Is my pathfinder paladin broken?

[Dragonrider99]

So I'm playing a archer paladin in a pretty laid back group. No serious questing, not a whole ton of story and it's mostly combat. It's pretty cool. The issue: my paladin just hit 7th and with the addition of manyshot I now have a pretty badass full attack routine. My bow is a mighty comp +4, it's +1 magic, shocking, and due to previous dm giving me a deal with a crafter it just added holy. (We have since changed dm) my feats are: point blank, precise shot, deadly aim, rapid shot and multi shot. With my decent dex, on full attacks without smite or holy and inside 30" (which is normal range for me) I'm doing

4 arrows on 3 attacks at +10/+10/+5 for 1d8+10+1d6 shock per arrow. More obviously if holy triggers or i activate one of 3/day smites.

I was able to "one shot"(volley) enemy targets with pretty reliable ease, but: I seem to be out damaging others in the group. Average seems to be hits for 10-16dmg a round, while I'm clocking up closer to 40 or more. I'm worried this guy is "stealing the spotlight" or otherwise broken. And since he's a ranged character with great saves, decent AC and and can heal himself - not a lot can really challenge him. More important - not much can challange him and NOT be impossible or super hard / probally gonna kill the others in my party, just making the concern worse.

Any ideas how to fix? The bow is the divine bond item. So far no one has raised the grumbles- but I want to avoid it even coming up. So any suggestions would be awsome. Thanks.

[Zancloufer]

I think your party is broken. Your a solid front-liner with decent DPR.

Quickly poking through the PFSRD shows that most CR 7-8 monsters have 50-90HP. Doing ~40 damage a round means that your can 2-3 shot most monsters at your CR. If you are fighting monsters you can one shot, they are probably CR 4-5, much weaker than the party [in theory]. If a group of level 7 PCs are having trouble fighting monsters at their CR something besides your Paladin must be at fault.

[EisenKreutzer]

10-16 damage at lvl 7? Yeah, you're not the problem, the other PCs are. They must be seriously badly built.

[legomaster00156]

That's actually 12-24 damage per arrow, with four arrows. That said, hardly broken.

[Geddy2112]

You are a paladin, being "broken" in the sense of being too powerful or game breaking is not possible.

You are also in the "golden years" where high DPR full BAB martial can shine-your barbarian, gunslinger, dakka ranger/archer/fighter etc. That said, if the other characters are only doing 10-16 damage per round they are poorly built. I am currently in a campaign with an 8th level paladin that is a combat medic/tank and less of a damage dealer, but she manages ~30 damage a round on a full attack with a spear.

Your options are to not optimize any more(although you have all of the archery feats up and running, so that cat's out of the bag) or show the other players how to build stronger characters. You could also sandbag your playstyle, wading into melee with a less than optimal weapon.

[Dragonrider99]

The rest of the group is:
A fighter normally gets 2 attacks. Puts out usually 1 hit per routine, but is (from what I recall) about 15-20per hit.

A alchemist who favors bombs and ranged attacks but can hulk out when needed. So far has been the one going down most often, bombs do some damage. Ranged attacks not much. Beast mode only seen once and that was a while back so I can't remember the full effect he had.

A cleric who channels neg, and Carries a big ass sword. Does ok most of the time, also on the average around 20/hit but only 1 hit a round train.

Final other character died last game. He was a fighter/mage multiclass and got aced in combat. Straight up done. No chance To save. Not sure what the replacement is.

So I suppose the others are better then my initial estimate. And maybe it's entirely logical I'm feeling guilty about enjoying a successful character. But the last thing I want is my group to be annoyed or otherwise less then enjoying things when it's "monster shows up!" /and i go "4 arrows to face for 75dmg." Dm: right it's dead. Ok next...

We also have a newish dm (almost had a BAAAAAD auto correct there lol) and I don't want to be the guy that can't be dealt with, cause his hp/AC/saves/attacks/healing is too good for the beasties. Example: was looking thru the monster lists: if we encounter a cr10 red dragon (should be a hard encounter because cr=apl +3) I can take it out in one volley from full health if I get only average rolls. That strikes me as REALLY somewhat overpowered. Or maybe it's just Paladin kicking ass at it's preferred job. I dunno. I just don't want to be "that guy" at the table. Ya know?

