Balanced factotum?

[retaliation08]

So my latest character (barbarian/crusader lockdown) suffered 10 int and wis damage due to a critical hit from an enemy (dm uses ADnD roll charts for 1s and 20s).

Anyway, I am looking into making a factotum without iaijutsu focus. I am also looking for alternatives to the imperious command synergy. I would like the character to be decent in combat but not overpowered. The rest of the party is 2 fighters, swashbuckler and dragon shaman. The campaign is low magic.

ECL 5

Rolled stats:
17
16
15
14
13
10

Starting gold 450gp (dm doesn't follow wbl)

I like the cloistered cleric dip for knowledge devotion. Also the pride and luck domain abilities could save me from the DM's critical tables.

I like the fluff of a gnome factotum, but most of the builds I have involve a human for the feat and skill points. I also like the idea of the intellectual giant beast type (like beast from xmen), but not sure if I could get primordial cheese past the DM.

Speaking of human, I am not looking at able learner or chameleon.

It seems like the only other prevalent builds for factotum that I haven't ruled out are archer and tripper, although my last character was sort of a tripper.

So what character ideas do you guys have for a balanced, non iaijutsu factotum?

[GilesTheCleric]

What about warforged? I think they can pick up fortification, which should also go a long way to staving off crits.

[retaliation08]

I had not considered warforged. I would lose skill points and a feat, or two if I went with mitral body. For a feat starved class that is a big hit. Would depend on the rest of the build I guess.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Those are some fantastic rolls. Dang.

Given how low-power the rest of your party is, I wouldn't worry too much about loading up on offense. I suspect that Knowledge Devotion alone will take you most of the distance you need to go. Combine with your choice of offensive strategy (Power Attack, Improved Trip, TWF, Rapid Shot, what have you) and you'll probably be fine.

[retaliation08]

So I have a bit of a build going. The region that we are in currently is a tundra area inhabited by giant barbarians. I went that route a bit with Primordial half giant/human.

Taking cloistered cleric 1 gives me knowledge and travel devotion as bonus feats. Taking hidden talent gives me a total of 4 power points to use on expansion (basically enlarge person), which will make my powerful build even more powerful.

I am still unsure of how to use the other feats. Currently I have 2 fonts of inspiration and Combat reflexes going guisarme and spiked gauntlet. I am not in love with this, but I lack fun ideas here. Considering something to synergies with levitate/invisibility and/or an effective huge size.

Still open to ideas :)

[Troacctid]

Improved Trip, right? Seems like the natural choice.

I probably wouldn't take Travel Devotion. I think you can do better out of your domains.

Half-Giant is a race, not a template—you can't also be a human.

[retaliation08]

I tend to agree with that. I was looking for a way to use turn attempts and travel devotion seemed useful for getting in and out of combat. I also considered protection devotion for a group AC buff, luck domain for rerolling nat 1s, time domain to boost my initiative (kind of pointless since it's already the highest around). What advice do you have for domain choices?

Also I was under the impression that since it was half giant it was half something else, but I must have been mistaken. So really I only have one open feat without taking flaws.

[Particle_Man]

So I assume you don't want to spam the feat Font of Inspiration?

[Stealth Marmot]

Sounds like you need an archer in the party.

Factotums can be excellent archers, though the feat requirements often get in the way.

You will need Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, and Precise Shot, and I would get yourself ready to take Manyshot because, and this is important, As a Factotum as of level 8 you can get extra standard actions. The Manyshot feat allows you to fire 2 arrows with 1 standard action.

You MIGHT want to consider a level dip into fighter for a bonus feat or two.

I would also go Human because of the extra feat. Get Knowledge Devotion at level 3 as a feat and have at least a rank in every relevant knowledge, plus 5 ranks in a knowledge you know will come up a lot for enemies (local if you have humanoids all over the place). Then get the Collector of Stories skill trick to get +5 on the relevant rolls for ALL of the knowledges. This will make it so you get at least +1 to hit and damage on everything probably +2, and potentially +3.

