summoners ?

[ZiggenTheLord]

i was wondering if anybody knew any good summoning classes or prestige classes for dnd 3.5, no homebrew and no race restrictions, the character in question is of evil allignment, thank you

[GilesTheCleric]

I think malconvoker is the usual go-to, but you could do fine with any T1 class.

[Lateral]

I think malconvoker is the usual go-to, but you could do fine with any T1 class.
Malconvoker's non-evil only, unfortunately.

With that said, a plain old Wizard makes a perfectly good summoner, especially with the UA ACF that makes summoning a standard action.

[Particle_Man]

NE Druid. With Natural Spell (obviously) you are a harmless little woodland creature, having nothing at all to do with the critters making your enemies' lives miserable (and short).

Don't mess with Mother Nature!

[eggynack]

Wizards are better for utility summoning, cause the SM list gets more creatures with fancy SLA's, druids are better for beatstick summoning, cause they just get better burly beatsticks, and clerics can still do utility summoning, but not as well as wizards, cause they lack the rapid summoning ACF.

[Calthropstu]

Best summoning class is actually the sorcerer. Druid is great for beefy summons, but 1: they don't get the smite 2: they don't get the resistances and 3: they don't have the spell like abilities.

A sorcerer will never, EVER run out of summons past level 8, and since you're specializing in summons anyways, it's not like you're trying to be the everything caster that wizards are. Plus, when dealing with planar binding, passing the charisma checks is a hell of a lot easier than with a wizard since charisma is your primary stat dependency.

Plus, rp wise "I'm so sorry, the demon's blood that runs through my veins and gives me my powers makes me do terrible things sometimes... can you please forgive me?"

[Deadline]

Best summoning class is actually the sorcerer. Druid is great for beefy summons, but 1: they don't get the smite 2: they don't get the resistances and 3: they don't have the spell like abilities.

Can you spell out the class features that grant Smite and Resistances (they aren't obvious to everyone)? Keep in mind the OP specified 3.5, not Pathfinder, so be sure to note anything that is specific to Pathfinder.

[Calthropstu]

Can you spell out the class features that grant Smite and Resistances (they aren't obvious to everyone)? Keep in mind the OP specified 3.5, not Pathfinder, so be sure to note anything that is specific to Pathfinder.

Ummm... the templates?

Celestial (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/celestialCreature.htm)
Fiendish (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/fiendishCreature.htm)

[Coretron03]

Can you spell out the class features that grant Smite and Resistances (they aren't obvious to everyone)? Keep in mind the OP specified 3.5, not Pathfinder, so be sure to note anything that is specific to Pathfinder.

In pathfinder summons get smite evil/good depending on your alignment you get either the feinish or celerial template (that also gives some minor energy resistances) that allow the summoned creature to deal extra damage equal to its Hit dice and bonus to hit equal to its charasmia modfier.

Edit: nervermind, it appears 3.5 gets them too, just a slight bit less powerful.

[Calthropstu]

In pathfinder summons get smite evil/good depending on your alignment you get either the feinish or celerial template (that also gives some minor energy resistances) that allow the summoned creature to deal extra damage equal to its Hit dice and bonus to hit equal to its charasmia modfier.

Edit: nervermind, it appears 3.5 gets them too, just a slight bit less powerful.

Yes, Pathfinder beefed up summons and the celestial/fiendish templates considerably, and allowed you to apply the templates as you saw fit. They later allowed you to add the resolute and entropic templates to summons as well in the bestiary 2.

But that is pathfinder, this is 3.5... and 3.5 is quite a bit more restrictive with summons. Still, they do summon fiendish and celestial creatures, which get a smite, dr and elemental resistances.

[eggynack]

Best summoning class is actually the sorcerer. Druid is great for beefy summons, but 1: they don't get the smite 2: they don't get the resistances and 3: they don't have the spell like abilities.
I'll take getting the additional power of a higher level summons, or the ability to get the same creature out of a lower level slot, over some minor resistances or smiting any day. You really want to pay a whole spell level to make your dire wolf fiendish? That the druid can also get a ring of the beast pretty cheap is a solid advantage hereabouts as well. Spell-like abilities are great though, and I said as much. Hence their greater capability in the area of utility summoning. I'd also vastly prefer a wizard to a sorcerer. You're spending a ton of spells known to summon on a sorcerer, and again, rapid summoning.


