Is it bad to want to DM a session just to spite a player? [Archive]

Kymro

2017-01-27, 02:44 AM

So, first a little backstory.
The group I'm playing with is relatively new to the game, myself and the current DM being the only ones with experience. We have this one player, who makes up crazy stuff, then gets upset because he cant be 3 times as powerful as everyone else is just because he thinks whatever he made up should be viable.
I can tell our current DM is getting sick of it, so I'm thinking of taking matters into my own hands, I have a plan.

This would be the first game I ever ran, and the first bit wouldn't be that long, but I could use some pointers looking for ways to mess with him/teach him how the game is supposed to go.

So first, an emissary from a town a few days over would come find us, saying how he's heard of our deeds and needs our help. A local gang of bandits/whatever has been extorting them for money, and this time they couldn't pay, so the bandits are planning to raze their town to the ground.

It would be a 2 day/1 night journey. First day they come across some some gypsies on a cart on the road. They say they are merchants. And I have a feeling problem player might try to kill them. So I was thinking were-gypsies? If the party doesn't kill them, head were-gypsy will give them all a protection from good amulet (foreshadowing.

The night I'm having a little issue with. Can't decide between shapeshifter/will o the wisp/forest spirits that keep casting ghost sound to keep him up all night.

I have nothing for the last day, could probably use something as the party will be reaching town that night.

Now for the big battle, I was thinking about 15 little units and 3 generals for the baddies, and like 5 infantrymen for the town, plus the mayor would be something. Now, the baddies leaders will make a proposition to the party: help them destroy the town and take part in their little racket, or be destroyed.

I really hope they pick to go with the baddies, because they have no idea about the 4 paladins that will be riding over the hill on turn 5.
I have some more ideas for after this, but I think this is a good start to get some ideas, so thanks to anyone who helps out

Dragonexx

2017-01-27, 02:47 AM

Have you tried talking to him bluntly about the issue? Passive-agressively punishing someone doesn't really work well.

Kymro

2017-01-27, 02:56 AM

Have you tried talking to him bluntly about the issue? Passive-agressively punishing someone doesn't really work well.

We have tried, but he just thinks it's boring because he can't have all this crazy stuff without at least taking some sort of penalty. Only problem is he is the host, and the DM is his neighbor.

I don't plan to kill them with the paladins, hell they might even choose to do the right thing. I just want to show him some of the crazier stuff that can happen, even when you are following the rules

Ashtagon

2017-01-27, 03:13 AM

Never fix out of game problems with in game solutions. This will not end well.

John Longarrow

2017-01-27, 06:27 AM

Never fix out of game problems with in game solutions. This will not end well.

2nd to this.

If you try to do something in game to "Fix" the problem you will only see it get worse. This is coming not only from my own experience but in a lot of shared experience from others.

Much better way to deal with the problem would be to make sure they understand why their behavior is a problem first, explain how it disrupts the game second, and then to simply not play with them if they can't play as part of a group.

That they host isn't a good reason to stay. If the rest of the group agrees with you and your DM simply don't play there. Most gaming shops have open rooms available. I'd also see if someone else could host, even if for only a couple sessions.

My hope is they realize you won't tolerate their actions and begin behaving again. If that fails, well, it fails. It will how ever teach you and the rest of your group a very valuable lesson. If someone doesn't want to include you in their enjoyment just don't associate with them.

Odds are they will realize you are being serious, take the hint, and try to be a better friend. If not, is this the kind of person you really want in your life?

AnachroNinja

2017-01-27, 07:02 AM

I didn't actually read your post because the title question was enough.

Yes, you're wrong for wanting to DM a game just to spite someone. That's not constructive.

Darth Ultron

2017-01-27, 07:24 AM

It is not bad at all, but your going about it a bit the wrong way.

First off, don't effect the rest of the group. You don't want ''a group of monsters'' to attack the whole group....keep your focus on the single player.

Second, don't go by ''chance''. Don't have the target player ''maybe or not'' monster encounter with a ''maybe'' something happening. Just make it happen.

Third the best cover is to lead the player to their doom.....they will almost always go willing. Put a trapped treasure chest right in front of the character and they will open in. Just make sure to tailor it to the character/player. If they use a weapon, make the trap the magic weapon they use and so on. Though normal greed works fine.

Stealth Marmot

2017-01-27, 07:37 AM

I figured all DMs became DMs out of spite. Am I doing it wrong?

Never fix out of game problems with in game solutions. This will not end well.

This quote, oft repeated, should be on a plaque somewhere.

That way we need only point at the plaque, or in some cases throw it at someone trying to fix OOC problems with IC stuff.

Don't be a DM for revenge against your players. Be a DM for revenge against a world that spurned your genius and will FEEL YOUR WRATH THE FOOLS!

