How is Magic Initiate so popular?

[Dalebert]

Off the top of my head, this strikes me as the worst feat. If I were to go through the list, maybe I could find one I consider to be less of a waste of a precious feat slot but this is the one that keep coming up and baffling me because other people seem to like it and they keep recommending it for certain builds. I just can't think of any build where this makes sense, except maybe as an extremely costly and sub-optimal choice for flavor purposes. If they made it so the 1st level spell was known and could be recast with spell slots, I think that would upgrade it from "never take this" to "kinda okay".

In just about any case where I feel like I need a couple cantrips and a spell, a one level dip seems to make more sense. Then I'm just delaying my class features by one level, including more feats, and I'm getting a lot more for that level dip.

[Tanarii]

Because it's a way to add a huge range of options. And optimizing is all about finding ways to put together options to find a trick that works. Even if it's limited use. And the majority of times you see posts about 'builds', it's an optimizer posting.

Basically, the same reason that Multiclassing and Feats are hugely popular, even though they're technically optional rules. (For example, if AL tried limiting either I doubt it would probably have never gotten off the ground.)

Also, since SCAG came out with GFB & BB, it's a much bigger force multiplier than before. Those cantrips are significantly more powerful than most others in any build that's melee-oriented single-attack, and even many Extra Attack builds.

[JeenLeen]

I've heard of it as a good way for Clerics to get the Shilligah (um... whatever the right spelling is) cantrip, so that they can use Wisdom for melee attacks. Good for a melee-based cleric so they can dump Str and Dex yet still get good accuracy & damage with melee attacks.
Also a good way for someone to get Eldritch Blast, if they want a good attack cantrip without multiclassing to warlock. Though if someone had enough Cha to use it well, they might be better off MCing into warlock.

But I'm personally not a big fan. Just those are the top things I've heard. If I wanted some spellcasting, I'd probably pick up Ritual Caster.

[DireSickFish]

It's a great way to add spells to your spell list without multiclassing. EG: Shield, Cure Wounds, Sheleligh.

It also offers good damage cantrips to classes that don't have decent ranged options.

Most feats don't really add much raw power to a class and tend to be picked up for utility. Magic Initiate adds a ton of utility.

[Joe the Rat]

Some selling points

1. You can't dip at level one (being human is awesome). You want to be a rogue with hex and a booming blade in your pocket? Does your Monk really favor wisdom, and give out a little guidance (and the occasional thorny vine)? Does your to-be-totem barbarian want a familiar? Start with it.
2. Dipping is delaying; dipping before 5 hurts. 5 is when signature elements come into play (extra attack and 3rd level spells - Fireball!), and you may not want to delay that. nonhumans are delaying an ASI to do this, so there's a definite tradeoff.
3. No fluff BS. No patrons, no appeasing deities, no having to avoid metal armor while swinging your enchanted walking stick. Take the goodberries and run!
4. 13 is an awful lot of points for a dump stat. Unless you are going for attack and save cantrips (or spell), you don't need good INT/WIS/CHA (depending on the list) for the spells. Why invest in a stat you won't use (and a level) to get a handful of tools?
5. Adds to spells known. If you are a caster, picking your own class, you do get to cast it with your regular slots... but that bonus slot is only for the spell. If you aren't a sorcerer, you might want more cantrips. (This might be a sage ruling).
6. Sage Ruling: Counts as a caster of that class, without the tedious training. 13th level Thief is a long ways away. Get that wand running now!
7. Spell sniper required casting: You just came here for attack cantrips. The 1st level slot is an extra.

[INDYSTAR188]

Most feats don't really add much raw power to a class and tend to be picked up for utility. Magic Initiate adds a ton of utility.

I don't know, when I think about Magic Initiate vs Polearm Master or Great Weapon Master, all three seem like reasonable ways to improve your power. I know that is a small sampling to be describing 'most feats' but still... I think plenty of feats have significant effects on a character's power level (which is probably pretty subjective).

[Dalebert]

"A ton"? of utility? See that's where it loses me. Is it potentially useful? Of course. But the cost...

That cost is whatever you could have taken instead but didn't. I can't think of a case where I'm not passing up substantially better alternatives for it and it just seems so subpar to practically all the other feats OR there's a cheaper way to get the particular thing you want. In fact, I always seem to have a list of feats I want really badly along with the painful realization that it will be a very long time before I get even the 3rd one on my list.

For instance, I can't imagine a melee-oriented rogue passing up Mobile or Sentinel (depending on style) and leaving Dex at 16 or 17 until 12th level just for Booming Blade. And if you're a swashbuckler, where BB could be really good, you probably already meet prereqs for a dip in sorcerer or warlock. ATs can get it without MI. Delaying other feats and other features by 1 level feels less expensive to me than delaying those feats by 4 levels.

If you're a full caster who already has decent attack cantrips, a feat isn't worth it for an arguably slightly better attack cantrip. If you're a bard (the one who has no good dmg cantrips) you can Magical Secrets it at 6th level for lore, and who cares for Valor because you're a gish with two attacks. Shoot arrows at them.

Fighters shouldn't take BB unless they're Eldritch Knights but EKs don't need the feat for BB.

I think part of the reason why it just makes no sense to me is because I'm a big fan of 1 level dips to expand versatility. I have three characters (bard, cleric, druid) who all dipped a level of wizard and have not regretted it for a moment. Meanwhile my sorcerer dipped a level of bard and got 4 extra spells on his otherwise very limited spells known, plus light armor, plus bardic inspiration, plus a skill, plus better weapon profs. Three of the spells are twinnable and they all remain useful through tier 4: Tasha's, Dissonant Whispers, Healing Word, and Feather Fall and he can cast them all he wants; not just once a day. Now my feats and class features happen one level later. *shrug* Was worth it for all of that.

So maybe that's why it seems so bad to me. I'm willing to make a sub-optimal choice for versatility but if I'm willing to do that, why not make the also sub-optimal but much more bang-for-the buck one level dip?

[rooneg]

It's a great way to add spells to your spell list without multiclassing. EG: Shield, Cure Wounds, Sheleligh.

Ok, sure on the Shillelagh bit, since it's a cantrip, but it's an absolute crap way to get Shield or Cure Wounds. Magic Initiate doesn't let you cast it with your regular spell slots, you get to cast it once a day.

[Dalebert]

Ok, sure on the Shillelagh bit, since it's a cantrip, but it's an absolute crap way to get Shield or Cure Wounds. Magic Initiate doesn't let you cast it with your regular spell slots, you get to cast it once a day.

Yes! As I mentioned, correcting that one serious flaw would upgrade it from extremely subpar to kind of okay.

[Tanarii]

Eh, it's all about opportunity cost. For some people an ASI/Feat is less opportunity cost to trade than a 1 level dip, assuming both are options. Or a sub-class choice. Or a Race choice (ie High Elf for a cantrip). Or whatever. For others it isn't worth the opportunity cost. It really depends what your optimization goals are for any given build.

[Deleted]

Off the top of my head, this strikes me as the worst feat. If I were to go through the list, maybe I could find one I consider to be less of a waste of a precious feat slot but this is the one that keep coming up and baffling me because other people seem to like it and they keep recommending it for certain builds. I just can't think of any build where this makes sense, except maybe as an extremely costly and sub-optimal choice for flavor purposes. If they made it so the 1st level spell was known and could be recast with spell slots, I think that would upgrade it from "never take this" to "kinda okay".

In just about any case where I feel like I need a couple cantrips and a spell, a one level dip seems to make more sense. Then I'm just delaying my class features by one level, including more feats, and I'm getting a lot more for that level dip.

I tend to see this feat used in conjunction with martials. To give them that added option at level 1 or to make a "complete" character without needing to wait three fricken levels.

Want to be an Eldritch Knight? Well, at level 1 the Variant Human Fighter can pick up some arcane spells (int or cha) and have their character complete. They can start shooting off firebolts or poison sprays.

A Variant Human Warlock may grab Shocking Grasp through the feat so they don't have to multiclass. A Cainlock with Shocking Grasp is fun to play as people (allies and DM) tend to forget that you have access to that cantrip.

[Quoxis]

"A ton"? of utility? See that's where it loses me. Is it potentially useful? Of course. But the cost...

That cost is whatever you could have taken instead but didn't. I can't think of a case where I'm not passing up substantially better alternatives for it and it just seems so subpar to practically all the other feats OR there's a cheaper way to get the particular thing you want. In fact, I always seem to have a list of feats I want really badly along with the painful realization that it will be a very long time before I get even the 3rd one on my list.

For instance, I can't imagine a melee-oriented rogue passing up Mobile or Sentinel (depending on style) and leaving Dex at 16 or 17 until 12th level just for Booming Blade. And if you're a swashbuckler, where BB could be really good, you probably already meet prereqs for a dip in sorcerer or warlock. ATs can get it without MI. Delaying other feats and other features by 1 level feels less expensive to me than delaying those feats by 4 levels.

If you're a full caster who already has decent attack cantrips, a feat isn't worth it for an arguably slightly better attack cantrip. If you're a bard (the one who has no good dmg cantrips) you can Magical Secrets it at 6th level for lore, and who cares for Valor because you're a gish with two attacks. Shoot arrows at them.

Fighters shouldn't take BB unless they're Eldritch Knights but EKs don't need the feat for BB.

I think part of the reason why it just makes no sense to me is because I'm a big fan of 1 level dips to expand versatility. I have three characters (bard, cleric, druid) who all dipped a level of wizard and have not regretted it for a moment. Meanwhile my sorcerer dipped a level of bard and got 4 extra spells on his otherwise very limited spells known, plus light armor, plus bardic inspiration, plus a skill, plus better weapon profs. Three of the spells are twinnable and they all remain useful through tier 4: Tasha's, Dissonant Whispers, Healing Word, and Feather Fall and he can cast them all he wants; not just once a day. Now my feats and class features happen one level later. *shrug* Was worth it for all of that.

So maybe that's why it seems so bad to me. I'm willing to make a sub-optimal choice for versatility but if I'm willing to do that, why not make the also sub-optimal but much more bang-for-the buck one level dip?

You're still able to get your capstone feature with magic Initiate, multiclassing makes that impossible.
Also assuming only certain classes want certain spells is a little arrogant. If you're a monk you'll generally want to focus on Wis, Dex and Con (not necessarily in that order). Multiclassing into anything else than fighter, rogue, Druid or Cleric is simply not viable unless you rolled your stats (and rolled good), but sacrificing an ASI at a higher level to get useful cantrips (booming blade? Eldritch blast? Shillelagh? Minor Illusion? Anything else?) seems less hurtful to me.
The 1/day restriction on the 1st lvl spell is annoying and i'd probably remove it if i ever were to dm, but getting "find familiar" with it is awesome as you'll only need it once or at least once every few days anyway.
Of course there are objectively stronger feats when it comes to damage output etc., but A) there are way worse feats (grappler, or the one giving you proficiency with 4(!) weapons, just to name a few) and B) why are people playing Rangers then if they're not optimized? Because the game isn't solely about having the hardest punches.

[Foxhound438]

it's all about buffing spells

The first thing that comes to mind is monk with hex, since you get 4 attacks at level 5 you get the most return out of the spell possible

a lot of cantrips are worth having as well, from ranged options for paladins to shilelagh on clerics to weapon cantrips for rogues, there's plenty of good things to pick up here.

[JellyPooga]

It's a Feat that's great to take at lvl.1 as a Variant Human, it's still pretty solid at lvl.4 to pick up those Cantrips and a lvl.1 spell 1/day. After that...well, it gets progressively worse as the value of those cantrips and that single lvl.1 spell decreases. However, most games rarely go beyond 10th level and when you compare it to +1 to hit, damage, AC, Skills or whatever else you might have got from taking a +2 ASI, the value is pretty clearly in favour of the Feat in those pre-10 levels. It's hard to quantify, because mostly what you get is utility and non-combat application, compared to a verifiable combat boost (how do you compare Mage Hand to +1 to hit and damage, for instance?), but in some cases it can be. Greenflame Blade, for instance, gives a verifiable increase to damage that's much greater than the mere +1 from increasing Str or Dex. Yes, you lose out on other aspects, but because you're never really looking for any DC much higher than 20, ASI's have a very limited scope and as a "passive" increase, can often also be seen as the "less fun" option. When you include some of the oh-so-common "set [stat] to 19" Magic Items (yes, I appreciate that this is GM/game dependent, but how often have you honestly ever played a campaign that hasn't included at least one?), that ASI starts looking even less tempting.