A sorcerer will never, EVER run out of summons past level 8, and since you're specializing in summons anyways, it's not like you're trying to be the everything caster that wizards are. Plus, when dealing with planar binding, passing the charisma checks is a hell of a lot easier than with a wizard since charisma is your primary stat dependency.
Planar binding seems distinct from summoning. And wizards do it just fine. Better, really, because you can get all the many spells it requires without, again, eating a ton of spells known. These things are super spell intensive.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Recommended (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=11186) Reading (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?255219-The-Summoner-s-Desk-Reference-D-amp-D-3-5). Also (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2791.0).

As far as base classes go...

Archivist is probably the best bet. You get both Summon Nature's Ally (good at low levels) and Summon Monster (good at high), along with undead and Planar Ally. If you take Spontaneous Summoner (CDiv) you can spontaneous cast Summon Nature's Ally, opening you up for feats like Ashbound (free Extend and an attack bonus) and the god-powerful Greenbound Summoning, which takes your already beefy summoned animals and turns them into super-strong, neigh-indestrcutable plant-terminators. With battlefield control SLAs, I might add.
Bards, specifically Savage Bards (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#bardVariantSavageBard) , have an interesting twist on things. Their summons aren't as strong (though they are spontaneously casting SNA, soooo...), but they can use Dragonfire Inspiration and other tricks to augment their minions in ways that other classes have trouble matching.
Binder, if you start at 10th level or higher, is an interesting option. Zceryll (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/frcc/20070718) gives you full-strength Summon Monster once every 5 rounds, all day long. The fun part is that it doesn't have a listed duration-- it's "any creature a sorcerer of your level could summon," not "cast as a sorcerer of your level." Meaning you can roll into town with literal armies of demons, provided the DM doesn't murder you. Even with sane limits, the sheer variety of SLAs you have at-will access to is daunting.
Clerics are solid choices, though I don't think they can get SNA at all. The Summoning Domain helps them a lot at low levels, as does being naturally armored and beefy. Favored Souls are generally inferior to Clerics at everything, but touch on the same points.
Druids have trouble reaching beyond melee brutes with SNA, but with Greenbound and Ashbound they get the best melee brutes. They have more limited access to high-power outsiders than others, relying mostly (I think) on Fey Ring (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fw/20040710a). (Clerics and Druids can do it too)
Psions (and Wilders, and Erudites, and Ardents) can play with Astral Constructs, which lack SLAs at high levels but make impressive bruisers at low levels. The Constructor PrC (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040625b) adds a nice bit of power to them, too. Sadly Complete Psionic decided to weaken the power by limiting you to one Construct. Still, an interesting variant.
Sorcerers get Summon Monster but no special tricks, to the best of my knowledge. Planar Binding is less good for them than for Wizards, since it's a wasted spell slot on days you're not using it.
Wizards make the best Summon Monster users. The Conjurerer variants (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/specialistWizardVariants.htm#conjurerVariants) in UA basically get rid of all the normal annoyances for summoning-- cast as a standard action, get Augment Summoning for free, and spontaneous cast Summon Monster. The Master Specialist PrC doubles down on the benefits, making your summons beefier, harder to dispel, and potentially, occasional, swift actions.


Sooo... overall I think I'd take the Archivist for sheer variety and power, or the Wizard for the special Conjurer boosts.

As for Prestige Classes,

Malconvoker is great but alignment-prohibited.
Thaumaturgist, from the humble DMG, is divine-only but offers free Extend Spell for your summons and some minor benefits for Planar Allies.
The aforementioned Master Specialist is nice for wizards.
The aforementioned Constructor is nice for psionic types.
Ectopic Adept requires you to be a psionic summoner using Complete Psionic, which is always a bit of a mixed bag, but... actually, it's still kind of crappy even if you have to use the book. Stick to Constructor.

[AnachroNinja]

Archivist is the premier summoner. That is all.

[Bullet06320]

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?498825-the-Conjurer-s-Handbook&highlight=conjuration%20handbook

the 5th post has a bunch of good links

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?506848-Teach-me-how-to-summon-well-(3-5)

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?135096-Planar-Binding-and-You-(Bonus-Stories-Included)

a couple of other usefull threads to



personally I go for conjuration specialist, with the rapid summoning ACF, then into master specialist as soon as possible, than you can branch out in a variety of ways from there

[Calthropstu]

I'll take getting the additional power of a higher level summons, or the ability to get the same creature out of a lower level slot, over some minor resistances or smiting any day. You really want to pay a whole spell level to make your dire wolf fiendish? That the druid can also get a ring of the beast pretty cheap is a solid advantage hereabouts as well. Spell-like abilities are great though, and I said as much. Hence their greater capability in the area of utility summoning. I'd also vastly prefer a wizard to a sorcerer. You're spending a ton of spells known to summon on a sorcerer, and again, rapid summoning.