Stats: 15 Str 16 Dex 14 Con 17 Int 13 Wis 10 Con

This does mean you will end up without the Font of Inspiration boons until later, but you will be able to hit incredibly hard with an arrow between A Composite longbow +2 strength bonus (+3 later), Knowledge devotion bonus damage, point blank shot bonus damage, and your potential inspiration bonus damage, you can do +9 damage from a single arrow if you get a good knowledge devotion roll, +8 for a decent one. And with Rapid shot, you can do 2 of those a round even at lower levels.

This isn't Game breaking damage, but pretty darn good in a low magic game.

Be sure to take advantage of your arcane dilettante spell for something like Magic Weapon at low levels. +1 to hit and damage on top of that.

[Flickerdart]

Improved Trip, right? Seems like the natural choice.

My favourite Factotum build dipped Monk for Decisive Strike and used Knockdown to great effect. Decisive Strike > punch someone > Snap Kick > Knockdown > Improved Trip > Snap Kick and then an AoO + Snap Kick when they try to stand up, and double damage every time. And then you can grab Carmendine Monk to base your goodies off INT.

[Troacctid]

The errata for Knockdown prevents you from using it to make an extra attack with Improved Trip, so that doesn't quite work.

[Flickerdart]

The errata for Knockdown prevents you from using it to make an extra attack with Improved Trip, so that doesn't quite work.

Really? Never seen it mentioned before.

[Troacctid]

Really? Never seen it mentioned before.
Yeah, it's in the SF errata.

p.7 Knockdown
Insert to end of Benefit:
Use of this feat cannot be combined with Improved Trip to generate an extra attack, and successful use of this feat does not grant an extra attack through the Cleave or Great Cleave feats.
Insert may into “you may make a trip attack as a free action.”
After “whenever you deal 10 or more points of damage to your opponent in melee” insert: with a single attack

[Fizban]

My advice from the factotum entry/vs chameleon thread:


All their main abilities are tied to class level. The 1/day/skill boost? Class level. Arcane Dilettante? Class level, with an even slower progression than Bard spells. Opportunistic Piety? Class level again. And all inspiration abilities draw from the same small pool.

A Chameleon needs a strong set of base abilities to combine with their smattering of class emulation. Combat focus won't do you any good if you go in with 1/2 BAB and no combat feats. They have all bad saves. Their rage and evasion are usable, but their sneak attack emulation is even worse than the Factotum's, and that's saying something.

A 5th level Factotum has: one 2nd and one 1st level spell per day, a pool of healing far larger than one would expect, and a limit of four factotum things per combat. Only 3/4 BAB and ref save. At 8th level it's little better, with one 3rd and two 2nd level spells, and 3/5 inspiration points will always be spent on the killer Cunning Surge app-you've effectively delayed your all-important Chameleon casting by 3 levels just to quicken something 1/day.

The secret is that everyone taking Font of Inspiration x1000 is missing the point trying to make the class what it's not. The Factotum isn't supposed to fill multiple roles. It's not supposed to participate in sustained combat. It's the gadget guy, the class for the guy who's more interested in always participating just a little bit rather than picking one job, the guy who wants to solve his problems with traps and misdirection and money and anything but playing an actual class with prescribed solutions, the guy who's playing the abstract game rather than the wargame. It has just enough oomph to throw one wrench of somewhat level appropriate offense without committing to anything in particular, something to fall back on if the hijinks fail. Something to use at the opportune moment when your bag of tricks isn't cutting it.

Chameleon, on the other hand, is about actually taking on multiple roles (in a supplementary capacity) for the day. It needs a solid 5 level base with enough combat to match a fighter or barbarian, enough skills to match a rogue, and then ditch that build completely to get its variable casting on without falling apart. The best Chamelon entries are actually pretty simple, just combine your favorite dips into a 5 level build. Fighter 2, Barb 2, Monk 2, Ranger 2, Swash 1, Swash 3, Rogue 1, Rogue 3, Binder 1, Binder 3, Incarnate 1-2, Totemist 2, Ninja 2-3, Warlock 1, Martial Adept 1, and of course Cleric 1 if you feel like abusing domains. Assemble the class abilities you desire, weather constant or burst use or highly variable, and line it all up.