Then there's the question of other Feats. Many of the "best" feats don't really apply to many characters; what's a Rogue going to do with Great Weapon Master, for example? If that Rogue wants a solid improvement to his damage output in melee, Sharpshooter won't help, nor will Crossbow Expert. Sentinel is great for Rogues, but requires a certain play style that may not suit a given player; perhaps he just wants to play "easy mode" and not have to constantly track OA's, maybe he doesn't want to Tank...Sentinel isn't for every Rogue. If we're not Tanking with Sentinel, then Mobile is great, but maybe we feel that Cunning Action does enough for our skirmishing ability; perhaps the GM isn't a big fan of huge encounter spaces. Then there's Lucky. Great Feat, sure, but only 3/day. "Ah-hah!" I hear you cry "Magic Initiate only gives a 1/day effect" and you'd be right, but the primary benefit of MI isn't the 1st level spell, but the Cantrips, which are usable as many times a day as you like. What other Feat might our sort-of-skirmishy-melee-Rogue take, then, to improve his melee damage? Charger? Not likely. Dual Wielder? Probably not. Magic Initiate? Increase DPR with GFB/BB and some extra utility? Where do I sign up?

I've only discussed Rogue here, but similar arguments can be made for pretty much every Class that isn't a Full-Caster already and even then there's some fringe cases (Sorcerer that wants Eldritch Blast, Cleric that wants Shillelagh, etc.).

[Zene]

In brief:

-Shillelagh is a huge boost for some builds.
-Find Familiar is a huge boost for some builds.
-BB and GFB are huge boosts for some builds.
-An extra spell known and two more cantrips in your own class is a decent boost for some builds.

The alternate options to getting these --either dipping, or choosing a race or subclass just to get them--is in many cases a worse tradeoff than just spending a feat.

[Syll]

Ok, sure on the Shillelagh bit, since it's a cantrip, but it's an absolute crap way to get Shield or Cure Wounds. Magic Initiate doesn't let you cast it with your regular spell slots, you get to cast it once a day.

That is not entirely correct;

Magic Initiate will let you cast your gained 1st level spell with your existing spell slots (in addition to the free 1/day) if either of 2 criteria are met

A) It's a spell that's already on your spell list (so say, a spells-known starved Sorcerer could get an additional spell known from their spell list)

-OR-

B) The wording of your class feature does not specify that you must use Class spells with your slots. (I.e. Cleric spellcasting specifies that you prepare cleric spells in cleric slots). What this means is that Bard, Ranger, EK and AT can use their slots for the spell known via Magic Initiate.

Edit: Source: https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/637669202036322304


Official rulings on how to interpret unclear rules are made in Sage Advice. The public statements of the D&D team, or anyone else at Wizards of the Coast, are not official rulings; they are advice. One exception: the game’s rules manager, Jeremy Crawford (@JeremyECrawford), can make official rulings and usually does so in Sage Advice and on Twitter.

So whereas PHB errata says:


Magic Initiate (p. 168).
The feat’s limit on casting the 1st-level spell applies only to the casting given by the feat.

The SA Compendium goes on to say:

If you have spell slots, can you use them to cast the 1st-
level spell you learn with the Magic Initiate feat?

Yes, but only if the class you pick for the feat is one of your classes. For example, if you pick sorcerer and you are a sorcerer, the Spellcasting feature for that class tells you that you can use your spell slots to cast the sorcerer spells you know, so you can use your spell slots to cast the 1st-level sorcerer spell you learn from Magic Initiate. Similarly, if you are a wizard and pick that class for the feat, you learn a 1st-level wizard spell, which you could add to your spellbook and subsequently prepare.
In short, you must follow your character’s normal spellcasting rules, which determine whether you can expend spell slots on the 1st-level spell you learn from Magic Initiate.

Although I emphasize, I think Crawford ruling it this way is asinine.

[Waazraath]

In brief:

-Shillelagh is a huge boost for some builds.
-Find Familiar is a huge boost for some builds.
-BB and GFB are huge boosts for some builds.
-An extra spell known and two more cantrips in your own class is a decent boost for some builds.

The alternate options to getting these --either dipping, or choosing a race or subclass just to get them--is in many cases a worse tradeoff than just spending a feat.

This is a very good summary. Besides, if you are in a party that doen't have access to a spell like mage hand, it's very nice to have, and if you don't have a party member that can cast illusions, the minor illusion cantrip is very nice to have.

[SaintRidley]

With an EK I will always consider it. Sure I don't need it for Booming Blade, but nabbing an extra 1st level spell that doesn't have to be Abjuration or Conjuration and a few more utilitarian cantrips is always a temptation.

[Deleted]

With an EK I will always consider it. Sure I don't need it for Booming Blade, but nabbing an extra 1st level spell that doesn't have to be Abjuration or Conjuration and a few more utilitarian cantrips is always a temptation.

If you go champion or Battle Master you get 80% of the EK while having 100% of the other archetype until like level 10-ish.

EK and AT are really stretched out too far.

[SaintRidley]

If you go champion or Battle Master you get 80% of the EK while having 100% of the other archetype until like level 10-ish.

EK and AT are really stretched out too far.

Meh. If I'm playing Champion, I'm not feeling the magic mojo. No interest in Magic Initiate there. If I'm playing Battlemaster... well, personally I'm probably not playing Battlemaster. It doesn't interest me much. If I'm playing EK, I'll probably take Magic Initiate if I'm running a Human as my starting feat. I might consider it at level 4 with a different race, but I'm probably prioritizing War Caster and possibly Ritual Caster well above it, at which point I might just let it pass by. Maybe grab Linguist instead at that point.

[jas61292]

While this is certainly not an from an optimization standpoint, another reason it is a popular feat is it simply allows a character do do cool things they couldn't otherwise do. A first level spell might not be powerful, but a small splash of magic on someone who doesn't get any (or only gets a different kind of magic) can completely change the way a character feels. I personally took this feat on a battlemaster fighter to grab Dancing Lights, Gust and Featherfall. Not much of a power boost, but really gave my character the feel I wanted.

Also, for the record, Dancing Lights is so much better when it is literally your only concentration spell, and you have Con save proficiency to boot.

[Deleted]

Meh. If I'm playing Champion, I'm not feeling the magic mojo. No interest in Magic Initiate there. If I'm playing Battlemaster... well, personally I'm probably not playing Battlemaster. It doesn't interest me much. If I'm playing EK, I'll probably take Magic Initiate if I'm running a Human as my starting feat. I might consider it at level 4 with a different race, but I'm probably prioritizing War Caster and possibly Ritual Caster well above it, at which point I might just let it pass by. Maybe grab Linguist instead at that point.

The point isn't what you specifically like but what is mechanically possible.

If a new player joined the game and wantes to play an EK... I would give them a champion with magic initiate so that they learn pretty much everything the fame has to offer.

Champion: learn all martial stuff sans bonus actions (fighter needs bonus actions)

Magic Initiate: learn magic rules except for rituals.

[Specter]

Worst feat? Have you taken a look at Charger?

Just getting at-will cantrips and qualifying as a spellcaster for attunement sell the feat in itself. The first-level spell is just icing on the cake.

[Ovarwa]

Hi,

Adding to the benefits already listed:

* 1/day Feather Fall is great on a flying species. More is better, but 1/day usually does the trick.
* Undo the injustice of depriving Rangers (and Paladins, I guess) of their cantrips. And the deeper injustice of Rangers knowing so few spells. (Why don't Rangers already get Druidcraft, huh? Druid Initiate to the rescue. Str Paladin wants a good ranged attack? EB. Etc.)
* Rogues who aren't Arcane Tricksters can get Mage Hand and other goodies. UA Swashbucklers get another way to use Cha.
* Variant Human Arcana and Nature Clerics start with *even more* cantrips at level 1! (Arcana kind of likes the ever-popular Shill+BB based on Wisdom, but other great choices abound.)

Is it the best Feat? Usually not. But there are so many ways to use it, of course it is popular.

Anyway,

Ken

[ChubbyRain]

Worst feat? Have you taken a look at Charger?

Just getting at-will cantrips and qualifying as a spellcaster for attunement sell the feat in itself. The first-level spell is just icing on the cake.

I'm not 100% but I think the only class that really gets any use out of charger would be cleric. Any domain that gives you bonus damage to weapon damage but not an extra attack feature...

Tempest Cleric w/charger is what I think I saw worked.

Weapon Master is perhaps the worst frat out there, I would just take the +2 Str/Dex and the single die decrease in damage than pick it up as a feat.


Tempest Cleric: 2d6 + STR + 5 + 1d8 on a charge. With GWM and Bless (mostly cancels out the penalty) you get +10 more damage and possibly another attack.

I feel like shillelagh would work well with charger so you can Wis Charge.

[Temperjoke]

I like it for the flavoring options:

"Well, my ex-wife was a druid and I picked up a couple of tricks before we divorced."
"I'm a wizard school drop out."
"As much magic as there is, it's harder to not pick up a little magic, than to learn some basic stuff."

[Davemeddlehed]

Off the top of my head, this strikes me as the worst feat. If I were to go through the list, maybe I could find one I consider to be less of a waste of a precious feat slot but this is the one that keep coming up and baffling me because other people seem to like it and they keep recommending it for certain builds. I just can't think of any build where this makes sense, except maybe as an extremely costly and sub-optimal choice for flavor purposes. If they made it so the 1st level spell was known and could be recast with spell slots, I think that would upgrade it from "never take this" to "kinda okay".

In just about any case where I feel like I need a couple cantrips and a spell, a one level dip seems to make more sense. Then I'm just delaying my class features by one level, including more feats, and I'm getting a lot more for that level dip.

What if you don't have the stats to multiclass into a spellcasting class that has the cantrips/spell you want for your character? What if you play a Monk who's fluff would benefit from mage hand, or message, but you don't have a 13 in INT or CHA to get them? Is it worth spending multiple ASI's to get them? I don't think it is.

[ChubbyRain]

What if you don't have the stats to multiclass into a spellcasting class that has the cantrips/spell you want for your character? What if you play a Monk who's fluff would benefit from mage hand, or message, but you don't have a 13 in INT or CHA to get them? Is it worth spending multiple ASI's to get them? I don't think it is.

Fluff? FLUFF? Who the he'll plays this game with fluff? /s

[Master O'Laughs]

I know one character idea is to be a variant human life cleric and take magic initiate for shillelagh and goodberry. at lvl 1 that is 40 points of healing from a lvl 1 spell.

[Gignere]

In brief:

-Shillelagh is a huge boost for some builds.
-Find Familiar is a huge boost for some builds.
-BB and GFB are huge boosts for some builds.
-An extra spell known and two more cantrips in your own class is a decent boost for some builds.

The alternate options to getting these --either dipping, or choosing a race or subclass just to get them--is in many cases a worse tradeoff than just spending a feat.

Getting both Find Familiar and BB/GFB for rogues at level 1 is broken. It is kind of like sleep at level 1 for arcane casters.

[ChubbyRain]

Getting both Find Familiar and BB/GFB for rogues at level 1 is broken. It is kind of like sleep at level 1 for arcane casters.

Lol

No, no it is not.

Your DM needs to actually try.

[Gignere]

Lol

No, no it is not.

Your DM needs to actually try.

Permanent advantage and no he tries but permanent advantage is huge at level 1.

[ChubbyRain]

Permanent advantage and no he tries but permanent advantage is huge at level 1.

It is NOT permanent in the slightest.

Only a lazy DM or one that doesn't care that the rogue is getting advantage would allow that to happen too much. A single ready action is all it takes to get rid of that spell for 24 hours-ish hours.

http://www.5esrd.com/gamemastering/combat/#Ready

[Doug Lampert]

It is NOT permanent in the slightest.

Only a lazy DM or one that doesn't care that the rogue is getting advantage would allow that to happen too much. A single ready action is all it takes to get rid of that spell for 24 hours-ish hours.

http://www.5esrd.com/gamemastering/combat/#Ready
24 hours? Why would it be that long? I haven't cast the spell already today after all.

Additionally, you need to hit.

Finally, if you ready to attack my familiar I can just ignore you and hit someone else, while laughing at you. (If there is no one else to attack then I ready to attack when you attack, and we stand there facing each other doing nothing while my party annihilates you.)

None of this is at all obscure. Why in the world would anyone think it takes only a single action to get rid of a familiar for 24ish hours?

[Gignere]

It is NOT permanent in the slightest.

Only a lazy DM or one that doesn't care that the rogue is getting advantage would allow that to happen too much. A single ready action is all it takes to get rid of that spell for 24 hours-ish hours.

http://www.5esrd.com/gamemastering/combat/#Ready

If the DM ready an attack you just allowed me to freely run off without even taking an AOO. Remember if I see you readying an attack I just tell my familiar to not help mental communication, which is even better because you just lost all DPR and I am just wailing on you.