Or cause you like mapmaking. Fjords are fun.

Buufreak

2017-01-27, 09:02 AM

Kelb_Panthera

2017-01-27, 09:38 AM

To put it as succinctly as possible, the answer to your thread title's question is, "yes."

Kish

2017-01-27, 09:41 AM

So I was thinking were-gypsies?
...What the hell?

Segev

2017-01-27, 09:44 AM

Yes, it is bad to want to DM for this reason. Not only won't it be fun, but it's counterproductive.

Further, your described plan won't teach him anything. It sounds like a perfectly fine session, but I don't see how it in any way matches up with the player's problematic behavior.

You mention you've tried talking with him OOC, but he thinks his concepts should work anyway. Can you elaborate on what, precisely, he's doing or trying to do? I assume you're in D&D due to the subforum we're in. D&D has chargen rules. What is he trying to justify outside of them, if anything, and why?

Stealth Marmot

2017-01-27, 10:25 AM

...What the hell?

I think he meant that the gypsies were werewolves.

I don't THINK he meant that they were normal office workers who whenever a full moon rises hop into bright clothing and drive wagons around.

Buufreak

2017-01-27, 10:37 AM

I think he meant that the gypsies were werewolves.

I don't THINK he meant that they were normal office workers who whenever a full moon rises hop into bright clothing and drive wagons around.

Just found my next character concept.

Grod_The_Giant

2017-01-27, 11:01 AM

Yes. The answer to your question is yes.

(Also, your session won't teach anyone anything, expect perhaps that you're a jerk GM who offers false choices vis-a-vis randomly-appearing Paladins)

I think he meant that the gypsies were werewolves.

I don't THINK he meant that they were normal office workers who whenever a full moon rises hop into bright clothing and drive wagons around.
...I think I know some people like that.

Segev

2017-01-27, 11:04 AM

...I think I know some people like that.

"Were-gypsy" is deprecated. The polite term these days is "LARPer."

Aetis

2017-01-27, 11:11 AM

I can tell our current DM is getting sick of it, so I'm thinking of taking matters into my own hands, I have a plan.

This would be the first game I ever ran, and the first bit wouldn't be that long, but I could use some pointers looking for ways to mess with him/teach him how the game is supposed to go.

Don't do it. Just talk to the guy.

Most people are actually quite reasonable.

ATHATH

2017-01-27, 11:36 AM

Jay R

2017-01-27, 12:51 PM

The answer to the question, "Is it bad to want to X just to hurt somebody?" is Yes, for pretty much any value of X.

WbtE

2017-01-27, 12:54 PM

We have this one player, who makes up crazy stuff, then gets upset because he cant be 3 times as powerful as everyone else is just because he thinks whatever he made up should be viable.

Maybe you should play Mage: the Ascension with this guy? That would give him the enjoyment of going wild but encourage him to be subtle. :smallsmile:

Kymro

2017-01-27, 01:00 PM

Don't do it. Just talk to the guy.

Most people are actually quite reasonable.

I think he may have been an only child

Kymro

2017-01-27, 01:03 PM

+1 to this, especially the last part.

Can you post some of his builds and some of the builds of the other characters that his builds shared games with?

I'll give you an example. He wants to be a half dragon, because obviously to him dragon equals super overpowered. But then complains when the DM says fine, but you have to take the class level -5 for the race.

His just tries to outsmart everything, then gets upset when literally everything he comes up with is balanced via rules

Kymro

2017-01-27, 01:04 PM

The answer to the question, "Is it bad to want to X just to hurt somebody?" is Yes, for pretty much any value of X.
Way to make me feel like crap lol. Maybe spite was too harsh of a word

ATHATH

2017-01-27, 01:07 PM

I'll give you an example. He wants to be a half dragon, because obviously to him dragon equals super overpowered. But then complains when the DM says fine, but you have to take the class level -5 for the race.

His just tries to outsmart everything, then gets upset when literally everything he comes up with is balanced via rules
Did he want to go half-dragon for flavor reasons or for "look at these big numbers" reasons? If the former, see what he thinks about the Dragonborn template (possibly refluffed).

Grod_The_Giant

2017-01-27, 01:33 PM

Kymro

2017-01-27, 01:40 PM

Did he want to go half-dragon for flavor reasons or for "look at these big numbers" reasons? If the former, see what he thinks about the Dragonborn template (possibly refluffed).

Little of both, I think. This was his first character ever, and I don't even think he looked at any stats before deciding he wanted to be half dragon

The Glyphstone

2017-01-27, 01:43 PM

I didn't actually read your post because the title question was enough.

Yes, you're wrong for wanting to DM a game just to spite someone. That's not constructive.

This. So much this. If you feel that is your reasoning to be DM, then you should never be DM. Also, might be a really good idea to just leave your gaming group.

