3.5 character challenge

[Asgurgolas]

And here we go: Character challenge for "Jack of all trades, master of none". Aka "a character that can pretty much cover any role as needed, but also a character that doesn't automatically suck greatly at everything".

What makes this hard?
1) No bard levels
2) No Factotum levels (altough Chameleon is fair game)
3) No complete mage (which means any race/feat/prestige class/class/spell/item coming from there)
4) must be Good-aligned.

- This character doesn't purposedly need to be a spellcaster, but spellcasting is welcome, either (or both!) arcane or divine.
- This character doesn't need to have max ranks in all skills, just those useful for role-covering (could be useful to have a highe Search skill, but even if he/she can't disable the trap, at least people know there IS one and possibly what it could do)

All in all, he/she doesn't need to EXCEL at everything, just be good to cover a role should someone be missing, and be able to do something solidly when not needed to do anything specific).

I could have named this "Chameleon Challenge" but I thought: "What if people can squeeze a decent build without using Chameleon? :O".

Maybe "The Ultimate Hybrid", as the good ol' Fighter/Mage/Thief back from 2E, which had its issues but still was awesome.

A quick and random example could be Rogue 2/Warblade 2/Swordsage 2/Chameleon 10/Pious Templar 1/Paladin of freedom 3, chaotic good and focused on defense. Main skillset would be uh... roguish (aka trapmonkey) and just swap focus in the morning based on what needed, being able to fight with melee with pretty much any weapon, and using a few maneuvers to back himself up.

Also yes, hybrids are *VERY* MAD characters, which makes things more difficult to build an effective one :P

[GilesTheCleric]

Human Cloistered Cleric 3 with the feats Jack of All Trades, Nymph's Kiss, and Open Minded. Place all stats into int and wis.

[Particle_Man]

Just for clarification, what are the roles that you have in mind? Do you mean "Cleric, Fighter, Wizard, Rogue" or do you mean something like "Tank, DPS, BFC, Face, etc."?

[Asgurgolas]

Roles in general, but nothing exceptionally specific. As the old F/M/T used to be: Able to do pretty much anything, yet not being utterly useless.

So yeah, the tank/dps/etcetera way: Someone who'll be able to tank if needed (probably won't be as good as a dedicated tank, but either he won't be turned into dust after being hit twice); and able to dish out damage (maybe not at the same rate as a true dps, yet not limited to "1d6+1 per round"), possibly spellcasting (from spells, or magic items such as wands/scrolls/staffs), things like that.

The character would need to have a main focus (or, something he or she does anyway) but still be able to dabble in other fields where altough not "a master", he/she'd be able to help out anyway

Ya see, I'm a real lover for hybrids, especially gishes, but they mostly end up sucking because of how D&D works now (the old dual/Multiclass from 2E was perfect... you could be both a fighter, a mage, and you didn't get branded as "utterly useless" because your caster level (or base attack bonus) wasn't maxed out)

I'm trying to figure out if there's a way to have characters like back in the ol' days; able to cover up for anybody, yet not being "utterly useless" in all fields

[Dialkis]

Well... It's technically an NPC class but I've allowed it to my players in the past... but what about Expert? No set class skills, you just get to choose 10. No combat at all, it's literally the skill monkey class. If you do that and then pick a more obscure race with a massive INT bonus you can get really crazy with it. There's not very much useful information to be found on the class, but I'm reasonably sure that no skill is considered cross-class to the Expert. In other words, besides your 10 starting skills, you can spend 4 ranks to "purchase" a new skill, but then you take ranks in it normally rather than at 50% like a cross-class skill. At high level with an INT score upwards of 20, you could be reasonably proficient in literally every skill in the game and then some. A bit cheaty since it's technically an NPC class, but now that you mention it, it's a cool idea. I'd definitely allow it in my games.

Granted, this build is just skills. It would be pretty difficult to build it as a combat character. But if you choose a naturally psionic race (might need to homebrew), and add skills like Profession: Medical or something like that, you could get in some Batman and Healer action as well as the Skill Monkey. I'm not sure how to add the Meat-Shield role to this build.

Best part of this is you don't need to mess with multiclassing!

[Particle_Man]

Warforged Psion (shaper) with the adamantine body feat at first level (fun fact, wearing armour does not interfere with using psionic powers!). At low levels you can tank (great AC) and at high levels you can make tanks (Astral Constructs for the win!). Your other powers can cover whatever else needs to be covered.

