Otto's Irresistible Dance

[Garresh]

So everywhere I look, this spell is considered bad. I also considered the spell pretty terrible...until I realized something.

It doesn't allow a save. It may not have as strong of an effect as other spells, merely preventing movement and causing advantage/disadvantage, but it has no chance of a save. And far more interesting, to make a save requires an action. While not great against a caster enemy, against any other enemy, even one with Legendary Resistances, it gets forced into a terrible situation. Lose all movement and suffer permanent disadvantage, or willingly lose 1 turn.

Against a creature with legendary resistance, a no-save-allowed lose one turn effect is actually kind of incredible. Because a wizard trading turns with an enemy gives the rest of your party 1 free turn to act without fear of retaliation, or simply unload free damage.

[Specter]

As I said in another thread...

1) You cast it, the enemy suffers its effects, period. No save, no to-hit. Gold.
2) All enemy movement is wasted by them dancing on their square. Enemy can't escape, can't fly or climb to a vantage point, can't get close to you (if you're a Wizard that's probably the selling point), can't get up if put to prone. If we're talking about a melee-only enemy (say, a 20th-level Paladin), everybody can just take a step back and destroy him effortlessly. Gold.
3) Verbal-only component, there to help you in a tight spot, or letting you carry whatever you want. Gold.
4) Disadvantage on Reflex saves. With a bit of party coordination, you can wreck bosses in one round. Gold.
5) Disadvantage on their attack rolls. Party members with good AC can walk around and stay in melee fearlessly, while the low-AC ones now have a high chance of avoiding the blows, or arrows, completely. Gold.
6) Advantage on your party's attacks against the enemy. That enemy with 30AC just became a lot more hittable, and rogues are crying tears of joy. Gold.
7) The enemy eats up their action to TRY to get out of the spell. Unlike those other bad spells like Phantasmal Killer and Hold Whoever and etc., they don't get a free save every round. Gold.

[Deleted]

As I said in another thread...

1) You cast it, the enemy suffers its effects, period. No save, no to-hit. Gold.
2) All enemy movement is wasted by them dancing on their square. Enemy can't escape, can't fly or climb to a vantage point, can't get close to you (if you're a Wizard that's probably the selling point), can't get up if put to prone. If we're talking about a melee-only enemy (say, a 20th-level Paladin), everybody can just take a step back and destroy him effortlessly. Gold.
3) Verbal-only component, there to help you in a tight spot, or letting you carry whatever you want. Gold.
4) Disadvantage on Reflex saves. With a bit of party coordination, you can wreck bosses in one round. Gold.
5) Disadvantage on their attack rolls. Party members with good AC can walk around and stay in melee fearlessly, while the low-AC ones now have a high chance of avoiding the blows, or arrows, completely. Gold.
6) Advantage on your party's attacks against the enemy. That enemy with 30AC just became a lot more hittable, and rogues are crying tears of joy. Gold.
7) The enemy eats up their action to TRY to get out of the spell. Unlike those other bad spells like Phantasmal Killer and Hold Whoever and etc., they don't get a free save every round. Gold.


I like the spell, so dont get me wrong but...

1) Hit or miss one creature target only.

2) Creatures that can't be charmed, are immune (some of those "30 AC" monster I bet have immunity to charm).

3) It's 6th level.

Hold PPerson gives you...

1) Free crits (paralyzed)
2) Enemy doesnt even get a turn, they make their save at the end
3) can cast the spell as 6th level to affect 5 creatures total
4) more spell slots to cast the spell when you do miss.
5) creature has to be immune to paralyzation to be immune to this.


Also

Paralyzed

A paralyzed creature is incapacitated (see the condition) and can’t move or speak.

The creature automatically fails Strength and Dexterity saving throws.

Attack rolls against the creature have advantage.

Any attack that hits the creature is a critical hit if the attacker is within 5 feet of the creature.


Edit #2

A large majority of the time the components of a spell won't come into play. Hell, I know so many people that straight up ignores them.

Also, Hold Spell are easier to deal with. Irressitable does some of the same things, but worse, in a round about way.

[Joe the Rat]

To be fair, you should compare it against 5th level's Hold Monster, because this targets creatures, not humanoids. Including beholders... how does that even work?

The main difference is on the stick. Hold person has a save against, saves to recover. Otto's will take effect, save to recover is not automatic.
Now, using this to avoid a high Wisdom save will probably just translate into spending a 6th level slot for one round Dis/Advantage goodness (and probably no actions), vs. spending a 2nd/5th level slot for a maybe of autocrits.

[Deleted]

To be fair, you should compare it against 5th level's Hold Monster, because this targets creatures, not humanoids. Including beholders... how does that even work?