Sticking with Factotum is actually pretty comparable to Bard in terms of magic, as long as you stay in. Arcane Dilettante (4 spells) at 9th starts to get going, with one 3rd and three 2nd you've got some ammo, less than a Bard but with no known list or spellbook to worry about, next level at 10th you go up to one 4th and three 3rd, catching up on maximum spell level available, at 15th you get a step ahead on 6th level spells. At 17th you get a 7th level spell that Bards can't even cast, and while you don't have all those low level slots (that's what magic items are for), you have six 6th level spells which the Bard can barely match.

So my advice for Factotum is: play the class the way it's meant to be played. Get a bag full of abusively underpriced gadgets and leverage them for all they're worth, manipulate situations with outside the box thinking, and punch people in the face with the perfect spell when they aren't expecting it.
I'll also note that nothing is wrong with using Iajutsu Focus as intended, as a first strike at the start of combat. Used that way it's a nice bump that thematically and mechanically compliments the factotum's other one shot combat tricks, nothing says you have to abuse it.

[Stealth Marmot]

My advice from the factotum entry/vs chameleon thread:


That looks familiar.

It doesn't entirely apply here though sine he hasn't shown any inclination towards going chameleon.

Also, he can't make use a bag full of magical doodads when it's a low magic game, at least not very well.

There is some good advice there though, since you mention that a factotum is a gadget guy and a skill monkey, he should likely focus some energy and skill points on charisma skills and trapfinding if that's an issue in the game.

The out of combat skills will probably be where this, and really ANY factotum shines.

[Zaq]

Without Iaijutsu, a Factotum's options in combat are basically down to UMD (which can get expensive, though it's as effective here as it is anywhere else), tripping (which you've already mentioned), and Handle Animal. I'm sure I don't need to tell you how effective a Factotum can be out of combat almost without even trying (okay, you have to try a little bit, but not that much), and if you're cool with that, then that's fantastic. In combat, though, it's basically Iaijutsu or those other things I mentioned.

Handle Animal, of course, can get very silly very fast if you have a permissive GM, but the GM can also shut it down very easily by choking off your access to downtime. Do you think your group would be okay with you bringing in a powerful pet or two and letting the pet do most of the dirty work?

If you've got enough resources invested in Factotum (meaning levels and Fonts of Inspiration) to gain a lot of benefit from the extra standard actions, you can look outside Factotum to find useful abilities that take standard actions, but Factotum doesn't natively provide you with that much. (That's not to say that it's not useful to have extra actions, because it totally is, but I think you get what I'm saying here.) That won't be an issue for a while if you're starting at ECL 5, but it's worth mentioning.

I know you said that it's hard to give up human (no such thing as enough skill points, after all, and no such thing as enough feats either), but if you're just looking for something to do once or twice an encounter, going dragonborn can give you a naturally scaling breath weapon that isn't embarrassingly weak. (It's not super strong without pouring a ton of resources into it, but it's noticeable, and taking Entangling Exhalation can make it have an effect for more than a single round.) If you were starting at ECL 1-3, I'd recommend going azurin and spending your bonus feat on either the Lightning Gauntlets or the Dissolving Spittle for an at-will touch attack dealing 2d6 damage, but that basically stops scaling unless you invest levels or feats into getting extra essentia, and 2d6 isn't very impressive by ECL 5 if it's all that you can do.

If you have a GM who's very comfortable with adjudicating ad-hoc situations, there can be some fun to be had with silly high levels of Sleight of Hand and Disable Device (which Brains over Brawn boosts), but it's very GM-dependent, since there aren't a ton of combat tricks you can do with SoH that are backed up by ironclad RAW. Still, if you can get away with disabling someone's belt and making their pants fall down (which would probably impose a movement penalty or a mild entangling effect) or that sort of thing, that can be a fun way of contributing to combat in a nontraditional way (but a very Factotum-esque way). There's a RAW table of sabotage effects that you can pull off with Disable Device that can be found on pg. 140 of City of Stormreach, if you have access to that book.

[Stealth Marmot]

Brains over Brawn affects Open Locks, not Disable Device. Disable Device is Int based to begin with. Minor point though, you still will likely have a good modifier.

[Zaq]

Brains over Brawn affects Open Locks, not Disable Device. Disable Device is Int based to begin with. Minor point though, you still will likely have a good modifier.

