Monk Rogue build help

[Glenn.Goldenrod]

So I'm new to DnD 5e, I'm wanting to create a multi classed Monk/Rogue working with the Way of Shadow and the Assassin. What advice do you have for me? How much of what levels do you recommend to be viable enough to my team in Adventures League? Can I even combine these two and be useful? Is this even worth it?

[Aryjna]

Taking a few monk levels doesn't seem to have much to offer if you are going mainly rogue. If you want to have mostly monk levels, you could get 3 assassin levels for assassinate, expertise, and cunning action. I wouldn't say this is really worth it, but it is a matter of preference I suppose (By multiclassing this way you will probably lose one ability score increase and 1-2 useful monk features).

[Arkhios]

I've been thinking of a similar character, so here are my thoughts off of it.

3 levels of Assassin and never look back, I'd say. +2d6 sneak attack is quite nice already, and with the Assassinate, that's actually +4d6 for the first hit for the "free critical".

Starting with Rogue for more skills is always fun!

Assuming Adventurer's League goes up to at least 15th level (I'm not quite sure, never played due to local issues), here's a suggestion for level progression:

1.Rogue1: Expertise, Sneak Attack, Thieves' Cant
2.Monk1: Martial Arts (1d4), Unarmored Defense
3.Monk2: Ki, Unarmored Movement (+10 feet)
4.Monk3: Way of Shadows (Shadow Arts), Deflect Missiles
5.Monk4: Ability Score Improvement*, Slow Fall
6.Monk5: Extra Attack, Martial Arts (1d6), Stunning Strike
7.Rogue2: Cunning Action
8.Rogue3: Assassinate
9.Monk6: Ki-Empowered Strikes, Shadow Step, Unarmored Movement (+15 feet)
10.Monk7: Evasion, Stillness of Mind
11.Monk8: Ability Score Improvement*
12.Monk9: Unarmored Movement improvement
13.Monk10: Purity of Body, Unarmored Movement (+20 feet)
14.Monk11: Cloak of Shadows, Martial Arts (1d8)
15.Monk12: Ability Score Improvement*

16.Monk13: Tongue of the Sun and Moon
17.Monk14: Diamond Soul, Unarmored Movement (+25 feet)
18.Monk15: Timeless Body
19.Monk16: Ability Score Improvement*
20.Monk17: Martial Arts (1d10), Opportunist

*Ability Score Improvements are pretty much a matter for which your mileage may vary, so I'd rather not delve into that.


As a weapon I'd suggest using either a dagger or a shortsword, because both are finesse weapons and count as monk weapons, and thus they benefit from Martial Arts die. For the first 5 levels shortsword is a bit better, but once you reach 5th Monk level (at 6th character level, which is still decent enough) I'd suggest swapping to the dagger, because with Martial Arts, the damage die for your dagger would be 1d6, and you can also throw a dagger if your target is a flying bastard.

As for my thoughts of whether it can be done or if it's worth it, well, see the above and decide for yourself. But in my opinion, yes. It can be done, and it's worth it. If nothing more then only for the flavor itself.

My character will primarily use shortswords, which I've reflavored as Katar (https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/f5/Ornamental_katar.jpg/175px-Ornamental_katar.jpg) (which are blades used to punch rather than slice, and are too clumsy to be thrown, which makes a shortsword appropriate, imho). I guess you could say that my inspiration comes from Assassin (Diablo 2: Lord of Destruction) (http://vignette1.wikia.nocookie.net/diablo/images/e/e9/Assassin_Artwork.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20080828194105).

[Lombra]

Rogue 1/Monk X is all you really need if you want to be a good monk, expertise athletics and acrobatics comes to mind in order to get the complete feeling of a martial artist. As a monk your goal is to exploit the enemies' defenses with your mobility, if you want to play a rogue probably monk doesn't give you much, but you still can roleplay a thief while playing a monk!

[Specter]

3 levels of Assassinas suggested. Expertise Stealth, obviously. Grab the Alert feat ASAP (to crit enemies on surprise, you need to beat them at initiative). Variant Human, Wood Elf and Ghostwise Halfling are your best bets for race. That's pretty much it.