The main difference is on the stick. Hold person has a save against, saves to recover. Otto's will take effect, save to recover is not automatic.
Now, using this to avoid a high Wisdom save will probably just translate into spending a 6th level slot for one round Dis/Advantage goodness (and probably no actions), vs. spending a 2nd/5th level slot for a maybe of autocrits.

Well...

You would want to compare it to 6th level Hold Monster so that you are comparing two spells taking up the same slot.

While irresistible dance gives an action to remove the effect, that still leaves them with a bonus action, use an item action, and whatever other things that I'm missing.

Hold Monster gives a more powerful effect and only allows for a save, after the initial, at the end of a target's turn. This means that if you get the spell to go off (versus 2 creatures, so good chances) then whomever grants all the better goodies until the end of their turn at the very least. That can be a whole round of crits and death.

[Specter]

I like the spell, so dont get me wrong but...

1) Hit or miss one creature target only.
2) Creatures that can't be charmed, are immune (some of those "30 AC" monster I bet have immunity to charm).
3) It's 6th level.
Hold PPerson gives you...

1) Free crits (paralyzed)
2) Enemy doesnt even get a turn, they make their save at the end
3) can cast the spell as 6th level to affect 5 creatures total
4) more spell slots to cast the spell when you do miss.
5) creature has to be immune to paralyzation to be immune to this.


Also
Paralyzed
A paralyzed creature is incapacitated (see the condition) and can’t move or speak.
The creature automatically fails Strength and Dexterity saving throws.

Attack rolls against the creature have advantage.

Any attack that hits the creature is a critical hit if the attacker is within 5 feet of the creature.

Edit #2
A large majority of the time the components of a spell won't come into play. Hell, I know so many people that straight up ignores them.
Also, Hold Spell are easier to deal with. Irressitable does some of the same things, but worse, in a round about way.

You just picked the bad parts of one spell and the good parts of the other. So let me delineate the bad things about Hold Person:

- It targets only humanoids. I don't even need to explain why this is bad. And only paralyzable humanoids.
- All the features that help saves (Bless, Bardic Inspiration, Circle of Power, etc.) help against it.
- It has V S M components. Otto's has V.
- If you happen to go right before the enemy, or if the enemy goes before the attackers, they get 2 saves to nullify it before anything happens. So to make good use of this, you need to go right after the opponent in the initiative order.
- Legendary Resistance nullifies it.
- Lesser Restoration nullifies it.

[Deleted]

You just picked the bad parts of one spell and the good parts of the other. So let me delineate the bad things about Hold Person:

- It targets only humanoids. I don't even need to explain why this is bad. And only paralyzable humanoids.
- All the features that help saves (Bless, Bardic Inspiration, Circle of Power, etc.) help against it.
- It has V S M components. Otto's has V.
- If you happen to go right before the enemy, or if the enemy goes before the attackers, they get 2 saves to nullify it before anything happens. So to make good use of this, you need to go right after the opponent in the initiative order.
- Legendary Resistance nullifies it.
- Lesser Restoration nullifies it.

The good parts of Hold Monster (we switched to Hold Monster @ level 6 to make things equal) are miles better than Otto's dance. OD gives disadvantage? Hold Monster targets 2 creatures and makes them fail Str and Dex saves automatically.

No spell should just be cast willy nilly. You should always think before you cast. Saying that's a negative is like saying fireball is bad because you might hit allies.

Lesser Resistance stops another creature from attacking you. Either way, someone is looking an action, that ain't bad! I'll take that trade.

Removing one use of legendary resistance so your allies can chip away more is a valid tactics. Seen it happen too many time.

Hold Monster targets two (or more when you get higher level spells) creatures, you don't cast Wis saves versus things that may have a high Wis (again, think before you cast).

Otto's dance doesn't really compare. Is it useful? Yes. Is it fun? Yup. Is it better than Hold Monster? No.

[LVOD]

Ottos can potentially last a full minute. I mean, you can reap those benefits a long time if you deincentivize the target to not waste an action.

Honestly, ottos benefit is the no save, which means its better for really strong creatures, and useless against mooks. Fighting multiple humans, you can upscale a hold spell to reap greater benefit. But against a single BBEG? You're likely wasting an action on a spell with a limited chance of success.

Then again, Ottos has a shorter range, and multiple enemies are much more common than one big one i think. I would argue that Ottos is just a more niche spell, but not strictly worse.

[ChubbyRain]

Practically speaking, level 6 spells typically never come online (level 11) whereas level 5 spells sometimes do (level 9).

And level 2 spells (hold person) almost always do.

So point for real world use to the Hold Line.

:p

I mean, I can say that True Polymorph is better than Polymorph but if I never get the chance to use it... Is it really a bettwr spell? Nope.

[Alatar]

Practically speaking, level 6 spells typically never come online (level 11) whereas level 5 spells sometimes do (level 9).

That is situational. My situation is we tend to play through as many levels as can be played. In the case of 5e, that's 20+.