[Krazzman]

You got the equivalent of a +4 weapon at level 7 and grabbed the feats needed for your role. While the fighter seems to be using something subpar as well as the cleric. Can't tell anything about the alchemist since I never played or encountered one as enemy or other PC.

I believe there were some vital strike feats that debuffed enemies with entangled and such. Getting those might be worthwhile to mitigate your big damage spikes.

[Doctor Despair]

As far as sandbagging, try only shooting one arrow per target instead of all one. They'll buy into the illusion then, I think

[GilesTheCleric]

Based on your party, it definitely sounds that they're the ones behind the curve, rather than you being ahead of the curve. That's not a slam against them, just an observation that they don't seem to be looking for the most powerful options for their system mastery.

Re: alchemists - the only one I've seen in play was also bomb-focused, and trailed significantly behind the rest of the party (even behind my 2-level-lower 3.5 rogue).

In terms of playing down, the suggestion of not using a full attack isn't bad; you could also consider spreading out your attacks, one or two per foe. That should hopefully weaken then enough that one of your party mates can last hit, and thus feel good about their contribution.

[Geddy2112]

The party seems to be optimized-the alchemist should be able to keep pace, and while the cleric won't match you in melee unless they are also melee focused, a tier 1 caster well optimized should be doing a lot more than hitting things. Bombs are really good because they hit touch AC so they should be dealing damage unless the DM is throwing fire resistant enemies at the group and the alchemist has no other bomb discoveries. The other problem is that these characters and classes have far more they can do besides damage, but if they never get a chance to do these things, their classes look weak, when they are truly strong.


Example: was looking thru the monster lists: if we encounter a cr10 red dragon (should be a hard encounter because cr=apl +3) I can take it out in one volley from full health if I get only average rolls. That strikes me as REALLY somewhat overpowered. Or maybe it's just Paladin kicking ass at it's preferred job.
The CR system is not all that accurate, and in this situation you are literally a hard counter. It is an evil dragon, and you are a paladin with a holy weapon. Likewise, a single enemy is not all that hard for a party of four, because of action economy.

Talk to your DM about encounter design. A few decent targets you can dakka down that only go for the frontliner or target saves play to your strengths and not the party's. In a horde of low level mooks, suddenly the alchemist and cleric are the heroes of the party. You know what your paladin can do to swarm of hornets? Jack squat. Concealment, spells like wind wall, invisibility, and plenty of other things can ruin your abilities and make other party members shine. When the encounter is just "kill 1-4 of these things" you win. Likewise, the DM might be tempted to use tougher monsters so they last longer, but these monsters will do more damage and kill the lesser optimized characters, while forcing you to do even more solo killing as the other party members fail to contribute meaningful damage. What happens if you get ambushed? grappled? tripped? Encounter design is far more than lining up for Napoleonic warfare.

[icefractal]

What you have looks appropriate for a 7th level character. The Holy weapon may skew things a bit, depending on how many of your opponents are evil, but in a level or two that will be on-par too.

If you're overshadowing people in practice, maybe try splitting up attacks (one attack on four targets instead of four on one), so you're wounding a bunch of foes for other people to finish off (or clearing away mooks) rather than melting the big foe in one round. If you want to downplay it further, you could give people a chance to surrender and ready an attack to shoot them if they don't, which means just one attack instead of four the first round.

Also, to an extent, this should even out as you go up in levels. You just got all the ingredients to kick ass, while other people still have some to assemble. Once they do, the Alchemist at least should be putting out a similar level of damage.

[Ualaa]

Ultimately, it doesn't matter how much or how little damage you deal.
Or whether you contribute in other ways, be it out-healing the monster's damage or providing battlefield control to make a hard fight easy.

The true litmus test is your contribution is relation to the others in your party.

If you cannot keep up with one or most members of the party, you're broken in a bad way.
If you're so far ahead of the rest of the group that they cannot contribute much, also broken.

If you're relatively close to the rest of the party, or at least to most of the party... then your DM can balance encounters properly, in a way that will push everyone a bit so the game is winnable but not easy to do so.

[Psyren]

Archery is much more powerful in PF, and Paladin compounds that due to ranged smite being built into the class rather than being a racial ACF.

This is not actually "broken" - however, you can indeed end up out of step with a party who is used to the power level of standard archers and paladins from 3.5.

Unfortunately, the only real solution is for your group to adjust their expectations; if they cannot do so, expect houseruled nerfs to your archer paladin.

