power point. Final boss was allowed to die because even after the DM modified him to be a challenge, if you are surrounded by 26 flying tentacle monsters each with 3 attacks per round, eventually SOMETHING will hit and time is finite so no point in rolling, we'd just take the average and the boss just kinda got eaten by the summons. The real challenge was balancing our budgets and figuring out how to expand our maritime trade operation that was partially run on not-slave-labour because at one point we blocked a dungeon exits and became the only way for its inhabitants to subsist so we'd just demand labour in exchange for not dying.

[Stealth Marmot]

I've played in games where I can't exactly tell if the party was entirely unbalanced because I can't truly recall what the party makeup was at any given time. Players swapped characters and I cant recall when and where they switched, and often had multiple characters at once.

Pretty sure at one time we had a half elf druid and my character was a Human rogue/wizard, but it got a little wacky when we had a custom race character where the custom race had a constant 30 foot antimagic field (just roll with it), that same player was playing a wereape, and one player was playing I SWEAR TO THOR, A Giant Eagle Monk.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

I've posted about this group of mine before, but talking about them never gets old. :smallwink: For the first campaign I ran for my college gaming group, everyone wanted to play templated monstrosities since they'd generally been stuck with core-only restrictions in their groups back home and wanted to push the envelope a bit. I had two parties of five running concurrently in the same world, and everyone had a free +6 LA worth of templates thanks to abusing Incarnate Construct and various contruct templates, so they got pretty ridiculous.

Party the First

The Shadow. If there's an elemental template for it, he had it, plus paraelemental-ish ones like dustform. We nicknamed him the Shadow because he ended up with ridiculous Dex and could be really small and sneaky, so in-game the party didn't even know he was there half the time and thought that his familiar was the real character. Combat modus operandi? Using the smoke-elemental creature's "go into your lungs and kill you from the inside" abilities with his humongous claw damage.
The Achilles. He had wendigo, half-brass-golem, half-troll, and a few other templates that granted more immunities and resistances. It wasn't quite Emerald Legion-level invulnerability, but it was close. We called him Achilles because he had exactly one weakness that could be exploited occasionally without obvious DM fiat: a graymantle spell to suppress regeneration, made into a (Su) ability to bypass spell immunity (luckily one of the recurring villains was a dweomerkeeper, huh?). That didn't work often, but it struck fear into his heart when it did. Also, he wanted to ascend to become the God of Weasels; long story.
The Thrower. Tauric dire-something goliath with other brute-type templates on top. It was a basic hulking hurler build (the player was a fan of "Hulk smash!" barbarians) except that he counted as a Colossal quadruped with something like 60 Str and had levels in Bloodstorm Blade, so his weapon of choice was ricocheting houses.
The Zombie Apocalypse. This one was relatively straightforward: Greater Spawn of Kyuss and Half-Illithid, plus several applications of Evolved Undead. His mission was to voidmind-ify and spawn-of Kyuss-ify everything he came into contact with, and he had two spawnified elven children follow him around everywhere. Did I mention that this was an all-evil party?
The Arm-y. Phrenic Insectile Warforged with a thing for grafts. He'd cut the arms off every creature they killed and graft them onto himself, using generous interpretations of Multiweapon Fighting and Multiattack to get attacks with all of them.

Party the Second
The Host. A half-Daelkyr who went crazy with symbionts and the symbiotic creature template and then went into spellwarp sniper as a focused specialist evoker. He had fireball rays, lightning bolt rays, symbiont rays, beholder eye rays, and more.
The Pyro. Every fire-related template he could fit, he used. Half-red dragon, half-fire elemental, the works. He went focused specialist evoker/warlock/hellfire warlock/eldritch theurge and relied on hellfire blast and Searing Spell. Also had a Holocaust Disciple (Fire Avatar of Elemental Evil) cohort.
The Dragon Dragon Dragon Dragon.... He had at least six half-dragon templates, one or two levels in every vaguely dragon-related class (he didn't take a second level in any class until 8th level), and was a dragonborn of Bahamut spellscale. He also acquired breath weapons from as many other places as he could. This party was very much the blasty type, if you couldn't already tell.
The Controller. Another multi-Evolved undead, this time a flaming frozen acidic skeleton. He went beguiler/archivist/true necro with a few levels in sovereign speaker to pick up every domain that lets you rebuke creatures. He had enough minions to fill several monster manuals, and the one time he wanted to use all his minions at once (instead of just taking his most useful half-dozen along for a given mission) to take over a town it took me two days between sessions to resolve everything.
The Monk. Thri-kreen with every Cha-boosting template and every Cha-to-X ability he cound find, going into monk/wilder/fist of Zuoken. He ended up being the party face. Ugliest sonofabitch you will ever meet, but every NPC forgot that once he opened his mouth mandibles.

So...yeah. Coming up with challenges for the parties (much less for the encounters for when they came together to form one big party of 10 for a few sessions) was...challenging.