Right you are. I was more focused on Sleight of Hand. But you are indeed correct.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Honestly, I've never liked the argument that Factotum is the "dirty tricks and clever play" guy. I mean, it makes sense fluff-wise, but they're really no better at it than anyone else with UMD on their skill list. I mean, anyone can buy a bagful of alchemical items and cheap wands, and the Factotum...
Gets no special bonus for UMD, which is based on a tertiary stat.
Has a very limited ability to power up said items, with the notable-but-arguable exception of poison
Has no way to easily access said items-- no crafting (they have SLAs, not spells, so they can't craft alchemical items or make magic items without a proper caster in the party anyway), no price-reducing abilities, no craft-accelerating abilities, nothing.
Has no special ability to set traps, or create contingencies, or anything of that nature.
Has no way of pulling off dirty tricks like throwing sand in a foe's eyes or knocking their helm off without DM fiat.

Like, off the top of my head, I'd say that a Warlock is a superior items-and-minor-magic-tricks class. They have get UMD bonuses, they get crafting abilities, and their magic is more limited but can be spent much more freely. Or Artificer, though that's a whole new power level.

If I were to write a "dirty tricks and clever play" class, I'd want things like:

Retroactive purchasing, so I can pull out a vial of antivenom and go "aha, I thought this might happen and totally remembered to buy this last time we were in town!
The ability to read Contingent actions, like a spellcaster but
The ability to quickly craft mundane items, and create superior versions of things like alchemist's fire and holy water, so hitting a guy in the face with a jar of acid is viable beyond third level. Maybe some Trapsmith style special traps, too.
Something like Pathfinder's Dirty Trick (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/combat#TOC-Dirty-Trick) option, with class-based bonuses.
Ways to deploy mundane items and traps more quickly, like the 5e Rogue's Fast Hands ability but explicitly useful for things like scattering caltrops

The Factotum doesn't really support any of that.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Yeah, it's in the SF errata.

Isn't the D&DG version the more recent?

[retaliation08]

I really like the idea of a batman utility belt full of tricks, but it won't work for this character. DM does not follow WBL so my character will likely be unable to afford this style of fighting. There are rarely ever anyagic marts, and the ones we have had are not very well stocked. The availability of magic items is largely dependent on random tables.

I am considering archery but doubt I will go that route as I won't be eligible for manyshot until level 9 and would need to find more dex somewhere.

At level 4 this character is getting 3 1st level divine spells, 1 1st level arcane spell, and 1-4 manifestations per day. This is already making him pretty strong compared to the party. Maybe taking font of inspiration would be enoought to ensure decent performance in combat.

[bean illus]

Anyway, I am looking into making a factotum



My advice from the factotum entry/vs chameleon thread:

Fizban, you're point about Facto's abilities being tied to class levels: SOOOO many folks underestimate BOB. You say later 'can't have too many skills', then overlook BOB. BOB is worth about 300 skill points to an Int focused character, and it all comes in one tiny package with no resource cost whatsoever for the rest of your career.

Retaliation08, Have you looked at Warblade? It has Int focus, needs Mad, and will greatly boost combat. If you expect to play till level 10 check Facto3/Warblade7.

If you just want straight facto, i recently was pointed out (by Grod) that facto quite qualifies for Power Attack/etc. Use Cunning Insight from 1st level to stack with Str an multiply your Int bonus by 2-3 Dam for 1 Insp.

[retaliation08]

Ooohh, I didn't think about it stacking with strength for abusing power attack. Still unsure how that synergizes when PA sacrifices BaB for damage. I guess you would use inspiration to buff your attack roll with Int?

I have considered warblade actually, but the players and DM are not very knowledgeable and I felt some resentment due to my having maneuvers compared to their fighters just swinging beat sticks. If I was going to use ToB again, I would defiantly do warblade. I still will consider it.

Right now I am curious about optimizing hidden talent (4 power points if staying half giant) and turn attempts ( 5+ if half giant, more when opportunistic piety comes online) though devotion/divine feats.

Optimizing those character features would go a long way to making me feel good about this cloistered cleric, Half giant build.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Ooohh, I didn't think about it stacking with strength for abusing power attack. Still unsure how that synergizes when PA sacrifices BaB for damage. I guess you would use inspiration to buff your attack roll with Int?
I mean, it's not great, a full BAB character is definitely going to do a better job than you, but you can do mildly decent damage that way.


