+2 Charisma or Resilient Wisdom first for sorcerer?

[Dalebert]

My first ASI was +2 cha for my yuan ti sorcerer so it's 18. He has one level of bard. At level 9, should I go ahead and finish capping his charisma or take Resilient Wisdom which would bump my wis to 14?

Maxing charisma seems the obvious choice BUT the fact I have magic resistance as a yuan-ti makes substantially boosting my wisdom saves appealing since a lot of very bad magical effects are wisdom saves. Getting that at 9 would brace me for annoying tier 3 wisdom saves. Magic resistance is nice any time, but it just feels a lot more powerful with +6 (and higher later) vs. just +1. Even with advantage, I think I'll fail a lot of saves with just +1, particularly in tier 3. And for non-magic saves when I don't have advantage it's obviously better by at least +25% on my success rate.

If I take cha at 9, then Resilient Wisdom would be the next one on my list for lvl 13.

[ChubbyRain]

18 charisma will hold you over for the rest of the game, there is no real need to max a stat out to 20.

Just pick your spells, what you cast on whom, and 18 is great till very high level.

Grab Resilient Wis, wisdom saves are some nasty effects, perception is gold, and you will love the Prof+1 to your wis saves.

[Erys]

My first ASI was +2 cha for my yuan ti sorcerer so it's 18. He has one level of bard. At level 9, should I go ahead and finish capping his charisma or take Resilient Wisdom which would bump my wis to 14?

Maxing charisma seems the obvious choice BUT the fact I have magic resistance as a yuan-ti makes substantially boosting my wisdom saves appealing since a lot of very bad magical effects are wisdom saves. Getting that at 9 would brace me for annoying tier 3 wisdom saves. Magic resistance is nice any time, but it just feels a lot more powerful with +6 (and higher later) vs. just +1. Even with advantage, I think I'll fail a lot of saves with just +1, particularly in tier 3. And for non-magic saves when I don't have advantage it's obviously better by at least +25% on my success rate.

If I take cha at 9, then Resilient Wisdom would be the next one on my list for lvl 13.

I would take Res: wis first.

But that's just me. I like getting 3 good saves as early as possible, always.

[djreynolds]

A bard has heroism, good for not failing those wisdom saves like fear.

But resilient wisdom is nice. Also, see if that cleric can toss protection from evil on you when he can, as he should be able to make those saves anyhow... does compete with his spirit guardians... wizard can toss that on you also

[rooneg]

I feel like most casters who are at all interested in maintaining concentration should make their first ASI bring their casting stat to 18, then take either War Caster or Resilient CON, and only then take another ASI to get to 20 in their casting stat. If you're not planning on ever taking one of those two, taking something like Resilient WIS in that spot also seems reasonable.

[djreynolds]

That is good advice.

Also sounds crazy, but monster hunter has a once a day protection from evil.

I wonder if grabbing magic initiate to get this spell from wizard/cleric/warlock spell list is worth it. Maybe not.

But you could grab a level of warlock and get EB and protection from evil that way

[Spiriah]

I feel like most casters who are at all interested in maintaining concentration should make their first ASI bring their casting stat to 18, then take either War Caster or Resilient CON, and only then take another ASI to get to 20 in their casting stat. If you're not planning on ever taking one of those two, taking something like Resilient WIS in that spot also seems reasonable.
Sorcerer does have proficiency in Con saves already, so War Caster isn't as high-priority, IMO, though it's still a nice feat to have.

Either +2 Cha or Resilient seems like a fine pick – I'd probably gravitate towards the Cha increase if you use a lot of save-based spells, as a higher DC is nice to have, but otherwise Resilient (Wis) seems slightly more appealing.

[djreynolds]

What about a level in warlock, get EB and protection from evil?

It's an option, does eat up concentration but you could twin it, good verse those BBEG likely to be fiends and aberrations

[Dalebert]

A bard has heroism, good for not failing those wisdom saves like fear.

