Next Unearthed Arcana: February 6th

[jaappleton]

No reason given for the delay.

I know Crawford's been a bit ill, and now with PAX South, I imagine scheduling just didn't allow people to work on things, I guess.

[DracoKnight]

No reason given for the delay.

I know Crawford's been a bit ill, and now with PAX South, I imagine scheduling just didn't allow people to work on things, I guess.

Entirely reasonable. And it's only 1 more week.

[JumboWheat01]

Maybe they're building up an epic surprise for all of us, and just want to make sure it's ready.

Though if there are delays, there are delays. Free content's free, so I'm happy no matter when it arrives.

[Potato_Priest]

Maybe they're building up an epic surprise for all of us, and just want to make sure it's ready.

Though if there are delays, there are delays. Free content's free, so I'm happy no matter when it arrives.

Aye.

I hope they have taken the advice that I wrote on the final page of a more recent UA: Take the time to put out good stuff, rather than pumping out and poorly thought out stuff that people won't use.

[JakOfAllTirades]

I'm guessing the Mystic is next. Archetypes for existing classes wouldn't take so long to finish.

[Typhon]

It would be nice if they were closer to working psionics for 5e. However, it could also be an outlay of a new setting to either make use of current systems or a package setting to make psionics useful directly as well. DarkSun was always very interesting.

[ChubbyRain]

No reason given for the delay.

I know Crawford's been a bit ill, and now with PAX South, I imagine scheduling just didn't allow people to work on things, I guess.

A majority of UA atuff has been disappointing so and extra week to wait for it is fine for me.

[Mikey P]

A majority of UA atuff has been disappointing so and extra week to wait for it is fine for me.

It has seemed a bit flimsy and rushed since they tried making it weekly, and then they couldn't keep the schedule anyway. Better they take their time and get it right.

[jaappleton]

It has seemed a bit flimsy and rushed since they tried making it weekly, and then they couldn't keep the schedule anyway. Better they take their time and get it right.

The only one I thought was outright bad was the Fighter article. Kensei Monks were a mess but I know why after seeing Mearls and Crawford explain their thoughts (It'll be better when it gets a second pass, and it is getting a second pass).

Oh, Ranger was bad, too. The archetypes there were just... not exciting at all.

[ChubbyRain]

It has seemed a bit flimsy and rushed since they tried making it weekly, and then they couldn't keep the schedule anyway. Better they take their time and get it right.

Even when they weren't out so much, they weren't really all that much better.

I'm almost glad they dont put out official work like a PHB 2 or whatever... With what they have officially put out and what we see from UA...

I don't think they have the quality devs to do it.

[MrStabby]

Even when they weren't out so much, they weren't really all that much better.

I'm almost glad they dont put out official work like a PHB 2 or whatever... With what they have officially put out and what we see from UA...

I don't think they have the quality devs to do it.

When they take the time and incorporate feedback they get a really solid output. For example, their mode recent revision of the base ranger.

Some of the other stuff feels a little ill-thought-through though.

[Sception]

A big part of the problem is they just don't have enough staff - not enough devs, not enough in house testers. It's been that way since day one of this edition. After 4e's performance, they just didn't want to invest in it.

Shame, really. 5e's got great core, but it's a bit sterile. For an edition that was supposedly all about modularity, there's hardly any real options, and while I appreciate the overall cleanliness of the class design, it also leaves new characters feeling a bit stale without a steady supply of quality supplemental content, and the supplemental crunch for this game has been neither steady in its release rate nor of particularly consistent quality.

[jaappleton]

A big part of the problem is they just don't have enough staff - not enough devs, not enough in house testers. It's been that way since day one of this edition. After 4e's performance, they just didn't want to invest in it.

Shame, really. 5e's got great core, but it's a bit sterile. For an edition that was supposedly all about modularity, there's hardly any real options, and while I appreciate the overall cleanliness of the class design, it also leaves new characters feeling a bit stale without a steady supply of quality supplemental content, and the supplemental crunch for this game has been neither steady in its release rate nor of particularly consistent quality.