[Sigreid]

It's really just like any other choice in the game. You have to decide what you want to do and if the price of not being able to do something else is worth it to you. It's solid, it's not a must have.

[ChubbyRain]

If the DM ready an attack you just allowed me to freely run off without even taking an AOO. Remember if I see you readying an attack I just tell my familiar to not help mental communication, which is even better because you just lost all DPR and I am just wailing on you.

Never met a DM that would tell their players what the enemies do lol. Wow, that's crazy!

That's like telling the rogue "dont worry about disengaging, the orc is attacking the fighter next round".

Y'all DMs need to step up their game.

[Rysto]

If the DM ready an attack you just allowed me to freely run off without even taking an AOO. Remember if I see you readying an attack I just tell my familiar to not help mental communication, which is even better because you just lost all DPR and I am just wailing on you.

Ready an action to attack the familiar if it comes within range, or the rogue if they attack, whichever happens first.

[Zene]

if you don't have a party member that can cast illusions, the minor illusion cantrip is very nice to have.

Oh, great point. Minor illusion might be the most powerful cantrip in the game. It alone could be worth one person in the party taking the feat.

[Gignere]

Never met a DM that would tell their players what the enemies do lol. Wow, that's crazy!

That's like telling the rogue "dont worry about disengaging, the orc is attacking the fighter next round".

Y'all DMs need to step up their game.

So we are fighting I attack mob, and the mob attacks me. Suddenly the mob stop attacking me because I had help from Familiar. Yeah it takes rocket science for me to figure out what the DM just did.

[Gignere]

Ready an action to attack the familiar if it comes within range, or the rogue if they attack, whichever happens first.

Too bad ready actions can only have one condition. Or else I will abuse the **** out of it as a player.

[Drackolus]

A barbarian with charger can pull off some shenanigans. There is a barbarian in our main group with charger and sentinel. It's rad.
I pretty much take magic initiate on every character I can get away with it on. Not always my first choice, but...
My rolled stat half-elf lore bard got an 18, a 17, and a 16. With a maxed cha at lvl 1, I was free to pick up ritual caster (wizard), m. Initiate (bard), and then at 12, spell sniper for EB. Having an extra spell known is pretty nice, even for a lore bard.
I've also got 8 cantrips now (half high elf), so that's pretty fun.
If you can get warcaster, BB becomes very powerful.

[Tanarii]

I'm just going to chime in with how as a DM, I fracking hate familiars & combat Help. Seriously, it's only with great effort that I restrain myself from intentionally killing off Wizards that try to use the spell that way. Luckily for me a highly lethal Combat-as-War sandbox self-selects against them, and they usually get themselves killed. Intelligent wizards don't risk a familar in combat often, when it's far better at keeping them alive by assisting with scouting.


Oh, great point. Minor illusion might be the most powerful cantrip in the game. It alone could be worth one person in the party taking the feat.Its very power for sounds, but not so powerful for visuals. It can only create visuals of objects, and only of ones that do not move around (see Silent Image for a spell that moves the illusion around). Don't get me wrong, it's really useful. But most people who think it's "the most power cantrip" think it can be used to, like, make any illusion they want. It's actually fairly strictly limited.

[Gignere]

I'm just going to chime in with how as a DM, I fracking hate familiars & combat Help. Seriously, it's only with great effort that I restrain myself from intentionally killing off Wizards that try to use the spell that way. Luckily for me a highly lethal Combat-as-War sandbox self-selects against them, and they usually get themselves killed. Intelligent wizards don't risk a familar in combat often, when it's far better at keeping them alive by assisting with scouting.

Its very power for sounds, but not so powerful for visuals. It can only create visuals of objects, and only of ones that do not move around (see Silent Image for a spell that moves the illusion around). Don't get me wrong, it's really useful. But most people who think it's "the most power cantrip" think it can be used to, like, make any illusion they want. It's actually fairly strictly limited.

Never bothered me when I DMed a tome warlock. If the encounter is getting too easy I just up my game why ruin the player's fun by intentionally nerfing the spell. The warlock eventually bit it anyway and not once did I stop him from using the Familiar to help in combat.

[JumboWheat01]

I like it for the flavoring options:

"Well, my ex-wife was a druid and I picked up a couple of tricks before we divorced."
"I'm a wizard school drop out."
"As much magic as there is, it's harder to not pick up a little magic, than to learn some basic stuff."

That's been my use for it so far, only on one character, a v.human 4e monk. Having Produce Flame and Thornwhip gave me "elemental" options all the time, regardless of ki remaining. Flavoring the flavor.

[Tanarii]

Never bothered me when I DMed a tome warlock. If the encounter is getting too easy I just up my game why ruin the player's fun by intentionally nerfing the spell. The warlock eventually bit it anyway and not once did I stop him from using the Familiar to help in combat.
I don't stop them either, although I strongly considered it. I just hate them. I'm not even going to try to claim it's rational. :smallwink:

And I said Combat as War. So the game doesn't get adjusted for how well or poorly the players are doing.

[Contrast]

Never met a DM that would tell their players what the enemies do lol. Wow, that's crazy!

That's like telling the rogue "dont worry about disengaging, the orc is attacking the fighter next round".

Y'all DMs need to step up their game.

Normally I'd agree with you (its pretty gamey to run out of combat because you know they just cast a shield spell or a rogue just used his uncanny dodge - though I guess thinking about it, it is easy enough to justify those as momentary distractions which you use to slip away). However in this case they're literally spending their action actively looking out for your familiar and readying to attack him rather than actively doing anything else. That is a visual thing which would be telegraphed.

That said, I've always been of the opinion that a familiar granting advantage thing is dumb. Honestly, in my opinion Find Familiar offers sufficient out of combat utility it doesn't even need any combat utility to be worth it.

[Hrugner]

Too bad ready actions can only have one condition. Or else I will abuse the **** out of it as a player.

You can make it general, like "the next time an enemy comes within range", but making it more complicated than that is off the table. I'm not sure what sort of DM would waste a whole turn nullifying advantage for one attack per round though. It wouldn't make sense for the NPC to make that decision, and it doesn't make mathematical sense unless the combat runs long or the opponent only has one attack. It's certainly not auto-advantage, but I can't think of too many situations where it would be worth taking out the familiar either.

[MustacheManny]

It's a pretty fun feat too. You could play an optimized fighter (which is perhaps a little dull) or you could be Frilik the Flame and have a little bit of fire magic for fun and fluff. You could be a rouge who started out life as a Cleric but left the faith for whatever reason but maintains their beliefs just enough to keep casting divine magic. It's really versatile for players who don't want to just min/max.

[Gignere]

You can make it general, like "the next time an enemy comes within range", but making it more complicated than that is off the table. I'm not sure what sort of DM would waste a whole turn nullifying advantage for one attack per round though. It wouldn't make sense for the NPC to make that decision, and it doesn't make mathematical sense unless the combat runs long or the opponent only has one attack. It's certainly not auto-advantage, but I can't think of too many situations where it would be worth taking out the familiar either.

Even setting that condition it doesn't work, because you are basically trading blows with the mob and suddenly it just stands there jacking off. You call off your familiar and you keep attacking because that trigger doesn't apply to the player character, the PC never left your range so it can't come within range. So your ready action is wasted, which is even more powerful than advantage. If I negate a dragon's breath or their multiattack because they readied an action to swat my familiar omg that is like f*cking gold. Hell I will let the familiar be killed what a great trade.

[Arkhios]

Magic Initiate is amazing as the Variant Human bonus feat.

Besides, you actually can "re-cast" the 1st-level spell using your spell slots, if the feat was taken for a class you have, or will take levels in. In that case it's just basically an additional spell known from your list, and you can cast it once more at 1st-level in addition to your regular spell-slots.

My better half took the feat for her sorcerer, because she wanted to be able to dish out lots and lots of magic missiles. Why? Because apparently it's fun that it deals solid damage every time you cast it, without checking first if it hits. (Barring those creatures or objects that are resistant or immune to force damage, which happen to be very rare)

[Ruslan]

Find Familiar by itself used to be an okay feat in 3.5. And it was only for spellcasters. And people still took it.

So now we have a feat that lets you learn any 1st level spell, which may be Find Familiar (or it may be something else, if your character is so inclined), and two at-will abilities. And you don't even have to be a spellcasting class. You can now have a familiar and a couple of cantrips, as an otherwise completely mundane character.

And people are complaining.

What is wrong with this picture?

[Rysto]

Didn't you get more feats in 3e, and they were comparatively less powerful?

[Addaran]

For the OP: Because it's fun and add new stuff that your character can do. Picking GWM, you're just hitting more and hitting harder, but it's things you're already doing all day long. With MI, you get to cast spell as a mundane or from a different type then your casting class.


Regarding Find Familliar:
I find it stupid that they can use help for attack advantage when they can't attack themselves. (only the chain warlock should be allowed to do that).

Even then, it's extremely easy to kill a familliar. First, the only familliar that can come near the enemy then run away without taking AoO is the Owl, anything else, he's stuck near the enemy and die in one hit. Secondly, they all have ridiculously low HP and crappy AC. Anything with a ranged attack will probably kill him in one hit (might miss, but less then 50% chance usually) Third, while some DM are nice and don't have aoe kill Familliar, most will if the familliar is actually part of the fight.

And from why would the monster target the familliar for "just" advantage on one attack? We're talking rogue in the example. That advantage translate into a sure sneak attack, the main part of their damage.

[Arkhios]

Didn't you get more feats in 3e, and they were comparatively less powerful.

Yes. In 3.5e you gained 1 feat at 1st level, then one at 3rd, 6th, 9th, 12th, 15th, and 18th levels. (Fighters got even more feats)

In Pathfinder they went well overboard with the amount of feats, and still felt like it wasn't enough (lol)
1st, 3rd, 5th, 7th, 9th, 11th, 13th, 15th, 17th, 19th. (fighter still got their ridiculous amount of bonus feats)

And, indeed, a single feat was worth approximately one bulletpoint of the 5th edition's feats. Then again, there were this idea of "feat chains", so that to make a dedicated dual wielder (for example), you had to take at the very least 3 feats. More if you wanted to be better than average dedicated dual wielder.

[ChubbyRain]

So we are fighting I attack mob, and the mob attacks me. Suddenly the mob stop attacking me because I had help from Familiar. Yeah it takes rocket science for me to figure out what the DM just did.

Yeah, its called being subtle.

Of course that creature may be taking the dodge action, may be doing something subtly, or may be taking the ready action.

Who knows.

Maybe the first thing that happens during a battle is that the bird gets shot because goblins know about wizards and their scary unnatural animals? (They don't know it belongs to the rogue)

Maybe a fireball or other AoE catchea the bird.

Don't pretend like everything has to work out exactly one way, the game is way too dynamic for that.

Hell, if you get in the right game that bird familiar may become pretty popular and other intelligent beings start using it against the group.

The world reacts to the players just as the players react to the world. Any DM that doesnt do that is either lazy or just doesn't care enough about their players (third option is they haven't learned to do such a thing, which is not great, but forgivable).

Like in the real world, you bring a new toy to market, people are going to replicate it and try to do it better.

[Gignere]

For the OP: Because it's fun and add new stuff that your character can do. Picking GWM, you're just hitting more and hitting harder, but it's things you're already doing all day long. With MI, you get to cast spell as a mundane or from a different type then your casting class.


Regarding Find Familliar:
I find it stupid that they can use help for attack advantage when they can't attack themselves. (only the chain warlock should be allowed to do that).

Even then, it's extremely easy to kill a familliar. First, the only familliar that can come near the enemy then run away without taking AoO is the Owl, anything else, he's stuck near the enemy and die in one hit. Secondly, they all have ridiculously low HP and crappy AC. Anything with a ranged attack will probably kill him in one hit (might miss, but less then 50% chance usually) Third, while some DM are nice and don't have aoe kill Familliar, most will if the familliar is actually part of the fight.

And from why would the monster target the familliar for "just" advantage on one attack? We're talking rogue in the example. That advantage translate into a sure sneak attack, the main part of their damage.

See this is where a prepared player can save his Familiar from a wrathful DM. Carry a container every time the familiar helps it flies/crawls into the container. Now it becomes carried by the PC so not legal target for AoE or attacks and since it never leaves the five foot square it doesn't trigger AOO. Now my favorite animal for Familiar is a bat, blind sight is crazy good at exposing hidden/invisible threats.