[Tuvarkz]

At level 7, doing around 40 damage per round is perfectly fine. 10-16 damage per round is fine for levels 3-4. Level 7 fighter should have what, at least +5 to STR, a +2 weapon and weapon training+power attack, which on a greatsword is 2d6 (avg 7)+7+2+1+6=22 per swing (and this is me not taking into account a likely weapon specialization or mutation fighter or other bonuses)

[Stealth Marmot]

Just curious, how do you have 5 feats at 7th level as a paladin?

Edit: Nevermind, noticed this was Pathfinder, not 3.5

[Bronk]

The rest of the group is:
A fighter normally gets 2 attacks. Puts out usually 1 hit per routine, but is (from what I recall) about 15-20per hit.

A alchemist who favors bombs and ranged attacks but can hulk out when needed. So far has been the one going down most often, bombs do some damage. Ranged attacks not much. Beast mode only seen once and that was a while back so I can't remember the full effect he had.

A cleric who channels neg, and Carries a big ass sword. Does ok most of the time, also on the average around 20/hit but only 1 hit a round train.

Final other character died last game. He was a fighter/mage multiclass and got aced in combat. Straight up done. No chance To save. Not sure what the replacement is.

So I suppose the others are better then my initial estimate. And maybe it's entirely logical I'm feeling guilty about enjoying a successful character. But the last thing I want is my group to be annoyed or otherwise less then enjoying things when it's "monster shows up!" /and i go "4 arrows to face for 75dmg." Dm: right it's dead. Ok next...

We also have a newish dm (almost had a BAAAAAD auto correct there lol) and I don't want to be the guy that can't be dealt with, cause his hp/AC/saves/attacks/healing is too good for the beasties. Example: was looking thru the monster lists: if we encounter a cr10 red dragon (should be a hard encounter because cr=apl +3) I can take it out in one volley from full health if I get only average rolls. That strikes me as REALLY somewhat overpowered. Or maybe it's just Paladin kicking ass at it's preferred job. I dunno. I just don't want to be "that guy" at the table. Ya know?

I think you are just feeling guilty about having a successful character. I'll admit that's a bad feeling though! But look, aside from having a halfway decent bow, it sounds like you're just picking decent feats.

As for the others, it's great that they aren't complaining. If you're worried about them starting, maybe you could make some suggestions for them. I'm not that into pathfinder, but it looks like the alchemist can learn to make better bombs as his class feature, for example. Next level, suggest they take the 'fast bomb' discovery.

Get the cleric to cast a useful spell every now and then.

I'm not sure about the fighter, but they clearly could have chosen the same feats as you did and gotten pretty much the same damage output. Maybe offer a feat suggestion, and help them get a better weapon?

[Dragonrider99]

I don't like telling others how to play - offering suggestions and stuff unless I'm asked. So I'll hold off on that. Sounds like it's just a case of my character being optimized and encountering things that I can "hard counter" so that said I have a better idea how to go forward. I'll try to split up shots into the "mooks" and maybe move around more and perhaps try to do more party healing/spell casting. As it is now I generally find a spot, set up and volley like no tomorrow at a target, only moving to heal or otherwise helped if directly asked. The only other thing I can do is maybe switch out the manyshot feat. I hit 7th last game, and have not played since. So I have time to pick something else. I'm gonna stay away from leadership because I don't wanna introduce even more shenanigans. But any suggestions on a alternative feat?

[GilesTheCleric]

You could take some feats that would benefit your teammates. Eg. Protection Devotion (CC) gives you a +AC aura that scales, which I'm sure your allies would appreciate.

[Blackhawk748]

10-16 damage at lvl 7? Yeah, you're not the problem, the other PCs are. They must be seriously badly built.

I agree, a freakin Fighter with Weapon Spec and a one handed weapon should be hitting higher than that on average.

[BWR]

I'm going to be the voice of dissent here: you are too powerful.

Balance isn't based on what an 'average' player around the world can do, or how easy it is to build a character to do X; balance is in relation to the PCs at your table, and you are more powerful than they are.

If you want to change this situation you will either have to talk to the others about giving them a hand in rebuilding their characters and teaching them how to play more effectively or rebuild your own guy to be less effective, like dumping Rapid Shot or Manyshot in favor of Extra Lay on Hands or something.

[GilesTheCleric]

I'm going to be the voice of dissent here: you are too powerful.