Otto's Irresistible Dance is particularly useful, and Hold Monster is particularly useless, at upper levels when your opponent is very likely to be sporting legendary hoo-hah. In our games, the legendary hoo-hah starts showing up at about 10th level and is prevalent by level 12, so basically two steps ahead of at-will teleporting. Once the teleporting bingo kicks in big time, even Walls of Force lose their efficacy and Otto's starts to look really good. After all, it's only a 6th level spell.

[ChubbyRain]

That is situational. My situation is we tend to play through as many levels as can be played. In the case of 5e, that's 20+.

Otto's Irresistible Dance is particularly useful, and Hold Monster is particularly useless, at upper levels when your opponent is very likely to be sporting legendary hoo-hah. In our games, the legendary hoo-hah starts showing up at about 10th level and is prevalent by level 12, so basically two steps ahead of at-will teleporting. Once the teleporting bingo kicks in big time, even Walls of Force lose their efficacy and Otto's starts to look really good. After all, it's only a 6th level spell.


Thats why I'm saying practically speaking. Most people will never see 6th level spells or more.

Hold Monater is better than Otto's for the reason you are saying. You get yourself and two other casters shooting off spells that force the target to use up their resistances.

Hold Monster (5th) forces one use of that feature. Then the next round someone can blast off a very powerful 6th level or higher spell without worrying about the target autosucceeding and wasting that high level slot.

Burn out resistances and then drop a disentergrate? 9th level mass suggestion? Eyebite?

Any other creature? I'll take Paralyzation crit set up for 1,000. After the first round you know if you need to ready your action or not.

I'm not saying Otto's Dance is a bad spell, just Hold Monster is as good or better.

Don't forget, for the same spell slot you get two targets of Hold Monster. As long as you are smart about whom you cast it on (same with Otto, having it end in one round is... A shame if because you didn't cast it on the wrong creature).

[Gignere]

Against legendary resistance Otto's is too amazing. Against everything else probably not as good. Now what you want is team work, one person Otto's the legendary another try and land another SOS to burn the creature's legendary saves.

[Deleted]

Against legendary resistance Otto's is too amazing. Against everything else probably not as good. Now what you want is team work, one person Otto's the legendary another try and land another SOS to burn the creature's legendary saves.

6th level is too high to be wasting like that.

Stick with the lowest spell slot possible and then but out the good stuff.

[Alatar]

Thats why I'm saying practically speaking. Most people will never see 6th level spells or more.

I guess that's true. The game is more balanced in the first half of the PC progression. Martial melee types need to be propped up in the later innings, and that requires one or more spellcasters to 1. figure that out, and 2. embrace that responsibility. In our current campaign, I saw plenty of the former and a dearth of the latter, so I've just dropped my battlemaster in favor of a sorcerer who specializes in buffery. The party champion will have a decent second half after all.


You get yourself and two other casters shooting off spells that force the target to use up their resistances.


Now what you want is team work, one person Otto's the legendary another try and land another SOS to burn the creature's legendary saves.

Again, I'd call that circumstantial, and also, perhaps, an aesthetic choice. We are only two campaigns into 5e, having started a fairly long 4e campaign just as the new Player's Handbook was hitting the shelves. Now 4e, that was a game about teamwork.

So far, in our 5e campaigns, we've averaged one controller in a party of seven. Yeah, the paladin and the cleric could throw save-or-suck, but they have their own ideas about how to fight. 5e is less about team based firefights, more about freelancing, doing your own thing, reveling in the mystery and magic of it all. It's unwise to meddle in the affairs of wizards, and all that.

One thing I've noticed is that those legendary guys often have really sweet save bonuses. And combats go three to five rounds. When they go longer, stuff gets oogly. Burning through legendary defenses is a problematic undertaking. My wizard did have limited success at it last campaign, but by 18th level he was going around legendary resistance, not through it. Third level slots were for Blink and Counterspell. Fourth level slots were for Dimension Door. Fifth level slots were for Wall of Force. I prepped Hold Monster, but I never deployed it. Maybe once.

And not all players are tactically minded, if you know what I mean. And those people didn't like 4e very much. Always getting told what to do by the one or two people at the table who actually did know what was going on. Teamwork ain't free. One of our tacticians got asked to leave the group after that final 4e campaign.


Hold Monster (5th) forces one use of that feature.

So does Tasha's Hideous Laughter and Hypnotic Pattern. Command. And those are dime store spells.


Burn out resistances and then drop a disintegrate?

I love when that happens. What a delightful spell. And I pooh-poohed it in that first 5e campaign. I still took it. I'm not crazy. But I tend to think of flashy damage spells as sucker bets. Disintegrate, though, is such a useful spell. Great for impromptu remodeling.