[Deleted]

See this is where a prepared player can save his Familiar from a wrathful DM. Carry a container every time the familiar helps it flies/crawls into the container. Now it becomes carried by the PC so not legal target for AoE or attacks and since it never leaves the five foot square it doesn't trigger AOO. Now my favorite animal for Familiar is a bat, blind sight is crazy good at exposing hidden/invisible threats.

Oooo disarm/steal the container from said PC and now the PC needs to take an action to dismiss the familiar (or need to wait and cast the spell again).

That would be two actions in combat to get the bird back. lol

(one to get it out of the container and one to get it back from the pocket dimension... if the creature didn't just bash the poor bird within the container)

[Aaron Underhand]

Too bad ready actions can only have one condition. Or else I will abuse the **** out of it as a player.

actually it's a lot simpler than that - the NPC just takes out the familiar with their first hit, and the rest of the combat proceeds as normal.

Never had a familiar last more than one round in combat... never understood how anyone did anything else....

[Gignere]

Oooo disarm/steal the container from said PC and now the PC needs to take an action to dismiss the familiar (or need to wait and cast the spell again).

That would be two actions in combat to get the bird back. lol

(one to get it out of the container and one to get it back from the pocket dimension... if the creature didn't just bash the poor bird within the container)

Only if you play with optional rules, also be my guest and steal it. DPR to 0 way better than PC having advantage. Even if monster is holding container it doesn't stop Familiar from flying out helping and flying back in. So now you need another action to throw the container away. Since most fights lasts 3 rounds having the BBEG waste two rounds getting rid of the familiar is basically a guaranteed win for he players.

[Contrast]

SNIP

I'm amused that its totally unreasonable for a PC to know when someone has readied an action (while they presumably stand scanning the sky looking for an owl) but totally reasonable for the DM to have enemies immediately stop attacking the people trying to stab them with swords or cast spells at them mid fight so they can murder an owl which is mildly irritating at best (they don't know how sneak attack mechanics work or the difference between a fighter/rogue/etc).

Ah god I just got brutally stabbed by this guy I'm fighting. Better kill that cowering, whimpering kobold, he's the real threat!

That said, if you're outnumbered and there are ranged combatants who notice its being a nuisance, someone will take a potshot at the owl and kill it. Of course by that point you've almost certainly got your moneys worth from a level 1 spell anyway.

As I said, personally not a tactic I particularly like. I would say you can't argue its not good but apparently you can so nevermind :smalltongue:

[Deleted]

Only if you play with optional rules, also be my guest and steal it. DPR to 0 way better than PC having advantage. Even if monster is holding container it doesn't stop Familiar from flying out helping and flying back in. So now you need another action to throw the container away. Since most fights lasts 3 rounds having the BBEG waste two rounds getting rid of the familiar is basically a guaranteed win for he players.

Optional rules... Like feats?

Besides it isn't like all creatures have great damage, some are better at other things.

The bird isn't flying out on someone else's turn.

Who said it was the BBEG doing this? Also, I don't know where that statistic came out of, but I've seen too many 1 HP globlins almost kill parties (due to not being able to hit the goblin) so... A hell of a lot of assumptions there buckerroo.

[Aaron Underhand]

Only if you play with optional rules, also be my guest and steal it. DPR to 0 way better than PC having advantage. Even if monster is holding container it doesn't stop Familiar from flying out helping and flying back in. So now you need another action to throw the container away. Since most fights lasts 3 rounds having the BBEG waste two rounds getting rid of the familiar is basically a guaranteed win for he players.

See here is my problem... Flyby attack doesn't mean 'flyby help'

...and familiars can't attack anyway, so I and the DMs I play with would rule they can't specifically "help" an attack action, as it is something they themselves can't do...

Yes they can distract and DM may deem that gives advantage, but anything distracts me in combat is getting eliminated.... and the Monsters I fight generally do the same. 10GP and loss of familiar is a penalty rarely worth paying.

They are MUCH more useful for scouting, and even then they tend to die, but that is worth it if you know what you're about to face.

A standard wizard's familiar is great, but it's not perma-advantage for a rogue... not in any table I've ever been at...

[Deleted]

See here is my problem... Flyby attack doesn't mean 'flyby help'

...and familiars can't attack anyway, so I and the DMs I play with would rule they can't specifically "help" an attack action, as it is something they themselves can't do...

Yes they can distract and DM may deem that gives advantage, but anything distracts me in combat is getting eliminated.... and the Monsters I fight generally do the same. 10GP and loss of familiar is a penalty rarely worth paying.

They are MUCH more useful for scouting, and even then they tend to die, but that is worth it if you know what you're about to face.

A standard wizard's familiar is great, but it's not perma-advantage for a rogue... not in any table I've ever been at...

Owl's flyby doesn't have anything to do with attacking, just about flying. (called flyby and mentions when they leave a creature's reach)

I haven't seen a player or DM fall to being so lazy as to keep using find familiar as a way to get advantage... There are so many other ways that doing one thing over and over becomes straight up boring.

Though the best way to negate this is to give disadvantage in some way. Frostbite and Vicious Mockery are awesome cantrips. There are many other ways to do this than using cantrips, but you get the picture :P

[Gignere]

See here is my problem... Flyby attack doesn't mean 'flyby help'

...and familiars can't attack anyway, so I and the DMs I play with would rule they can't specifically "help" an attack action, as it is something they themselves can't do...

Yes they can distract and DM may deem that gives advantage, but anything distracts me in combat is getting eliminated.... and the Monsters I fight generally do the same. 10GP and loss of familiar is a penalty rarely worth paying.

They are MUCH more useful for scouting, and even then they tend to die, but that is worth it if you know what you're about to face.

A standard wizard's familiar is great, but it's not perma-advantage for a rogue... not in any table I've ever been at...

Just say you don't play RAW so Find Familiar is weaker at your tables. RAW you can flyby help and RAW familiar can help even when it can't attack.

[Gignere]

Owl's flyby doesn't have anything to do with attacking, just about flying. (called flyby and mentions when they leave a creature's reach)

I haven't seen a player or DM fall to being so lazy as to keep using find familiar as a way to get advantage... There are so many other ways that doing one thing over and over becomes straight up boring.

Though the best way to negate this is to give disadvantage in some way. Frostbite and Vicious Mockery are awesome cantrips. There are many other ways to do this than using cantrips, but you get the picture :P

Well I guess you are endorsing people to not play martials. Martials just rolls attack over and over but according to you that is bad wrong fun since it is the same thing over and over again.

[Flashy]

I'm amused that its totally unreasonable for a PC to know when someone has readied an action (while they presumably stand scanning the sky looking for an owl) but totally reasonable for the DM to have enemies immediately stop attacking the people trying to stab them with swords or cast spells at them mid fight so they can murder an owl which is mildly irritating at best (they don't know how sneak attack mechanics work or the difference between a fighter/rogue/etc).

Ah god I just got brutally stabbed by this guy I'm fighting. Better kill that cowering, whimpering kobold, he's the real threat!

I dunno, I feel like if you're fighting a guy and there's this huge bird flapping in your face and being awfully distracting you're maybe gonna take a swipe at it just to get it to stop.

Not every NPC, probably not every round, and definitely not before it starts taking the help action, but I don't really have a problem with NPCs occasionally trying to kill the familiar that's actively interfering with their ability to defend themselves.

Basically I feel like there's a middle ground here. Familiars actively in combat are probably gonna die semi-regularly, but they'll be legitimately quite useful while they are there.

[Davemeddlehed]

Oooo disarm/steal the container from said PC and now the PC needs to take an action to dismiss the familiar (or need to wait and cast the spell again).

That would be two actions in combat to get the bird back. lol

(one to get it out of the container and one to get it back from the pocket dimension... if the creature didn't just bash the poor bird within the container)


Casting the spell again in that combat is all but impossible since Find Familiar takes 1 hour to cast.

[Deleted]

Well I guess you are endorsing people to not play martials. Martials just rolls attack over and over but according to you that is bad wrong fun since it is the same thing over and over again.

I prefer Tomb of Battle and 4e (some essentials like the Ranger) martials to 5e's lackluster martials. If you are set on playing a martial, you should really check those out first just to see how bad 5e treats martials.

There's a reason why I'm homebrewing a generic extraordinary based class.


Casting the spell again in that combat is all but impossible since Find Familiar takes 1 hour to cast.

That's the point.

[Hrugner]

I dunno, I feel like if you're fighting a guy and there's this huge bird flapping in your face and being awfully distracting you're maybe gonna take a swipe at it just to get it to stop.

Not every NPC, probably not every round, and definitely not before it starts taking the help action, but I don't really have a problem with NPCs occasionally trying to kill the familiar that's actively interfering with their ability to defend themselves.

Basically I feel like there's a middle ground here. Familiars actively in combat are probably gonna die semi-regularly, but they'll be legitimately quite useful while they are there.

My experience with it so far is that the familiar gets attacked if there are ranged combatants. As a player, I may also target a familiar if I was a ranged combatant. Readying an action to kill a familiar would be extremely wasteful as a player. If a DM was actively targeting familiars, I'd assume they were of the DM vs Player mind set and would welcome the warning.

[Deleted]

My experience with it so far is that the familiar gets attacked if there are ranged combatants. As a player, I may also target a familiar if I was a ranged combatant. Readying an action to kill a familiar would be extremely wasteful as a player. If a DM was actively targeting familiars, I'd assume they were of the DM vs Player mind set and would welcome the warning.

Depends on the situation and what exactly that familiar is helping with.

DMs targeting a familiar is not "DM versus Player", what's next, if a DM targets a PC with an attack or heaven forbid drops that character to 0 HP, will people will cry "DM versus Player"?

[JumboWheat01]

Depends on the situation and what exactly that familiar is helping with.

DMs targeting a familiar is not "DM versus Player", what's next, if a DM targets a PC with an attack or heaven forbid drops that character to 0 HP, will people will cry "DM versus Player"?

I'd say "DM stopping combat with others to attempt to kill said familiar" is "DM vs. Player."

"DM having monsters kill whatever they can based on proximity or other things of the like" is totally fair play.

[Drackolus]

Familiars are fair game to be targetted. I don't think putting them in an object makes them not be creatures. As for cover, that's always a judgment call. Hiding in a cloak seems legit in terms of them being behind half cover, but an owl is still too big to hide completely. I suppose you can just say it's an especially small owl... But full cover in a cloak with no spent movement or action (object interaction is still open though) just doesn't seem feasible. We're talking about an especially obedient bird, not clever or fast. You can assume it's exceedingly well trained, but not to class level standards. And, regardless, if it is on your person and you get hit with an aoe, the bird makes a save (and likely dies even if it succeeds). It could, of course, go behind walls, but a human (or goblin) intelligence creature can see that the owl is a threat and may chase it down if it thinks it's odds are good that it can catch it. Archers can aim for it too. Even if you grant it 3/4 cover on your person (which is still pretty generous since there's no precidence and a cloak doesn't really hide it any more than it hides the player), it's a relatively easy shot considering it's ac. Considering how easy the spell is, it is safe to assume that, in a world with wizards, there would be at least stories of wizards' animal spies watching people sleep. And, regardless, an annoying bird is an annoying bird. If it's a significant enough disturbance to grant a help action, the creature must see the creature doing it.
I think it works about as well as it should for a lvl 1 feature that costs 10g a pop. It even gives the caster some clever options, like casting invisibility on it.
If owls get a bit repeatative, it should be okay to give flyby to all familiars. All it changes at a glance is thematic variety.

[Deleted]

I'd say "DM stopping combat with others to attempt to kill said familiar" is "DM vs. Player."

"DM having monsters kill whatever they can based on proximity or other things of the like" is totally fair play.

If players are abusing the familiar in battle, it would be absolutely downright silly to not target the familiar.

Like... That might be more immersion breaking than anything else.

There is no DM versus Player in this situation. Not only did the DM allow the Rogue to take a feat to get said familiar but having the world adapt to the players is a sign of a good DM.

Talk about boring if the DM never adjusts to your tactics! Might as well go play a hack n slash game on easy.

[JumboWheat01]

Having the whole world suddenly know that said rogue has a trained bird that exists to annoy others sounds like a DM punishing a player for his creative choices.

Let them adjust in combat, sure, but people elsewhere should have no idea that said bird helps said rogue. That's just silly.

[ChubbyRain]

Having the whole world suddenly know that said rogue has a trained bird that exists to annoy others sounds like a DM punishing a player for his creative choices.

Let them adjust in combat, sure, but people elsewhere should have no idea that said bird helps said rogue. That's just silly.

Seriously? You are going way out on a stretch. No one said people elsewhere was going to know about...