[Arkhios]

3 levels of Assassinas suggested. Expertise Stealth, obviously. Grab the Alert feat ASAP (to crit enemies on surprise, you need to beat them at initiative). Variant Human, Wood Elf and Ghostwise Halfling are your best bets for race. That's pretty much it.

I'd second the Stealth Expertise and Alert.

My idea (above) was to be Variant Human for the ridiculous amount of skill proficiencies gained at first level (if you want even more skill proficiencies, Skilled feat would be a no-brainer :smallbiggrin:), but obviously Alert would be more optimal as the first level human bonus feat.

Or, like I did, Dual Wielder for the added AC bonus when wielding two weapons, as redundant as people might think it is.

[jaappleton]

I've had this line of thought for awhile:

Shadow Monks, flavor wise, are much better Assassins than Assassin Rogues. They run up walls, create darkness, teleport, move faster than anybody, and can easily get +10 to not only their stealth roll, but their allies as well.

Assassin really has two useful features it's whole career, it's lv3 and lv17 abilities. The Assassin benefits in the middle? Terrible. Outright terrible.

Unless you're starting at 17-20, don't go more than 3 levels in Assassin, IMO.

An alternative you may want to consider is Swashbuckler. It still gets you a little bit of Sneak Attack dice and gets you the best part of the Mobile feat without actually using your ASI.

The Assassin benefit is once per fight. Once. And you have to surprise them, which can be a loose interpretation.
The Swashbuckler benefit would come into play more often, I think. You're trying to be an Assassin type character, it doesn't mean you have to adhere to any Archetype. Think of it as weaving through enemies and dodging them as you chase after your target.

[Aryjna]

3 levels of Assassinas suggested. Expertise Stealth, obviously. Grab the Alert feat ASAP (to crit enemies on surprise, you need to beat them at initiative). Variant Human, Wood Elf and Ghostwise Halfling are your best bets for race. That's pretty much it.

You don't need to beat them at initiative for that. Assassinate says that you crit if the target is surprised. Surprised targets cannot take a turn in the first round. But it is good to have high initiative because assassinate also gives you advantage on targets that haven't taken a turn yet. That applies during the surprise round, and in cases where you have not surprised the enemy but have a higher initiative, or for your second turn in cases where you have surprised the enemy while also having higher initiative.

In any case, I don't think it is worth it to take alert just to have a higher chance for advantage once per encounter.

[coredump]

You don't need to beat them at initiative for that. Assassinate says that you crit if the target is surprised. Surprised targets cannot take a turn in the first round. But it is good to have high initiative because assassinate also gives you advantage on targets that haven't taken a turn yet. That applies during the surprise round, and in cases where you have not surprised the enemy but have a higher initiative, or for your second turn in cases where you have surprised the enemy while also having higher initiative.

In any case, I don't think it is worth it to take alert just to have a higher chance for advantage once per encounter.

To get the Auto-crit you need to meet two criteria
1) The DM determines that the target is Surprised by *everyone* in your party
2) You attack *before* the target's init step. Once he has 'missed' his turn, he is no longer Surprised. (but you would still get Advantage.

[coredump]

Assassin really has two useful features it's whole career, it's lv3 and lv17 abilities. The Assassin benefits in the middle? Terrible. Outright terrible.

Unless you're starting at 17-20, don't go more than 3 levels in Assassin, IMO.
Assassin's are still rogues, Assassins get useful features at 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th, 7th, 8th, 9th, 10th, 11th, 12th,.....

My Archer Assassin will end up with 11-15 levels of Assassin

The reason some of the Assassin specific features are not great, is because the level 3 and 17 ones can be awesome. Surprise doesn't happen a lot, but it can be game changing, and the ability to almost always get Advantage (and thus Sneak Attack) on round 1, is plenty helpful on a regular basis.

[jaappleton]

Assassin's are still rogues, Assassins get useful features at 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th, 7th, 8th, 9th, 10th, 11th, 12th,.....

My Archer Assassin will end up with 11-15 levels of Assassin

The reason some of the Assassin specific features are not great, is because the level 3 and 17 ones can be awesome. Surprise doesn't happen a lot, but it can be game changing, and the ability to almost always get Advantage (and thus Sneak Attack) on round 1, is plenty helpful on a regular basis.