Planar binding seems distinct from summoning. And wizards do it just fine. Better, really, because you can get all the many spells it requires without, again, eating a ton of spells known. These things are super spell intensive.

It requires 3 spells: binding, circle of protection and dimensional anchor. The anchor is an absolute necessity for anyone dealing with extraplanar creatures regardless of summoning, so the sorcerer should take that anyways. The circle of protection is also, by no means, a wasted slot. And the benefits of the binding itself far outweigh the so called "useless" slot. It takes a fair amount of shenanigans to get the kind of charisma you need to pull off a good binding... shenanigans a sorcerer will do anyways. A wizard has to go WAY out of his way in order to get it all, and most of those are otherwise useless to him.

As for the whole "wasted spell level", yes some of the things in summon monster appear at a lower level due to the templates, which give a +1 LA. At low levels, such as the wolf you mentioned, it's useless. But once you get to the damage resistance? Hell yeah it's better. The staying power of a trex with 10 DR is a hell of a lot better than a standard trex, and the +18(36 for outsiders) damage on a successful smite at a 19-20 crit? Hell yeah. Of course, pathfinder got rid of that disparity and dropped the level adjustment, so arcane gets it at the same level druids do, just a less extensive animal list and more actual outsiders (just another thing pathfinder does so much better).

[GilesTheCleric]

A wizard has to go WAY out of his way in order to get it all, and most of those are otherwise useless to him.

Does purchasing three scrolls really count as going way out of the way?

[Deadline]

Ummm... the templates?

Celestial (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/celestialCreature.htm)
Fiendish (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/fiendishCreature.htm)

You made the claim that Sorcerers were better at summoning than anyone else. You mentioned Smite and Resistances in the same paragraph, forgive me for not understanding if they were unrelated.

So, given that a wizard and sorcerer summon off the exact same list, and that a Conjuration specialist wizard has access to the Rapid Summoning ACF, what is it that makes a sorcerer better at summoning? Is it just that they have slightly more spells per day?

I do think that Sorcerers make better Planar Binders (due to the Charisma increase), but with debuffs applied, a Wizard can do it well enough that you won't really notice the difference.

[Inevitability]

The Spell Sovereign from Dragon Magazine 357 can 'summon' living spells in a sense. It eats a bit of casting, but depending on what you're going to do with it a number of levels in it may be worth it.

[Calthropstu]

Does purchasing three scrolls really count as going way out of the way?
What scrolls? I am talking about the inherent reliance on Charisma by sorcerers making them better binders.


You made the claim that Sorcerers were better at summoning than anyone else. You mentioned Smite and Resistances in the same paragraph, forgive me for not understanding if they were unrelated.

So, given that a wizard and sorcerer summon off the exact same list, and that a Conjuration specialist wizard has access to the Rapid Summoning ACF, what is it that makes a sorcerer better at summoning? Is it just that they have slightly more spells per day?

I do think that Sorcerers make better Planar Binders (due to the Charisma increase), but with debuffs applied, a Wizard can do it well enough that you won't really notice the difference.

Not just the fact that they have more spells, but because they never NOT have summons. Wizard: I prepare 2x Summon Monster 4. Sorcerer: I Have Summon Monster 4.

While the wizard can only cast it twice, the sorcerer can cast it as many times as he has slots. The wizard must then allocate his spells according to his needs throughout the day... while the sorcerer casts... summon monster 4. Who is the better summoner? The one who does nothing but summons, or the one who will occasionally cast summons?

Summoning is an extreme specialization, and no one is better at that than spontaneous casters... who never runs out.

[GilesTheCleric]

What scrolls? I am talking about the inherent reliance on Charisma by sorcerers making them better binders.

Ah, my apologies. I thought you were talking about permanent class resources.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Not just the fact that they have more spells, but because they never NOT have summons. Wizard: I prepare 2x Summon Monster 4. Sorcerer: I Have Summon Monster 4.

While the wizard can only cast it twice, the sorcerer can cast it as many times as he has slots. The wizard must then allocate his spells according to his needs throughout the day... while the sorcerer casts... summon monster 4. Who is the better summoner? The one who does nothing but summons, or the one who will occasionally cast summons?

Summoning is an extreme specialization, and no one is better at that than spontaneous casters... who never runs out.
Point of order: a summoning-focused Wizard can convert prepared slots to Summon Monster spontaneously, like a Druid, and casts them as a standard action.

[Coretron03]

Point of order: a summoning-focused Wizard can convert prepared slots to Summon Monster spontaneously, like a Druid, and casts them as a standard action.

To be fair, if you use the ACF for spontaneous summoning you lose a whole spell level worth of summoning.

