Suiting up, dropping anvils: Silly Shaper setup

[Morphic tide]

There's some interesting bits of RAW and RAI that, combined, lead me to think that Shaper is the second best Psion type. First is StP Erudite, obviously.

At any rate, the title refers to the two things that are central to this basic idea. The tag is me wanting to see how to make it better.

The two things central to this is an odd technicality that DMs can say no to regarding Astral Construct but fits what ought to be doable in-universe, and a silly thing that can be done with Creation spells and powers.

The "Suiting up" part is something that I've seen called ACMA, which is using normal Astral Constructs as power armor. Basically, what you do is declare that the Astral Construct is manifested around you, with a hollow cavity for you to stay in. This would, by logical house rules, prevent enemies from attacking you, and may prevent AoE attacks from harming you. Basically, anything that can't hit through Swallow Whole won't hit you because there's an Astral Construct in the way.

The "Dropping Anvils" is a silly thing doable with Major Creation. If you can get Osmium in-game, well, one casting of Major Creation will get you a 5 ft. cube of it. If that means five cubic feet, then it's 7,050 lbs. dropping. If it's 5 ft. across on each side, then you have 35,250 lbs. dropping. Alternatively, you can just use lead or iron, but that's much less damaging.

So, we need at least those two powers for this build. Obvious metapsionics include Twinned(improves PP efficiency of Astral Constructs considerably, provided you can) and Quickened, because of the needed speed in some cases and being able to use two powers in one turn. Other helpful things include the Psycarnum infinite PP trick, because you can never have too much PP to screw around with, and things that improve Astral Construct, because that's the main focus of the build.

Overchannel isn't nearly as much of a problem as usual, nor are any other "take damage for power" things, as the enemy has to get through an Astral Construct to hit you anyway. The build works at level two, due to Overchannel allowing 2nd level Astral Constructs, who are Medium sized.

Generally, this is a Psion who dumps everything possible into Astral Constructs, then uses whatever can't be dumped into Astral Constructs on things that do not need LoE. Due to the way ACMA works, personal melee power doesn't matter unless it can be made part of the Construct's abilities.

So, consider this an optimization challenge of how much you can get out of using Astral Construct as a suit of armor. Try to give builds and some unusual things they can do. I may, eventually, make my own build for a basic version.

[ATalsen]

The "Suiting up" part is something that I've seen called ACMA, which is using normal Astral Constructs as power armor.

I love psionics, and Astral Constructs, but the ‘Astral Construct power armor’ is a case of “It doesn’t say I can’t”, which is always a bad rules interpretation. Nothing in astral construct says you can make it hollow OR that another creature can fit inside it. There are in fact rules for creatures sharing the same space and they boil down to ‘you cannot’, so unless there is specific text that allows you to share its space (and there is no such text), then you are breaking the rules trying this.


Ending Your Movement
You can’t end your movement in the same square as another creature unless it is helpless.

Even if you could share the space, and treat it like a suit of armor, it still would just be armor and would not prevent opponents from targeting you. For example, the only wearable creatures I know about are Symbionts, and the Living Breastplate does indeed have special text that lets it be worn: “Armor (Ex): When the living breastplate is worn, the host is considered to be wearing medium armor”, but it still doesn’t’block Line of Effect to the wearer, which is what you seem to imply the Astral Construct would do.

So, the two points of issue are 1) Sharing space, 2) Blocking Line of Effect.

If your DM likes the idea of of power armor and allows you to share your constructs space, that might be ok. It’s pretty much a game breaker to allow a construct to block line of effect, though.

That said, if you know its not RAI/RAW and you still want to move forward with it, then go for it, its your game!

[Morphic tide]

I love psionics, and Astral Constructs, but the ‘Astral Construct power armor’ is a case of “It doesn’t say I can’t”, which is always a bad rules interpretation. Nothing in astral construct says you can make it hollow OR that another creature can fit inside it. There are in fact rules for creatures sharing the same space and they boil down to ‘you cannot’, so unless there is specific text that allows you to share its space (and there is no such text), then you are breaking the rules trying this.


Ending Your Movement
You can’t end your movement in the same square as another creature unless it is helpless.

Even if you could share the space, and treat it like a suit of armor, it still would just be armor and would not prevent opponents from targeting you. For example, the only wearable creatures I know about are Symbionts, and the Living Breastplate does indeed have special text that lets it be worn: “Armor (Ex): When the living breastplate is worn, the host is considered to be wearing medium armor”, but it still doesn’t’block Line of Effect to the wearer, which is what you seem to imply the Astral Construct would do.

So, the two points of issue are 1) Sharing space, 2) Blocking Line of Effect.

If your DM likes the idea of of power armor and allows you to share your constructs space, that might be ok. It’s pretty much a game breaker to allow a construct to block line of effect, though.