Though if you get famous enough, word spreads...

When someone says "the world reacts" they don't mean the entire world reacts at once! Lol.

Wow, talk about player privilege, having a DM react to something someone is abusing is now "DM versus Player".... I'm getting too old for this.

[Deleted]

Seriously? You are going way out on a stretch. No one said people elsewhere was going to know about...

Though if You get fampus enough, word spreads...

When someone says "the world reacts" they don't mean the entire world reacta at once! Lol.

Wow, talk about pkayer piveledge, having a DM react to something someone is abusing is now "DM versus Player".... I'm getting too old for this.

Oh, no, you misunderstand. AS SOON as a player does something, literally anything, I totally think the world should turn into Mogo and just curb stomp the players! Teach them to do anything on my watch!

Since people don't recall, the original issue was someone said it was "permanent" advantage, which means always using it, which means abusing it. You keep using the same thing over and over the world (sorry... the game... the DM... the creatures around the town...) are going to learn and use the tactic against you or keep you from using said tactic.

[Specter]

People talk about familiars as if their only use is to help in combat. P L E A S E.

It's a monstrous tactical advantage to have a creature with Perception that flies above you and keeps you updated on what's ahead, behind and to your sides. It's as good as scouting gets. You can also have them follow someone, keep an eye for a specific event and report back to you, set off dangerous traps you spot, deliver messages without having you involved... the sky's the limit.

[JumboWheat01]

Mental note: find space-faring creature to break sky limit.

Though what's the farthest distance a familiar can be from you and still contact you? I know the Warlock one has an Invocation for anywhere on the same plane as you, but I forget the standard familiar limits.

[Gignere]

Oh, no, you misunderstand. AS SOON as a player does something, literally anything, I totally think the world should turn into Mogo and just curb stomp the players! Teach them to do anything on my watch!

Since people don't recall, the original issue was someone said it was "permanent" advantage, which means always using it, which means abusing it. You keep using the same thing over and over the world (sorry... the game... the DM... the creatures around the town...) are going to learn and use the tactic against you or keep you from using said tactic.

This argument is ridiculous if a player uses a feat as written, a spell as written and following rules as written in combat they are abusing it? Should a barbarian not rage because they use it in every fight that matters? Should a Champion not crit because he is abusing it? Just because you find something bad wrong fun doesn't mean it is an abuse. Not only is help by familiar RAW it has been blessed by the game developers themselves.

[Drackolus]

100ft. Most animals have lousy perceptions (13/14), so while they can scout creatures who aren't hiding (or aren't good at it), good sneaks will easily get past the bird. That's still not useless, though. An owl in the day may seem odd, but most creatures will probably not think anything of it if they aren't magic savvy or paranoid.

[Gignere]

100ft. Most animals have lousy perceptions (13/14), so while they can scout creatures who aren't hiding (or aren't good at it), good sneaks will easily get past the bird. That's still not useless, though. An owl in the day may seem odd, but most creatures will probably not think anything of it if they aren't magic savvy or paranoid.

The Owl actually has advantage to their perception so although it might seem like it is only 13, it is really about an 18 so easily equal to the rogue with expertise in perception. To say it is lousy because it is only as good as a class with expertise I don't think is a strong argument.

[Drackolus]

This argument is ridiculous if a player uses a feat as written, a spell as written and following rules as written in combat they are abusing it? Should a barbarian not rage because they use it in every fight that matters? Should a Champion not crit because he is abusing it? Just because you find something bad wrong fun doesn't mean it is an abuse. Not only is help by familiar RAW it has been blessed by the game developers themselves.
I agree that it is not abuse, but having a weakness should mean something. If your paladin has no ranged attacks, the dm should not always place all enemies next to them. If your wizard has lousy ac, the enemies should still fling arrows at them if they're out in the open.

[Drackolus]

The Owl actually has advantage to their perception so although it might seem like it is only 13, it is really about an 18 so easily equal to the rogue with expertise in perception. To say it is lousy because it is only as good as a class with expertise I don't think is a strong argument.

I actually just missed that part. That does make it very good, especially since in the outdoors, it doesn't really need to hide.

[Alatar]

Getting both Find Familiar and BB/GFB for rogues at level 1 is broken. It is kind of like sleep at level 1 for arcane casters.

Sleep is almost useless at level 2. It does make me very happy, though, that the Magic Initiate is poo thread has a Magic Initiate is overpowered retort, which has, in turn, transmogrified the discussion into an "all owls must die" thread. Nicely done.


Permanent advantage and no he tries but permanent advantage is huge at level 1.

I've always been a bit queasy over familiars performing the Help action. Ostensibly, their threatening presence serves to distract the target, Yet familiars cannot attack. It's a fake-out that automatically succeeds, sans skill check. But the bird is not wearing a "familiar" label. But it's a tiny creature. But it says, right there in the book. I don't care. I don't like it. I don't do it.

I do send the owl familiar flying by the target's head in an attempt to draw an attack. Always. Round after round. Encounter after encounter. This trains my DM to ignore the familiar, so that, on occasion, I am at liberty use it for touch attacks with impunity. DM conditioning is an important facet of the game. A DM full of split ends is an ugly sight.


I dunno, I feel like if you're fighting a guy and there's this huge bird flapping in your face...

Tiny. Not huge. Tiny. Tiny bird.


If players are abusing the familiar in battle, it would be absolutely downright silly to not target the familiar.

I agree. It's not even an AD&D familiar, which you lost for a year. If you use your familiar to gain advantage (which is pure cheese) then expect the familiar to get ganked. It is combat, after all, and the monsters want to win.

Don't abuse your familiar in battle, kids. It'll make you RAW.

[Toadkiller]

This kind of thread makes me sad.

It's fun for some of us. Not every option needs to justify its existence to any particular person.

[Sigreid]

My 2 coppers. There's nothing wrong with the familiar help tactic. But, if a fight lasts long enough, or you have a rematch that involves some opponents who have seen you do it before, it's really not out there for one of your opponents to spend an attack to take out the bird and remove that option from you.

[Zene]

But most people who think it's "the most power cantrip" think it can be used to, like, make any illusion they want. It's actually fairly strictly limited.

Yeah, I guess you know a lot of players that don't read/understand the rules. I am not one of them. Minor Illusion is powerful because it can make virtually any sounds including an entire conversation --which alone would make it incredibly useful-- but also because it can create instant cover and places to hide, because it can block line of sight, because it can make it look like a boulder is blocking the escape route or there's a landing at the bottom of those stairs or a railing over that window or any number of other creative uses of an image of a 5' object ...and because it doesn't require concentration. It's powerful despite its limits.

[Hrugner]

Depends on the situation and what exactly that familiar is helping with.

DMs targeting a familiar is not "DM versus Player", what's next, if a DM targets a PC with an attack or heaven forbid drops that character to 0 HP, will people will cry "DM versus Player"?

My argument isn't that a DM should never target a familiar, it's that there aren't a whole lot of situations where it's a good use of their actions. Maybe a creature who knew they were going to die may kill the thing out of spite, but it isn't a tactically sound action. It's similar to sundering PC weapons in 3ed.

[djreynolds]

There is no minimum requirement stat wise for this feat, no 13 required

I know I will hear it from the forum, but PfE/G lasts 10 minutes... and it is automatic and no one is going to cast on you unless they are part of an experienced well oiled team that understands if the barbarian or fighter is taken out for 1 minute in a fight... you may lose the battle.

I just played CoS awhile back, Strahd can take out a player with his legendary charm action

BB/GFB is nice for a martial type who may lack a magic weapon, it is DM dependent, but it is a spell so it should pierce.

But lets talk about 1st level spells

Having the ability to heal, cure wounds, maybe not as good as the healer feat,

I have my own view of PfE/G, feel free to disagree but it is 10 minutes

Shield spell, its +5 versus any attack

Heroism, better versus non undead/fiends like dragons and a fighter who dumped charisma

Hex, extra damage on every attack

Longstrider is an hour, good for DMs crazy about exhaustion and dashing

Shield of faith, +2 AC for a fighter who has a very high constitution

Bless, same thing, heck it might work good on a low level fighter who has a 16 in con and proficiency in those saves

[Aaron Underhand]

There is no minimum requirement stat wise for this feat, no 13 required



But lets talk about 1st level spells



Agreed - there are always two cantrips any character would love to have be it BB/GFB or just Mage Hand and Minor Illusion, but then there is the joy of picking that once/day spell...

Goodberry - Everyone gets to bring back the primary healer for a bootstrap....

The other emergency buttons, you use once every 20 sessions... when you really need them.. great on (say) a fighter with feats to spare, or a rogue

Feather Fall
Healing Word
Faerie Fire ... or should I say 'see invisible'...

The role playing joy... for the character who just is.

Unseen servant
Speak with animals

Defenses... the unexpected

Mage armour
False Life
Fog Cloud

Comedy gold... character full

Grease

and finally 'with extreme prejudice'... saved for when someone has pissed you off...

Hex
Hunters mark

[Fishyninja]

I've heard of it as a good way for Clerics to get the Shilligah (um... whatever the right spelling is) cantrip, so that they can use Wisdom for melee attacks.

It's good to see the thread going back to MI as a feat.
As many other people have said MI is great because it allows further utility for a character and it can allow a player to allow further RP opportunities. For example a Rogue or a Bard using Minor Illusion or Presdigigigigigigtation for a distraction or performance check! There is actually another thread about this as we speak.

My two cents, referring to JeenLeen's point any character that has a high Wis Count could take Shillealegh allowing their weapon attacks to be based of Wis. So for example a Monk could pick the Druid Spell list and take Shillelagh, Produce Flame and GoodBerry giving them a magic melee weapon (until their fists take over) the abitlity to prodcue falme for light, warmth and a decent ranged attack and the ability to give some healing to themselves if they do not have the ability to do so.

TL:DR MI adds versatility.

[Specter]

In keeping up with the spirit of this thread, here are some cases where MI is blue tier (if not gold tier):

- Non-Arcane Trickster rogues. Two words: Booming Blade. For those who can disengage as a bonus action, that's the best DPR increase for a single attack. If you don't want to worry about a familiar, Fog Cloud is there for you.
- Life Clerics. Shillelagh for sweet WIS attacks and Goodberry for 40HP of healing. Monstrous.
- Tempest Clerics. Booming Blade again, look at that. With your Channel Divinity, that will put a serious dent on the enemy. 1 extra d8 of damage every six levels? Yes please.
- Paladins. A ranged option like Eldritch Blast or Fire Bolt based on CHA, so you can dump DEX and still participate in ranged combat. Put Hex in there too to bring the pain, or Expeditious Retreat to ride like the wind.
- Melee Rangers. Get a ranged option like Frostbite, and +d4 to your skills in Guidance. Or attack with WIS if you're in the mood.

[Gignere]

In keeping up with the spirit of this thread, here are some cases where MI is blue tier (if not gold tier):

- Non-Arcane Trickster rogues. Two words: Booming Blade. For those who can disengage as a bonus action, that's the best DPR increase for a single attack. If you don't want to worry about a familiar, Fog Cloud is there for you.
- Life Clerics. Shillelagh for sweet WIS attacks and Goodberry for 40HP of healing. Monstrous.
- Tempest Clerics. Booming Blade again, look at that. With your Channel Divinity, that will put a serious dent on the enemy. 1 extra d8 of damage every six levels? Yes please.
- Paladins. A ranged option like Eldritch Blast or Fire Bolt based on CHA, so you can dump DEX and still participate in ranged combat. Put Hex in there too to bring the pain, or Expeditious Retreat to ride like the wind.
- Melee Rangers. Get a ranged option like Frostbite, and +d4 to your skills in Guidance. Or attack with WIS if you're in the mood.

I would add to your list for any Dex based class mage armor would probably be blue if not gold as well. It will be their best armor until +2 magic armor drops, if it even drops.

[CaptainSarathai]

I was fortunate enough that my DM had us roll stats: 4d6, reroll 1s and 2s, then keep the highest 3. My stats are GODLY.
I nabbed 5 levels of Rogue, Arcane Trickster, and then Warlock.
I actually took MI for Warlock spells, (at 4th, before Lock) and chose Hex as my L1 spell.
Now, I can throw Hex 4 times per day, without dipping into my Warlock slots. Hex damage doesn't scale with level, just duration. This frees up slots to have a Warlock who can actually use his Pact Magic for something other than maintaining Hex for damage. I tend to use them for Armor of Agathys. TempHP+Damage and Reaction for Resistance? Ooooh yes...

[Arial Black]

and finally 'with extreme prejudice'... saved for when someone has pissed you off...