There's help coming. There's a Divine oriented book coming. Complete Divine? It was Kickstarted, and by all accounts it's looking good.

Matt Mercer of Critical Role partnered with Green Ronin to release a campaign guide that'll have a few class archetypes as well. At least one Sorcerer type has been confirmed, the Runechild.

There's also the Homebrew community. Sterling Vermin's stuff is pretty good, I know that. I know some members of the forum here are part of The Middle Finger of Vecna. And Reddit/UnearthedArcana is good as well.

[Sception]

3rd party content is great and all, but it's not a substitute for 1st party support. Quality is even more unreliable, and ime most DMs are unlikely to have any interest in trying it out. I mean, I allow 3rd party content in games I run, subject to review, but I can't play in games I run.

In games other people run, it's usually enough of an up hill climb just trying to ok UA material. Heck, I've struggled through multiple games where no 'optional material' was allowed, and since the devs decided to lable feats, multiclassing, and half the races as 'optional material', that really takes all of 'building' out of character building.

[ChubbyRain]

When they take the time and incorporate feedback they get a really solid output. For example, their mode recent revision of the base ranger.

Some of the other stuff feels a little ill-thought-through though.

Maybe I'm thinking of the wrong one, but the last Ranger revision I saw had a few of the same problems as the base ranger.

Primarily that at level 1, you have nothing. Favored Enemy is still a joke and Natural Explorer is more likely to be forgotten.

Beat Conclave, as I recall, looked better but the entire thing was meh worthy.

I still think Ranger should be a subclass for others.

I just don't think they have the talent anymore. After firing all the people they did have, they just the devs are left with MM and "just some guys".

I've seen better first draft homebrew from people who don't do it for a living.

[Sception]

The purge after the release of 5e was a blow they still haven't recovered from, yeah.

[ChubbyRain]

The purge after the release of 5e was a blow they still haven't recovered from, yeah.

They got rid of everyone and kept Mike M? Like... The entire reason 4e got turned into something weird? Like, I love 4e, but even I could have told you making D&D look drastically different was a bad idea.

Plus keeping Jeremy "4e Essentials" Crawford... Yeah... Good idea there.

Sadly 5e is more 4e Essentials than most other things, it's why the fighter went back to its preambulatory stage.

They must have been the cheapest of the devs.

5e has a lot of wasted potential, sadly.

[Skeller]

it's why the fighter went back to its preambulatory stage.

I am just curious about this. Could you please elaborate for someone who did not follow 5e until well after release please?

[jaappleton]

They got rid of everyone and kept Mike M? Like... The entire reason 4e got turned into something weird? Like, I love 4e, but even I could have told you making D&D look drastically different was a bad idea.

Plus keeping Jeremy "4e Essentials" Crawford... Yeah... Good idea there.

Sadly 5e is more 4e Essentials than most other things, it's why the fighter went back to its preambulatory stage.

They must have been the cheapest of the devs.

5e has a lot of wasted potential, sadly.

Hold your horses, there.

Essentials was a desperate attempt by WOTC to make 4E into the style of older edition. I think it was also an attempt to simply have classes out of the box, ready to go, without the need to go through a dozen books to find everything you needed. And 4E just... Love it or hate it, that's like putting a square peg into a round hole.

So Mearls (He did Essentials, I believe) was tasked with a damn tall order. An order that... I don't think could've really succeeded under any circumstance, really.

Rodney Thompson left to join Bungie after 5E's release, and Greg Bilsand left to do... something. James Wyatt was moved to Magic: The Gathering, and Chris Sims was unfortunately let go. (I know there were many more designers but those are the only ones I know what happened to).

It's not like Mearls and Crawford got rid of people, or anything. That was mandated by higher ups. And you raise a legitimate issue; Did they not do enough to keep their designers / Did they let go of too many talented people? And I don't know the answer.