You lose out on skills but since you are a psion that is pretty much saying "I will duplicate or render obsolete the skill effect with my psionic power" while the rogue gnashes their teeth in tier-envy.

[EndocrineBandit]

I'm pretty sure a ranger/rogue gets all of the skills in the PHB along with a massive amount of skill points. I believe swordsage gets the most skill points at first level though.


Edit: I double checked swordsage. Class Skills (6 + Int modifier per level, ×6 at 1st level) I think that's the only class that gets x6 at first level instead of x4

[ShurikVch]

How about the Savant from Dragon Compendium?

[Zaq]

Binder/Incarnate/Chameleon. You're less of a generalist and more of an extremely flexible serial specialist. You can completely reinvent your suite of abilities on a daily basis, and it works even at fairly low levels. It takes a ton of bookkeeping, but you knew that when you signed up. Azurin is probably the best race. Use City Slicker from Races of Destiny to get Disguise as a class skill, if necessary; you can use silverbrow human instead of azurin if you'd rather not do that, but it's nice to have the bonus essentia.

[Eldariel]

Human Cloistered Cleric 3 with the feats Jack of All Trades, Nymph's Kiss, and Open Minded. Place all stats into int and wis.

While I'd suggest different feats, pure Cloistered Cleric is quite natural. Cleric casting enables you to be a great warrior down the line, and even just out of the blue he's pretty solid if the Str is high enough. Cloistered Cleric gets a lot of skills and Domains can open up various class skills. And of course, Cleric gets some of the better casting in the game plus Domains to expand the options. Cleric even gets 2nd level spells that buff skill checks!

[GilesTheCleric]

While I'd suggest different feats, pure Cloistered Cleric is quite natural. Cleric casting enables you to be a great warrior down the line, and even just out of the blue he's pretty solid if the Str is high enough. Cloistered Cleric gets a lot of skills and Domains can open up various class skills. And of course, Cleric gets some of the better casting in the game plus Domains to expand the options. Cleric even gets 2nd level spells that buff skill checks!

I would suggest different feats as well, but the OP seemed pretty interested in skills.

[Particle_Man]

How quickly does the character have to switch roles? Because an incarnate could pick the right souldmelds to cover relevant skills or combat abilities, but needs a day's notice.

[The Viscount]

How about the Savant from Dragon Compendium?

Strongly seconding Savant. This will actually go a long way toward all of those criteria. Arcane Casting, Divine Casting, all skills, sneak attack, bonus feats, rolling skills for other characters, and Savant is just diffuse enough with all of its various abilities that I can't say it's excellent at any one thing. You can cut down on MAD with academic priest since its divine list is all buffs, and it is a machine at qualifying for PrCs since it has a great deal of features (as long as it isn't super class specific like turning or smiting).

[Rizban]

Sir Haverdasher the Bold (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheet.html#id=169359) is a character I built for a gestalt game awhile back that does a bit of everything. Granted, it is gestalt and uses a few feats from Dragon Magazine, but I like him.

Drop his 1 Factotum level for something else, and it should fit in with your requirements. I'd go for (Psychic?) Rogue or something else with trapfinding.

Crusader 4/Factotum 1/Hellreaver 2//Incarnate 7
He has all the incarnum goodness from Incarnate, letting him do quite a bit just with that and get bonuses on the other things he can do, including an aura buff to help out his allies.
Crusader gives him some maneuvers, healing, and durability.
Hellreaver gives him some bonus smite-like damage and ranged swift action healing.
He gets psionics via a feat (Hidden Talent), he gets turn undead 7/day (Divine Soultouch/Divine Channeler + items).
He has some decent skills, including Search and Disable Device along with trapfinding, and high enough Bluff, Diplomacy, and Intimidate to be the party face.
Oh, and with gestalt, he's also got full BAB, pretty good saves, respectable hp, and can generally hold his own in pretty much any role other than heavy duty spellcasting. However, if he swapped a few skill points into UMD and picked up the right soulmelds, he could mimic one pretty well with UMD.

[Invader]

Druid 20

End of build :smallbiggrin:

But seriously, Druid 20.

[Asgurgolas]

I absolutely didn't know about Savant O__O I think I love it :O

[daremetoidareyo]

ape totem Trapkiller Barbarian 3/warblade 1/hidden power soulknife 6

Power attack
Hidden power psionic creation,
Urgrosh mindblade and other feats that give you mindblade weapon options. Add up to 4 different crazy weapons to your mindblade shapes every day using warblades adaptive style.
Scribe martial script

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Marbles, caltrops, egg grenades, vials of acid, Google the macguyver handbook 3.5.