I have considered warblade actually, but the players and DM are not very knowledgeable and I felt some resentment due to my having maneuvers compared to their fighters just swinging beat sticks. If I was going to use ToB again, I would defiantly do warblade. I still will consider it.
Yeah, ToB has a high enough floor to be scary. You really can't have only some of the party mundanes using it.


Right now I am curious about optimizing hidden talent (4 power points if staying half giant) and turn attempts ( 5+ if half giant, more when opportunistic piety comes online) though devotion/divine feats.
Psionic Minor Creation can make a ton of poison, which you can power up with Cunning Insight.
Entangling Ectoplasm is a decent ranged touch attack debuff that never really goes out of style.
Synesthete can do weird things.
Animal Devotion can give you a Strength bonus (sacred/profane, mind you), flight or a well-scaling poison bite attack, though it's a bit pricy in terms of Turn uses.
Healing Devotion is a mediocre amount of healing, but turns on automatically if you're dropped to zero.
Law Devotion is a respectable boost to AC or attack.
Strength Devotion gives you a respectable slam attack that counts as adamantine, letting you easily punch through walls.
Sun Devotion produces "true sunlight," which is notable because it's the only thing I can think of that does that.
Water Devotion lets you summon a little elemental friend.

[Troacctid]

Water Devotion lets you summon a little elemental friend.

Not so useful for abusing turning attempts, since you can't expend them to get multiple uses per day.

[Kelb_Panthera]

If you want to drag the full power out of hidden talent, you probably ought to consider kalashtar for for your race.

1PP for every HD you have plus the 2 for hidden talent.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Not so useful for abusing turning attempts, since you can't expend them to get multiple uses per day.
What? Was it errata'd?

[Kelb_Panthera]

What? Was it errata'd?

Opportunistic piety doesn't give turn Undead uses to burn. It gives you the ability turn undead by activating it up to 5 + wis times per day. It's a subtle but important distinction.

[retaliation08]

So opportunistic piety is off the table for devotion synergy, but I will till have 3+cha turn attempts that I don't want sitting around useless when there arent undead to deal with. Opportunistic piety uses can all go to healing.

[Troacctid]

What? Was it errata'd?
Yes. You can still get multiple uses by taking the feat multiple times, but not with turning.

I guess I'm Errata Girl in this thread. :smalltongue:

[Grod_The_Giant]

Yes. You can still get multiple uses by taking the feat multiple times, but not with turning.

I guess I'm Errata Girl in this thread. :smalltongue:
Errata Girl, Errata Girl
Knows whatever Errata is,
Looks at builds,
Of any size,
Catches errors,
With her eyes.
Look out!
Here comes Errata Girl.

Is she smart?
Listen bud,
She just made your build a dud.
Can she take
Over a thread?
Take a look
Overhead.
Hey, there,
There goes Errata Girl.

[Fizban]

Honestly, I've never liked the argument that Factotum is the "dirty tricks and clever play" guy. I mean, it makes sense fluff-wise, but they're really no better at it than anyone else with UMD on their skill list. I mean, anyone can buy a bagful of alchemical items and cheap wands, and the Factotum...[/SPOILER]
But an Artificer or Warlock doesn't have all those skills and Cunning Knowledge. The Factotum isn't dirty tricks and magic items because it's good at it, it just uses dirty tricks and magic items because it has few class abilities to use in main combat.

The focus is on always being able to make up your own plans and follow through on them with skill checks right now and nearly anything off the sor/wiz list tomorrow. For the guy who refuses to take any of your prepared routes through the adventure because he sees some other path if he could just make X skill check and use Y spell right now.

[Stealth Marmot]

So opportunistic piety is off the table for devotion synergy, but I will till have 3+cha turn attempts that I don't want sitting around useless when there arent undead to deal with. Opportunistic piety uses can all go to healing.

3+Wis, not Cha. The turning rolls are charisma based, but the numbr of times you can use Opportunistic Piety is wisdom based.

The turning is actually more useful than people think. You do it at full level, unlike other classes who take a penalty, so you are on par with a cleric of the same level. Plus Knowledge (religion) is a class skill (as all skills are) so you can get the synergy bonus.