I do think this recent rush of UA over the last two or three months has been... Mixed. When they want to really make something, I think they get the majority of it right (Though it needs community feedback). When it's "One a week, let's go!" -whip crack-, I think it's tougher to churn content out without it feeling uninspired. And a lot of this stuff has been uninspired (Samurai, Knight for Fighter especially).

One thing they've should've done prior to this was run a poll, and talk to the community. "Hey, what do you want for these classes? List some archetypes you want, or pick from this list". They did that after 5Es initial release, but it's been quite awhile since then, and I'm not certain they have what the community wants to see in mind right now. Which is a shame, really.

[ChubbyRain]

I am just curious about this. Could you please elaborate for someone who did not follow 5e until well after release please?

The Fighter in 2e and 3e were pretty much the same person (I didn't play before 2e but I doubt it's different) where they are insanely linear and don't really learn to do anything that a commoner couldn't replicate in some way. Commoners can never cast spells but a commoner can swing a weapon, attempt to trip someone, and use magic items... Hell, a commoner with magic items to boost their stats and stuff look very simular to a fighter.

Then came 3.5's Tome of Battle, one of the greatest thing to happen to Martials (coughFightercough). This gave options to the Warblade (Re: Fighter) that gave a reason to have Intelligence, were not things a commoner could replicate, and we overall less linear in growth. It put martials, with very little optimization, squarely in the "sweet zone" of tier 3 (not overly powerful but not overly specialized or weak).

4e took this idea and ran with it when it came to martials. The Fighter had a reason to boost Wis (outside of saves)! They had features that a commoner couldn't replicate.

The alpha for 5e, 4e Essentials, showed what they was goomg to do with the fighter... Break its legs. Which is a shame because 4e Essentials has a ranger who is a fantastic martial that has options and abilities that are straight up extraordinary.

5e (4e Essentials with 3e shell) however... Went back to the time before Fighters (re: Martials) "learned to walk". The rogue is about the only well designed class out of the three primarily martial classes and even it has been hobbled.

The Battlemaster got turned into a pseudo caster. The champion is a commoner with proficiencies. The Eldritch Knight isn't a pure martial.

If you want to play anything outside or ordinary, you have to play a magic user. Extraordinary, non-magical awesome-sauce, is barely alive in 5e.

There is so much wasted due to this. Mike Mearles and co think that 4e was hated because the Fighter (re: martials) got cool things and could be extraordinary, as evidence in the backlash to pre-ToB, when what people hated was the look of 4e. Put 4e in a 3.5 shell and people will love it.

I'm sure they are out there but... I've never seen anyone say they hate that the fighter (or other martials) class got cool or extraordinary things. It was the magic-users (mainly wizard if I recall correctly) class that was the problem. That and the look lol.

Anecdotal: My friends in Pittsburgh played in a group where they took 4e classes and converted them to 3e's look/math while playing in 3.P games (DM was cool with it and promoted homebrew even if most of the group didn't lone homebrew). Everyone thought the Fighter and Warlock were 3e/PF stuff and had no problem with them mechanically. As long as they didn't see the 4e name and how the abilities looked, these staunch anti-4e haters loved playing in the group with these two classes.

Really, it reminds me of the beastmaster ranger... Most people dont have a problem with them mechanically... Just they don't look or feel right when played.

Anyways...

Got that off my fingers XD

It's like being able to drive a sports car but when you go buy a new car they only have sedans. Yeah the base model sedan **is** a car... But it doesn't have all the bells and whistles of the sports car (or the performance).

[Skeller]

Gotcha. I initially thought you were referring to 5E stuff before the actual release when they were playtesting it. I do agree that they need more. ToB may have been a bit much to put on anyone who wanted to play a fighter type(I personally prefer it as optional) but there was a lot of potential promise there that really was not carried over well enough.

[Theodoxus]

Maybe I'm thinking of the wrong one, but the last Ranger revision I saw had a few of the same problems as the base ranger.

Primarily that at level 1, you have nothing. Favored Enemy is still a joke and Natural Explorer is more likely to be forgotten.