Hex
Hunters mark

Just a note: you cannot get hunter's mark through Magic Initiate.

[Zene]

Agreed - there are always two cantrips any character would love to have be it BB/GFB or just Mage Hand and Minor Illusion, but then there is the joy of picking that once/day spell...

Goodberry - Everyone gets to bring back the primary healer for a bootstrap....

The other emergency buttons, you use once every 20 sessions... when you really need them.. great on (say) a fighter with feats to spare, or a rogue

Feather Fall
Healing Word
Faerie Fire ... or should I say 'see invisible'...

The role playing joy... for the character who just is.

Unseen servant
Speak with animals

Defenses... the unexpected

Mage armour
False Life
Fog Cloud

Comedy gold... character full

Grease

and finally 'with extreme prejudice'... saved for when someone has pissed you off...

Hex
Hunters mark

Good list, other than hunter's mark as noted above by Arial. Other choices that are really good for some builds are Shield, Absorb Elements, Longstrider.

By the way, for those interested: There's already a guide that's been created on the Magic Initiate feat that's got a lot of good analysis --not just on mechanics, but also using it for flavor. The creator went through and rated all the various choices. http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?473937-Magic-Initiate-A-guide-to-an-underestimated-(and-cool)-feat

I really like his/her thoughts on how to use it for flavor/character differentiation. It's not an exhaustive guide, but a great overview and a great way to spark your own ideas on how best to use the feat.

[Sigreid]

GFB or BB on a life cleric gives them a solid at will that doesn't do radiant damage long after their single melee attack becomes a joke.

[Saggo]

GFB or BB on a life cleric gives them a solid at will that doesn't do radiant damage long after their single melee attack becomes a joke.

Any Cleric with Divine Strike can melee rather well with GFB/BB, even before including the triggered damage. Divine Strike is already equivalent to an extra attack with a d8 weapon at 14. GFB/BB just gets you there sooner and closes the DPR gap to keep melee relevant later. War and Tempest being the more obvious choices.

[Sigreid]

Any Cleric with Divine Strike can melee rather well with GFB/BB, even before including the triggered damage. Divine Strike is already equivalent to an extra attack with a d8 weapon at 14. GFB/BB just gets you there sooner and closes the DPR gap to keep melee relevant later. War and Tempest being the more obvious choices.

An extra D8 isn't the same as an extra attack for a variety of reasons. I often find that the bonus attribute damage added to an attack adds more damage than the die roll. It does help, but it's just a help. GFB at least stays competitive with your sacred flame. I'd view it as a little less of a good deal if clerics had more than just the one damage cantrip so they could shake up their damage type (without it being dependent on their domain).

[Kish]

Tomb of Battle
Where fighting goes to die.

[Dalebert]

My rolled stat half-elf lore bard got an 18, a 17, and a 16. With a maxed cha at lvl 1

If you're rolling stats and start with one maxxed, that changes the entire dynamic. It immediately frees up 2 feat slots that a point-buy character doesn't have.


This kind of thread makes me sad.

It's fun for some of us. Not every option needs to justify its existence to any particular person.

I don't get why you are sad about others asking questions or just not liking the same things you like. YOu don't have to justify it.

Honestly this thread is mostly inspired by all the suggestions I get to take this feat. It's like a hobo wanting me to give them a buck because they spit on my windshield and wiped it. It's fine once in a while but it gets annoying.

It's about the cost being so painful. I've never made a character who didn't feel like he absolutely NEEDS two feats before he can start thinking about anything else, and I hardly ever play a human variant because I also feel the other races are just so superior despite the feat. SO that means I'm lvl 12 before I can start thinking of other feats and MI has never been on my list of needed feats. If I want a familiar, I dip 1 lvl wizard. Then I'm getting something much better than MI and only delaying my next feat by 1 level instead of 4. That feels huge.

[Saggo]

An extra D8 isn't the same as an extra attack for a variety of reasons. I often find that the bonus attribute damage added to an attack adds more damage than the die roll. It does help, but it's just a help. GFB at least stays competitive with your sacred flame. I'd view it as a little less of a good deal if clerics had more than just the one damage cantrip so they could shake up their damage type (without it being dependent on their domain).

I didn't say 1d8. At level 14, Divine Strike is 2d8, if we average a bit 1d8+4.5 or equivalent to a 1d8 weapon with 18-20 in the relevant ability. So by level 14, DPR is equivalent to Extra Attack.

Depending on your criteria, that's not enough or barely competitive (most martials use other features, Rage, Smite, Hunter's Mark, additional Extra Attacks, etc) and level 14 is a long time. But as I was pointing out, Divine Strike with GFB/BB you're getting an extra 2d8 by level 8, an extra 3d8 by 11, 4d8 by 14, and 5d8 by level 14. That's roughly Attack, Extra Attack x2, and a cool 1d8, before any triggered damage.

Mage Initiate can turn any Divine Strike Cleric into a worthwhile melee build.

[Sigreid]

I didn't say 1d8. At level 14, Divine Strike is 2d8, if we average a bit 1d8+4.5 or equivalent to a 1d8 weapon with 18-20 in the relevant ability. So by level 14, DPR is equivalent to Extra Attack.

Depending on your criteria, that's not enough or barely competitive (most martials use other features, Rage, Smite, Hunter's Mark, additional Extra Attacks, etc) and level 14 is a long time. But as I was pointing out, Divine Strike with GFB/BB you're getting an extra 2d8 by level 8, an extra 3d8 by 11, 4d8 by 14, and 5d8 by level 14. That's roughly Attack, Extra Attack x2, and a cool 1d8, before any triggered damage.

Mage Initiate can turn any Divine Strike Cleric into a worthwhile melee build.

Then I misunderstood and it sounds like we more or less agree.

[Saggo]

Then I misunderstood and it sounds like we more or less agree.

Cool. It's one of my more favored builds.

[Specter]

Good list, other than hunter's mark as noted above by Arial. Other choices that are really good for some builds are Shield, Absorb Elements, Longstrider.

By the way, for those interested: There's already a guide that's been created on the Magic Initiate feat that's got a lot of good analysis --not just on mechanics, but also using it for flavor. The creator went through and rated all the various choices. http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?473937-Magic-Initiate-A-guide-to-an-underestimated-(and-cool)-feat

I really like his/her thoughts on how to use it for flavor/character differentiation. It's not an exhaustive guide, but a great overview and a great way to spark your own ideas on how best to use the feat.

Well, thank you, sir.

[Specter]

I didn't say 1d8. At level 14, Divine Strike is 2d8, if we average a bit 1d8+4.5 or equivalent to a 1d8 weapon with 18-20 in the relevant ability. So by level 14, DPR is equivalent to Extra Attack.

Depending on your criteria, that's not enough or barely competitive (most martials use other features, Rage, Smite, Hunter's Mark, additional Extra Attacks, etc) and level 14 is a long time. But as I was pointing out, Divine Strike with GFB/BB you're getting an extra 2d8 by level 8, an extra 3d8 by 11, 4d8 by 14, and 5d8 by level 14. That's roughly Attack, Extra Attack x2, and a cool 1d8, before any triggered damage.

Mage Initiate can turn any Divine Strike Cleric into a worthwhile melee build.

And if you happen to be a Tempest Cleric, those 5d8 thunder damage can be turned into 40dmg, no rolling, still adding the weapon damage and the STR. Many martial builds don't even come close.

[Dalebert]

And if you happen to be a Tempest Cleric, those 5d8 thunder damage can be turned into 40dmg, no rolling, still adding the weapon damage and the STR. Many martial builds don't even come close.

Tempest channeling gets you max damage on one roll and the 5d8 is from two separate rolls. You'd have to pick either the first 2d8 or the 3d8 later (which rarely happens frankly). My tempest cleric would never waste his channeling on a cantrip. He saves it for his Wand of Lightning Bolts.

[Saggo]

Tempest channeling gets you max damage on one roll and the 5d8 is from two separate rolls. You'd have to pick either the first 2d8 or the 3d8 later (which rarely happens frankly). My tempest cleric would never waste his channeling on a cantrip. He saves it for his Wand of Lightning Bolts.

Both abilities cause the melee attack to deal additional damage. There's no multiple rolling, it's all just extra thunder on that one attack.

[Syll]

It's about the cost being so painful. I've never made a character who didn't feel like he absolutely NEEDS two feats before he can start thinking about anything else, and I hardly ever play a human variant because I also feel the other races are just so superior despite the feat. SO that means I'm lvl 12 before I can start thinking of other feats and MI has never been on my list of needed feats

Conversely, I've never had a character take an ASI, well, ever.

From your standpoint, I can see why you'd be underwhelmed at level 12 though.

[Willie the Duck]

If you're rolling stats and start with one maxxed, that changes the entire dynamic. It immediately frees up 2 feat slots that a point-buy character doesn't have.

Yes. Yes it does. Assuming that you need a maxed main stat.



It's about the cost being so painful. I've never made a character who didn't feel like he absolutely NEEDS two feats before he can start thinking about anything else, and I hardly ever play a human variant because I also feel the other races are just so superior despite the feat. SO that means I'm lvl 12 before I can start thinking of other feats and MI has never been on my list of needed feats. If I want a familiar, I dip 1 lvl wizard. Then I'm getting something much better than MI and only delaying my next feat by 1 level instead of 4. That feels huge.

So, each build you can think of that you would want to play has their first two ASIs spoken for? I think it is a safe bet just to say that you and others have different expectations about the game. If their advice to you seems off, I would attribute it to that.



Tempest channeling gets you max damage on one roll and the 5d8 is from two separate rolls. You'd have to pick either the first 2d8 or the 3d8 later (which rarely happens frankly). My tempest cleric would never waste his channeling on a cantrip. He saves it for his Wand of Lightning Bolts.

I've argued back and forth on whether to save one's abilities for the opportunity to use them most efficiently or to use them often, to ensure that they aren't wasted. With Short Rest recharge abilities, I think the internal consensus I've reached is that it's better to use them in a possibly weak way than to get to the next short rest and realize that you never used it at all. Either way, this again sounds like we play with different expectations. I would never end up with a wand of lightning bolts in the first place.

[Specter]

Both abilities cause the melee attack to deal additional damage. There's no multiple rolling, it's all just extra thunder on that one attack.

Yes to this.

[Dalebert]

Both abilities cause the melee attack to deal additional damage. There's no multiple rolling, it's all just extra thunder on that one attack.

I jumped to conclusions and thought you were talking about just the thunder dmg from Booming Blade at tier 3. My bad. I see what you were referring to now.

[Saggo]

I jumped to conclusions and thought you were talking about just the thunder dmg from Booming Blade at tier 3. My bad. I see what you were referring to now.

Gotcha. Yeah, you'd need two Channel Divinities to max the attack and the triggered damage from BB.

[MrStabby]

There are a load of useful spells this can get you. Light is sometimes awesome, Sacred flame is low damage but can be useful vs very high AC targets or if you want something to avoid sunlight sensitivity. Resistance is awesome if you don't have any use for your concentration - it has a not insignificant chance of saving your life and a good chance of saving healing resources. Mold earth is a bit DM dependant but a permissive one may let you pull all kind of cheese.

Some martial classes may also have difficulty closing with enemies - if you have a 25ft move and regularly find you need the dash action to get within attacking range you may prefer to take a cantrip like lightning lure or thorn whip over attacks with javelins (stat dependant).

The thing about magic initiate is that it isn't about whether a cantrip is good or a first level spell is worth the feat. It is about whether the combination of all of the above are worth it. Feather Fall may seem a bit too niche, as might light and resistance. For each of them you might not have many challenges where they are useful but for the set of all three of them you may find that you get to do awesome things on most days.

[stollfy]

My favorite use of it so far has been with my vuman rogue mastermind. The find familiar owl is great especially once I can also use the help action at 30 ft. It really buffed the main melee party members. Minor illusion and message helped as well with scouting.

[LordFluffy]

I'm running a Warlock whose background was that he started off as a bard. It allowed me to justify that as well as take Viscous Mockery, so he could avoid being hit/insult people to death.

I'd like to run a character who enjoys being self sufficient. Take Goodberry for food and drink, Produce flame to light fires.

I also am not really fond of multi-classing.

[Zene]

Well, thank you, sir.

Heh I just noticed it's linked in your sig. You're the author I take it? Thanks for putting it together! Also love the EK guide and especially the Social God guide.

[SaintRidley]

- Life Clerics. Shillelagh for sweet WIS attacks and Goodberry for 40HP of healing. Monstrous.

Up to 10 berries, 1 hp each. Where's the 40 hp come from? Life Cleric boosts your spells that heal. Goodberry conjures berries. It does not heal directly.