[MesiDoomstalker]

What scrolls? I am talking about the inherent reliance on Charisma by sorcerers making them better binders.



Not just the fact that they have more spells, but because they never NOT have summons. Wizard: I prepare 2x Summon Monster 4. Sorcerer: I Have Summon Monster 4.

While the wizard can only cast it twice, the sorcerer can cast it as many times as he has slots. The wizard must then allocate his spells according to his needs throughout the day... while the sorcerer casts... summon monster 4. Who is the better summoner? The one who does nothing but summons, or the one who will occasionally cast summons?

Summoning is an extreme specialization, and no one is better at that than spontaneous casters... who never runs out.
Or, near with me here, a Wizard preps all Summon Monster spells. But, on the next day, prepare something else. The only thing Sorcerers have over Wizards in this regard is spells per day (Not relevant after level 5 or so) and Cha focus for Binding (an area a Wizard can prep spells to mitigate the difference or even become better than an equal level Sorcerer).

[Flickerdart]

i was wondering if anybody knew any good summoning classes or prestige classes for dnd 3.5, no homebrew and no race restrictions, the character in question is of evil allignment, thank you

Clerics are pretty great and underrated summoners. For instance, a Cleric 1 with Spellgifted (Conjuration), Summoner domain, Domain Focus (1), Primitive Casting (Human), Dark Speech (Flaw) and Divine Spell Power (Flaw) can pop a CL12 Summon Monster I.

[Coretron03]

They don't even get extra spells per day if you take focused specialist in conjuration/ Domain wizard and elven generalist which brings you up to sorcrer spell per day. Wizards also get more feats as a bonus which they can trade for augment summons that makes your summons harder to dispel and increase thenCon/Str bonus by 2 at level 10 and 20 or could take master specialist for tougher summons and such.

[Doctor Awkward]

If Malconvoker is out on account of alignment issues, Alienist from Complete Arcane isn't a terrible second option.


10/10 spellcaster advancement, grants familiar progression, gives your familiar and anything you summon the pseudonatural template, bonus metamagic feats, extra highest level spell slot per day, makes you an outsider.

It's not altogether awful, just rarely used because Malconvoker is strictly better, and the mechanics of the two classes clash a lot.

[eggynack]

It requires 3 spells: binding, circle of protection and dimensional anchor. The anchor is an absolute necessity for anyone dealing with extraplanar creatures regardless of summoning, so the sorcerer should take that anyways. The circle of protection is also, by no means, a wasted slot. And the benefits of the binding itself far outweigh the so called "useless" slot. It takes a fair amount of shenanigans to get the kind of charisma you need to pull off a good binding... shenanigans a sorcerer will do anyways. A wizard has to go WAY out of his way in order to get it all, and most of those are otherwise useless to him.
I'm not saying these spells are useless. It's just a big cost, especially when you additionally consider the fact that wizards get the upgraded bindings for free, and that you also can get two opposed alignment circles for free, both allowing you to bind a wider variety of creatures. These things cost the sorcerer, and they don't really cost the wizard anything. It's a huge advantage. And wizards can use their spells to just fine at the binding portion. This has been shown a number of times. A wizard going way out of their way is a wizard that isn't going that far out of their way at all.


As for the whole "wasted spell level", yes some of the things in summon monster appear at a lower level due to the templates, which give a +1 LA. At low levels, such as the wolf you mentioned, it's useless. But once you get to the damage resistance? Hell yeah it's better. The staying power of a trex with 10 DR is a hell of a lot better than a standard trex, and the +18(36 for outsiders) damage on a successful smite at a 19-20 crit? Hell yeah.
It's DR 10/magic, which is going to fold against more or less everything. Most things with meaningful combat ability are going to have magic weapons, and most are also going to have enough damage to get through that much DR. Anyway, who cares about a t-rex? If you're at that level, the druid is casting greater earth elementals out of a spell slot one lower. More HP, better DR, slightly lower damage on a standard, way more damage on a full (enough that it outdoes the t-rex's standard+smite against non-outsiders), better to-hit, better AC, elemental immunities that I'd definitely take over the weak resistances, just advantage on advantage on advantage. And, with a ring of the beast, you're getting this out of a 6th level slot. And, with rashemi elemental summoning, that earth elemental is way more powerful than I just said.

This comparison you're staking out isn't close. It's not close to being close. You're getting minor advantages here and there, but it's not nearly enough. I don't even have to go there though. Because, considering it further, while you're using your 8th level slot to summon a fiendish t-rex, the druid can use that same slot to summon, on average, two normal ones. Are you really going to trade away an entire t-rex for smiting, DR, and some energy resistance? Again, I don't think the sorcerer is even in the same ball park. Especially when you then apply that still super cheap ring of the beast to do it at a spell level lower.