You must be, because the newest revised Ranger basically throws the kitchen sink in at level 1 - seriously, Start Rogue for skills, take a level of ranger for the other goodies (Advantage to Initiative, Prof to Favored enemy attack, Humanoids being an FE...) then a second level of rogue for Cunning Action and you have a better martial base than any single class could ever provide.

Yeah, you don't get universe altering spells... but grab Swashbuckler for up to +10 (+15 with Alert) advantaged initiatives and always go first - can lock down enemy spellcasters on the first round with 60' BA dash and Expertise on Athletics to grapple the caster. Mage Slayer feat and that caster is boned with you hugging them to death... Yeah, it's feat intensive and a bit niche... but if you're building in that direction, it's pretty epic for a 4 level build (going Vuman for Mage Slayer @1, obviously).

@OP, my primary issue with how they're going about the UA is lack of feedback from the discussion. Especially with the killing of the WotC forums - because 'there's a lot of other forums out there that discussion happens.' That'd be great - but I don't see MM or JC posting here... Twitter sucks as a communication format due to small text sizes and ADHD style jumping of thoughts.

Having direct feedback, and a push/pull style of reconciliation would facilitate better communication - rather than 'hoping they get it right, let's read SCAG... oh, look sorcs got boned again.'

[jaappleton]

You must be, because the newest revised Ranger basically throws the kitchen sink in at level 1 - seriously, Start Rogue for skills, take a level of ranger for the other goodies (Advantage to Initiative, Prof to Favored enemy attack, Humanoids being an FE...) then a second level of rogue for Cunning Action and you have a better martial base than any single class could ever provide.

Yeah, you don't get universe altering spells... but grab Swashbuckler for up to +10 (+15 with Alert) advantaged initiatives and always go first - can lock down enemy spellcasters on the first round with 60' BA dash and Expertise on Athletics to grapple the caster. Mage Slayer feat and that caster is boned with you hugging them to death... Yeah, it's feat intensive and a bit niche... but if you're building in that direction, it's pretty epic for a 4 level build (going Vuman for Mage Slayer @1, obviously).

@OP, my primary issue with how they're going about the UA is lack of feedback from the discussion. Especially with the killing of the WotC forums - because 'there's a lot of other forums out there that discussion happens.' That'd be great - but I don't see MM or JC posting here... Twitter sucks as a communication format due to small text sizes and ADHD style jumping of thoughts.

Having direct feedback, and a push/pull style of reconciliation would facilitate better communication - rather than 'hoping they get it right, let's read SCAG... oh, look sorcs got boned again.'

I can't disagree with any of this. I don't think Mearls & Crawford have their finger on the pulse of what it is that fans want as far as content goes. I've seen a lot a love for Sigil and Eberron. I do think Eberron is coming, I've said that many times.

But as far as races, feats, spells, classes, and archetypes? I think they could be doing a lot more. We haven't seen a single new feat, though there's been ONE UA article on them. And I do understand that they need to be careful; There's the concern of power creep, unintended build combinations, etc. I do understand that, and because of that, I want them to take the time to get it right. But at the same time, I think they're missing the mark about half the time.

"Can we get some new spells to Cold Dragon Sorcs can be viable?"
"Here's the EE Player's Companion!"
"Cool, thanks for... Snilloc's Snowball Storm.... Damn it, ---- me sideways."

[ChubbyRain]

You must be, because the newest revised Ranger basically throws the kitchen sink in at level 1 - seriously, Start Rogue for skills, take a level of ranger for the other goodies (Advantage to Initiative, Prof to Favored enemy attack, Humanoids being an FE...) then a second level of rogue for Cunning Action and you have a better martial base than any single class could ever pprovide.'

Seems like crappy design when you need othwr classes...

[Theodoxus]

Seems like crappy design when you need other classes...

Perhaps... I call it crappy design when nearly everything is front loaded.

Barb 1; Cleric 1; Druid 2; Fighter 2; New Ranger 1; Paladin 2; Rogue 2; Sorc 3; Warlock 2; Wizard 2...