[Ruslan]

If I want a familiar, I dip 1 lvl wizard. Then I'm getting something much better than MI and only delaying my next feat by 1 level instead of 4.
That may be your personal preference, but I don't believe you are looking at the full picture. "If I dip, I'm only delaying my next feat by 1 level", is only part of the picture.
The other part it, you are delaying every single class feature you will ever receive by one level. Sneak attack progression? Forever one level delayed. Uncanny Dodge? One level delayed. Expertise? Evasion? Reliable Talent? Archetype power? All one level delayed. Oh, and 20th level capstone? Never.

In general, looking at the full picture, I believe a feat represents a significantly smaller investment than dipping a level of a class that has no synergy with your main class. Of course, if the classes do have synergy, that's another matter. But, if all you want/need is a familiar, and otherwise a level of Wizard has no or little synergy with your main class progression, Magic Initiate is an infinitely better way to achieve it than a Wizard level.

[Rysto]

Up to 10 berries, 1 hp each. Where's the 40 hp come from? Life Cleric boosts your spells that heal. Goodberry conjures berries. It does not heal directly.

There's a Sage Advice ruling to the contrary (although I'm not a huge fan of it)

[Specter]

That may be your personal preference, but I don't believe you are looking at the full picture. "If I dip, I'm only delaying my next feat by 1 level", is only part of the picture.
The other part it, you are delaying every single class feature you will ever receive by one level. Sneak attack progression? Forever one level delayed. Uncanny Dodge? One level delayed. Expertise? Evasion? Reliable Talent? Archetype power? All one level delayed. Oh, and 20th level capstone? Never.

In general, looking at the full picture, I believe a feat represents a significantly smaller investment than dipping a level of a class that has no synergy with your main class. Of course, if the classes do have synergy, that's another matter. But, if all you want/need is a familiar, and otherwise a level of Wizard has no or little synergy with your main class progression, Magic Initiate is an infinitely better way to achieve it than a Wizard level.

And you also don't need to worry about having a 13 in INT from the start.

[Zene]

"If I dip, I'm only delaying my next feat by 1 level", is only part of the picture.
The other part it, you are delaying every single class feature you will ever receive by one level. Sneak attack progression? Forever one level delayed. Uncanny Dodge? One level delayed. Expertise? Evasion? Reliable Talent? Archetype power? All one level delayed.


^This. It's so easy to downplay the impact of continually being one level behind in getting your core class features. But when you're fighting extraplanar beings at L7, you really miss that Banishment. Or Greater Invisibility, or Extra Attack, etc.

Additionally, one thing people seem to forget, is each level (typically) takes longer than the last to get through. You spend more time at CL6 than you do at CL5. So, for example, a Cleric 1 / Wizard X spends a lot more time at Wizard 6 than a non-dipped Wizard would. In other words, you're not just "1 level" behind, you're really 1 level + a continually increasing margin of time behind, as you progress.

I'm a huge fan of multiclassing, my main three characters are MC'd and I love them. But the costs are greater than they appear on paper. And lots of MC builds proposed in posts/guides focus on how it will play at a certain level, ignoring the pain of what it will take to get to that level.

[Golbez57]

Find Familiar.

Minor Illusion.

Pick another fun Wizard cantrip.

They were nice complements to the abilities and forest tricksterling theme of the Firbolg Druid I recently created.

[BillyBobShorton]

Long thread full of solid cases for both sides. I'll offer this brief, but hopefully useful notion:

Many skills/feats can be fantastic or complete garbage, depending on how the player incorprates them into his build mechanics.

MI can greatly alter/improve certain class features, like a rogue with a familiar for advantage/SA, or a Life Cleric with Goodberries (40 free hp pills), or a fighter/grappler with HEX on str, as well as constant+d6 dmg for an hour in a dungeon crawl. A lvl 4 vuman lucky feat bard with cleric MI using Light & Guidance Cantrip,s (light to quell his lack of darkvision), and a Bless spell 1w/day along with his inspiration dice is a MONSTROUS utility and combat buffer! A CL M.I. Illusionist snagging sacred flame to use on resistance/covered monsters, as well as Thaumaturgy to combo with Prestidigitation/minor Illusion/Silent Image/etc, and a Shield of Faith spell can be effective and perhaps save himself/others at times.

A Druid just grabbing Eldritch Blast and Hellish Rebuke.. or a Barb taking Mold Earth... not so helpful. It's applying foresight and effective Build Syrategy that make MI highly loved. not just to have 3 low level spells, IMO

[Fishyninja]

Long thread full of solid cases for both sides. I'll offer this brief, but hopefully useful notion:

Many skills/feats can be fantastic or complete garbage, depending on how the player incorprates them into his build mechanics.

MI can greatly alter/improve certain class features, like a rogue with a familiar for advantage/SA, or a Life Cleric with Goodberries (40 free hp pills), or a fighter/grappler with HEX on str, as well as constant+d6 dmg for an hour in a dungeon crawl. A lvl 4 vuman lucky feat bard with cleric MI using Light & Guidance Cantrip,s (light to quell his lack of darkvision), and a Bless spell 1w/day along with his inspiration dice is a MONSTROUS utility and combat buffer! A CL M.I. Illusionist snagging sacred flame to use on resistance/covered monsters, as well as Thaumaturgy to combo with Prestidigitation/minor Illusion/Silent Image/etc, and a Shield of Faith spell can be effective and perhaps save himself/others at times.

A Druid just grabbing Eldritch Blast and Hellish Rebuke.. or a Barb taking Mold Earth... not so helpful. It's applying foresight and effective Build Syrategy that make MI highly loved. not just to have 3 low level spells, IMO

I'd second this entirely. The strength of MI is to add utility to your class the two examples I always use is BB for Rogues, though using find familiar is also a good one.

The mention of good berry piqued my interest I mentioend it earlier, getting a Monk to take Shillaliegh, Goodberry and Produce flame. You know have a nearly self suffcient character.

[BillyBobShorton]

I'd second this entirely. The strength of MI is to add utility to your class the two examples I always use is BB for Rogues, though using find familiar is also a good one.

The mention of good berry piqued my interest I mentioend it earlier, getting a Monk to take Shillaliegh, Goodberry and Produce flame. You know have a nearly self suffcient character.
Hell yeah! Take a dip in life cleric and they become 4hp berries, guidance for ability checks, message for discreet whisper texts or resistabce for
...reaistance, cure wounds for something like an avg total of 60-70ish hp a day w/ the berries, shield of faith for more unarmored armor (I think that works together?) bless for saves and attack rolls. Wis 16 also puts your unarmored D Wayyy up there.

The whole Mage Initiate thing works better in the context of ingredients to a delicious meal rather than just getting a hamburger, fries, and coke you didn't need. Like a Champion just wanting firebolt, ray of frost, and Chromatic Orb "because, damage" is the kind of application that makes MI seem wasteful.

[Fishyninja]

Hell yeah! Take a dip in life cleric and they become 4hp berries, guidance for ability checks, message for discreet whisper texts or resistabce for
...reaistance, cure wounds for something like an avg total of 60-70ish hp a day w/ the berries, shield of faith for more unarmored armor (I think that works together?) bless for saves and attack rolls. Wis 16 also puts your unarmored D Wayyy up there.

The whole Mage Initiate thing works better in the context of ingredients to a delicious meal rather than just getting a hamburger, fries, and coke you didn't need. Like a Champion just wanting firebolt, ray of frost, and Chromatic Orb "because, damage" is the kind of application that makes MI seem wasteful.

What would your thoughts be on a WOTLD Monk (who hates undead) taking MI and then choosing Cleric to get access to cantrips and spells such as Spare the Dying, (Kelemvor has a schedule to keep and my party are not due yet), Guidance (Because we all need help from powers above) and Protection from Evil and Good (Let Kelemvor shield you from these heathens and monsters).

[Specter]

What would your thoughts be on a WOTLD Monk (who hates undead) taking MI and then choosing Cleric to get access to cantrips and spells such as Spare the Dying, (Kelemvor has a schedule to keep and my party are not due yet), Guidance (Because we all need help from powers above) and Protection from Evil and Good (Let Kelemvor shield you from these heathens and monsters).

Shield of Faith would be more useful, I believe. That way you can make a true tank, focusing on that spell and using Patient Defense. Having 18-22AC and giving disadvantage on attacks would make you very tough.

[Fishyninja]

Good point, completely forgot about that one, still not full au fait with all the casters etc.

[Deleted]

Good point, completely forgot about that one, still not full au fait with all the casters etc.

Sanctuary is also a really fun choice.

Plop it on yourself while running around and using non-attack actions (Help isn't attacking :p)

Or put it on an ally and run around beating things in the face.

No concentration!

[Fishyninja]

Sanctuary is also a really fun choice.

Plop it on yourself while running around and using non-attack actions (Help isn't attacking :p)

Or put it on an ally and run around beating things in the face.

No concentration!

Huzzah for beating things in the face!

[BillyBobShorton]

Fishyninja
I think the death monk is cool from a role-playingt/color standpoint, but as I mentioned before, the dip in life cleric and ranger MI would be more mechanically sound and offer more spells/optionsn including.much of what you want to do.

[Zene]

Fishyninja
I think the death monk is cool from a role-playingt/color standpoint, but as I mentioned before, the dip in life cleric and ranger MI would be more mechanically sound and offer more spells/optionsn including.much of what you want to do.

Ranger is not a valid MI class.

Edit: Just realized you probably meant Druid for Shillelagh and Goodberry.

[Fishyninja]

Fishyninja
I think the death monk is cool from a role-playingt/color standpoint, but as I mentioned before, the dip in life cleric and ranger MI would be more mechanically sound and offer more spells/optionsn including.much of what you want to do.

I was tempted to MC with a Ranger, or a Fighter/Battlemaster but that is for a different thread.
Oh and you are right it so much fun to RP I get to quote these fire and brimstone verses it is great!

[BillyBobShorton]

I was tempted to MC with a Ranger, or a Fighter/Battlemaster but that is for a different thread.
Oh and you are right it so much fun to RP I get to quote these fire and brimstone verses it is great!
All good.. just know."MI ranger" meant mage initiate for goldberries combo'd with lofe cleric boost, not "MC" as in multiclass with ranger,.not that it couldn't also be effective

[Fishyninja]

All good.. just know."MI ranger" meant mage initiate for goldberries combo'd with lofe cleric boost, not "MC" as in multiclass with ranger,.not that it couldn't also be effective

Oh I got that, earlier when I was referring to Goodberry I was thinking from the Druid list, but I get that those ones only heal 1HP each so 10hp still not bad to have though.

[BillyBobShorton]

Oh I got that, earlier when I was referring to Goodberry I was thinking from the Druid list, but I get that those ones only heal 1HP each so 10hp still not bad to have though.

I see what you're getting at. Ranger also has goldberry, though. The berries are 1hp each, but with just 1 dip in life cleric then, they become 4 hp each (40hp in your pocket), and last 24 hours, so cast before a long rest for the next day and regain the spell slot. If you need. But yeah, with Druid you'd get that plus access to Shillaliegh and 1 more canty.

PHB Life Domain
Disciple of Life
Also starting at 1st level, your healing spells are more effective. Whenever you use a spell of 1st level or higher to restore hit points to a creature, the creature regains additional hit points equal to 2 + the spell’s level.

WoTc Answers:
If I’m a cleric/druid with the Disciple of Life feature, does the goodberry spell benefit from the feature? Yes. The Disciple of Life feature would make each berry restore 4 hit points, instead of 1, assuming you cast goodberry with a 1st-level spell slot.

[Dalebert]

The way I adjudicate Goodberries with a Life cleric is the cleric has to administer the berry himself for it to heal 4 hp. The wording is "when you use a spell to heal"; not when you cast a heal spell. In fact, he doesn't have to cast Goodberry. He can administer a goodberry summoned by someone else and that goodberry will heal 4 hp. If he feeds someone a Goodberry, that's the point when he is using a spell to heal someone. If he summons Goodberries and hands them out, and people feed themselves, they just heal 1 hp each.

[BillyBobShorton]

That may be your personal preference, but I don't believe you are looking at the full picture. "If I dip, I'm only delaying my next feat by 1 level", is only part of the picture.
The other part it, you are delaying every single class feature you will ever receive by one level. Sneak attack progression? Forever one level delayed. Uncanny Dodge? One level delayed. Expertise? Evasion? Reliable Talent? Archetype power? All one level delayed. Oh, and 20th level capstone? Never.

