Prestigitation and Storytelling

[RSP]

Wanted to get an opinion from the community on this:

What mechanical bonus would you give (if any) to a Bard who decided to take Prestigitation as a Cantrip as part of the RP for the character, who loves to use it while performing (for illusions, sounds, "pops," etc)?

I feel Advantage would be too much (and step on the toes of Enhance Ability, a 2nd level spell), but there should be something to denote the difference between a storyteller who can make use of Prestigitation and one who can't (or doesn't).

In a way, Prestigitation is the storytelling equivalent of special effects and should probably have an in game effect when used as such.

Thanks.

[Coffee_Dragon]

I wouldn't give any bonus because that's not what the spell does. Also I'm not convinced storytelling is generally enhanced by special effects. Others will disagree I'm sure.

[RSP]

Just to clarify, I'm thinking of the 1st ability of the spell mostly:

You create an instantaneous, harmless sensory effect, such as a shower of sparks, a puff of wind, faint musical notes, or an odd odor.

As I see it, the storyteller could make great use of any of these throughout a show: they could have the faint sound of the echoing of the giant's footsteps through a cave, a shower of sparks at the right moment to simulate the Wizard's fireball, or even a fart followed by an odd odor if doing satire. Want to show the crowd how smelly the Prince is in the rival city? Here's your odor. How beautiful is the princess' diamond? Here's a copy of it that lasts 12 seconds (long enough to get some ooohhhs and aaaahhhs).

A lot could be accomplished in setting tone if done right. One would still need to be a good storyteller to know when to use these things and to time it right, however, if that's the case, I feel the character with these abilities would put on a better show than a character without these abilities, all else being equal.

[LudicSavant]

I would be okay with straight up giving Advantage, provided the player described a sufficiently efficacious usage of the ability for the specific situation (rather than simply "I cast Prestidigitation to enhance my story").


As I see it, the storyteller could make great use of any of these throughout a show: they could have the faint sound of the echoing of the giant's footsteps through a cave, a shower of sparks at the right moment to simulate the Wizard's fireball, or even a fart followed by an odd odor if doing satire. Want to show the crowd how smelly the Prince is in the rival city? Here's your odor. How beautiful is the princess' diamond? Here's a copy of it that lasts 12 seconds (long enough to get some ooohhhs and aaaahhhs).

Like so.

I wouldn't worry about stepping on the toes of Enhance Ability, which grants advantage to all ability checks with a given attribute (and is already outperformed by things like Enlarge/Reduce when it comes to specific applications). In fact, I would go so far as to caution against the past-editions ideology that a cantrip shouldn't be able to outperform a low-level spell in any circumstances, given that many cantrips already do so (especially when counting free level scaling). This goes doubly when getting the benefit out of the cantrip requires skillful or creative use.

[RSP]

I think you and my autocorrect are going to disagree on the spelling, though I think you have the right of it.

My first thought was to give it Advantage as well, but it just doesn't feel right to make it the same effect that a 2nd level spell (Enhance Ability) would give, especially since in game the effects would be totally different.

Enhance Ability makes you more Charismatic, actually making one better at a certain ability; while Prestidigitation punctuates existing ability, as I see it playing out.

I'm also hesitant to give it Advantage as it becomes too easy to just say "I perform and use Prestidigitation" every time for free Advantage. It would become a waste of time to make a character describe how they use it to punctuate their performance every time they want to have their character put on a show; though I appreciate the added RP, the other players are doing nothing while the Bard is planning out a performance to get a free room.

I appreciate the replies; thanks for the advice.

[Spectre9000]

In 5e, the creative use of this spell, would lower the DC of the check, but the bard would have to explain how exactly they intertwine the sensory effects in with their performance in a meaningful way. Sam Riegal on Critical Role always comes up with a song and things to RP him being a bard. Granted he's a professional actor, so I wouldn't expect his level of RP, but it can be done in such way that isn't tedious if your player is playing a bard for RP reasons and not Min/Max reasons.

[Contrast]

I would probably let it give advantage depending on the situation. The benefit of enhance ability is that you get it no matter what whereas sometimes making a noise or flashy display just ain't going to cut it.

Trying to entertain a group of small children? Sure have advantage.