[SharkForce]

well, i think i've detect the reason some people think otto's irresistible dance is so good.

legendary opponents are not supposed to be a dime a dozen. if you run into legendary resistance on a regular basis, there is a problem. having a plan for when something with legendary does show up is not a bad idea, but it should almost never happen casually; when you run across a dragon, or a beholder, or a vampire lord, it should not be a random encounter, it should be either because you screwed up, or because you're there specifically looking for them.

if your DM has decided that he wants all spellcasters to suck royally and only gives you enemies with legendary resistance, then sure... otto's irresistible dance looks really good. but only because everything else is being made to artificially look really really bad. even in encounters where you *are* facing a legendary opponent (which i must stress, the fact that it is a LEGENDARY opponent should tell you something about when you should encounter them), there should often be minions around for you to deal with, and thus targets without legendary resistance.

but seriously, if you're DMing, don't cheapen legendary monsters by having them show up as nameless cannon fodder, and don't warp the game against spellcasters by making legendary resistance the default.

[Gignere]

well, i think i've detect the reason some people think otto's irresistible dance is so good.

legendary opponents are not supposed to be a dime a dozen. if you run into legendary resistance on a regular basis, there is a problem. having a plan for when something with legendary does show up is not a bad idea, but it should almost never happen casually; when you run across a dragon, or a beholder, or a vampire lord, it should not be a random encounter, it should be either because you screwed up, or because you're there specifically looking for them.

if your DM has decided that he wants all spellcasters to suck royally and only gives you enemies with legendary resistance, then sure... otto's irresistible dance looks really good. but only because everything else is being made to artificially look really really bad. even in encounters where you *are* facing a legendary opponent (which i must stress, the fact that it is a LEGENDARY opponent should tell you something about when you should encounter them), there should often be minions around for you to deal with, and thus targets without legendary resistance.

but seriously, if you're DMing, don't cheapen legendary monsters by having them show up as nameless cannon fodder, and don't warp the game against spellcasters by making legendary resistance the default.

Well since we are talking about a wizard, if he can know before hand he will face an enemy with legendary resistance he can just prepare Otto's. I probably wouldn't put it as an everyday prep. However the same thing can be said about simulacrum and no one thinks that spell suck even when it isn't an everyday prep.

[SharkForce]

Well since we are talking about a wizard, if he can know before hand he will face an enemy with legendary resistance he can just prepare Otto's. I probably wouldn't put it as an everyday prep. However the same thing can be said about simulacrum and no one thinks that spell suck even when it isn't an everyday prep.

there are a lot of spells that are just good all the time (or at least most of the time). granted, wizard is basically the king of situational spells, but you're looking at the same level as sunbeam, disintegrate, globe of invulnerability, mass suggestion, and true seeing, and you're looking at spells of a level where even if buying spells is common, buying spells of that level probably will not be.

picking up otto's irresistible dance for that once in a blue moon fight where the enemy has legendary saves just doesn't sound that appealing. there are spells that can work around legendary saves that also work amazingly well in other situations... bigby's hand, wall of force, and animate objects all do wonderful things even to enemies with legendary saves, for example, and are pretty good spells to have around whether there's an enemy with legendary saves or not.

i'm not saying it's a terrible spell, and i'm not saying you can never find a good use for it... i'm just saying i find that it really isn't best in any particular niche by a huge margin, and it isn't super versatile either. the one situation where it's pretty good (but i'm not sold on "better than other options by a large amount") is a pretty uncommon one.

[EvilAnagram]

It's confounding to me that a spell with a no-save effect that takes an action to escape and provides multiple advantages over opponents could possibly be seen as less than amazing.

[SharkForce]

that's because it has compensating factors; it's single target, and the effect is pretty nice, but not amazing.

if highly reliable restrain were that valuable, you'd see a lot more people picking up the grappler fight.

[Armok]

I think we're all overlooking the best part of this spell, which is that you can compel your opposition to a radical dance-off. That's gotta count for something.

[Alatar]

legendary opponents are not supposed to be a dime a dozen.

We hardly ever see more than one or two at a time... at 12th level. And it's not every encounter. No more than two out of three. And don't cry for the spellcasters. The melee guys are lucky of they can lay a blade on anyone at 12th level. Those demons love to teleport. Or fly. Or fly and teleport.

Really, it's session one of level one that is the real killing field. CR 6 in an average campaign. We did open with a CR 12 encounter once in 3rd edition. That was an unusual campaign. And a long year. But we usually lose someone in session one. Level 12 is a relative cakewalk.

My DM has a thing for death saves. The evening can't really be called a success unless he's had at least one. You know, he was pretty good in the beginning, but he's been slowly getting worse, and, well, the last thirty five years have been kinda brutal.