To that I say, for the majority of your career as an adventurer, beyond the first round of combat, you're a base Rogue. Base. And that's not to say Rogues are bad; On the contrary, I love the base Rogue class. It's awesome. Evasion, Uncanny Dodge, so many skills and expertise! But I believe my point stands.

It's not to say the Assassin features are bad. Just that many people tend to overstate them. They fall in love with the numbers of the burst damage without thinking of how often you can miss (Rolling a 7 and a 2 happens, even with advantage, and it sucks, especially when you have Surprise), or that it really only works under certain conditions.

[Glenn.Goldenrod]

So thank you for all the advice!
One last question. Does my Sneak Attack work this way..
Attack with Short Sword*Finesse*
I have my fighter confronting it as well so I would add my 1d6 Sneak Attack to that.
Then I have My unarmed attack to add to that which is NOT a finesse.
So I could be doing potentially 1d6+1d6+1d4? Is that right? Not including fury of blows.

[Specter]

You don't need to beat them at initiative for that. Assassinate says that you crit if the target is surprised. Surprised targets cannot take a turn in the first round. But it is good to have high initiative because assassinate also gives you advantage on targets that haven't taken a turn yet. That applies during the surprise round, and in cases where you have not surprised the enemy but have a higher initiative, or for your second turn in cases where you have surprised the enemy while also having higher initiative.

In any case, I don't think it is worth it to take alert just to have a higher chance for advantage once per encounter.

This has been clarified by Jeremy Crawford. Someone who already went through their surprise turn is no longer surprised. So if your target takes 15 in init and you take 10, he's no longer surprised by the time you attack him (so no crits). Another reason why a ranger dip is fantastic for assassins, advantage on init rolls.

[Aryjna]

This has been clarified by Jeremy Crawford. Someone who already went through their surprise turn is no longer surprised. So if your target takes 15 in init and you take 10, he's no longer surprised by the time you attack him (so no crits). Another reason why a ranger dip is fantastic for assassins, advantage on init rolls.

In the way it is worded under assassinate, the critical is unrelated to the advantage that you get from attacking someone who hasn't taken a turn. It would be completely counter-intuitive if you are required to have a higher initiative on top of surprising your opponent.

It is possible that he just made a mistake, when making that clarification. Apparently it is not the first time. I was told that an answer was given in sage advice that was contradictory to the errata (regarding the sentinel feat applying only for opponents 5 feet from you rather than to opponents in your reach), in which case the person answering in sage advice made a mistake. I did not bother to check for the sage advice quote to confirm that though.

I think the same may be the case here, but then again maybe not.

If it is as you say, then I think the assassin archetype is a bad choice for anyone playing a rogue. It is already underwhelming even with the assumption that you always crit during the surprise round.

[coredump]

In the way it is worded under assassinate, the critical is unrelated to the advantage that you get from attacking someone who hasn't taken a turn. It would be completely counter-intuitive if you are required to have a higher initiative on top of surprising your opponent.
Yes, they are unrelated to each other..... but they both interact with initiative order.

A target is Surprised only until it gets to its turn on the init order. It then doesn't get to act, but is no longer Surprised.

Thus Party attacks, Target is Surprised.
Fighter rolled 18, goes first
Target rolled 16, can't do anything, but is now no longer Surprised
Rogue rolled 12, No Auto Crit because no Surprise. Still Advantage because Target has not taken a turn yet.




It is possible that he just made a mistake, when making that clarification. Apparently it is not the first time. I was told that an answer was given in sage advice that was contradictory to the errata (regarding the sentinel feat applying only for opponents 5 feet from you rather than to opponents in your reach), in which case the person answering in sage advice made a mistake. I did not bother to check for the sage advice quote to confirm that though. You have the order backwards. He made a ruling on the tweet, based on what the rules said at the time. The Errata *changed* the rules to what they were meant to be.


If it is as you say, then I think the assassin archetype is a bad choice for anyone playing a rogue. It is already underwhelming even with the assumption that you always crit during the surprise round.This may be your confusion, technically there is no 'Surprise Round', a target is Surprised until its would get its turn during the first round, then it is no longer Surprised.