To put it as succinctly as possible, the answer to your thread title's question is, "yes."

Yes. The answer to your question is yes.

(Also, your session won't teach anyone anything, expect perhaps that you're a jerk GM who offers false choices vis-a-vis randomly-appearing Paladins)

...I think I know some people like that.

The answer to the question, "Is it bad to want to X just to hurt somebody?" is Yes, for pretty much any value of X.

Adding another +1 to this chain.

Segev

2017-01-27, 01:44 PM

The way to work on this, then, is to help him build characters by the rules that achieve the flavor he wants. Let him see what options exist. If he gets insistent, you tell him that the rules aren't going to be bent or broken for him in that way, and just be firm. If he wants to play a game, he has to abide by its rules.

lylsyly

2017-01-27, 02:04 PM

ComaVision

2017-01-27, 02:10 PM

I'd be extremely pissed off if I actually wanted to play a Half-Dragon and the DM houseruled them even weaker than they are.

Kymro

2017-01-27, 02:14 PM

Most definitely this.

If you pull your game on him, and the other players don't have fun, will you feel X about it?
I think everyone else would actually have fun, it would be an interesting campaign that actually encourages being derailed.

PaucaTerrorem

2017-01-27, 02:33 PM

I'll give you an example. He wants to be a half dragon, because obviously to him dragon equals super overpowered. But then complains when the DM says fine, but you have to take the class level -5 for the race.

His just tries to outsmart everything, then gets upset when literally everything he comes up with is balanced via rules

That's when you say "Well, them's the rules. If you want something high powered the party has get to those levels".

Sam K

2017-01-27, 02:42 PM

You have a person who does not understand the concept of "playing by the rules", and gets mad/frustrated when he can't just have what he wants, without consequences.

Does that seem as a person who would take being "smacked down" by the GM, infront of the group, with good cheer?

CharonsHelper

2017-01-27, 02:44 PM

Little of both, I think. This was his first character ever, and I don't even think he looked at any stats before deciding he wanted to be half dragon

Since he's a totally newbie, did you try aiming him at something not crazy with a similar vibe?

3.5's Dragon Shaman might work.

Pathfinder has the draconic bloodrager, and unlike 3.5, there are ways to make the Dragon Disciple pretty solid (actually, it's one of the few prestige classes in Pathfinder where that's true) though unlike in 3.5 you don't gain the dragon type at the 10th level.

Quertus

2017-01-27, 03:00 PM

I'm... a little at a loss as to what, exactly, the problem you're trying to solve is. But this doesn't sound like a healthy way to go about it.

If it's purely a power level issue, I find the easiest way to facilitate that conversation is to build your own character who is so over the top, who do completely outclasses the other PC in every way, and then ask if they'd care to scale back to the level of the rest of the party.

People seem oddly more receptive to the concept once you give them a taste of what it is like from the other side.

"Were-gypsy" is deprecated. The polite term these days is "LARPer."

I laughed so hard at this one.

ComaVision

2017-01-27, 03:08 PM

Did I end up in the twilight zone where being being Half-Dragon is so powerful that being 5 levels lower is reasonable?

WbtE

2017-01-27, 03:18 PM

Did I end up in the twilight zone where being being Half-Dragon is so powerful that being 5 levels lower is reasonable?

If this was a proper episode of cosmic horror, the punchline would be that you came from the Twilight Zone.

Kymro

2017-01-27, 03:22 PM

Did I end up in the twilight zone where being being Half-Dragon is so powerful that being 5 levels lower is reasonable?

No, but our current DM didn't make him take the negative, so I said screw that if he gets that then so do i, so I made a human half dragon 2nd lvl fighter/3rd lvl rogue.

He wanted to be a caster, no idea why as half dragon stats aren't really the best for that.

CharonsHelper

2017-01-27, 03:25 PM

He wanted to be a caster, no idea why as half dragon stats aren't really the best for that.

Because he's new and doesn't know what he's doing.

Frankly - it sounds like he's new and floundering, and you're applying all sorts of insidious motivations to him.

And - from this -

so I said screw that if he gets that then so do i, so I made a human half dragon 2nd lvl fighter/3rd lvl rogue.

you're the one breaking the game.

Kymro

2017-01-27, 03:31 PM

Because he's new and doesn't know what he's doing.

Frankly - it sounds like he's new and floundering, and you're applying all sorts of insidious motivations to him.

And - from this -

you're the one breaking the game.

You'd have to know him in real life, that's just how he is. If he isn't the best then the rules are flawed because obviously he should be

CharonsHelper

2017-01-27, 03:51 PM

You'd have to know him in real life, that's just how he is. If he isn't the best then the rules are flawed because obviously he should be

Okay. Best case scenario though, you're coming down to his level.