Depending on how often you want to use abilities, Bard and Monk are really the two primary classes that hurt the more they're mutliclassed with, though there are niche builds.

I love multiclassing, but I'd rather have more modular class builds. Like the 3.5 Unearthed Arcana book's take on Warrior/Scoundrel/Spell Caster - where you mix and match abilities in a build to customize the exact (well, nearly exact) character you want to play rather than grabbing the low hanging fruit of front loaded classes.

[Golbez57]

There's help coming. There's a Divine oriented book coming. Complete Divine? It was Kickstarted, and by all accounts it's looking good.

Book of the Righteous?

Still the best book on my gaming shelves!

[Finback]

I hear the next UA will have an insect PC race that isn't the kreen. (http://i2.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/005/222/beeweapon.jpg)

[DracoKnight]

I hear the next UA will have an insect PC race that isn't the kreen. (http://i2.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/005/222/beeweapon.jpg)

Can you share your source?

[Vaz]

I'm kinda surprised at the love Tome of Battle gets but Half Casters get told to sit in the corner because they're magical.

The only thing that seperates Initiators and Spellcasters is the effect of their spells. There is currently little difference between a Warlock or an Arcane Archer, except for their spell lists for example.

Let's put it clear. There is magic, and there is mundane. Supernatural, and natural. Being able to do Supernatural things (and I don't mean 'Su' as in 3.5e terms), but magical abilities.

A Fighter Champion has so many incredible abilities but they are thoroughly mundane. Supreme Efforts of will, without causing flames, summoning tornadoes, throwing seeds of doubt in peoples mind and throwing garrottes of pure fear, or striking hard enough to cause damage based on the esoteria of global unsubjective alignment.

All of those latters are hallmarks of magic users and Supernatural abilities, and despite being tagged as 'Ex' doesn't make them any less Supernatural in their occurence.

Now, I'm not saying that Fighters need to be simply in receipt of +1's for its career but magic is magic and things that magic do, such as big flashy effects shouldn't be replicated, given a different Lookup Tag, and told 'this is not the magic you are looking for'. If it looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck and all that.

I mean it also works the other way. Look at the Spirit Totem Barbarian, giving you Pounce. I don't think anyone remembers that it's Supernatural, because it doesn't feel magical.

The things I liked about the Warblade was that it made the Fighter more High Fantasy Fighter like.

But Making them a pseudo caster with spell slots isn't one of them.

[jas61292]

I'm kinda surprised at the love Tome of Battle gets but Half Casters get told to sit in the corner because they're magical.

The only thing that seperates Initiators and Spellcasters is the effect of their spells. There is currently little difference between a Warlock or an Arcane Archer, except for their spell lists for example.

Let's put it clear. There is magic, and there is mundane. Supernatural, and natural. Being able to do Supernatural things (and I don't mean 'Su' as in 3.5e terms), but magical abilities.

A Fighter Champion has so many incredible abilities but they are thoroughly mundane. Supreme Efforts of will, without causing flames, summoning tornadoes, throwing seeds of doubt in peoples mind and throwing garrottes of pure fear, or striking hard enough to cause damage based on the esoteria of global unsubjective alignment.

All of those latters are hallmarks of magic users and Supernatural abilities, and despite being tagged as 'Ex' doesn't make them any less Supernatural in their occurence.

Now, I'm not saying that Fighters need to be simply in receipt of +1's for its career but magic is magic and things that magic do, such as big flashy effects shouldn't be replicated, given a different Lookup Tag, and told 'this is not the magic you are looking for'. If it looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck and all that.

I mean it also works the other way. Look at the Spirit Totem Barbarian, giving you Pounce. I don't think anyone remembers that it's Supernatural, because it doesn't feel magical.

The things I liked about the Warblade was that it made the Fighter more High Fantasy Fighter like.

But Making them a pseudo caster with spell slots isn't one of them.