Making sure the Rogue will almost always get his Sneak Attack dice on the first round of combat is pretty huge. Otherwise you get tired waiting for the slow people to get into melee with your target.

[Aryjna]

This may be your confusion, technically there is no 'Surprise Round', a target is Surprised until its would get its turn during the first round, then it is no longer Surprised.

Making sure the Rogue will almost always get his Sneak Attack dice on the first round of combat is pretty huge. Otherwise you get tired waiting for the slow people to get into melee with your target.

If there is no surprise round that would make assassinate not work on someone that rolled a higher initiative as said above, which makes one wonder what is the point of the assassin in the first place.

Making sure a rogue gets his sneak attack is far from huge, given that sneak attack damage averages what a barbarian, fighter, monk, etc. can do in one round as soon as they have more than 1 attack, and that he can most probably sneak attack anyway even without assassinate. Certainly not huge enough to justify choosing assassin over a different rogue archetype, in my opinion.

[coredump]

If there is no surprise round that would make assassinate not work on someone that rolled a higher initiative as said above, which makes one wonder what is the point of the assassin in the first place.
Incorrect. There is not Surprise Round. A target can be Surprised during the first round of combat. That Surprise lasts until his initiative step, not for the entire round.


Making sure a rogue gets his sneak attack is far from huge, given that sneak attack damage averages what a barbarian, fighter, monk, etc. can do in one round as soon as they have more than 1 attack, and that he can most probably sneak attack anyway even without assassinate. Certainly not huge enough to justify choosing assassin over a different rogue archetype, in my opinion.
7th level with long bow against AC 17
Straight, 50% chance to do D8+4 damage (4 pts ave)
Advantage, 75% chance to do D8+4D6+4 damage (17 pts ave)

Seems like a pretty big boost... and that can apply to each combat, and if you get surprise, you get the auto crit for the first round *and* advantage for the first *two* rounds.

My assassin loves it, because he gets 2-3 attacks, and they all get adv. Really helps with sharpshooter hitting.

But hey, I am giving up bonus action Sleight of hand and a slow stealth boost..... game changers there...

[Aryjna]

Incorrect. There is not Surprise Round. A target can be Surprised during the first round of combat. That Surprise lasts until his initiative step, not for the entire round.

I did not say there is a surprise round in this sentence, but you are responding as if I did.



7th level with long bow against AC 17
Straight, 50% chance to do D8+4 damage (4 pts ave)
Advantage, 75% chance to do D8+4D6+4 damage (17 pts ave)

Seems like a pretty big boost... and that can apply to each combat, and if you get surprise, you get the auto crit for the first round *and* advantage for the first *two* rounds.

My assassin loves it, because he gets 2-3 attacks, and they all get adv. Really helps with sharpshooter hitting.

But hey, I am giving up bonus action Sleight of hand and a slow stealth boost..... game changers there...

You are describing the difference between a sneak attack and a non-sneak attack as if non-assassin rogues cannot use sneak attack all the time anyway.

[djreynolds]

I think swashbuckler/open hand would very cool with shortsword, rakish audacity and fancyfoot work would save you on KI

But even shadow monk and swashbuckler might provide you more than assassin, surprise is really DM dependent.

[Arkhios]

I came to switch the Assassin bit from my build for Swashbuckler due to the rather adequate points given here. Surprise is indeed very situational, and you get a lot more from Rakish Audacity and Fancy Footwork. If you have what it takes (good rolls and/or appropriate race) you could even benefit from the Cha to Initiative part. Probably not much, but a bonus is a bonus, right? And it's not like you'd lose anything either.

The selling argument however was definitely the thought of wading through the crowd in a frantic pursuit of your target. Very Assassin's Creed -like (when the controls (=acrobatics/athletics check) fail you and you accidentally fall a few feet off your target, or something equally ridiculous) :smallbiggrin:

[Contrast]

So thank you for all the advice!
One last question. Does my Sneak Attack work this way..
Attack with Short Sword*Finesse*
I have my fighter confronting it as well so I would add my 1d6 Sneak Attack to that.
Then I have My unarmed attack to add to that which is NOT a finesse.
So I could be doing potentially 1d6+1d6+1d4? Is that right? Not including fury of blows.