Stealth Marmot

2017-01-27, 03:55 PM

Okay. Best case scenario though, you're coming down to his level.

Well neither is taking a Level adjustment hit so they will be the same level.

..........WHAT?

AnachroNinja

2017-01-27, 03:56 PM

You'd have to know him in real life, that's just how he is. If he isn't the best then the rules are flawed because obviously he should be

So he tried to do something he thought was strong and cool, the DM worked with him because the template he wanted didn't actually do much for his class.

Your response to that was "Well I want to be able to use half dragon too!" And you deliberately made a character that took advantage of the situation so you could show him up and make him feel bad?

Yeah...I think we've solved the mystery of what's going wrong in your game.

CharonsHelper

2017-01-27, 03:59 PM

Well neither is taking a Level adjustment hit so they will be the same level.

..........WHAT?

Plus if we go down a level there will be tougher monsters!

Red Fel

2017-01-27, 04:15 PM

You'd have to know him in real life, that's just how he is. If he isn't the best then the rules are flawed because obviously he should be

So, your position isn't, "Is it bad to do this," it's, "Hey guys, I'mma do this because this guy totally deserves it, just trust me." Am I about right?

The thread has told you, almost universally, that this is a poor idea. Your response has been dismissive, as is your prerogative. This suggests to me that it's a thing you really just want to do. Again, that's fine.

If you really just want to do it, don't look to us for validation; you won't find it here. Just do the thing, if it means that much to you. The Playground has warned you, our collective conscience (ha!) is clean.

Scorponok

2017-01-27, 04:52 PM

Just give him a cursed item that griefs him whenever the DM wants, in whatever way the DM wants. All hijinx all the time.

Vaz

2017-01-27, 08:29 PM

I like these threads. It is always, without question the OP who is the real person who needs their arse slapping.

Segev

2017-01-27, 08:47 PM

I like these threads. It is always, without question the OP who is the real person who needs their arse slapping.

Eh, not really. I find them to be in the minority. Most of these threads ARE answered by "talk to them OOC," but likewise, most of those are met with "oh, right, I should do that" (or some variant thereon).

The ones where the OP is the one in need of correction are the minority, but they DO stand out prominently.

John Longarrow

2017-01-28, 12:40 AM

The Playground has warned you, our collective conscience (ha!) is clean.

Conscience? Your talking about conscience? And its NOT in blue??? Maybe we did enter the twilight zone... :smallbiggrin:

Kelb_Panthera

2017-01-28, 02:37 AM

Conscience? Your talking about conscience? And its NOT in blue??? Maybe we did enter the twilight zone... :smallbiggrin:

Note the parenthetical "Ha!"

Pretty sure that's meant as a mildly derisive "as if I even have one of those" exclamation. Though I have no idea why he'd do such a thing. :smallwink:

Jay R

2017-01-28, 09:03 AM

Way to make me feel like crap lol. Maybe spite was too harsh of a word

The point wasn't to make you feel bad for being tempted, but to help you resist the temptation.

Metahuman1

2017-01-28, 11:23 PM

I'm in general agreement with AnachroNinja and Red Fel.

Frankly, I question that the DM is actually getting sick of it and that it's not just you reading things into it that aren't there.

I also wonder, are you familiar with the stormwind fallacy? That being strong and exceptional at things does not make bad roll playing all on it's own and in fact in most heroic fantasy games should be part of good roleplaying since hero's SHOULD be good at some things? And that being weak and ineffective isn't automatically good roleplaying?

Further, I should mention, Half Dragon is an LA 3, not LA 5, meaning if your trying for LA 5, your deliberately trying to nerf the template form were it is rules as written. And rules as written, the template is so weak in a normal game as to boarder on unplayable.

Lastly, if your worried about him outshining you, trust me, he could have done that with the sorcerer and the players handbook and access to the core monster manual for Polymorph and Summoning spells and access to the DMG for gear as you advanced levels if your playing a Fighter/Rogue. Even if you had the template and he didn't. It didn't matter nearly as much as you seem to think it did, particularly if the game goes past 8th-10th level or so. The only way you can keep up is if he picks and uses bad spells. Which he might, being new.

LightSeeker

2017-01-30, 04:23 PM

This actually happened to me a few days ago. I was dming a dying world for the players to run around in. This town that two of our oldest players created was utterly destroyed. (a issue which I corrected by making the town slighter bigger and gave it a lake for them to draw revenue from). Well, the sorcerer didnt like that his library was destroyed even though I put it back EXACTLY the way it was. The man knew I didnt do it to spite him. Yet when it was his turn to dm all he did was haze me and my character for seven straight hours. No he didnt kill my character, but what he did was deny my character any chance for advancement that session. So speaking from experience. No it is not ok to dm to spite someone. Thats how friends are lost along with respect. Im sorry for my rant and long acedote.