I agree completely with most of this. Magic is magic and non-magic is non-magic. Calling something clearly magical mundane does not make it so. Fighters and similar classes are what they are because they are not magic. And that is cool. Heroes who succeed through, potentially superhuman, but otherwise mundane means of strength, agility and intelligence are awesome characters. You don't need magic at all to be cool and powerful. But... trying to represent such characters using mechanics that are "mundane" only through a categorization technicality completely runs counter to the spirit of this kind of class.

Now, that said, I also always disliked ToB due to the fact that I think the most balanced classes in 3.5 was Tier 4, not Tier 3, and we already had a number of quality mundane classes there. To me, ToB was trying to "fix" the balance issue of magic vs mundane by trying to beak the mundane as hard as they broke magic, rather than the more sensible method which would have been actually trying to make balanced magical classes.

[Finback]

Can you share your source?

It was nothing more than a silly aside; that instead of something big or useful, we'd get something noone wanted or expected. Like a race of bee-folk.

[Regitnui]

It was nothing more than a silly aside; that instead of something big or useful, we'd get something noone wanted or expected. Like a race of bee-folk.

You mean the abeil (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abeil)?

[DracoKnight]

It was nothing more than a silly aside; that instead of something big or useful, we'd get something noone wanted or expected. Like a race of bee-folk.

Dang it. I was actually kinda interested in what that would look like :smalltongue:

[jaappleton]

Bee folk?

I'm naming my next PC Buntd,

(I applaud anyone who gets the reference)

[DracoKnight]

So tomorrow's the day.

[MasterMercury]

So tomorrow's the day.

Yep. Probably a bunch of rogue archetypes. I hope they're either really good or really bad, not of this middling: average nonsense.
Really good is preferable of course.

[DracoKnight]

Really good is preferable of course.

Of course.

Although, I think that it's going to be Sorcerer, not Rogue.

[MasterMercury]

Of course.

Although, I think that it's going to be Sorcerer, not Rogue.

Rogue is next on the list. There is no way they are only going to give the Rogue the one Ranger UA.

[DracoKnight]

Rogue is next on the list. There is no way they are only going to give the Rogue the one Ranger UA.

We already have a ton of different Rogues, though.

[MasterMercury]

We already have a ton of different Rogues, though.

We've had a ton of a lot of these classes. It's not like they will run dry on ideas for the Rogue.

[DracoKnight]

We've had a ton of a lot of these classes. It's not like they will run dry on ideas for the Rogue.

Very true.

Hmmmmm, if we do, in fact, get rogue tomorrow...I guess the one thing on my list is a Divine 1/3 caster. I've got one made, and i know Arkhios has one, but I'd like to see WotC give the Divine Rogue a pass.

[suplee215]

Due to the extended break I am expecting multiple classes, probably the last 3 spell casters unless they counted the Scout as a Ranger.

[DracoKnight]

Due to the extended break I am expecting multiple classes, probably the last 3 spell casters unless they counted the Scout as a Ranger.

The extended break was in part due to the team getting sick.

[Lonely Tylenol]

Rogue shouldn't be next on the list. The last UA was Ranger and Rogue. Looking forward to Sorcerer next.

[Deleted]

The extended break was in part due to the team getting sick.

What were they, Falcon fans?

[Kileonhardt]

What were they, Falcon fans?

I just had to check the forums and see this before bed huh. The god awful play calling and clock management in the second half does indeed make me sick. It was so bad that I do have to wonder if it's scripted sometimes.

In D&D news though, I really hope it's not going to be Rogue. It would be such a lackluster release for the amount of time we've had to wait.

[Arkhios]

At first I must say that when I played 3.5 I had zero issues with how the fighter was laid out. The sheer amount of customization through feats was ... Awesome!

AND I hated ToB. When I saw the book, I felt nauseous after the amount of new and "exciting" stuff, which just felt ridiculously overpowered compared to rules introduced before that. But I guess some people can't be pleased until new stuff comes, so that they can start complaining from the start :smallwink:

Having said that, now for the matter at hand:

I have no particular hopes for the next UA. Except that I want it immediately instead of soon :smalltongue:

[tsuyoshikentsu]

ToB was actually incredibly well-balanced; the classes in it were about on par with the Barbarian or the Rogue. It was actually the older classes being stupidly weak that was the issue.