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Combat. And problem solving.
If it has HP, hit it. Items too. Stone Dragon the tough ones.

Quick draw cabers, nets, lassos, whips, crowbars, misters, ballistae, splash weapons and any other weapon gear that are actually mindblades.

Summon all vegetable matter poisons/alchemical items.

Write martial scripts for your allies. Consider martial study for that crusader maneuver that heals.

Smash traps with survival checks

Social encounters: kill and intimidate.

For more face skills, take knight of tyrs Holt judgments feat and a cloistered cleric dip, and wear a nobles outfit and pretend that you're an official magistrate of the king.

[ComaVision]

Edit: I double checked swordsage. Class Skills (6 + Int modifier per level, ×6 at 1st level) I think that's the only class that gets x6 at first level instead of x4

Since nobody else pointed this out... That's a typo, it should be 4x like every RHD type and class in the game.

[EndocrineBandit]

Is it a typo? There's no text in the class block stating otherwise that I've seen. I don't think it was corrected at a later date, either. I believe there was an errata for the ToB but it didn't mention it.

[ComaVision]

Is it a typo? There's no text in the class block stating otherwise that I've seen. I don't think it was corrected at a later date, either. I believe there was an errata for the ToB but it didn't mention it.

The ToB errata turned into Complete Mage errata part way through (seriously, they never fixed it).

[EndocrineBandit]

Then.. Wouldn't that make it RAW?

[ComaVision]

Then.. Wouldn't that make it RAW?

Heh, I guess, and there are some weapons that do 1d43 damage if you just ignore blatant typos.

[EndocrineBandit]

Which ones are those, out of curiosity?

[ComaVision]

Which ones are those, out of curiosity?

Scorpion-tail Whip in Sandstorm, 1d33 for Small and 1d43 for Medium. They are supposed to be superscript 3s.

[EndocrineBandit]

Neat. But, there's also the issue of there not being a d43 or d33. Granted, there's no d3 either, but in several books it says to use a d6 and use 1-2 as 1, 3-4 as 2, and 5-6 as a 3. One could infer the difference. Where as with the starting skill points it's not stated anywhere that x 4 is the concrete, unchanging number for skill points at first level.

[The Viscount]

Neat. But, there's also the issue of there not being a d43 or d33. Granted, there's no d3 either, but in several books it says to use a d6 and use 1-2 as 1, 3-4 as 2, and 5-6 as a 3. One could infer the difference. Where as with the starting skill points it's not stated anywhere that x 4 is the concrete, unchanging number for skill points at first level.

Players Handbook page 62 states that you get 4X the regular number at first level. It's a concrete rule.

Glad that you like Savant. A few things to note for one: Their caster level is half class level, and be careful about which skills you select for skill assistance. Some, like Listen and Spot, don't really make for good choices, since if one character succeeds on them they can warn the rest of the party. Hide and Move Silently are useful choices because every member of the party has to succeed in order to sneak past, and then your whole team can sort of sneak.

[Zaq]

Neat. But, there's also the issue of there not being a d43 or d33. Granted, there's no d3 either, but in several books it says to use a d6 and use 1-2 as 1, 3-4 as 2, and 5-6 as a 3. One could infer the difference. Where as with the starting skill points it's not stated anywhere that x 4 is the concrete, unchanging number for skill points at first level.

I own a d3. There's no rule saying that a die has to be a Platonic solid (a d10 isn't, after all).

[Sam K]

Human druid 20.

If you don't like the idea of your pet giving you some versitality, human cloistered cleric with DMM: Persist. Pick domains according to what skills you want if you really want to skill-monkey it. Assuming you can persist lesser regeneration, you're already on pair with most mundanes when it comes to tanking - more vulnerable to burst (invest in con!), but on the other hand you can keep tanking all day long with your infinite HP.

You're a decent skillmonkey, a full caster, a cabable tank, and at higher levels you can persist combat buffs that make you a melee fighter equal to most things not in ToB - especially if you dip (or pick up a PRC) that gives you proficiency in martial weapons and heavy armor.

[EndocrineBandit]

Players Handbook page 62 states that you get 4X the regular number at first level. It's a concrete rule.