[Flickerdart]

If Malconvoker is out on account of alignment issues, Alienist from Complete Arcane isn't a terrible second option.
Alienist is awful. Giving up the ability to summon everything except pseudonatural animals means that you're killing all your high level utility (summoning outsiders with SLAs).

[Doctor Awkward]

Alienist is awful. Giving up the ability to summon everything except pseudonatural animals means that you're killing all your high level utility (summoning outsiders with SLAs).

I truly will never tire of your incessant negativity.


First, a caster can qualify for Alienist at level 6 at the earliest. You are not going to swing many battles with the likes of SLA's available to you at that level, which include Glitterdust, Wind Wall, Magic Circle against evil. If you know for a fact there is going to be some sort of mid-level crunch that will only be solved by massive SLA utility, then delay entry.

Second, nothing in alienst forbids you from casting planar binding or gate. Since the class only alters summon monster spells, you can still bring in all the outsider help you want.


Alienist is not "awful". It's something different, especially when better options are, for whatever reason, out the window.

[Flickerdart]

Alienist is not "awful". It's something different, especially when better options are, for whatever reason, out the window.

Alienist is a class about the summon monster spell that makes your summon monster spells worse. The benefits of the pseudonatural template are extremely minor. You can be a good summoner despite being an Alienist, but never because of it.

It's probably the worst class you can actually take as a summoner that still progresses spells.

[Grod_The_Giant]

I truly will never tire of your incessant negativity.


First, a caster can qualify for Alienist at level 6 at the earliest. You are not going to swing many battles with the likes of SLA's available to you at that level, which include Glitterdust, Wind Wall, Magic Circle against evil. If you know for a fact there is going to be some sort of mid-level crunch that will only be solved by massive SLA utility, then delay entry.

Second, nothing in alienst forbids you from casting planar binding or gate. Since the class only alters summon monster spells, you can still bring in all the outsider help you want.


Alienist is not "awful". It's something different, especially when better options are, for whatever reason, out the window.
It also doesn't really do much. Pseudonatural creatures aren't really any stronger than Celestial or Fiendish versions, leaving you with two metamagic feats, a net +1 to Fort and Ref saves, one extra spell slot, six bonus hit points (oh boy!), and becoming an Outsider with some low-level DR and energy resistance. I mean, it's not utter crap if you don't mind giving up all your non-bruiser summons, but it's not much of an advantage over a straight ten levels of Wizard, either.

[ZiggenTheLord]

does anyone know how good dread necromancer (heroes of honor variant) is at being a summoner ?

[Deadline]

Point of order: a summoning-focused Wizard can convert prepared slots to Summon Monster spontaneously, like a Druid, and casts them as a standard action.

To clarify, on the page in Unearthed Arcana that lists the Rapid Summoning ACF, it also lists Enhanced Summoning and Spontaneous Summoning (and yes, a specialist conjurer can take all three ACFs).

To sum up, if you take a Conjurer specialist wizard vs. a Summoning focused Sorcerer, the sorcerer gets 1 spells per day per spell level more than the wizard, and can spontaneously choose to cast Summon monster with all of them (as opposed to the wizard who must prepare them). If the Wizard takes the Spontaneous Summoning ACF, then the Sorcerer's advantage is reduced to having 2 spells per day per spell level more than the wizard. The wizard can also take the Rapid Summoning ACF, and summon as a standard action rather than the Sorcerer's full round action. The wizard can also take the Enhanced Summoning ACF (although I don't think it's that good - free Augment summoning, some additional stat boosts to summoned critters, and makes the summoned creatures harder to dispel) to add further benefits.

Personally, I think faster summoning spells is worth a couple of extra spell slots per day, at least on a Summoning focused build.

[Grod_The_Giant]

does anyone know how good dread necromancer (heroes of honor variant) is at being a summoner ?
Meh? You're an excellent undead minionmancer, but actually summoning is somewhat more limited. You get Summon Undead in place of Summon Monster or Summon Nature's Ally, which is... beh? Some decent brutes, and you get Allips and Shadows at higher levels. You get Planar Binding, but not Dimensional Anchor or Magic Circle.

[ZiggenTheLord]

is there any reason Malconvoker is non-evil ? at DM's discression, couldnt it be evil? or is there any lore reason it cant ?

[Coretron03]

is there any reason Malconvoker is non-evil ? at DM's discression, couldnt it be evil? or is there any lore reason it cant ?

Its because the fluff from memory is centered around "Your not evil but you summon things that are and you trick/force the evil into doing stuff for you" in a simplified way. Let me check my books...