In general, looking at the full picture, I believe a feat represents a significantly smaller investment than dipping a level of a class that has no synergy with your main class. Of course, if the classes do have synergy, that's another matter. But, if all you want/need is a familiar, and otherwise a level of Wizard has no or little synergy with your main class progression, Magic Initiate is an infinitely better way to achieve it than a Wizard level.
I see the point, but the dip is another level of OTHER class features. Sure, the long haul wait sucks, but in the mean time, if you've spent the dip wisely, you'll reap pther benefits.

I think the deeper issue is cake and eating it too, or eating it LATER. You want faster core acceleration, then go straight class and try to forget about extra stuff other classes offer-eye on the prize. If you're willing to wait in exchange for something that can pitentially add a lot NOW to ease the extra wait, bite the bullet and dip/MC.

[BillyBobShorton]

The way I adjudicate Goodberries with a Life cleric is the cleric has to administer the berry himself for it to heal 4 hp. The wording is "when you use a spell to heal"; not when you cast a heal spell. In fact, he doesn't have to cast Goodberry. He can administer a goodberry summoned by someone else and that goodberry will heal 4 hp. If he feeds someone a Goodberry, that's the point when he is using a spell to heal someone. If he summons Goodberries and hands them out, and people feed themselves, they just heal 1 hp each.
I totally agree that the PHB wording is more on the RAW (directly adminstered)side of the fence than it is sitting in the RAI (attach to any healy type spell) neighbor's grass, but if the company who wrote the book gives the thumbs up for an online advisor to clarify the ruling to allow Goodberries to work, I certainly wouldn't disallow it. The player is expending an ASI/Feat and a core class level for the dip to get it. Seems a fair enough trade, but your ruling is not unfair, either.

[Sigreid]

The way I adjudicate Goodberries with a Life cleric is the cleric has to administer the berry himself for it to heal 4 hp. The wording is "when you use a spell to heal"; not when you cast a heal spell. In fact, he doesn't have to cast Goodberry. He can administer a goodberry summoned by someone else and that goodberry will heal 4 hp. If he feeds someone a Goodberry, that's the point when he is using a spell to heal someone. If he summons Goodberries and hands them out, and people feed themselves, they just heal 1 hp each.

Eh, if you can afford to do some CHA, which I think a cleric should anyway, you actually can get much more mileage out of Inspiring Leader than Goodberry.

[danpit2991]

i personally love magic initiate it gives just the right amount of customization that can make a character unique weather flavor, utility or a power bump it all depends on what you want

[Dalebert]

I totally agree that the PHB wording is more on the RAW (directly adminstered)side of the fence than it is sitting in the RAI (attach to any healy type spell) neighbor's grass, but if the company who wrote the book gives the thumbs up for an online advisor to clarify the ruling to allow Goodberries to work, I certainly wouldn't disallow it. The player is expending an ASI/Feat and a core class level for the dip to get it. Seems a fair enough trade, but your ruling is not unfair, either.

I explained this to a life cleric in my game, that this is how I run it and he was fine with it and immediately dipped a level of druid.

[Specter]

Eh, if you can afford to do some CHA, which I think a cleric should anyway, you actually can get much more mileage out of Inspiring Leader than Goodberry.

CHA is a quaternary stat for clerics (WIS>CON=physical stat), and that's assuming you dump either STR or DEX. It should be almost impossible for your Cleric to have at least 13CHA and spare room for a feat.

Yet another case where Magic Initiate supersedes the need for otherwise bad stats.

[Sigreid]

CHA is a quaternary stat for clerics (WIS>CON=physical stat), and that's assuming you dump either STR or DEX. It should be almost impossible for your Cleric to have at least 13CHA and spare room for a feat.

Yet another case where Magic Initiate supersedes the need for otherwise bad stats.

No arguement here, but if you have the option, Inspiring Leader is actually a pretty powerful feat (and I think largely overlooked).

[Ruslan]

No arguement here, but if you have the option, Inspiring Leader is actually a pretty powerful feat (and I think largely overlooked).
Yes, but it's not the cleric who should take it. Plenty of Cha-based classes will get more mileage out of it.

[Davemeddlehed]

All good.. just know."MI ranger" meant mage initiate for goldberries combo'd with lofe cleric boost, not "MC" as in multiclass with ranger,.not that it couldn't also be effective

Ranger isn't available through Magic Initiate, just like Paladin. Probably because neither class gets cantrips.

[Deleted]

On the cleric inspirational leader stuff...


Really the feat a Cleric should take, if they are going that route, is the Healer feat.

With a Healer's Kit...
+ Stabilize the dying and they gain 1 HP.
+ Action: 1 Use = heal a target 1d6 + 4 + Target's Maxmimum number of HD/short rest.

That ain't bad... It is actually better than second wind. Second wind only accounts for fighter levels and this accounts for any HD. With 1d6 + 4 > 1d10...

Basically for a feat, you get a better version of second wind that you have to fuel with money. At 5 GP a pop, this little bastard is nothing, I mean it isn't like you are spending your money on anything else. This is before three levels of rogue makes this a bonus action!

Use this before and after a short rest for maximum effect. That is (2d6 + 8 + Target's Number of HD)

They are three lbs... So maybe you can't carry that many? You have team mates and carrying capacity is awesomely high.

Healer > Inspiring Leader for Clerics. Just be glad this isn't casting a spell or Life Clerics would be going siiiiick.

DON"T get me wrong, I love the Inspirational Leader whatever feat, but for Clerics Healer is the way to go.

[Willie the Duck]

It's really great for any character looking to be a healer (assuming giving avg. 7.5+lvl hp to each character who might need it per SR is effective for your group. In other groups, being able to give 50 hp to the one guy who needs it is more important, but the only solution to that is spell slots), cleric or otherwise.

The healer's kit expenditure probably isn't a big deal either by gp cost or by weight, but it is a confiscate-able component that can't be replaced by spell foci, so for certain campaigns (Out of the Abyss, lost on desert island, etc.), it is going to be a limitation.

[Dalebert]

Clerics have built-in healing powers. The healer's feat is great for anyone but I don't think a cleric is necessarily the ideal candidate when they have Healing Word as a bonus action. Of course having anyone at all with it makes for really cheap out-of-combat healing, even if it's just to supplement a short rest since it recharges and save some hit dice.

The ideal candidates IMO are thieves with fast hands or arcane casters with twinned Haste. Haste a hard-hitter in your party and Haste yourself too. Now your AC and mobility go up making it easier to avoid attacks and maintain concentration and you have an extra action by which to heal people (since you can't cast spells with it anyway). Or basically anyone with actions which might otherwise be wasted.

[JumboWheat01]

The ideal candidates IMO are thieves with fast hands or arcane casters with twinned Haste.

Thieves with the healer's feat is indeed a good combo, and a fun and interesting way to use the character. I remember someone else on this forum making a "doctor rogue" who went around with the feat, wish I could remember the name of the thread, it's quite old.

Never thought of using it when hasted, however. That's an interesting idea...

[Citan]

Hi!

Apologies if some/all of what I say will have been said already.

Advantages of Magic Initiate:
- For casters taking same class, it's one more spell known and two more cantrips: Wizard can expand its utility cantrips or rider attacks for example.
- For anyone wanting some magic but doesn't have mental stat for it, it's the only way to get it.

You seem as a Fighter you don't need any offensive cantrips? Well, true enough, you probably trumps everything with Sharpshooter or GWM. But why not be also creative with Minor Illusion, Mold Earth, Shape Water?

Booming Blade, Shocking Grasp, Green Flame Blade, Thorns Whip, Shillelagh, Ray of Frost, Eldricht Blast can all be useful offenses for many characters.

Shape Water, Message, Minor Illusions, Mage Hand, Mold Earth, Create Bonfire, Control Flames, Produce Flame, Prestidigitation are all fun ones and may be also very useful on occasions, especially with a creative mind.

As for 1st level spells: Bless, Shield of Faith, Hex, Longstrider all give a significant boost for the biggest fight of the day. Feather Fall, Healing Word, Command, Sanctuary, Thunderwave, Magic Missile, Shield can be used as panic buttons.

Animal Frienship, Charm Person, Create or Destroy Water, Detect x, Fog Cloud, Identify, Comprehend Languages are good examples of spells which will have a chance to shine at least once in a day, on regular occasions (social encounters, stealth, adventuring).

Mage Armor and Find Familiar are the best bang for your bucks considering what they give and their duration.

Of course, Magic Initiate is not always the best feat for your goal.
If you wanted it mainly to get a ranged offensive cantrip, Spell Sniper is much better.
If you wanted it mainly to get one spell that happens to be a ritual, Ritual Caster (provided you meet the prerequisites) is obviously the best choice.
For most other situations though, Magic Initiate is the one feat that is beneficial to any and every character, because of the sheer choice of spells and cantrips.


Monk: grab Shillelagh for being more SAD, Thorn Whips for some control fun, and...
- Thunderwave for the case where you failed enough to get surrounded,
- Fog Cloud or Grease for a bit of control fun,
- Longstrider for slightly better movement during the big fight,
- Expeditious Retreat for much better movement during the big fight (sure, you can do it already as a Monk, but it would cost ki).

Or dip Cleric to get better to-hit and saves (Bless) along with Guidance and Sacred Flame.

Be a Fighter that come down a long tradition of arcanic blacksmiths, that is as such able to control flames and metal to an extent: dip Wizard for Burning Hands, Mending and either Green Flame Blade or Control Flames.

Be a "whisperer" Assassin Rogue that is renowned for succeeding any spy/murder mission, dipping Wizard for Comprehend Languages, Minor Illusion and Prestidigitation.

Be the great scout of your party, the Rogue/Ranger/whatever that gives prime information on the enemy, but using Minor Illusion and either Message (you enter the hideout then send info to your friends who you know is just outside behind the wall) or Mage Hand (use the hand near a window or entrance to form code signs which can be seen by your friends).

Or be the adventuring tactician, creating opportunities or negating tactical flaws by erecting crude protections (Mold Earth) or creating platforms to cross a small water flow (Shape Water).

Or be the great Fighter chief that is so wise and charismatic that he knows how to push his troops to do beyond their best (Guidance) or stay impervious to the worst assaults (Resistance), as well as stop the big evil leader right it its tracks (Command) (or, so convincing that he can give a new strength to even fallen soldiers -Healing Word-).


EDIT: Contrarily to what others have said, I don't think Goodberry is actually a good candidate for Magic Initiate, even with a Life Cleric. Because past the very few first levels it won't matter much since it's only once/day compared to a few more potions. I'd rather pick up a non-concentration buff such as Longstrider or panic button such as Thunderwave. IMO, Goodberry shines only when you can spam it. ;)

Sanctuary is also a really fun choice.

Plop it on yourself while running around and using non-attack actions (Help isn't attacking :p)

Or put it on an ally and run around beating things in the face.

No concentration!
AFB but I remember a new UA Barbarian which provides retaliation damage to anyone coming close. Could be a fun combo with Sanctuary cast just before raging. :p



In keeping up with the spirit of this thread, here are some cases where MI is blue tier (if not gold tier):

- Non-Arcane Trickster rogues. Two words: Booming Blade. For those who can disengage as a bonus action, that's the best DPR increase for a single attack. If you don't want to worry about a familiar, Fog Cloud is there for you.
- Life Clerics. Shillelagh for sweet WIS attacks and Goodberry for 40HP of healing. Monstrous.
- Tempest Clerics. Booming Blade again, look at that. With your Channel Divinity, that will put a serious dent on the enemy. 1 extra d8 of damage every six levels? Yes please.
- Paladins. A ranged option like Eldritch Blast or Fire Bolt based on CHA, so you can dump DEX and still participate in ranged combat. Put Hex in there too to bring the pain, or Expeditious Retreat to ride like the wind.
- Melee Rangers. Get a ranged option like Frostbite, and +d4 to your skills in Guidance. Or attack with WIS if you're in the mood.
Life Cleric: confer what I said above.
Tempest Cleric: good catch (although Thunderbolt Strike is not compatible with Booming Blade. It would be compatible with Lightning Lure though, which would make a fun combo of "creature come and go" provided you have high enough INT or CHA).
Paladin: they have many spells to use their concentration on already, not even accounting for Oath spells (Bless, Hunter's Mark, Haste, smiting spells). And for the sake of having a good ranged attack, taking Spell Sniper with Eldricht Blast is by far better.
Melee Ranger: Druid would provide WIS mod for melee (Shillelagh) and ranged (Magic Stone) alike. Since a melee ranger would probably not take Crossbow Expert or Swift Quiver, Magic Stone actually is a pretty decent choice for the occasional ranged attack (not much competition for bonus action, and non-concentration).