Try to entertain a court of nobles? They've seen this stuff before and aren't impressed particularly. Depending on exactly what you do they may even consider it tacky and give you disadvantage.

Trying to wow a crowded tavern full of drunk patrons and spray sparks to imitate a dragons breath? Sure have advantage but roll an easy dex check. If failed you blew sparks into someones hair and he takes offence.

As others have said the important thing is getting them to describe exactly what they're trying to do so you can gauge if it would actually have an impact in that situation (for example a group of children who recently escaped a great fire are unlikely to react well to a sudden burst of flame to illustrate a part of a story).

If you're uncomfortable with giving out free advantage another option might be to give it no mechanical benefit but occasionally give out inspiration for working it in.

[War_lord]

I'd give advantage for using Prestidigitation creatively, for example if the party are trying to track someone through a crowded market and the Bard marks the target's back with a distinctive mark. But I don't think "I use prestidigitation" should be an automatic advantage on a social check unless you're dealing with kids or primitives.

[Coffee_Dragon]

As I see it, the storyteller could make great use of any of these throughout a show: they could have the faint sound of the echoing of the giant's footsteps through a cave, a shower of sparks at the right moment to simulate the Wizard's fireball, or even a fart followed by an odd odor if doing satire.


Well, besides the question of practical application of Prestidigitation in this case, effects and embellishments aren't really foreign to mundane performances. If my PCs were to flip out and start up a travelling show and say, "We're going to tell tales and have wobbly metal sheets for thunder and revolving canvasses for rain and moving backgrounds", I'm not going to go, "Wow, I'm going to give you advantage on your Performance rolls because you didn't say you'd stand still on the stage and recite in a monotone", but rather, "Cool, roll to see how well you pull it off" (assuming there was call for a roll). And if they said, "We're going to do magical tricks and lightning bolt the druid at the end", I'd similarly have them roll to see if they made it work.

"Spellcasters don't need boosting" and "Prestidigitation doesn't need utility added to it" are two of my hobby-horses on here.

[SaintRidley]

Well, besides the question of practical application of Prestidigitation in this case, effects and embellishments aren't really foreign to mundane performances. If my PCs were to flip out and start up a travelling show and say, "We're going to tell tales and have wobbly metal sheets for thunder and revolving canvasses for rain and moving backgrounds", I'm not going to go, "Wow, I'm going to give you advantage on your Performance rolls because you didn't say you'd stand still on the stage and recite in a monotone", but rather, "Cool, roll to see how well you pull it off" (assuming there was call for a roll). And if they said, "We're going to do magical tricks and lightning bolt the druid at the end", I'd similarly have them roll to see if they made it work.

"Spellcasters don't need boosting" and "Prestidigitation doesn't need utility added to it" are two of my hobby-horses on here.

Damn it, now I really want to play a game where the PCs just start a traveling show and the Wizard and Druid are in charge of special effects.

[BiPolar]

My Bard almost always uses Minor Illusion during performances and sometimes brings out the big gun of Major Image to really make the story come to life. I've gotten advantage often when I do Major Image :) But I mostly do it because it's awesome.

[RSP]

Coffee, I feel like you're kind of proving my point that there should be a benefit to using Prestidigitation or Minor Illusion when Performing.

The examples you gave would go perfectly with the Help action: that is, one person is performing, while other characters do the effects for the show. This fits the system perfectly, RAW, and would have the mechanical effect of giving the Performer Advantage.

Now, let's say a Bard is a one man show and doesn't have helping stage hands but does have Enhance Ability, Prestidigitation and Minor Illusion. That one man show would be better (resource wise) than a performer using assistance and mundane effects.

Minor Illusion can give lots of auditory or visual effects (up to a min which should be plenty for effect), and Prestidigitation adds pop and flash. Add in Enhance Ability and the Bard should be putting on a memorable performance.

More over, if a PC is using 2nd level spell slots and chose their limited Cantrip selection based on purely RP reasons, I'm going to err on the side of boosting their checks. Putting on 2 one-hour shows today? You just used 2 of your 3 2nd level slots for the day. I tend to commend a PC who dedicates limited resources to RPing.

