Monster placement in a sandbox

[Yora]

In my specific case I'll be running the campaign with B/X, but I think there should be very little difference in how these things work in AD&D.

I only have experience with the Basic levels of 1st to 3rd but never ran adventures beyond that and I think almost all of my players will have much less experience with the system than that. To avoid total party wipes that nobody had seen coming, I want to not give the players directions to dungeons that are hopelessly lethal to the party.

How do I populate a sandbox with monsters in a way that gives inexperienced players a chance to keep their characters alive by playing smart? I could keep everything to really easy creatures but I think that would send the completely wrong message and make the players worry less about picking their fights carefully.

[Lo'Tek]

Send them on a quest to somewhere were easy monsters are.
Drop a hint like "don't travel to far in the mountains: the giants that live there are extremly dangerous"
(Note that the real hint is: the local population might know what lives in the region)
Tell them about things their characters might know, but the players do not. "You have heard stories about these creatures: They are called Ankhegs by the locals and their acid spit can disolve a grown man with ease"
Use size or weirdness as an indicator: Kobold easy, Ogre hard, Stormgiant impossible.
Don't be an ass: If they know they can handle some skeletons, don't have a lich in the middle of the next skeleton group and then tell them, after the party wipe, they should have run when that skeleton startet casting spells.
Be vocal about the fact that not everything they meet is designed as a combat encounter for them.
Give advanced warning: "In front of that cave lies a corpse, who wears what looks like the armor of the kings guard, but the platemail is torn to pieces"

But remember: most players do not enjoy running away every time.

[Mutazoia]

This is why I prefer to make my encounters and major campaign details "modular", so they can be dropped in as necessary, no matter what random direction the players decide to wander off in. Make them generic enough that youc an fill in fluff details when the encounter is needed (change a forrest village into a mountain village, etc) and plop 'em down where ever and when ever you need. You still give your players a sandbox to run around in, while at the same time, you get to drive your campaign plot forward.

As for random monster placement....um...try using the random monster tables?

[Knaight]

Local populations are likely to have some idea of what's around them, really major things are likely to have an effect on surrounding areas, and then there's always the option of using terrain type heavily - maybe the seas are exceptionally dangerous, known to be full of massive sea monsters, and just generally nastier than land. When the only fishing villages are on inland lakes, there's no sea trade, and every culture has stories about death from the sea for those who came too close even the dullest players will catch on.

[WbtE]

There's a good article about this in last year's & Magazine, issue 13 (http://www.and-mag.com/magazine-13-character-races/). The basic idea is to set up a megadungeon as the centre of the campaign and scale its threats so that the more dangerous stuff is in the depths and the easier challenges are closer to the surface, with the odd "wildcard" to make things fresh.

[LibraryOgre]

There's a good reason why the monsters close to "civilized" territory tend to be weak or few... if they're not, then they'd preclude settlement. Between two settlements, you'd have some areas that might get rougher, but if there's a tribe of trolls living a day's journey from a shepherding village, why are there any sheep left?

[Yora]

I am mostly concerned about lethality. Having the monsters make sense in the places where they are doesn't appear to be much of a problem. But I really want to avoid having the characters get eaten as they step through the gate or the players deciding that they have to go somewhere else to gain a couple of levels before they have any hope of making progress.

Picking up on the mention of megadungeon levels, one thing that might work to some degree is to make groups of linked dungeons in which each next and harder dungeon only becomes reachable once the players have mastered the previous dungeon. Either by having the dungeons hold keys that open the next one or maps that show where they are hidden.
If the party becomes powerful enough without getting to the bottom of an easier dungeon, you can still give them the key or map through other means.

[LibraryOgre]

A map might be more reasonable. An idea I have played with is calculating the XP value of the party, then applying that to the XP value of an encounter as a barometer of difficulty.

[thirdkingdom]

A map might be more reasonable. An idea I have played with is calculating the XP value of the party, then applying that to the XP value of an encounter as a barometer of difficulty.