Situational? Absolutely, but if you are facing a mid-level undead boss, you can probably take care of half his skeleton/zombie/ghoul minions in one turn, possibly making them explode.

I find it funny that the Factotum is better at turning undead than the paladin in 3.5.

[Fizban]

More than that even, zombies and ghouls are hardly anything to worry about. Shadows on the other hand, now there's a disproportionately lethal threat you want an immediate mass response to at all times.

[Grod_The_Giant]

But an Artificer or Warlock doesn't have all those skills and Cunning Knowledge. The Factotum isn't dirty tricks and magic items because it's good at it, it just uses dirty tricks and magic items because it has few class abilities to use in main combat.
They don't have the out-of-combat skill flexibility, no, but they are better at "dirty tricks and items" in combat. It's a huge flaw for the Factotum; it forces you to scramble and scrounge like an NPC class trying to find something to do in a fight. I think it's somewhat disingenuous to present "dirty tricks and items" as if that's a viable combat strategy instead of a desperate attempt to do something, anything in a fight.

[Stealth Marmot]

It's a huge flaw for the Factotum; it forces you to scramble and scrounge like an NPC class trying to find something to do in a fight.

That is true, the Factotum shines immensely out of combat but is below average IN combat. But, they can usually work as some sort of melee fighter, if nothing else providing a flank. They do get martial weapons, and they can hit nearly as well as a fighter if they throw some Inspiration in.

In reality, you do need to work your combat strategy into the character, because the base class itself sure won't give you a clear and present way of helping out. It's not like a wizard who gets boom spells, fighters who get weapon specialization and a bunch of armor and hit points and onus feats, clerics who get easy healing, and rogues who can do sneak attack.

The monk has a similar problem.

Like the monk however, you are often at your best doing support actions like flanking, tumbling into the caster's position and giving them a hard time, or doing combat maneuvers where possible.

This is why feat additions like Improved Trip can give you something worthwhile to do in combat.

A Factotum also works as a backup, for your fighter or your healer. Really, the Factotum should be the person who fills whatever hole in your strategy or situation you need.

They definitely don't get the glorious position in the fight most of the time (unless they are clever), but like a bard, they can be useful without being direct.

[Grod_The_Giant]

They definitely don't get the glorious position in the fight most of the time (unless they are clever), but like a bard, they can be useful without being direct.
A Bard can contribute in much more direct ways, ones which cannot be replaced by a wand of Summon Monster 1. Never mind Dragonfire Inspiration, a Bard has enough spell slots to cast effective buffs and debuffs much more often than the Factotum.

[Zaq]

A Bard can contribute in much more direct ways, ones which cannot be replaced by a wand of Summon Monster 1. Never mind Dragonfire Inspiration, a Bard has enough spell slots to cast effective buffs and debuffs much more often than the Factotum.

I'm pretty sure we're all more or less in agreement here. The Factotum DOESN'T have a built-in combat niche (give or take Iaijutsu), and that's kind of a weakness of the class. And since skills aren't locked to any one class (depending on how you look at things), most things a Factotum does after initiative is rolled won't be entirely unique. Since we like to define classes/characters by what they can do better than other classes/characters, this isn't a place where the Factotum looks especially good. That's one reason why I'm not a huge proponent of the Factotum as the answer to every problem.

That said, even if being a secondary/support character in combat is kind of the bare minimum for competence, that doesn't make the Factotum unplayable. You just have to be aware of it going in.

[bean illus]

Fizban, you're point about Facto's abilities being tied to class levels: SOOOO many folks underestimate BOB

If you just want straight facto, i recently was pointed out (by Grod) that facto quite qualifies for Power Attack/etc. Use Cunning Insight from 1st level to stack with Str an multiply your Int bonus by 2-3 Dam for 1 Insp.


I mean, it's not great, a full BAB character is definitely going to do a better job than you, but you can do mildly decent damage that way.


I must be loony, but i think i'm about to try to correct Grod the Giant. The glitter of Facto8/11/13/19/etc tricks the eye from Facto3.