Well since we are talking about a wizard, if he can know before hand he will face an enemy with legendary resistance he can just prepare Otto's. I probably wouldn't put it as an everyday prep. However the same thing can be said about simulacrum and no one thinks that spell suck even when it isn't an everyday prep.

Every day is legendary resistance day with my DM. My current character is a 12th level sorcerer. In round 1 he buffs himself and someone else: twin haste on the fighter or paladin, or twin greater invisibility on the cleric, or fly on several people. Then he spams twinned and quickened cantrips till the bleeding stops. From great range. Spell Sniper. So, spell resistance and legendary hoo-haa is not a thing as far as I am concerned. The warlock doesn't much care either. We let the wizard worry about that. He's a cerebral guy. He can handle it.


there are a lot of spells that are just good all the time (or at least most of the time). granted, wizard is basically the king of situational spells, but you're looking at the same level as sunbeam, disintegrate, globe of invulnerability, mass suggestion, and true seeing, and you're looking at spells of a level where even if buying spells is common, buying spells of that level probably will not be.

True Seeing is a pretty fancy spell. For the wizard who has everything, I guess. But all those other spells you mention have saving throws. Legendary Larry has to fail four of those suckers to get one to stick. Sunbeam is a good attrition spell. My sorcerer packs that. But that 6th level slot, hey, that's 6 sorcery points right there. That's two rounds of twinned and hasted cantrip spamming.


picking up otto's irresistible dance for that once in a blue moon fight

Every Wednesday night, 6:30pm to 11:00pm.


bigby's hand

Nice spell. Underrated, in my opinion.


wall of force
Love that spell. Wall of Force is actually my favorite 5e spell. But last week's Legendary Larry had teleport 120' as a bonus action. Come to think of it, that was the night I retired my battlemaster and brought in that sorcerer.


and animate objects

Ooooh, that would be non-magical damage, would it not? A lot of Legendary Larrys, or their friends, ignore that stuff entirely. Half damage at best. Eldritch blast, on the other hand, always works. Chill Touch has a very high incidence of success as well. Firebolt sometimes, but I get to add my spellcaster mod to the damage total, so it's worth the experimental probe.


It's confounding to me that a spell with a no-save effect that takes an action to escape and provides multiple advantages over opponents could possibly be seen as less than amazing.

Well now, tastes do differ, and perspective is a funny thing. I could never understand why someone would play a summoner in 3e. The CRs on those creatures were so puny. And then I saw someone play a summoner. Man, the way those critters tied up the middle. Incredible. Made the DM foam at the mouth.

[SharkForce]

We hardly ever see more than one or two at a time... at 12th level. And it's not every encounter. No more than two out of three. And don't cry for the spellcasters. The melee guys are lucky of they can lay a blade on anyone at 12th level. Those demons love to teleport. Or fly. Or fly and teleport.

Really, it's session one of level one that is the real killing field. CR 6 in an average campaign. We did open with a CR 12 encounter once in 3rd edition. That was an unusual campaign. And a long year. But we usually lose someone in session one. Level 12 is a relative cakewalk.

My DM has a thing for death saves. The evening can't really be called a success unless he's had at least one. You know, he was pretty good in the beginning, but he's been slowly getting worse, and, well, the last thirty five years have been kinda brutal.



Every day is legendary resistance day with my DM. My current character is a 12th level sorcerer. In round 1 he buffs himself and someone else: twin haste on the fighter or paladin, or twin greater invisibility on the cleric, or fly on several people. Then he spams twinned and quickened cantrips till the bleeding stops. From great range. Spell Sniper. So, spell resistance and legendary hoo-haa is not a thing as far as I am concerned. The warlock doesn't much care either. We let the wizard worry about that. He's a cerebral guy. He can handle it.



True Seeing is a pretty fancy spell. For the wizard who has everything, I guess. But all those other spells you mention have saving throws. Legendary Larry has to fail four of those suckers to get one to stick. Sunbeam is a good attrition spell. My sorcerer packs that. But that 6th level slot, hey, that's 6 sorcery points right there. That's two rounds of twinned and hasted cantrip spamming.



Every Wednesday night, 6:30pm to 11:00pm.



Nice spell. Underrated, in my opinion.


Love that spell. Wall of Force is actually my favorite 5e spell. But last week's Legendary Larry had teleport 120' as a bonus action. Come to think of it, that was the night I retired my battlemaster and brought in that sorcerer.



Ooooh, that would be non-magical damage, would it not? A lot of Legendary Larrys, or their friends, ignore that stuff entirely. Half damage at best. Eldritch blast, on the other hand, always works. Chill Touch has a very high incidence of success as well. Firebolt sometimes, but I get to add my spellcaster mod to the damage total, so it's worth the experimental probe.



Well now, tastes do differ, and perspective is a funny thing. I could never understand why someone would play a summoner in 3e. The CRs on those creatures were so puny. And then I saw someone play a summoner. Man, the way those critters tied up the middle. Incredible. Made the DM foam at the mouth.