I don't have it handy at the moment, but the Rules Cyclopedia has a formula similar to this.

~~~~~~

Yora, I know you've got ACKS, so I'll use that as a reference. If you're going to randomly populate the hexes I would draw three roughly concentric arcs or circles that define the areas that will be traveled at different levels. The innermost circle, closest towards the starting area, will also be filled with the weakest monsters. Use the "Inhabited" column on the Wandering Monster Table to populate these hexes. If you're concerned about threats here just throw out any results that seem overpowered, or modify as needed. Perhaps you roll twice for the population of each humanoid tribe and take the lower of the two results.


The second and third circles will be for higher level adventurers, and I would populate those as normal. These would also have the higher level dungeons, generally.

[BigBadHarve]

My perspective is from AD&D 1st and 2nd Editions, so I don't know how they lay it out in B/X... but the concept is definitely easily translated.

For sandbox world building, I tend to adhere to the frequencies of the monsters (and animals) without worrying about matching the level of the group.

My charts are by Common, Uncommon, Rare and Very Rare, and of course terrain. Most common creatures are normal animals of varying variety. (Having your team be surprised by a family of skunks can be more fun than a war party of orcs. :D )

I don't concern myself with the power level of the encounters, it's just assumed that players will come across scenarios too powerful for them and must flee, or negotiate, surrender etc. On the other side, many encounters will be easy for them. It's not necessary to create a level-balanced encounter each time, nor is it necessary to make them 'combat' encounters. These are random events to break up the days of adventuring.

Just make sure the monster/animal is logical to the terrain, and let the rest take care of itself.

[thirdkingdom]

My perspective is from AD&D 1st and 2nd Editions, so I don't know how they lay it out in B/X... but the concept is definitely easily translated.

For sandbox world building, I tend to adhere to the frequencies of the monsters (and animals) without worrying about matching the level of the group.

My charts are by Common, Uncommon, Rare and Very Rare, and of course terrain. Most common creatures are normal animals of varying variety. (Having your team be surprised by a family of skunks can be more fun than a war party of orcs. :D )

I don't concern myself with the power level of the encounters, it's just assumed that players will come across scenarios too powerful for them and must flee, or negotiate, surrender etc. On the other side, many encounters will be easy for them. It's not necessary to create a level-balanced encounter each time, nor is it necessary to make them 'combat' encounters. These are random events to break up the days of adventuring.

Just make sure the monster/animal is logical to the terrain, and let the rest take care of itself.

B/X doesn't do monster frequency.

EDIT: Although it is super simple to port stuff over. This site, BTW, has all of the 2e monsters online (http://lomion.de/cmm/_contents.php), to check frequency of appearance.

[golentan]

You can have the bigger, more deadly things less concerned with people unless poked or bothered, on the grounds that people are no threat to it and/or are no more than a light snack which aren't worth the trouble of peeling back the armor to eat (for animalistic critters).

For intelligent monsters, why not have them mark their territory. It's safe to explore the caves (mostly) but if you come across a mindflayer "work of art" hanging from the wall with luminous paint, it miiiiiiight be wise to go no further. You can establish some of the threat with gear quality and quantity: If someone's midden contains a bunch of armor pieces from a group the PCs know to be powerful, resourceful and qualified, that is a threat that PCs are likely to pick up on in my experience.

And, as already mentioned, have the local townsfolk aware of the local threats and encourage the PCs to ask. If there are high level dangers, well, the townsfolk have been surviving here long enough to build a community, they must know something about the murder-habits of the local Vampire/Great Wyrm/Orc Tribes/Brain Eating Fungi/Giant Beast With No Name. Don't go near the Potter's Field after dark, bring a spare horse when traveling through Witbone Canyon, don't worry about the Giant Spiders, if you don't bother them they won't bother you.

[Jay R]

To avoid total party wipes that nobody had seen coming, I want to not give the players directions to dungeons that are hopelessly lethal to the party.

The first level of any dungeon should be fairly easy. They are the denizens of the underworld that got pushed up to the margins by the stronger monsters.


How do I populate a sandbox with monsters in a way that gives inexperienced players a chance to keep their characters alive by playing smart? I could keep everything to really easy creatures but I think that would send the completely wrong message and make the players worry less about picking their fights carefully.