You have the option of replacing your fist or monk weapon damage with your martial arts damage die. So if you're using a short sword nothing is different until level 11 - it would be 1d4(martial)+1d6(sneak attack) or 1d6(short sword)+1d6(sneak attack), so obviously you'd just use the short sword damage die.

You can however use your bonus action to make a separate attack with your fist. So you would do 1d6+1d6+stat mod and then another attack with 1d4+stat mod. For a theoretical total of 2d6+1d4+2*(mod) if both attacks hit and you're getting sneak attack.

As a reminder, you only ever get sneak attack damage once a turn (though if you attack in someone elses turn by making an opportunity attack for instance you can get another sneak attack in).

[JellyPooga]

Arcane Trickster instead of Assassin might be worth the investment; having the option of dropping a Fog Cloud for hasty retreats and Greenflame Blade isn't exactly stealthy but looks cool!:smallbiggrin: Minor Illusion and Disguise Self are both great tools for an assassin too.

[Arkhios]

Arcane Trickster instead of Assassin might be worth the investment; having the option of dropping a Fog Cloud for hasty retreats and Greenflame Blade isn't exactly stealthy but looks cool!:smallbiggrin: Minor Illusion and Disguise Self are both great tools for an assassin too.

Not bad idea. I think I saw this addressed somewhere but could you make an unarmed strike with BB/GFB? Because THAT would be seriously cool! °__°

[coredump]

I did not say there is a surprise round in this sentence, but you are responding as if I did.

WTF?
You: "...with the assumption that you always crit during the surprise round."
Me: "This may be your confusion, technically there is no 'Surprise Round'"
You: "If there is no surprise round that would make assassinate not work..."
Me: "There is no Surprise Round."
You: "I did not say there is a surprise round...."

Me: WUT??!!??



You are describing the difference between a sneak attack and a non-sneak attack as if non-assassin rogues cannot use sneak attack all the time anyway.You don't 'always' get them. Only if you have advantage, or if an ally is nearby. Often times there is no ally next to the target during the first round, so getting advantage via Assassinate lets you cause SA damage. Now, if your DM always has the bad guys within easy range and no obstacles.... that is different.


I came to switch the Assassin bit from my build for Swashbuckler due to the rather adequate points given here. Surprise is indeed very situational, and you get a lot more from Rakish Audacity and Fancy Footwork. If you have what it takes (good rolls and/or appropriate race) you could even benefit from the Cha to Initiative part. Probably not much, but a bonus is a bonus, right? And it's not like you'd lose anything either.

The selling argument however was definitely the thought of wading through the crowd in a frantic pursuit of your target. Very Assassin's Creed -like (when the controls (=acrobatics/athletics check) fail you and you accidentally fall a few feet off your target, or something equally ridiculous) :smallbiggrin:Swashbuckler is a good class... particularly if you are melee with two weapons or have some other use for your bonus action. (like Martial arts or Flurry)


Not bad idea. I think I saw this addressed somewhere but could you make an unarmed strike with BB/GFB? Because THAT would be seriously cool! °__°You can't use UAS with GFB/BB because they both require an attack "with a weapon". But you can use a monk weapon, and if it was finesse you would get SA damage also.
What you won't get, is your martial arts bonus attack, nor be able to Flurry; since both of those require the Attack Action.

[Arkhios]

You can't use UAS with GFB/BB because they both require an attack "with a weapon". But you can use a monk weapon, and if it was finesse you would get SA damage also.
What you won't get, is your martial arts bonus attack, nor be able to Flurry; since both of those require the Attack Action.

That's just lame. Unarmed strike is still considered a melee weapon attack, so technically it wouldn't break anything if you could. The point being that since you're still using your Action to cast a spell (cantrip) and therefore wouldn't get MA or FoB attack anyway.

[Fishyninja]

That's just lame. Unarmed strike is still considered a melee weapon attack, so technically it wouldn't break anything if you could. The point being that since you're still using your Action to cast a spell (cantrip) and therefore wouldn't get MA or FoB attack anyway.