[Arkhios]

ToB was actually incredibly well-balanced; the classes in it were about on par with the Barbarian or the Rogue. It was actually the older classes being stupidly weak that was the issue.

*shrug* like I said, I had no issues with them. YMMV.

[Beechgnome]

I'm hoping for either full sorcerer (fixed favoured soul & shadow, spirit shaman and maybe cosmic, elemental or a surprise) or 20 levels of mystic.

[INDYSTAR188]

I'm hoping for either full sorcerer (fixed favoured soul & shadow, spirit shaman and maybe cosmic, elemental or a surprise) or 20 levels of mystic.

I've never played or seen anyone play a Mystic (in any edition) could you please describe what makes it so awesome? I don't know that I've missed the niche they fill in 5E, but more options are usually better. I just see people call for them a lot, psionics just doesn't seem to do it for me though.

Edit to add: I hope to see more Sorcerer sub-classes but would be interested in reading about the Mystic.

[jaappleton]

Well, Mearls is originally from the Boston area. He is a Patriots and Celtics fan.

I imagine we'll see a Tom Brady, GOAT based Sorcerous Origin today. :smallbiggrin:

[Beechgnome]

I've never played or seen anyone play a Mystic (in any edition) could you please describe what makes it so awesome? I don't know that I've missed the niche they fill in 5E, but more options are usually better. I just see people call for them a lot, psionics just doesn't seem to do it for me though.

Edit to add: I hope to see more Sorcerer sub-classes but would be interested in reading about the Mystic.

To be honest, I don't have any experience playing them... but I like what I saw with Version 2, but it only went up to level 10.

As an aside, my group is working up a Marvel D&D scenario, and I want to make Vision, who is basically a Warforged Immortal Mystic. So there's that too. (Another guy in the group wants to make a Rock Gnome Artificer Gunsmith he has named Stony Tark... there's talk of an Orc berserker named Horc, you get the idea...)

[Sception]

What time of day to UA articles usually go up?

[Regitnui]

As an aside, my group is working up a Marvel D&D scenario, and I want to make Vision, who is basically a Warforged Immortal Mystic. So there's that too. (Another guy in the group wants to make a Rock Gnome Artificer Gunsmith he has named Stony Tark... there's talk of an Orc berserker named Horc, you get the idea...)

So you have a female drow monk named Shanata and a hammer-wielding Thunder Cleric hunting his wayward brother?

[jaappleton]

What time of day to UA articles usually go up?

I think it's Trevor Kidd that's in charge of uploading them. That's purely speculation, I don't know definitively. And since I believe they start work around 9am local time over in Redmond, Washington, I think they go up not long after. They're typically up by 10am local time, meaning by around 1pm EST. And... Figure out your own time zone from there. :smalltongue:

[Beechgnome]

So you have a female drow monk named Shanata and a hammer-wielding Thunder Cleric hunting his wayward brother?

Actually my thought was that the hammer wielder was a 20th level Goliath Storm Herald barbarian. With 24 strength and powerful build he'd be able to lift/drag 1440 pounds. Not quite the 100 or so tons Thor could lift in the comics, but oh well.

[INDYSTAR188]

To be honest, I don't have any experience playing them... but I like what I saw with Version 2, but it only went up to level 10.

As an aside, my group is working up a Marvel D&D scenario, and I want to make Vision, who is basically a Warforged Immortal Mystic. So there's that too. (Another guy in the group wants to make a Rock Gnome Artificer Gunsmith he has named Stony Tark... there's talk of an Orc berserker named Horc, you get the idea...)

Could you (or anyone) describe the abilities and fluff you particularly like about the Mystic? I'm thinking Professor X but thats prob not right.

[Beleriphon]

Could you (or anyone) describe the abilities and fluff you particularly like about the Mystic? I'm thinking Professor X but thats prob not right.