In the wilderness, there should be clues. If they see claw marks ten feet high, or splintered ogre bones lying around, then they should realize that they are in the wrong place.

Some clues come from the villagers who say, "Don't go that way - the dragon is active these days." But do not count on all your players picking up the clues.

In 1975 or 1976, there was a guy that several of us would not adventure with any longer; he was unsafe. Eventually, he was running his own party, all by himself. His most famed moment was with a party of first levels (because nobody survived to 2nd level).

DM: Going along the road, you see a sign saying, "Danger! Cockatrice Valley."
PC: We enter the Valley.
DM: At the Valley's entrance, there is another sign: "Turn Back! Cockatrice Valley."
PC. We keep going.
DM. The valley is filled with many stone statues, all looking up.
PC: We keep going.
DM: You hear large bodies moving around the bend.
PC: We run around the bend.
DM: You hear a heavy flapping above you.
PC: We stop and look up.

Later the DM bemoaned the fact that he was trying to keep this player's characters alive, and he couldn't do it.

[Yora]

If you're going to randomly populate the hexes I would draw three roughly concentric arcs or circles that define the areas that will be traveled at different levels. The innermost circle, closest towards the starting area, will also be filled with the weakest monsters.
This seems like a very good approach that should work for me very well. Though I think that actual circles around a starting point is more of an idealized hypothetical setup. In practice it is probably only necessary to make sure that any paths the players might take leads them along a gradual increase in opposition strength. When you're in an area in which the top level of dungeons is mostly Dungon Level 2 there shouldn't be any dungeons that start with Dungeon Level 6 right next to them. To get to dungeons that start with DL6 they should first pass through an area in which the dungeons start mostly at DL5.

I also like the idea of using visual changes in environments or environmental obstacles that form natural borders. If the party is having difficulty to keep up with the threats in a forest they will probably not want to press on into the swamp that lies on the other side. Or you could have locals say that they never cross a certain river because it's too dangerous on the other side.


I don't concern myself with the power level of the encounters, it's just assumed that players will come across scenarios too powerful for them and must flee, or negotiate, surrender etc. On the other side, many encounters will be easy for them. It's not necessary to create a level-balanced encounter each time, nor is it necessary to make them 'combat' encounters.

That's one of the big drawing points of oldschool rules for me. (Right next to there being so much fewer of them to keep track of.) Adventure dynamics change quite drastically once you don't have to beat everything to "progress" and in turn the GM does not have to limit the creatures that are encountered to what the party is guaranteed to defeat.

[thirdkingdom]

This seems like a very good approach that should work for me very well. Though I think that actual circles around a starting point is more of an idealized hypothetical setup. In practice it is probably only necessary to make sure that any paths the players might take leads them along a gradual increase in opposition strength. When you're in an area in which the top level of dungeons is mostly Dungon Level 2 there shouldn't be any dungeons that start with Dungeon Level 6 right next to them. To get to dungeons that start with DL6 they should first pass through an area in which the dungeons start mostly at DL5.

I also like the idea of using visual changes in environments or environmental obstacles that form natural borders. If the party is having difficulty to keep up with the threats in a forest they will probably not want to press on into the swamp that lies on the other side. Or you could have locals say that they never cross a certain river because it's too dangerous on the other side.



That's one of the big drawing points of oldschool rules for me. (Right next to there being so much fewer of them to keep track of.) Adventure dynamics change quite drastically once you don't have to beat everything to "progress" and in turn the GM does not have to limit the creatures that are encountered to what the party is guaranteed to defeat.

Well, smart B/X players are going to avoid the swamp (and the mountains, too) because of two things: frequency of encounters *and* the types of encounters. For instance, encounters in a civilized area occur on a 1 in 6 chance (per day), and 3 of the 8 possible encounter types are with Men (there's a respective 1 in 8 chance for the following: humanoid, flyer, animal, insect and dragon). Encounters in a swamp, however, on have a 3 in 6 chance of occurring, at the following frequencies: 2 in 8 Undead and 1 in 8 of the following: Men, Humanoid, swimmer, insect, dragon, flyer.