[Biggstick]

Absolutely fine to give the PC advantage on the use of Prestidigitation. As others have pointed out, Enhance Ability gives advantage on all checks without requiring the casting of another spell. This means you can cast it on yourself before speaking with someone and they'd have no idea that you have been magically enhanced to be more charming (Charisma checks). You can cast it on yourself 10 minutes before competing in some sort of physical contest in which your concentration wouldn't break (Strength or Dexterity checks). Basically, you can cast Enhance Ability on yourself prior to engaging in some sort of ability check in which you don't necessarily want someone to know that your checks will be better due to magical enhancement.

Others have pointed out having the PC describe how exactly they're using Prestidigitation every time. I don't fully agree with this. I think you can have the Player go into the full description if they're somewhere new or different. Have they ever told a story (in game) at a Noble's court? If not, have them go through the description. Have they ever told a story (in game) at a local orphanage? If not, have them go through the description. Basically, if they haven't told a story or done some sort of performance in that type of location before, have them provide a the lengthy and exact way they're doing their performance. Otherwise, simply allowing the Player and the party the convenience of saying, "I tell a fantastic story and utilize Prestidigitation," allows for the party to make new progress in your game.

[Coffee_Dragon]

I guess it depends on where you set the baseline. If tricks, preparations and ensemble work give advantage, who in your world are performing without advantage? (Not that random nobodies make rolls, but if they did.) Do performers in general look upon spellcasters with envy and/or contempt because they can breeze through it with less effort and talent using haXX0rz fX? Or is magic, even novice stuff, so rare that it makes no dent in the profession in the big picture? Is it desirable that Prestidigitation has an unwritten line that reads "advantage to checks that benefit from minor special effects" on top of everything?

[BiPolar]

I guess it depends on where you set the baseline. If tricks, preparations and ensemble work give advantage, who in your world are performing without advantage? (Not that random nobodies make rolls, but if they did.) Do performers in general look upon spellcasters with envy and/or contempt because they can breeze through it with less effort and talent using haXX0rz fX? Or is magic, even novice stuff, so rare that it makes no dent in the profession in the big picture? Is it desirable that Prestidigitation has an unwritten line that reads "advantage to checks that benefit from minor special effects" on top of everything?

Given how much extra we pay for 3d imax...

[Hrugner]

Advantage is a pretty lazy way to handle it, but quick and effective. If your game isn't focused around these performances then advantage is fine. You could also give them disadvantage for trying to do something tricky, working the spells into their act, but give them greater benefit from the success if they pull it off. You could also use minor illusion as an amp to hit a larger audience, or thaumaturgy just to be heard further over the crowd. Spell augmented performances should work, but not always the same way.

[Sigreid]

Short answer is sure, why not? Good for minor illusion as well.

Longer answer is, how often do you find yourself actually having to roll your performance check? I generally put that under the category of things I assume you can do reliably and require no check unless there's something special about the circumstance. Like maybe you're trying to be entertaining enough the king decides not to cut your head off after all.

[BillyBobShorton]

I'd give a similar, but milder, mechanic akin to the guidance Cantrip. Let him roll a d3 to add to his performance checks, maybe a d4 if it's extra creative. No more than that.

It's Gandalf farting sparklers to the delight of children as the wagon rolls through the Shire.... not Jimi Hendrix on LSD bringing the Montery Pop audience to a state of utter awe.

[quinron]

I think advantage is a good mechanic for it, but I understand if you don't want to automatically give advantage on every Perform check that involves magic - otherwise he'll breeze through them every time.

Personally, I'd have him make a spellcasting check (CHA + prof. bonus, in this case), with the DC raised or lowered depending on the power of the magic he used and on how accustomed the audience is to magic; so maybe a DC 5 for a prestidigitation to impress some farm kids, but DC 22 for using major image to impress the heads of the local Bard College (normally a Very Hard 25 since they're used to illusion magic, -3 for using a 3rd-level spell). If he succeeds on that check, he gets advantage on the Perform check.

That's just off the top of my head. It's an extra roll he has to make, and it may get a bit perfunctory sometimes, but I think it's a good way to model the fact that though the magic is specifically being used to enhance the performance, the skill set that each requires isn't necessarily tied into the other - being a terrific bardic magician doesn't automatically make you a terrific storyteller, but it can make it much easier.