I really can't think of how a PA build could not be improved by Facto3 optimization (there, i said it. I'm sure someone will prove me wrong, promptly). Against a straight fighter all you lose to the dip is +1 BAB and a feat. Similarly with Barb the last 3 levels are just small bumps of what you already do. In return for +1 BAB you get to spam Int synergy all over the battlefield for the rest of your career. I think the key might be that you can buy/use magic to boost both Str and Dex in such a way that Facto3/PowerAttacker17 can actually outgun many PA builds. And Str/Dex are among the easiest attributes to boost, iirc, while Int is among the hardest.

I'm pretty sure that a lot of combat feats/etc are opposed checks. Bull Rush, Feint, Combat Expertise, Imp Trip, Initiative, Grapple?, Disarm? are among the SRD alone that can spam BOB synergy. That's before your Cunning Insight, or the fact that you can enlarge yourself and you have UMD. Balance? Tumble? The list of ways that +11 to your problem/attack/melee can be used is pretty close to long.

Now, i'm pretty sure that there are PA builds that do beat Facto3/martial17, but i have a hard time believing that it's by much. In fact i'd really love to see what a real pro did with Facto3/martial17. I think i'll go re-read the handbook.

[Troacctid]

Factotums mostly tend to do poorly in melee because they don't invest in Strength. If you gave your Factotum the same Strength score you'd give a typical melee dude, you'd be in much better shape. The chassis is totally adequate for fighting, even if it's not as good as classes that are specialized for it.

Of course, you have to actually invest in Strength. *shrug*

[Grod_The_Giant]

I must be loony, but i think i'm about to try to correct Grod the Giant. The glitter of Facto8/11/13/19/etc tricks the eye from Facto3.

I really can't think of how a PA build could not be improved by Facto3 optimization (there, i said it. I'm sure someone will prove me wrong, promptly). Against a straight fighter all you lose to the dip is +1 BAB and a feat. Similarly with Barb the last 3 levels are just small bumps of what you already do. In return for +1 BAB you get to spam Int synergy all over the battlefield for the rest of your career. I think the key might be that you can buy/use magic to boost both Str and Dex in such a way that Facto3/PowerAttacker17 can actually outgun many PA builds. And Str/Dex are among the easiest attributes to boost, iirc, while Int is among the hardest.

I'm pretty sure that a lot of combat feats/etc are opposed checks. Bull Rush, Feint, Combat Expertise, Imp Trip, Initiative, Grapple?, Disarm? are among the SRD alone that can spam BOB synergy. That's before your Cunning Insight, or the fact that you can enlarge yourself and you have UMD. Balance? Tumble? The list of ways that +11 to your problem/attack/melee can be used is pretty close to long.

Now, i'm pretty sure that there are PA builds that do beat Facto3/martial17, but i have a hard time believing that it's by much. In fact i'd really love to see what a real pro did with Facto3/martial17. I think i'll go re-read the handbook.
Sure; Factotum 3 is a fantastic dip for anyone who cares about Int. Warblade, for instance, or Duskblade. I don't think it's as great as all that, though; with three levels of Factotum you're only getting 3 inspiration points per encounter, and you need a decent chunk of Int to make the attack really worth it.

[Stealth Marmot]

Factotums mostly tend to do poorly in melee because they don't invest in Strength. If you gave your Factotum the same Strength score you'd give a typical melee dude, you'd be in much better shape. The chassis is totally adequate for fighting, even if it's not as good as classes that are specialized for it.

Of course, you have to actually invest in Strength. *shrug*

Or luck out like I did with stats and get nothing under a 14. (I put a 16 in strength)

You are right that a Factotum won't be a slouch in melee combat as far as damage goes, but it suffers from a lower hit die and no heavier armor proficiency verse a fighter. It is on par with a Ranger in that regard.

It's a workable class in melee to be sure, but you are going to have to invest the stats and possibly feats.

Also, a Factotum's +INT bonus damage is not multiplied by two handing your weapon, and they get shield proficiency, so they can get some good mileage out of sword and board to help their AC.

[mabriss lethe]

Definitely agreeing with everyone that the factotum works best when you have something else to couple it with. Spells/feats/maneuvers/psionics/items/race/whatever. It's a solid chassis, but pretty plain unless you decorate it yourself.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Or luck out like I did with stats and get nothing under a 14. (I put a 16 in strength)

You are right that a Factotum won't be a slouch in melee combat as far as damage goes, but it suffers from a lower hit die and no heavier armor proficiency verse a fighter. It is on par with a Ranger in that regard.