That said, if you know its not RAI/RAW and you still want to move forward with it, then go for it, its your game!

Well, it's a few layers of logic.

Step one: There's nothing saying what shape the Astral Construct has to be. At all, so it can be assumed that you can shape it with an open space inside.

Step two: There's nothing specifically saying that you cannot manifest the construct around you. Combined with step one, you can have a hollow space inside the construct for you to be in.

Step three: If there is a solid object in the way, then things that need LoE ought to be blocked. So what if the object is a creature? RAI covers this sort of thing, and RAW's closest counterpart to the situation, Devour Whole, does block LoE.

It's silly justifications, but they exist and are well within logical limits. It's a case of taking theoretical applications that the rules do not entirely exclude until you get past a point where the rules are nonsensical when followed and making them the entire point of a build.

[ATalsen]

Step one: There's nothing saying …
Step two: There's nothing specifically …

Step three: If there is a solid object in the way, then things that need LoE ought to be blocked. So what if the object is a creature?


For the first 2, I thought I was clear in saying that “It doesn’t say I cannot” was always a bad rules argument. Additionally, I provided an example movement rule specifically SAYING you cannot share spaces, so that’s all I can address there.

I mean, why is it that we never see a regular summoner try to summon an elephant and do the same thing? An elephant is 2 sizes larger than most PCs, and has a stomach, right, so can’t the caster just get inside it?

Now, I HAVE seen something about riding inside a creature with swallow whole. But you know what, that makes rules sense, and also has a bunch of complications that are conveniently ignored with the astral power armor.

Let’s say you get the construct around you. Nothing says it doesn’t crush you as it moves. Nothing says you can breathe inside it. Nothing says you can see anything from inside it. In fact, if you assume it blocks line of effect – because as you say, its solid - you pretty much have to assume no air and no vision.

The assumptions have to keep compiling until the whole thing is kind of pointless.

[Morphic tide]

For the first 2, I thought I was clear in saying that “It doesn’t say I cannot” was always a bad rules argument. Additionally, I provided an example movement rule specifically SAYING you cannot share spaces, so that’s all I can address there.
Clearly you don't understand just how far people take wording. One of the biggest things about TO is ignoring sense and RAI to get away with as much as possible. This is taking what isn't stated as an impossibility and being reasonable with it's implications.

I mean, why is it that we never see a regular summoner try to summon an elephant and do the same thing? An elephant is 2 sizes larger than most PCs, and has a stomach, right, so can’t the caster just get inside it?
Well, if you can justify summoning on the space you occupy and being where the elephant's stomach will be located, then you have most of the same complications as Swallowed Whole tends to. Ignoring the fact that Elephants likely do not have a stomach large enough to hold a Medium sized creature in, of course.

Now, I HAVE seen something about riding inside a creature with swallow whole. But you know what, that makes rules sense, and also has a bunch of complications that are conveniently ignored with the astral power armor.
Well, it's the DM's job to keep the game entertaining. And if the DM declares added complications, like you did, then the player can propose solutions to those complications, much like how players dealt with Swallow Whole's problems.

Let’s say you get the construct around you. Nothing says it doesn’t crush you as it moves. Nothing says you can breathe inside it. Nothing says you can see anything from inside it. In fact, if you assume it blocks line of effect – because as you say, its solid - you pretty much have to assume no air and no vision..
Nothing says that the crushing can't be solved by being in an inert cavity with no motion around it(though that increases the size needed to Large, if you want to stay reasonable and have this cavity in the largely-immobile ribcage-counterpart). Nothing says that you can't use one of the many, many forms of negating oxygen needs. Nothing says that you can't have a transparent part around your face or use some form of sense sharing to use the construct's senses.

The only two assumptions made is that you can control the shape of an Astral Construct enough to have a hollow cavity and being able to shape the construct around you, assumptions that make considerably more sense for Astral Construct that they do for Summon Monster. From there, logic is being used to ignore the RAW that makes it impossible, because if we didn't then Swallow Whole would have issues because it doesn't specifically bypass the restriction you stated with movement.

Now, can we get on to the optimizing?

[icefractal]

I think forming it around you is dubious, but making one with a hollow space seems to be on pretty solid ground. You can use an Anklet of Translocation to get inside.

And being inside another creature is something that could happen anyway - see Swallow Whole.

Psionic Major Creation takes a minute to manifest. The fastest you'll get is using Linked Power to have it go off at the start of your next turn. At ML9, it would be nine cubic feet - ie. slight bigger than a 2x2x2 cube, not even close to a 5' cube (125 cubic feet). The critical thing to that strategy is whether the Rules Compendium rules on falling objects are being used, as those ones cap it to 20d6 including weight. Also note that a DC 15 Reflex save negates, so its better used for slower/immobilized foes.