Plus, several of the categories have different tables for the different terrain types. If you're in the mountains (with the same encounter frequency as a swamp) and encounter a humanoid, there's a 5 in 12 chance that humanoid is going to be a giant! In inhabited areas, however, there's a 4 in 12 chance that a humanoid encounter is going to be with a "friendly" race (elf, gnome, halfling or dwarf).

[Yora]

I discovered that the Numbers Encountered values in the monster descriptions are not based on how the creatures are living in groups but appear to be meant as a tool to balance encounters towards an average threat level. For creatures with the same number of HD but different damage and AC, those who are more capable always appear in slightly smaller numbers.
Which I think also explains why monsters are more numerous in the wilderness (even lairs are five times larger). It's not because it makes sense for them to be in larger groups but because encounters are much more rare between rests and parties can afford to spend more resources on each. Which in turn makes it sensible to start travelling through wilderness only at 4th level because the low hp of low levels make combat more unpredictable.

But I am wondering how robust these numbers really are in practice. Is it something I would have to consider when creating my new custom monsters from scratch or does it not matter in practice?

[Jay R]

When I don't know how powerful a given monster type is, relative to the PCs, I will try to have the first few charge from around a corner, or out from the trees, so I can set the number when I see how it goes.

[Knaight]

The first level of any dungeon should be fairly easy. They are the denizens of the underworld that got pushed up to the margins by the stronger monsters.

This works for some dungeons. There's plenty of room for other dungeons which wouldn't fit this pattern though. For instance, you might have an underworld hold where the first level is their active guard post from surface invasions, with the top and the bottom of the dungeon area being by far the most dangerous. You might have something akin to a bunker occupied by surface creatures for defense. Heck, you might have a crashed space ship, where the entire thing is protected by active anti-intruder defenses.

[Jay R]

This works for some dungeons. There's plenty of room for other dungeons which wouldn't fit this pattern though. For instance, you might have an underworld hold where the first level is their active guard post from surface invasions, with the top and the bottom of the dungeon area being by far the most dangerous. You might have something akin to a bunker occupied by surface creatures for defense. Heck, you might have a crashed space ship, where the entire thing is protected by active anti-intruder defenses.

We're talking about a game of Basic/Expert D&D.

I'll withdraw the emphasized word "any", and admit I went a little overboard. But for the game under discussion, the point is still mostly true.

From the Basic Dungeon Masters Rulebook, page 46:

"The levels are usually built vertically - one above the other. In most dungeons, the deeper you go, the more dangerous the adventure becomes."
Later on it discusses other patterns.

"When you design a dungeon, you may use any method. It is recommended that you make simple vertical dungeons first, with more dangerous levels before the first level. You may find other types in published modules, and you may construct more elaborate types after practice"

Since we were specifically asked for "a way that gives inexperienced players a chance to keep their characters alive by playing smart," I still recommend the dungeon style I mentioned and the book says to start with over the ones you've suggested.

[Yora]

I think it's generally a pretty good approach to making dungeons. It's still the same principle if you build a tower or a pyramid where the bottom level is level 1 and the top level the highest one. Or later in the campaign you can have dungeons that start with the 3rd level followed by the 4th, 5th, and so on.
You still have the effect of the party encountering a gradual increase of threat that allows them to turn back when they are struggling and not accidentally running into a series of very dangerous encounters.

[Knaight]

We're talking about a game of Basic/Expert D&D.

I'll withdraw the emphasized word "any", and admit I went a little overboard. But for the game under discussion, the point is still mostly true.

From the Basic Dungeon Masters Rulebook, page 46:

"The levels are usually built vertically - one above the other. In most dungeons, the deeper you go, the more dangerous the adventure becomes."
Later on it discusses other patterns.

"When you design a dungeon, you may use any method. It is recommended that you make simple vertical dungeons first, with more dangerous levels before the first level. You may find other types in published modules, and you may construct more elaborate types after practice"