What the heckfire are you talking about? Is this some feature that bards eventually get if they go Valor or something? I'm quite certain that a level 1 bard doesn't have anything of the sort. Bard was a one level dip for me. I might eventually go 2nd or 3rd, but not until lvl 17 sorcerer.


I wonder if grabbing magic initiate to get this spell from wizard/cleric/warlock spell list is worth it. Maybe not.

But you could grab a level of warlock and get EB and protection from evil that way

First off, a sorcerer can already learn PfE. Also, I will never ever waste a feat on Magic Initiate. I'm really baffled at how popular that feat seems to be with a lot of people here. It seems extremely weak for the opportunity cost considering how few and far between feats are for most classes. If they allowed you to actually learn the spell and be able to cast it with your slots, I would deem it an okay instead of terribly subpar feat but even then it would be fairly unlikely I'd take it. I would almost always see a level 1 dip as much more bang for the buck than giving up a precious feat that I only get once every four levels, thus merely delaying my feats by 1 level.

I also don't see Protection from Evil as a reasonable alternative to wisdom save proficiency. It's a spell that can be very useful in the right context but it's still pretty contextual--it prevents charmed, frightened, or possessed by only certain types of creatures IF you have it up before that happens and IF someone can afford to be wasting their concentration on it. For instance, consider a succubus or cambion demon who can charm you. They're always disguised and you don't typically know to PfE until it's already too late. Afterward, it only gives advantage which I will already have vs. any magic effect. And it won't help with most saves anyway, like any spellcaster using Hypnotic Patter or Polymorph and other save or suck spells, for instance.

[ChubbyRain]

I feel like most casters who are at all interested in maintaining concentration should make their first ASI bring their casting stat to 18, then take either War Caster or Resilient CON, and only then take another ASI to get to 20 in their casting stat. If you're not planning on ever taking one of those two, taking something like Resilient WIS in that spot also seems reasonable.

Having a 20 in their casting stat is overrated.

When it is "needed" your primary threats are foing to have either ridiculous saves that they can't fail a certain type OR pitiful saves that +1 DC won't matter over the course if a campaign.

If you pick your spells with even a bit of care you won't have to worry about creatures passing saves all that much.

Keeping spells going is the more important feature. Con saves is worth more than advantage, but advantage is nice. Warcaster is definitely worth more than a +1 DC.

With the system Math, you really never *need* to go past 18 on your main stat.

[Tanarii]

I feel like most casters who are at all interested in maintaining concentration should make their first ASI bring their casting stat to 18, then take either War Caster or Resilient CON, and only then take another ASI to get to 20 in their casting stat. If you're not planning on ever taking one of those two, taking something like Resilient WIS in that spot also seems reasonable.The only problem with this is you can't take the Resilient Feat twice. You have to choose between Resilient (Con) and Resilient (Wis).

Of course, most casters have one or the other of those two saves already. For example, a Sorc already has Con saving throws. So they're already pretty set in the concentration department. It's really just Bards, Rangers, and ATs this dilemma for Resilient.

Edit: Also I agree with others that getting a 20 primary stat is overrated. Hell, even an 18 isn't that necessary.

[JAL_1138]

What the heckfire are you talking about? Is this some feature that bards eventually get if they go Valor or something? I'm quite certain that a level 1 bard doesn't have anything of the sort. Bard was a one level dip for me. I might eventually go 2nd or 3rd, but not until lvl 17 sorcerer.


Heroism is a first-level Bard spell that grants immunity from fear effects and temp HP equal to your casting mod to one creature. Each spell level above 1st allows to you to affect an additional ally. It doesn't actually help on any saving throws, just fear effects. (Extremely useful against creatures with Frightful Presence like dragons, though. Keeps your melee fighters from being forced to flee and being unable to move closer.)

[rooneg]

The only problem with this is you can't take the Resilient Feat twice. You have to choose between Resilient (Con) and Resilient (Wis).