I was trying to convince my DM to let me take Magic Initatie for Boomin Blade but said no (due to this rule). Stupid Rules not letting my Monk having an explosive stick :smalltongue:

[Aryjna]

WTF?
You: "...with the assumption that you always crit during the surprise round."
Me: "This may be your confusion, technically there is no 'Surprise Round'"
You: "If there is no surprise round that would make assassinate not work..."
Me: "There is no Surprise Round."
You: "I did not say there is a surprise round...."

Me: WUT??!!??


You read half of what I wrote. In this case you missed the 'in this sentence' part. I said it before that I thought there is a surprise round, but not in that sentence. In that sentence, I was commenting on assassinate, based on the new information that there is no surprise round.

[Lombra]

I've had this line of thought for awhile:

Shadow Monks, flavor wise, are much better Assassins than Assassin Rogues. They run up walls, create darkness, teleport, move faster than anybody, and can easily get +10 to not only their stealth roll, but their allies as well.

Assassin really has two useful features it's whole career, it's lv3 and lv17 abilities. The Assassin benefits in the middle? Terrible. Outright terrible.

Unless you're starting at 17-20, don't go more than 3 levels in Assassin, IMO.

An alternative you may want to consider is Swashbuckler. It still gets you a little bit of Sneak Attack dice and gets you the best part of the Mobile feat without actually using your ASI.

The Assassin benefit is once per fight. Once. And you have to surprise them, which can be a loose interpretation.
The Swashbuckler benefit would come into play more often, I think. You're trying to be an Assassin type character, it doesn't mean you have to adhere to any Archetype. Think of it as weaving through enemies and dodging them as you chase after your target.

I think that you don't understand what's an assassin's job. Assassins kill important figures when they less expect it. Assassins aren't made for canonic D&D fights, they are made to infiltrate that castle, kill the target and get out as if nothing happened. All the assassin's features are super useful to get in the knife-range of a VIP disguised as a butler or even as his wife.

[jaappleton]

I think that you don't understand what's an assassin's job. Assassins kill important figures when they less expect it. Assassins aren't made for canonic D&D fights, they are made to infiltrate that castle, kill the target and get out as if nothing happened. All the assassin's features are super useful to get in the knife-range of a VIP disguised as a butler or even as his wife.

I understand quite well what an Assassin's job is. And the Assassin archetype is pretty poor at it, prior to their capstone feature.

How often does the lv9 feature come into play? A week of downtime for something that can be replicated with the Charlatan background? The fact that a background feature is superior to a lv9 class feature is simply sad. Not to mention the fact that it requires an entire week of downtime. Hope there's nothing at all urgent going on! Or be completely outshined by simply being a Changeling? How often do you have three hours to track a target to utilize their lv13 feature? Three hours observing the target, without ever arising suspicion. I'm sure that comes into play constantly, doesn't it?

Both of those really come in handy during any sort of a dungeon crawl, don't they? And nearly every campaign has you delve into a dungeon now and then and we all know it.

Meanwhile, the Shadow Monk can generate +10 to everyones stealth checks. Silence enemy spellcasters. Heck, silence a guard outside the doorway while you're attacking your mark; The guard is considered deaf and will have no reason to enter the room since he's not hearing screams for help. Teleport between shadows. Shadows, which, you can create with Darkness. Become outright invisible while they're at it. And the Minor Illusion cantrip to create noises to distract guards while you're infiltrating.

Oh, the target it up in the tower? Let me just run up the side of the building. You have fun sneaking through the entire castle, while I run up the entire tower in less than six seconds and bypass every guard.

And let's say both characters get caught in their respective scenarios. To think the Assassin is going to outrun his enemies faster than a Shadow Monk is simply ridiculous, if it comes down to that. Especially since Monks laugh at falling damage, have ridiculous speed, and teleportation. Maybe the Assassin can spend three hours observing the guard that caught him to get his speech patterns down?

[Yagyujubei]

warlock is a much better dip for a WotS monk if thats what you want the bulk of your levels to be in. Hex synergizes really well with h2h and flurry of blows (and eventually stunning strike), and devils sight works amazingly well with the darkness spell (although many ppl will say if screws with your party). Not to mention the warlock spell slots free up your Ki for FoB/SS rather than casting pass darkness spells.

IMHO a small rogue dip doesnt really work well with WotS monk because cunning action is at odds with flurry of blows and shadow step because they all work on bonus actions. this is one of the huge design flaws of WotS in my opinion....granted this is also somewhat true with Hex but at least with Hex you only have to spend your bonus action on it once per target.