- 2/3 fights being against legendary opponents (with apparently no minions to help with?) is way overboard. yes, in those conditions, anything that has a save at all is going to look artificially bad.

- with 3 casters, you can probably go through legendary saves quicker than you think, if you really wanted.

- why don't your warriors have ranged attacks? i mean, everyone should have something, and in your campaign in particular, it sounds like it should almost be the main focus of your builds. if everything is flying, and teleporting as a bonus action (which sounds suspiciously homebrew, btw... most everything i can remember teleporting in the monster manual does so as a regular action. there's some stuff that can use legendary actions to teleport, and i've found one monster that can teleport as part of a multiattack at the expense of a second regular attack, but it's going to be stuck next to you at least one round out of every two), well... the thing is, you're not playing D&D so much as you are playing "how hard can the DM troll you before you get fed up and leave". i mean, if you're enjoying that, more power to you, but at level 12, "one adult red dragon" is not a typical encounter, and in fact, it should be more along the lines of "a few drow elites" or something like that.

- true seeing is situational like otto's, except in the situation where it is useful, it is godlike in power. otto's will let you weaken a target a bit. true seeing trivializes certain encounters in ways that otto's simply cannot. i don't know that it would be in my top 3, but when it's a good spell, it's amazing.

- actually, most things are not immune to non-magical damage, even legendary creatures. and half damage from animate objects tends to still be quite a lot of damage. but yes, in situations where animate object is not the right choice, well, like i said, bigby's hand is a very versatile spell that can fill somewhat the same role :P

[EvilAnagram]

The use of Otto's on flying creatures is where it really shines.

[Captain Panda]

In general combat against weaker monsters, it's a horrible spell. It shouldn't be judged like that. It's not the spell you use when you'd consider casting tasha's or hold monster at all. Casting hold monster on the ancient red dragon just isn't going to work, because in the unlikely event that he fails... he'll just choose to not fail. No such luck with Otto's. Giving the dragon disadvantage on attacks and advantage to your allies without a save is the selling point of Otto's, and it's an incredible benefit on something you'd otherwise not be able to hit. Then, even better, he has to use his action to have the luxury of burning a legendary resistance on it. In combat against something big, guaranteeing that it loses even a single turn can make or break a battle.

[SharkForce]

In general combat against weaker monsters, it's a horrible spell. It shouldn't be judged like that. It's not the spell you use when you'd consider casting tasha's or hold monster at all. Casting hold monster on the ancient red dragon just isn't going to work, because in the unlikely event that he fails... he'll just choose to not fail. No such luck with Otto's. Giving the dragon disadvantage on attacks and advantage to your allies without a save is the selling point of Otto's, and it's an incredible benefit on something you'd otherwise not be able to hit. Then, even better, he has to use his action to have the luxury of burning a legendary resistance on it. In combat against something big, guaranteeing that it loses even a single turn can make or break a battle.

sure, but there are other spells that are great against those big single tough targets, and they're also better in other situations too. it isn't bad in the situation you described, but it's not a whole lot better than some of those other options.

[Alatar]

- 2/3 fights being against legendary opponents (with apparently no minions to help with?) is way overboard. yes, in those conditions, anything that has a save at all is going to look artificially bad.

The big bad almost always has sidekicks. Solo monsters usually don't work in D&D. Action economy dooms them.


- with 3 casters, you can probably go through legendary saves quicker than you think, if you really wanted.

Let's see. We have a bladesinger wizard, a blade pact warlock, a squishy sorcerer (me), a devotion paladin, a life cleric, a swashbuckler and a champion. That's 5 spellcasters and 5 melee guys (not counting the cleric) in a party of 7. So, yes, we probably could burn through the legendary defenses of one guy in one round, theoretically. But in practice, this is unlikely to occur, or, rather, it does not occur.

The paladin, mounted, can run down and engage directly with opponents to good effect. That is what he does. He plays to his own strengths, not to the wizard's weakness.

The warlock does his warlock thing. Mostly he spams eldritch blast. Occasionally we see a pact blade. He plays to his own strengths, not the wizard's weakness.

The cleric usually backs up the paladin in combat (she likes the buff to saving throws), has a defensive buff going, runs spiritual weapon, and does a little something here and there. And she heals. She behaves like a life cleric. She may throw a save-or-suck at the big bad, but that's not really her thing and the fact that it is unlikely to work is poor motivation.

The sorcerer (me) buffs our land crabs, or our cleric, and spams cantrips from range. Legendary what? I've lost two characters in 38 years of play. That's my specialty.

The enemy, of course, engages us energetically, seeking to impede our preferred activities and defocus our fire. They can be so bothersome about it sometimes.