Table 4–1: Skill Points per Level
1st-level Higher-level
Class Skill Points 1 Skill Points 2
Barbarian (4 + Int modifier) × 4 4 + Int modifier
Bard (6 + Int modifier) × 4 6 + Int modifier
Cleric (2 + Int modifier) × 4 2 + Int modifier
Druid (4 + Int modifier) × 4 4 + Int modifier
Fighter (2 + Int modifier) × 4 2 + Int modifier
Monk (4 + Int modifier) × 4 4 + Int modifier
Paladin (2 + Int modifier) × 4 2 + Int modifier
Ranger (6 + Int modifier) × 4 6 + Int modifier
Rogue (8 + Int modifier) × 4 8 + Int modifier
Sorcerer (2 + Int modifier) × 4 2 + Int modifier
Wizard (2 + Int modifier) × 4 2 + Int modifier



This is the only thing I can find in the PHB, page 62 in regards to skill points at first level. It's simply a copy and paste of the skill points from the classes chapter. Again, Not seeing anything that dictates the multiplier is a concrete 4. Doesn't the specific trump the general?

[ComaVision]

Doesn't the specific trump the general?

I don't feel like cracking the PHB but it's obviously a typo. Classes get 4x skill points at first level because the max skill ranks is 4, it makes the math simple. If they were going to arbitrarily give one class a bunch more why would it be the Swordsage? If you want it to be 6x in your games then all the power to you but I've never seen anyone else think that's correct.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Binder/Incarnate/Chameleon. You're less of a generalist and more of an extremely flexible serial specialist. You can completely reinvent your suite of abilities on a daily basis, and it works even at fairly low levels. It takes a ton of bookkeeping, but you knew that when you signed up. Azurin is probably the best race. Use City Slicker from Races of Destiny to get Disguise as a class skill, if necessary; you can use silverbrow human instead of azurin if you'd rather not do that, but it's nice to have the bonus essentia.
Rogue 1/Totemist 2/Incarnate 2 is another great entry-- Incarnate has fantastic utility melds, while Totemist has the best offensive melds.

If you want to leave out the Chameleon, just a straight Totemist 2/Incarnate 18 is a fantastic generalist.

[Sam K]

I don't feel like cracking the PHB but it's obviously a typo. Classes get 4x skill points at first level because the max skill ranks is 4, it makes the math simple. If they were going to arbitrarily give one class a bunch more why would it be the Swordsage? If you want it to be 6x in your games then all the power to you but I've never seen anyone else think that's correct.

It's obviously a typo, but by RAW, they get 6x the skill points at level 1. Specific trumps general.

I would make a house rule that swordsages get the 4x skillpoints at level 1, just like everyone else, because that is (to me) OBVIOUSLY what is intended.

But still: by RAW, they get 6x.

[GilesTheCleric]

I could have sworn that somewhere in RAW is a statement about typos and other small errors as being self-evident and should be fixed by the GM, but I can't find the text in the errata files or 3.5 update doc.

[The Viscount]

This is the only thing I can find in the PHB, page 62 in regards to skill points at first level. It's simply a copy and paste of the skill points from the classes chapter. Again, Not seeing anything that dictates the multiplier is a concrete 4. Doesn't the specific trump the general?

The part of the page I was referring to was "A character gets at least 4 skill points (1 × 4 = 4) at 1st level, even if he or she has an Intelligence penalty."
Since this is not tied to any class, it makes clear that you receive X4 skills at first level.

As for whether the specific trumps the general, that invokes a question of whether or not the portion present counts as table rather than text, as text trumps table. I have no idea whether the clause about text trumping table trumps the clause about specific trumping general. In terms of strictest RAW swordsage might trump the normal rules, but it's clear it's a mistake.

[daremetoidareyo]

Neat. But, there's also the issue of there not being a d43 or d33. Granted, there's no d3 either, but in several books it says to use a d6 and use 1-2 as 1, 3-4 as 2, and 5-6 as a 3. One could infer the difference. Where as with the starting skill points it's not stated anywhere that x 4 is the concrete, unchanging number for skill points at first level.

D33 (https://www.shapeways.com/product/3ZUVDSYQJ/d33-regular-edition?awc=6920_1485629505_6f4401f18fe7d514752e83 8818a6a6fc&utm_source=affiliatewindow&utm_medium=affiliate&utm_campaign=affiliate)

A d43 is possible theoretically...If you're into cylindrical dice. (https://www.reddit.com/r/AskAnEngineer/comments/5qiht7/a_43_sided_dice/dd0gaf1/?st=iyhs28a9&sh=d120f563)