[jaappleton]

warlock is a much better dip for a WotS monk if thats what you want the bulk of your levels to be in. Hex synergizes really well with h2h and flurry of blows (and eventually stunning strike), and devils sight works amazingly well with the darkness spell (although many ppl will say if screws with your party). Not to mention the warlock spell slots free up your Ki for FoB/SS rather than casting pass darkness spells.

IMHO a small rogue dip doesnt really work well with WotS monk because cunning action is at odds with flurry of blows and shadow step because they all work on bonus actions. this is one of the huge design flaws of WotS in my opinion....granted this is also somewhat true with Hex but at least with Hex you only have to spend your bonus action on it once per target.

Agreed. Plus, the famous Devil's Sight / Darkness combination, and it's all short-rest dependent. You'd think missing Ki by spending 2 levels in Warlock would hurt your damage output, since less Ki = Less Flurry, but you more than make up for it with Hex.

[Lombra]

I understand quite well what an Assassin's job is. And the Assassin archetype is pretty poor at it, prior to their capstone feature.

How often does the lv9 feature come into play? A week of downtime for something that can be replicated with the Charlatan background? The fact that a background feature is superior to a lv9 class feature is simply sad. Not to mention the fact that it requires an entire week of downtime. Hope there's nothing at all urgent going on! Or be completely outshined by simply being a Changeling? How often do you have three hours to track a target to utilize their lv13 feature? Three hours observing the target, without ever arising suspicion. I'm sure that comes into play constantly, doesn't it?

Both of those really come in handy during any sort of a dungeon crawl, don't they? And nearly every campaign has you delve into a dungeon now and then and we all know it.

Meanwhile, the Shadow Monk can generate +10 to everyones stealth checks. Silence enemy spellcasters. Heck, silence a guard outside the doorway while you're attacking your mark; The guard is considered deaf and will have no reason to enter the room since he's not hearing screams for help. Teleport between shadows. Shadows, which, you can create with Darkness. Become outright invisible while they're at it. And the Minor Illusion cantrip to create noises to distract guards while you're infiltrating.

Oh, the target it up in the tower? Let me just run up the side of the building. You have fun sneaking through the entire castle, while I run up the entire tower in less than six seconds and bypass every guard.

And let's say both characters get caught in their respective scenarios. To think the Assassin is going to outrun his enemies faster than a Shadow Monk is simply ridiculous, if it comes down to that. Especially since Monks laugh at falling damage, have ridiculous speed, and teleportation. Maybe the Assassin can spend three hours observing the guard that caught him to get his speech patterns down?

Yep, you definately don't understand what an assassin does. An assassin isn' t just a murderer. An assassin plays like the agent from the hitman games. You disguise among the people close to the VIP and then you take him out, at high levels you can even take it's place! The archetype isn't made for a dungeon-crawl, it is a campaign and DM dependant archetype, but that's true for many classes. You don't play an assassin if you want to just hack and slash monsters in fights.

The assassin is just a berter spy than a charlatan shadow monk, and while the shadow monk can reach much more quickly the room of the target, a properly disguised assassin can gather much more informations on the target and can effortlessly reach it. Kings don't sleep with the windows of the bedroom open.

A monk will outrun a chasing guard, but an assassin's much more better at just not getting chased. Just because you don't like how to play a class it doesn't mean that the class is poorly designed.

Anyways this is digressing a lot from the OP's topic.

[jaappleton]

Yep, you definately don't understand what an assassin does.

Just because you don't like how to play a class it doesn't mean that the class is poorly designed.

Emphasis mine.

It's a piss-poor archetype. That's all there is to it.

[jaappleton]

Lombra,

To be clear: I firmly believe you're romanticizing the notion of a proper Assassin. I'm firmly in the "In actual play" camp.

If I was coming off as flippant, it wasn't my intent. But I think that's where we diverge on this issue.

[Arkhios]

If you're looking for a master of disguise with numerous false identities, look no further: Charlatan + Actor feat. No need to wait for a 9th level feature which does same things, albeit "a bit" slower than the feat (and background as previously stated)

[Lombra]

Lombra,

To be clear: I firmly believe you're romanticizing the notion of a proper Assassin. I'm firmly in the "In actual play" camp.