I agree with the general point though, which is that Shaper is awesome. :smallbiggrin:
Burrowing Power is something that goes great with being inside an Astral Construct. Burrowing Touchsight so you can see out from inside it, then start throwing other powers out while your foes have no idea where they're coming from. Because of the +2PP cost, things that don't rely on maximum augmentation would be good picks. Psychic Meditation is definitely a feat you'll want.

[Morphic tide]

I think forming it around you is dubious, but making one with a hollow space seems to be on pretty solid ground. You can use an Anklet of Translocation to get inside.

And being inside another creature is something that could happen anyway - see Swallow Whole.
Yes, Swallow Whole is one of the things that makes the gimmic reasonable.

Psionic Major Creation takes a minute to manifest. The fastest you'll get is using Linked Power to have it go off at the start of your next turn. At ML9, it would be nine cubic feet - ie. slight bigger than a 2x2x2 cube, not even close to a 5' cube (125 cubic feet). The critical thing to that strategy is whether the Rules Compendium rules on falling objects are being used, as those ones cap it to 20d6 including weight. Also note that a DC 15 Reflex save negates, so its better used for slower/immobilized foes.
Well, even if the damage is not "Rock falls, things die" level, it can still be used to immobilize foes with the vast weight. Because we are still talking about things on the order of 4,000 lbs.


I agree with the general point though, which is that Shaper is awesome. :smallbiggrin:
Burrowing Power is something that goes great with being inside an Astral Construct. Burrowing Touchsight so you can see out from inside it, then start throwing other powers out while your foes have no idea where they're coming from. Because of the +2PP cost, things that don't rely on maximum augmentation would be good picks. Psychic Meditation is definitely a feat you'll want.

Finally, someone giving some build advice. Slight problem in that it increases setup time, but that's a very minor problem all things considered. Like the breathing issues. The most useful Psychic Meditation ability I see is Throat or Base, whichever has the manifesting score. Because the manifesting score is a rather important thing to boost, and the others are irrelevant because of the ACMA use or redundant with how easy it is to grab infinite PP.

If I may point out an odd option for PP gain. Strongheart Vest plus Bodyfeeder by reasonable RAW may give 2 PP per point of ability damage resistance per round. Strongheart Vest gives ability damage reduction, while Bodyfeeder causes ability damage to give PP. The SRD specifically calls it Ability Burn Damage, so Strongheart Vest might counter it. To get Essentia to invest, one can always use the Psycarnum feats, which can be gotten via Psionic bonus feats. Like the one that is involved in unlimited PP at the low, low cost of Psionic Concentration and a standard action for each charge.

Another feat that is a fundamental requirement, given the situation, is Boost Construct. It gives an extra ability to the Astral Cosnstruct. This allows for quicker access to the effective combinations, and makes it possible to have three list C abilities, which are the highest of the abilities Astral Constructs can have.

[DrMartin]

Burrowing Touchsight

is not a thing - or rather, is just redundant. Burrowing power allows you to manifest a power on a target behind a barrier. It does nothing to extend the effect of said power behind the barrier. The target of Touchsight is you, so unless there's a barrier between you and yourself, burrowing won't accomplish much :)

[Vogie]

Even if you can't manifest it around you, you can still play Titanfall with it - Dropping it into a location, then jumping into it, either into a hatch into the construct, or having it swallow you whole.

[icefractal]

The most useful Psychic Meditation ability I see is Throat or Base, whichever has the manifesting score. Because the manifesting score is a rather important thing to boost, and the others are irrelevant because of the ACMA use or redundant with how easy it is to grab infinite PP.Whoops! I meant Psionic Meditation - the one which lets you regain focus as a move action.

Interesting point on Touchsight. I've seen someone using it that way, but they may have been doing it wrong. Another option would be Sense Link, although that would require a Concentration-assist method like Solicit Psicrystal or Sonorous Hum.

[Morphic tide]

Whoops! I meant Psionic Meditation - the one which lets you regain focus as a move action.

That is extremely strong here, given that there will be almost no uses for Move Actions otherwise. Because the construct is doing the movement.

[ATalsen]

I think forming it around you is dubious, but making one with a hollow space seems to be on pretty solid ground. You can use an Anklet of Translocation to get inside.

Using an Anklet of Translocation to get 'inside' would not work, if the inside were in fact no-LOS/no-LOE, because Anklet of Translocation requires LOS & LOE to the target destination.

*Just* making an Astral Construct with a hollow portion to it is probably legal. According to Complete Psionic it takes a Sculpting craft check to change how a construct looks (as far as I know, they are the only rules that allow such customization of an Astral Construct).

There are mount rules that cover riding another creature, so if you used those, and just 'carved out a spot' to ride in as a mount, then you have something clearly within the rules.

If your just treating the construct as a mount, then using the Anklet of Translocation to mount it should be reasonable, as mounts don't block LOS/LOE.