Of course, most casters have one or the other of those two saves already. For example, a Sorc already has Con saving throws. So they're already pretty set in the concentration department. It's really just Bards, Rangers, and ATs this dilemma for Resilient.

Edit: Also I agree with others that getting a 20 primary stat is overrated. Hell, even an 18 isn't that necessary.

Sure, so if you've already got prof in CON your decision for the second ASI is between War Caster (i.e. "never miss a concentration check again", since advantage + prof is pretty awesome, plus other benefits) or Resilient WIS. Either seems like a totally reasonable choice.

[djreynolds]

Sorcerers do not have protection from evil on their list, I'm sorry, not my call

Heroism is a bard spell, immunity to fear not bad, if you took it.

Warlock is a good dip, Eldritch blast is awesome and protection from evil will cover the occasional fear/charm effect... other than dragons.

Resilient wisdom is fine, but even with an eventual wisdom save bonus of +8 at 17th level, failing saves versus someone like Grazzt with a DC 23 is real possibility. Even with the lucky feat see if you roll a 15.

Protection from evil is an auto pass versus those end game types spamming fear charm frighten. Will not help versus Tiamat

Obviously hold person is still an issue.

[Contrast]

Also, I will never ever waste a feat on Magic Initiate. I'm really baffled at how popular that feat seems to be with a lot of people here. It seems extremely weak for the opportunity cost considering how few and far between feats are for most classes. If they allowed you to actually learn the spell and be able to cast it with your slots, I would deem it an okay instead of terribly subpar feat but even then it would be fairly unlikely I'd take it. I would almost always see a level 1 dip as much more bang for the buck than giving up a precious feat that I only get once every four levels, thus merely delaying my feats by 1 level.

The main use I see for Magic Initiate is nothing to do with the spell you get (as you say, a level 1 spell once a day is pretty underwhelming - though arguably if there was a feat that gave you the abilities unlocked by Find Familiar I'm sure lots of people would take it :smalltongue:). The point is getting to chose additional cantrips without the cost of a level. Rogue who wants Booming Blade without delaying sneak attack progression? Magic Initiate. Access to guidance seems worth a feat on its own. Eldritch blast provides a decent ranged damage option which can't be disarmed to anyone with a passable charisma. Aside from that a lot of the cantrips allow you to provide magical flavour to your character without the relatively heavy investment of a level dip - want to pick up Thaumatugy with your Paladin? Magic Initiate is the most efficient way to do it.

It often won't be the optimal choice but once you've chosen a couple of feats the optimal choice often starts to get a lot less clear. That and roleplaying is often not about making the optimal choice but rather the choice which seems the most fun.

On topic, Res Wis does feel like the sensible choice in that it shores up a weakness. I'm going to play devils advocate - how many wisdom saving throws do you make per session on average? You'll gain the benefit of your boosted Cha much more frequently I imagine. Devils advocate over, take Res Wis :smallbiggrin:

[Dalebert]

I'm going to play devils advocate - how many wisdom saving throws do you make per session on average? You'll gain the benefit of your boosted Cha much more frequently I imagine. Devils advocate over, take Res Wis :smallbiggrin:

Absolutely a good point. In fact, I should have brought this up in the OP to get opinions on that. I don't know exactly. It seems very bursty. Seems like I can go entire games without a wis save. Other times it feels game-changing.

So what are folks' experiences? How often do you think a wisdom save for a sorcerer will come up? And keep in mind the level range I mentioned. This comes down to whether I take Res (wis) at 9th or at 13th. In other words, do I want it shortly before entering tier 3 or halfway into tier 3?

Rooneg, Warcaster feels a little bit wasted on casters who aren't also built for some melee and thus aren't expecting to be in position for a lot of AoOs. Having proficiency in con saves is a very high priority for a caster so I almost never wait past my 2nd ASI to make sure I have it. As was pointed out. sorcerers already have it. It's certainly an excellent combo with the SCAG melee cantrips. My sorcerer is a hang-back-and-zap guy so I don't think he will bother.