Balance isn't based on what an 'average' player around the world can do, or how easy it is to build a character to do X; balance is in relation to the PCs at your table, and you are more powerful than they are.

If you want to change this situation you will either have to talk to the others about giving them a hand in rebuilding their characters and teaching them how to play more effectively or rebuild your own guy to be less effective, like dumping Rapid Shot or Manyshot in favor of Extra Lay on Hands or something.

I don't disagree with you, but the party as a whole is going to start running into real problems with monsters as the CR ratchets up, unless the GM notices and changes the types of encounters.

[emeraldstreak]

I'm going to be the voice of dissent here: you are too powerful.

Balance isn't based on what an 'average' player around the world can do, or how easy it is to build a character to do X; balance is in relation to the PCs at your table, and you are more powerful than they are.

If you want to change this situation you will either have to talk to the others about giving them a hand in rebuilding their characters and teaching them how to play more effectively or rebuild your own guy to be less effective, like dumping Rapid Shot or Manyshot in favor of Extra Lay on Hands or something.

Alternatively - and considering it seems your group plays for the 'social' aspect, not the 'game' aspect - put a roleplaying limitation on your character.

[Bronk]

I don't like telling others how to play - offering suggestions and stuff unless I'm asked.

I'm often in the same situation, so I feel for you. I've been in a game for a while with people who can never seem to get a handle on the rules of their own characters. For example, there's a ranger who can't figure out how to attack correctly, and a rogue who can't figure out how to sneak attack after multiple years and so won't attack at all. Quite the waste of time.

As for your character, aside from picking easily accessible and perfectly reasonable feats, the only thing setting you apart from the other players is your weapon. If your new DM really can't handle this sort of thing, and can't figure out how not to send you up against the exact opponents that you're best at fighting (evil, no DR), that might be what needs to be changed.

Your options are:

A: Get the other players to stop being so lame. (Not in the cards at this time, maybe never, even with the gentlest of suggestions.)

B: Get the DM to stop sending evil mooks with no defenses at you.

C: Lose the bow.

I think that even if you don't want to talk to the other players, which you should probably do, you should at least talk to the DM, see what he or she thinks. Maybe start by making sure they're okay with the recent 'holy' addition.

As for your next feats, it almost doesn't matter, since your issue is with the feats you already have.

[Segev]

One question to ask to be sure: have you seen signs that the other players or the DM are upset with how effective your character is? Or are you just pre-emptively worried?

[Dragonrider99]

More of a preemptive thing. No one has gotten grumbly at the table, nor brought a concern to me otherwise. One person mentioned the bow might be a bit strong. (So I may change out the holy enhancement and swap for armor improvement, since I do have a few various "bane" arrows, and with the divine bond abilitys and smite I can almost do the same thing if needed anyway)

In fact since I'm typing an thinking at same time... yea. I think that's what I'll do. See if I can trade the holy enhancement off the bow, and make my masterwork armor +1 or something, or get a stone or whatever. I didn't have to pay a ton to get the holy anyway, so this seems to be a fair way to do it. At the very least it makes the bow seem "less" (although the holy enhancement is obviously not the main cause, as last game it only activated on one creature, in one encounter out of 4)

I'll grab manyshot for now, (just because I'm the only dedicated full ranged character, and having the option to just "unload the clips" at some thing might save our butts) then at 9th look for some other abilities.

[Krazzman]

More of a preemptive thing. No one has gotten grumbly at the table, nor brought a concern to me otherwise. One person mentioned the bow might be a bit strong. (So I may change out the holy enhancement and swap for armor improvement, since I do have a few various "bane" arrows, and with the divine bond abilitys and smite I can almost do the same thing if needed anyway)

In fact since I'm typing an thinking at same time... yea. I think that's what I'll do. See if I can trade the holy enhancement off the bow, and make my masterwork armor +1 or something, or get a stone or whatever. I didn't have to pay a ton to get the holy anyway, so this seems to be a fair way to do it. At the very least it makes the bow seem "less" (although the holy enhancement is obviously not the main cause, as last game it only activated on one creature, in one encounter out of 4)

I'll grab manyshot for now, (just because I'm the only dedicated full ranged character, and having the option to just "unload the clips" at some thing might save our butts) then at 9th look for some other abilities.

Good thinking about dropping the Holy enchantment.
I know that Vital Strike is not really liked by some, but from what you told so far, might be a viable way of gimping your character while making you better at single shot stuff. Or something like Extra Mercy...