It's a workable class in melee to be sure, but you are going to have to invest the stats and possibly feats.

Also, a Factotum's +INT bonus damage is not multiplied by two handing your weapon, and they get shield proficiency, so they can get some good mileage out of sword and board to help their AC.

He was talking about using the +int to-hit as PA fuel.

[retaliation08]

3+Wis, not Cha. The turning rolls are charisma based, but the numbr of times you can use Opportunistic Piety is wisdom based.



So, because of My LA buyoff from Primordial halfgiant and my did into cloistered cleric, I won't get opportunistic piety for two levels.
I will, however, have turn attempts fromy cleric dip. Those turn attempts number 3+CHA.

My charisma will be a minimum of 14 due to rolls and template. I am still trying to figure out useful ways to use those turn attempts through divine/devotion feats.

I ran through some of the SGT with this partial build. I really liked animal devotion. Flight is really useful and +2 strength is always good too. Extra uses of knowledge devotion cost 3 turn atempts, so If I was optimizing I would would to acquire 6 or 9 total turn attempts so that I'm able to use all my resources. Either that or find a feat that uses 1-2 turns per activation.

Aside from all that I am still kinda lost on my feats aside from hidden talent (expansion). With powerful build and expansion I can get pretty big, also could stack on enlarge person I think.

Using this size to trip costs me 3 feats (combat reflexes, expertise, improved trip) to be effective, which means 2 flaws and no fonts of inspiration. Using the size to grapple only requires Improved grapple AFAIK, but tends to be less effective. Granted, I can still trip fairly well with a weapon and no improved trip feat.

Would it be decent to take hidden talent, improved grapple, and just flaw a FoI or combat reflexes? A little taste of everything seems factotumish.

[retaliation08]

He was talking about using the +int to-hit as PA fuel.

Pretty sure PA fuel is capped by BAB though, so using INT to fuel doesn't really work.

[bean illus]

Sure; Factotum 3 is a fantastic dip for anyone who cares about Int. Warblade, for instance, or Duskblade. I don't think it's as great as all that, though; with three levels of Factotum you're only getting 3 inspiration points per encounter, and you need a decent chunk of Int to make the attack really worth it.
Speaking from the 'what if' standpoint of optimization; FoI is fully available independent of Facto level. With 2 feats your up to 6 points, and unlike some character resource expenditures it refreshes in every. single. encounter. Cunning Insight only cost 1, and BOB is free. +11 3-6 times per encounter as a free action is nothing to shake a stick at.
Yes you would need an Int focused build, but again; Str/Dex are among the easiest to boost, and Int among the hardest. I stress that this is among the keys of this theory.


Or luck out like I did with stats and get nothing under a 14. (I put a 16 in strength)

You are right that a Factotum won't be a slouch in melee combat as far as damage goes, but it suffers from a lower hit die and no heavier armor proficiency verse a fighter. It is on par with a Ranger in that regard.

It's a workable class in melee to be sure, but you are going to have to invest the stats and possibly feats.

Also, a Factotum's +INT bonus damage is not multiplied by two handing your weapon, and they get shield proficiency, so they can get some good mileage out of sword and board to help their AC.

By getting Cunning insight to Attack you can break off BAB to PA, so yes it works. The two handed just comes in for your fake (magic) Str bonus.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Pretty sure PA fuel is capped by BAB though, so using INT to fuel doesn't really work.

Unless you're using Shock Trooper, you don't dump your entire base attack bonus into Power Attack. The extra points to spare are nice.

[bean illus]

Unless you're using Shock Trooper, you don't dump your entire base attack bonus into Power Attack. The extra points to spare are nice.

In such case; Power Attack, Leap Attack (jump 8 ranks? BOB for 1 rank), Pounce, Shock Trooper, BOB, and Cunning Insight,: Go first! (BOB) You add your entire BAB to Dam, and triple it while adding 2x Str, while taking it off AC instead of BAB and getting +Int+Str+item+feats/etc to hit, and adding a full attack, with which to Trip (BOB), and attack again a prone opponent, which is still PA+. Hell, if you crit (oil of bless weapon) you get to triple the Dam from that, iirc.