In the end, it's the wizard that has the problem. And, you know what, if he didn't have problems then playing a wizard would grow rather dull. Success in the face of adversity is the only success worth having.

The people running the paladin and the wizard are tacticians. The rest of them, not so much. The warlock and the champion, not at all. And stop telling them what to do. The DM keeps his monsters spread out and he pumps CR. Tactics of a sort. Though he did run that teleport-as-a-bonus-action guy to good effect. That was a solo monster that actually worked as a solo monster.

But I retired my battlemaster immediately thereafter. Not that I didn't know it was coming. I knew the deal. I put the sorcerer together and cleared the switch with the DM weeks in advance. I ended up leveling him up while I waited for the right moment. The battlemaster was a real blast through the first 10 levels. Sword & board. Shield master. He was the only player character who didn't roll death saves in session one. Heavy armor master.

So, three to five rounds and it's done, generally. We did have a particularly long battle last session. Two Legendary Larry's, three or four other guys, some summoned devils, lemures. 10 wolves. Maybe it went 8 rounds. It didn't go ten. No death saves. The champion did spend a round as a toad.


- why don't your warriors have ranged attacks? i mean, everyone should have something, and in your campaign in particular, it sounds like it should almost be the main focus of your builds.

Well, they do, but they were built for dancing, which served them well through the first 10 levels.


if everything is flying, and teleporting as a bonus action (which sounds suspiciously homebrew, btw... most everything i can remember teleporting in the monster manual does so as a regular action. there's some stuff that can use legendary actions to teleport, and i've found one monster that can teleport as part of a multiattack at the expense of a second regular attack, but it's going to be stuck next to you at least one round out of every two)

You know, I don't ask him where he gets his monsters. I do think he frequents that DM Guild and other less reputable sites.

Higher level monsters have better mobility than lower level monsters. High level player characters have better mobility that lower level player characters. Except for the melee martial guys. They stay stuck in the mud forever, unless they are helped out of it by someone else. And at the high end of things, combats get three dimensional. We just happen to hit the high end a little early. That's just the way it is, and that is why melee martial guys fade in the second half. Mobility is a big deal, and they don't have it. But they are a whole lot of fun in levels 1 through 10.

But my squishy sorcerer will keep the champion and the swashbuckler in the game, he won't step on the wizards glory, he won't out-blast the warlock, and he'll only take damage when I feel like indulging the DM. I let him tag me once last session, after I baited him a bit. I'm sure he felt good about it. I know I smiled inside.


, well... the thing is, you're not playing D&D so much as you are playing "how hard can the DM troll you before you get fed up and leave". i mean, if you're enjoying that, more power to you, but at level 12, "one adult red dragon" is not a typical encounter, and in fact, it should be more along the lines of "a few drow elites" or something like that.

Ha, ha, yeah. Well, we've been playing this way for a while. Our combats are challenging. And he did have to endure all of 3rd edition. 3.0, in particular, was rather brutal on DMs. Talk about quadratic wizards.


- true seeing is situational like otto's, except in the situation where it is useful, it is godlike in power. otto's will let you weaken a target a bit. true seeing trivializes certain encounters in ways that otto's simply cannot. i don't know that it would be in my top 3, but when it's a good spell, it's amazing.

Very true. But you have to acquire it and then you have to prep it, all in the hope that you will someday use it. If that happens, then perhaps the investment was warranted. Tough call. I carried that spell in 3rd edition, when spells were a good deal more plentiful and I could scribe my own scrolls.


- actually, most things are not immune to non-magical damage

That is certainly true, but it also true that we encounter many of the things that are immune. And it's a fairly low magic campaign. The paladin has to rely on Magic Weapon. The swashbuckler acquired a magic weapon just this past week, a +1 short sword.


and half damage from animate objects tends to still be quite a lot of damage.

I took it out for a spin a couple of times and was underwhelmed. Perhaps I just had bad luck with it.

[Tanarii]

I've lost two characters in 38 years of play. That's my specialty.
Just had to break out of quietly observing this thread to say ...
Holy crap, really? I mean, in modern D&D that's not so amazing. But you had to have started with oD&D, Holmes,mor AD&D 1e pre-UA. And in those editions, survival is a minor miracle. Let alone for a beginning player.

[TraigosOde]

It is a good spell but it is also only very good in a limited number of situations which makes it a bad pick for a bard but a better pick for a wizard.

This thread has discussed how it functions in comparison to hold monster but there is another spell that I think makes it even more of a niche spell: Telekinesis.

Telekinesis also gives you target disadvantage on attack rolls, disadvantage on dex checks, and advantage in attack rolls made to hit but more significantly it also bypasses legendary resistance.

Telekinesis also benefits from guidance, bardic inspiration, regular inspiration, Hex, and other abilities that affect skill checks but don't affect savings throws.