If I was coming off as flippant, it wasn't my intent. But I think that's where we diverge on this issue.

Yeah I guess we see the class in two different ways. I never played games where assassins slaughter enemies during epic battles, so maybe that's why I don't get your point. I've been kind of rough sorry, it's nice to see people that don't loose their mind because of divergent opinions.

[Dr. Cliché]

Yeah I guess we see the class in two different ways. I never played games where assassins slaughter enemies during epic battles, so maybe that's why I don't get your point.

I think his point is that, whilst that's not how assassins usually roll, it is how D&D usually rolls.

Whilst spending a week to fabricate a false identity or hours studying someone to mimic their speech and movement might be more realistic, I'm not sure it really fits in with the high fantasy of D&D.

[jaappleton]

I think his point is that, whilst that's not how assassins usually roll, it is how D&D usually rolls.

Whilst spending a week to fabricate a false identity or hours studying someone to mimic their speech and movement might be more realistic, I'm not sure it really fits in with the high fantasy of D&D.

Yeah, I'm very much in the camp of "Whatever the plan is, it's likely going to go wrong". Whether its a bad roll, or something you didn't anticipate... Heck, it can be the DM hates your plan and wants to railroad you. It happens.

[Citan]

So I'm new to DnD 5e, I'm wanting to create a multi classed Monk/Rogue working with the Way of Shadow and the Assassin. What advice do you have for me? How much of what levels do you recommend to be viable enough to my team in Adventures League? Can I even combine these two and be useful? Is this even worth it?

Hi!
you have several ways to go at it.
However, I would daresay that you...
- Never want to go less than Rogue 3 for first archetype feature (Assassinate).
- Never want to go less than Monk 5 (better die for unarmed attacks, Extra Attack, Stunning Strike).

After that, I'd say...
Shadow Monk 17 / Assassin 3: you are nearly a full Monk, just with Expertise and Assassinate.
Shadow Monk 15 / Assassin 5: you get up to Uncanny Dodge from Rogue, while still being a very solid Monk.
Shadow Monk 14 / Assassin 6: extra Expertise from Rogue.

I wouldnt favor builds with Assassin as the main class because I usually manage to play sneaky characters without specific archetype features.
If you particularly like those features or want to be the main skills handler of your party though, Assassin 11 / Shadow Monk 9 can be another solid choice.


How often does the lv9 feature come into play? A week of downtime for something that can be replicated with the Charlatan background? The fact that a background feature is superior to a lv9 class feature is simply sad. Not to mention the fact that it requires an entire week of downtime. Hope there's nothing at all urgent going on! Or be completely outshined by simply being a Changeling? How often do you have three hours to track a target to utilize their lv13 feature? Three hours observing the target, without ever arising suspicion. I'm sure that comes into play constantly, doesn't it?

If you're looking for a master of disguise with numerous false identities, look no further: Charlatan + Actor feat. No need to wait for a 9th level feature which does same things, albeit "a bit" slower than the feat (and background as previously stated)
Wait, wut? o.O

Guys, you are quite off the plate here.
Charlatan gives you ONE, and ONE ONLY, false identity. It may be enough for your run-of-the-mill deceptions, but not necessarily one good for your campaign objective.
And Actor is indeed a great feat that is arguably as good or better as Assassin's Impostor as far as talking goes, but you would have to spend a feat "just" for that, and it won't hold for any situation where you are just required to show written proofs of identity (with or without suspicion). Nor does it cover the cases where you want to write off documents as if you were the person, which only Impostor covers.

You may not like the Assassin archetype because it's too much campaign/DM dependent. Fair enough, several classes suffer of this (hello "classic" Ranger).

But as long as the campaign / DM gives enough "room" for you to make use of this, it's extremely good, because it's much more adaptative than Charlatan, and much more "solid" than just Actor, since you can switch/combine Infiltration and Impostor as needed to use an existing identity or create a tailored, brand new one.

In fact, when you think about it, the Assassin can, in its own way, be as world-changing as a Wizard using high-level, reality altering spells, depending on who to impersonate and what objective to follow.