[Pex]

+2 CH speaks up.

From an efficiency standpoint, I see it as you'll be casting a lot more spells that require an opponent make a saving throw than you need to make a Wisdom save. When you use metamagic you don't want it to go to waste because the bad guy made his save. Also, some Sorcerer class abilities utilize Charisma.

[SharkForce]

+2 cha makes more of a difference the higher your saves already are. you won't feel much of a difference going from DC 15 to DC 16. there is a fairly large difference going from 18 to 19. you're probably safe to go for resilient wisdom and wait for the +2 charisma later on (though i completely disagree that +2 casting stat is never worth much for a primary spellcaster, it's actually quite significant).

[Dalebert]

With regard to +2 cha, it would raise my spell attacks and DCs (obviously) but it would also add one more bardic inspiration and allow my Careful Spells to include one more person for auto-saving. I use the Careful Web spell a lot and sometimes it's a little painful to pick which 4 of the party members (and sometimes their mounts) to auto-save and be able to melee inside the web. Hasn't been an issue with Hypnotic Patter yet. So far it's been easy enough based on positioning and 4 auto-saves not to hypnotize my party. That's because positioning only matters at the moment of casting whereas with Web, I want melee folks not in the web to be able to venture into it safely. It will also raise three skills I'm already proficient in whereas the increase in Wis will only affect skills I'm not proficient in making me go from kinda suck to suck a little less.

[djreynolds]

I like the build, its flavorful. I like the yuan-ti

I always say think it ... do it.

If you feel your defense is lacking, then fix it. And wisdom saves are the most important mental defense. Resilient wisdom gives you a better chance statistically than lucky or even advantage would, IMO. AFB but it should add +2 with wisdom of 14, and another 3-4 at this level so take it.

I think, myself mostly, we forget stuff like hold person and hypnotic wave are also wisdom saves and have the "reach" to get to blasters and archers in the back row if just to take them out of combat for a 1 minute to focus on the tanks.

So take resilient, coupled with advantage from the yuan-ti it should make these saves easier

[Dalebert]

I'm still on the fence. Here's a perspective. I feel like hitting tier 3 is when the wisdom saves might make more of a difference. At that point, I'm expecting the entire nature of the enemies to shift to more complex. I'm expecting there to be more casters, monsters with weird crowd control abilities and what-not. I'm definitely taking +2 cha and resilient wisdom as my next two ASIs (lvl 9 and 13) so it's just a case of which first. Wisdom saves have not felt crucial so far in tier 2. The question thus becomes about how tough levels 11 and 12 will be (tier 3 before my ASI) if I don't buff my wisdom save. Boosting my charisma will come up constantly. As I said, it's not just attack bonus and DCs. It's also an extra bardic inspiration a day and 5 people instead of 4 who can auto-save against my careful spells.

[djreynolds]

I have always like the yuan-ti,

I say resilient wisdom if another team member is spamming bless

But if your team really needs those spells to hit than +2 charisma. I had played a life cleric in CoS and everything went to wisdom, even when I found the Tome of Understanding, I still took wisdom to 22.

If charisma will make the party strong and you more deadly, go for charisma and hope you kill everything quickly.

[Dalebert]

In the interest of full disclosure, he is not really built to be especially deadly. He's more of a control build. He uses his abilities to enhance and protect the other characters and do crowd control.

Examples:
Careful web--keep opponents restrained or wasting actions to get unrestrained while melee can close inside the web.
Tasha's (twinnable)--crowd control two opponents
Dissonant Whispers (twinnable)--Make one or two opponents flee and take psychic dmg while also provoking AoO from meleers
Careful Hypnotic Pattern--massive crowd control

He can contribute to dmg of course; just not amazingly. He can twin cantrips and he has Lightning Bolt. *shrug*

[djreynolds]

But all of these require saves, so the higher your spell DC is probably the best