Another Skills Optimization Thread

[tedcahill2]

I have been thinking long and hard about the skills system in D&D 3.5 and have read a lot (like a lot) of posts about them. I have read the skills in Pathfinder, and Iron Heroes as well, and everyone brings something interesting to the table, but I can't help feel like no one has found the perfect solution.

Dungeons & Dragons Skills
Pros: lots of skills means that each skill can be specific in use and purpose, which is largely achieved (yes you can be great at hiding but loud as hell, yes you can have great eyesight but can't pick out a distant sound, yes you can be an excellent climber but a terrible jumper, etc.)

Cons: falls apart with multiclass characters due to prohibitive cross-class skills system

Pathfinder Skills
Pros: fewer skills due to grouping some skills into more broad categories
Cons: the arbitrary grouping of skills diminishes customization (suddenly everyone with good balance [i.e. acrobatics] is also an amazing escape artist), removal of some skills similarly effects the game (everyone is amazing at using rope and every caster is amazing at resisting spell loss due to taking damage)

Iron Heroes Skills
Pros: skill groups significantly enhance a classes role within the group, and allows more points to be spent on niche skills
Cons: extremely broad skill groups

I'm not here to advocate that I have come up with the perfect solution, but I do have an idea, a combination of all systems, that I wanted to get some feedback on.

1) Use the skill list from Dungeons and Dragons, 39 skills before counting all the variations of profession, knowledge, and craft. This allows for the greatest degree of customization and means that if you are playing D&D, which I am, and using my variant skills rules there will be no conversion needed.

2) Remove cross-class skills. Adopting Pathfinder's system that limits max ranks in a skill to you level, but gives you a +3 bonus to any skill that appears on your classes list, as long as you have at least one rank in it. I really like this system. It maintains that a rogue, for example, will always be a bit better than a fighter at opening locks, but a fighter could nonetheless learn to be pretty good at opening a lock (much better than only ever being half as good under the standard cross-class skill limits).

3) Create skill groups by vocation or background trait and allow each player to choose a couple of skill groups during character creation. You can buy ranks in your skill groups as though they were a single skill, your ranks in the skill group are treated as an equal number of ranks in each skill (2 or 3) in that grouping. Any class can choose any skill group, choosing a skill group does not make those skills class skills, so you still have to choose a class with that skill to get the +3 bonus.

A couple examples:
Espionage: Disguise, Forgery, Gather Information
Magician: Sleight of Hand, Use Magic Device
Devout: Concentration, Knowledge (religion), Spellcraft
Thug: Intimidation, Gather Information, Knowledge (local)
Sneak: Hide, Move Silently
Perceptive: Spot, Listen
Merchant: Appraise, Diplomacy
Mariner: Use Rope, Swim
Athletic: Climb, Jump
Mechanic: Disable Device, Open Lock
Saboteur: Disable Device, Knowledge (engineering)

The skill groups that each player chooses is a great way to define a character. Any character can take any of the skills individually, but your choice of skill groups at the start of the game provide a tangible benefit to having a deeper background by granting skill point efficiencies.

Appreciate you reading all this. What do you think?

[daremetoidareyo]

We just count up the number of skills a class has, and the player can choose any number of those to be their class skills. Doesn't really harm anything and helps mundanes more than it does casters.

[lylsyly]

Every Skill on your Class list is yours and your skill level is your ECL

[tedcahill2]

We just count up the number of skills a class has, and the player can choose any number of those to be their class skills. Doesn't really harm anything and helps mundanes more than it does casters.

This is a very simplified version of the skills system, but it doesn't solve for a lot of what I'm trying to do. In your system a wizard can hide just as well as a rogue. In mine the rogue would still edge out the wizard (due to the +3 bonus on class skills), but a wizard can otherwise be excellent at hiding.

[tedcahill2]

Every Skill on your Class list is yours and your skill level is your ECL

This doesn't address cross-class skills, and give rogues and bard a massive skill buff, considering they have 20+ class skills each. If you multiclass monk/rogue do you get all skills on all lists?

[ShurikVch]

Dungeons & Dragons Skills
...
Cons: falls apart with multiclass characters due to prohibitive cross-class skills systemDo you aware skill which was your class skill for one level, will stay class skill forever (except cost 2 points at levels in classes which are don't have it)?

[lylsyly]

This doesn't address cross-class skills, and give rogues and bard a massive skill buff, considering they have 20+ class skills each. If you multiclass monk/rogue do you get all skills on all lists?

If you quit being a carpenter and start working as a mechanic do you forget how to be a carpenter? Need a Skill? Dip the class, and take a hit in delayed class features, hmmm?

[Bakkan]

I, like you, love skill systems. For me, it is one of the great strengths of D&D 3.5. Thus I am always interested in ways of making it even better, though I wouldn't universally prefer your changes.



1) Use the skill list from Dungeons and Dragons, 39 skills before counting all the variations of profession, knowledge, and craft. This allows for the greatest degree of customization and means that if you are playing D&D, which I am, and using my variant skills rules there will be no conversion needed.


This, however, matches my preferences completely. I think that systems with fewer skills reduce the variety among characters of the same archetype, which I don't like.




2) Remove cross-class skills. Adopting Pathfinder's system that limits max ranks in a skill to you level, but gives you a +3 bonus to any skill that appears on your classes list, as long as you have at least one rank in it. I really like this system. It maintains that a rogue, for example, will always be a bit better than a fighter at opening locks, but a fighter could nonetheless learn to be pretty good at opening a lock (much better than only ever being half as good under the standard cross-class skill limits).


This change I don't like. At moderate to high character or optimization levels, a difference of 3 in a skill modifier is mostly insignificant. I feel that class skills should matter more, since this makes class skills another resource to manage (like feats, gold, or skill points). As I like resource management games, I like D&D's current skill point system, which has the double considerations of max rank caps and cross-class investment.



3) Create skill groups by vocation or background trait and allow each player to choose a couple of skill groups during character creation. You can buy ranks in your skill groups as though they were a single skill, your ranks in the skill group are treated as an equal number of ranks in each skill (2 or 3) in that grouping. Any class can choose any skill group, choosing a skill group does not make those skills class skills, so you still have to choose a class with that skill to get the +3 bonus.

A couple examples:
Espionage: Disguise, Forgery, Gather Information
Magician: Sleight of Hand, Use Magic Device
Devout: Concentration, Knowledge (religion), Spellcraft
Thug: Intimidation, Gather Information, Knowledge (local)
Sneak: Hide, Move Silently
Perceptive: Spot, Listen
Merchant: Appraise, Diplomacy
Mariner: Use Rope, Swim
Athletic: Climb, Jump
Mechanic: Disable Device, Open Lock
Saboteur: Disable Device, Knowledge (engineering)

The skill groups that each player chooses is a great way to define a character. Any character can take any of the skills individually, but your choice of skill groups at the start of the game provide a tangible benefit to having a deeper background by granting skill point efficiencies.


While I like the idea thematically, my concern is that there are so many different types of character backstories possible. One can come up with a plausible backstory to justify a background containing just about any combination of two or three skills one cares to name. If the number of available backgrounds is small, there are artificial limitations on character backstory, while a large enough number of them to avoid this problem would be unwieldy. I prefer a different solution that accomplishes a similar result with more customization possible on the part of the player: simply increasing the number of skill points they get. Giving a character two extra skill points per level (and 8 at 1st) can be used to give them two additional "free" mass-rank skills, just like a three-skill background of yours would.

All of my points here are entirely based on personal preference; from a balance perspective I think your modified skill system doesn't change much, and it will appeal to many people, especially those who prefer Pathfinder's system.