Since we were specifically asked for "a way that gives inexperienced players a chance to keep their characters alive by playing smart," I still recommend the dungeon style I mentioned and the book says to start with over the ones you've suggested.

I'd agree as a recommendation. As a mandate, not so much - and all of my examples are within the realm of published adventures in early D&D.

[Yora]

What the rulebooks recommend and the adventures do has always been two different things with D&D.

[viking vince]

You could treat miles away from civilization as equivalent to levels in a dungeon. So, for example, if you are within one mile of a city / village you only encounter 1st level monsters, but then up to two miles away and suddenly 2nd level monsters are a possibility, etc.

[LibraryOgre]

Heh. On the "concentric circles of hexes" option...

Hex 0 is your town.

Hex 1 is Basic

Hex 2 is Expert

Hex 3 is Companion

Hex 4 is Master

:smallbiggrin:

[thirdkingdom]

Heh. On the "concentric circles of hexes" option...

Hex 0 is your town.

Hex 1 is Basic

Hex 2 is Expert

Hex 3 is Companion

Hex 4 is Master

:smallbiggrin:

Hex i is Immortal.

[ArgentumRegio]

How do I populate a sandbox with monsters in a way that gives inexperienced players a chance to keep their characters alive by playing smart?

Wow! THIS is a topic I've expended much brain-juice upon over the years. This is a problem I've long faced in building my game world - it is a D&D game world run on a virtual tabletop using Neverwinter Nights. PCs there are NOT ALWAYS playing with a DM present, so TPK could happen way too easy.

My sandbox works like this.

PCs arrive in the city aboard a ship that has seen high seas and is damaged to such extent it will not travel again this season; leaving the PCs in a strange city unplanned. I do warn players to be willing to flee from overwhelming danger. For me sandbox does not mean 'nerfed to safe levels' it means 'room to move and build what you want'.

All encounters are somewhat foreshadowed - the city is a classic D&D style city, where dangers fill the streets and doubly so by night; PCs are advised to NOT travel alone by night in the city. Encounters become more dangerous and more frequent as the PC travels beyond the city, ever greater with distance.

Not too far from the city is a goblin lair. Population pressures from below keep the goblins in this lair on their toes. They like to hunt the roadway by night not far from the lair (yes any monster you find in this world is within travel distance of their lair most of the time). The goblins arrive at the surface by a path the monsters know as 'the garden gate' - it is not the exclusive property of the goblins either, three tribes share access by a mutual agreement that sometimes gets tossed. The troglodytes only come out on the nights of the new moon, and the goblins clear the garden gate of their people at those times, when the trogs are allowed hunting in the dark they are less trouble for the goblin tribe. Also a tribe of bugbears uses the path at will, goblins resisting their passage are enslaved or killed. Usually, PCs encounter goblins hunting the surface by night along the roadside... goblins are stupid but they are not suicidal idiots; they seek numeric advantage over their prey. A clever PC will either face them with numbers or stealth-tactic-assault them in smaller groups. The fact that they are hunting the road is a clue that the lair must be nearby.

There is an inn, just down the road from the main city at a crossroads. On occasion an old drunk is found here - he laments the days when the trolls took over his family farm. The troll lair is accessed via a portal which manifests at intervals on the old farm - hence the monsters are not always there.

Human bandits also hunt the roadway, showing up at various locations on different nights. PCs encountering the bandits are wise to use tactics and terrain to best advantage or just FLEE if overwhelming numbers are present.

Monsters are foreshadowed, if you are near the ogre village, you'll likely find a small hunting party of ogres before you arrive at the village.

Most of the encounters in and near the city are low level, more dangerous encounters are scattered at greater distances from the urban start point. Out there in the world now are manticores, aboleth, slaadi, lizardman, assassin vines, stirges, ogres, giants, vampires, dao, and more. Each have their own lair, and their own 'habits of daily life' recorded, PCs can (wisely) learn by observing, and piece together improved strategies by gaining such lore.

Key to the design here is (except by night) the city streets have only minor threats in them, and outside the city, dangers increase as you grow more distant. PCs and PARTIES tend to find 'how far they can go' and then operate within that range until they improve.

TRY to keep a variety of easy/med/hard encounters in each zone ringing your start point so that there is not a super obvious line in the sand where the PCs know 'bad stuff on that side' - always blur the lines.