So in order for Otto's to be an ideal choice the target has to be something that is a) has legendary resistance b) is too big to be affected by Telekinesis.

Basically it's a spell to kill Ancient dragons, which is incredibly valuable in that situation but not terribly valuable in others.

[Alatar]

Just had to break out of quietly observing this thread to say ...
Holy crap, really? I mean, in modern D&D that's not so amazing. But you had to have started with oD&D, Holmes,mor AD&D 1e pre-UA. And in those editions, survival is a minor miracle. Let alone for a beginning player.

I'm sure I was lucky, I rolled a 4 on a d4 for my first hit points roll, and my very first DM probably had his finger on the scale quite a bit. Also, we never played modules, so Gary was unable to reach out from Lake Geneva to kill my characters. But it was all dungeon grinds back then.

I played only human wizards throughout all of AD&D. For the first 2 or 3 levels, I was always the guy in the back who was running away.

The key to staying alive is where you place your feet. Even in a theater-of-the-mind game, which is how it used to be, I was always very specific and assertive about where I was standing. Most things travel in a straight line. That's simple physics, and we don't fight it, not even in our imaginations. So it is vital for your 4 HD wizard to always have a view that is askew. If you are backing away, never back directly away, always take an angle. Perpendicular is often a good choice. Straight back is rarely a good choice. And of course, ever since 4e, diagonals come at a discount.

If you are in a room, leave it.

Situational awareness. Always be sizing up the situation. See where the blow is likely to land. Be elsewhere. Never, never, never cluster. Fireballs happen. Don't pose for them.

Initiative is always underrated. In 3rd edition, Dexterity was the primary stat for my wizards, and my motto was, "Initiative is the key to the universe" (because the feet placement thing works best if no one else at the table really groks it).

In 5e, proper positioning really pays off for a battlemaster. I was amazed. Menacing attack, Trip attack and the Shield Master feat taught me that backing off from you opponent (at an angle!) at the end of your turn pays amazing dividends. Someone is going to eat that claw-claw-bite, but it probably isn't going to be you. DMs, like all things in nature, tend to move in a straight line. And even if you failed to trip or frighten the target, back off anyway. Take the opportunity attack. It will hurt less that the full attack action that is sure to come if you stay put. And now his reaction is blown.

The 4e defender was all about standing in the middle, pulling them in and soaking up damage. The 5e battlemaster is all about working around the edges, imposing conditions and tagging as many targets as you can. As for soaking up damage, that's what the champion is for. Nyuk, nyuk. We do have one. His weapon is very large.

In all editions, my wizards devote(d) roughly half their resources to defensive measures. You don't have to be impossible to hit (though that was an option in 3rd edition), you just need to be harder to hit than everyone else. All it takes is one good hit and it's game over. That was true for a very long time. Even a 3rd edition 7th level wizard could be felled with one blow.

If you are really consistent about that, for decades, the DM subconsciously stops trying to hit you. In the last couple of years of 3rd edition, I stopped prepping defensive spells altogether. First I started prepping a bit less, then I prepped a lot less, then I didn't prep at all. My DM was so conditioned (decades!) to not consider me targetable that it didn't matter. He just assumed that I was flying, invisible, ghostformed and hasted. I'm sure he didn't even realize he was doing it. I told him he was doing it. He could not break the conditioning. And this is a guy who really likes to end PCs. Alas, 4e ended that. But 4e also took sudden death off the table. Still possible as a corner case, but unlikely.

[Slayn82]

I think it's a good spell to have on reserve, or ready when fighting above your weight class, when it becomes fantastic. Being able to get a couple scrolls with it never will hurt.

The dance also bypass Freedom of Movement, the proactive counter against Hold Monster, since the dance doesn't reduce the target speed in any way, instead simply making him use all his movement to dance in his square, neither causing paralysis or restrained status.

This spell used right after the target's turn mostly assures your melee next him will stay close to him for another turn, while offering excellent tactical advantage for them.

[Specter]

It is a good spell but it is also only very good in a limited number of situations which makes it a bad pick for a bard but a better pick for a wizard.

This thread has discussed how it functions in comparison to hold monster but there is another spell that I think makes it even more of a niche spell: Telekinesis.

Telekinesis also gives you target disadvantage on attack rolls, disadvantage on dex checks, and advantage in attack rolls made to hit but more significantly it also bypasses legendary resistance.

Telekinesis also benefits from guidance, bardic inspiration, regular inspiration, Hex, and other abilities that affect skill checks but don't affect savings throws.

So in order for Otto's to be an ideal choice the target has to be something that is a) has legendary resistance b) is too big to be affected by Telekinesis.

Basically it's a spell to kill Ancient dragons, which is incredibly valuable in that situation but not terribly valuable in others.

Yeah, that's nice, except you have to win a Strenght contest against the target, every round. Otto's requires nothing at all.