Somewhere between Psylock, Jean Grey and Professor X is where the mystic seems to be falling, given that its a riff on the old psionics rules.

[Beechgnome]

Could you (or anyone) describe the abilities and fluff you particularly like about the Mystic? I'm thinking Professor X but thats prob not right.

The immortal mystic is more combat focused. Disciplines include Body of Wind, where you can go gaseous, fly etc., and Iron Durability, where your Ac and toughness improves. So, Vision. (The Light Step talent, aka psionic cantrip, actually says you alter your density to go faster). I figure throw in mind vault to give him access to computer knowledge and third eye for heightened senses, and Psionic Weapon to make him good in a fight and I've got Vision, albeit probably holding a sword.

In some ways, the Immortal Mystic is like a Monk, except you are substituting Wisdom and Dexterity for Intelligence and (likely) Strength.

[Deleted]

I just had to check the forums and see this before bed huh. The god awful play calling and clock management in the second half does indeed make me sick. It was so bad that I do have to wonder if it's scripted sometimes.

In D&D news though, I really hope it's not going to be Rogue. It would be such a lackluster release for the amount of time we've had to wait.

Whats funny is that people said this was how the Pats were going to win. Let the Falcons tire themselces out and then the Pats go sick on them.

I'm neither a Pat's fan nor do I particularly care for the NFL anymore (Roger Goodell makes me sick) but I really hope we get a "Patriot" subclass for a lot of different classes.

[MarcFrey]

It's pretty much garanteed to be Sorcerer.

Tried a few different Url on the website rogue/warlock /mystic etc and only sorcerer brings you a "forbidden" page instead of sending you to the typical 'search' page.

New forums so I'm not allowed to link. But replace the end of "ranger-and-rogue" URL with sorcerer to see for yourself.

[Millstone85]

Could you (or anyone) describe the abilities and fluff you particularly like about the Mystic? I'm thinking Professor X but thats prob not right.I like the general explanation for psionics that was given along with the class. The practice of this art is symptomatic of a broken reality, which is why it is ubiquitous on the magic-ravaged world of Athas, well-known on the Xoriat-threatened world of Eberron and almost unheard of elsewhere. I think this is an interesting approach to the whole "I can't believe it is not magic" conundrum and a fair warning that your character might just feel like an odd wizard if the setting doesn't lend itself to the disctinction.

Mechanically, I like how each of your powers comes with a stance that doesn't take your concentration but must be your only stance at a time.

I am not fan of the names, though. A mystic? That could be anything. A psychic focus? The word "focus" has already been used for something else in the game.

[jaappleton]

It's pretty much garanteed to be Sorcerer.

Tried a few different Url on the website rogue/warlock /mystic etc and only sorcerer brings you a "forbidden" page instead of sending you to the typical 'search' page.

New forums so I'm not allowed to link. But replace the end of "ranger-and-rogue" URL with sorcerer to see for yourself.

It is Sorcerer.

I made a new topic with the names of the Origins.

[Regitnui]

The practice of this art is symptomatic of a broken reality, which is why it is ubiquitous on the magic-ravaged world of Athas, well-known on the Xoriat-threatened world of Eberron and almost unheard of elsewhere.

I can't argue with Athas, but that's not Eberron. The Daelkyr, the beings from Xoriat, are transmutation specialists. Psionics on Eberron almost exclusively comes from Dal Quor and the Quori. They seek to impose order on Eberron, so that the dreams of mortals do not change their reality. They don't want to break the world, but fix it. As do most of the other factions on Eberron. They just all have wildly different idea of what "fixed" means...

[MrFahrenheit]

Well they at least made favored soul less OP. Additional known spell choices instead of extra free spells. From a fluff standpoint, i think that it make sense more as a class on its own that uses pact magic (or a renamed equivalent), but it's fine from a mechanical perspective.

Blessed countenance potentially = free expertise in all of the cha skills. Not necessarily broken unless a player notices that the term "expertise" was not used, ergo the correct MC (bard or rogue at the appropriate levels) would grant additional double proficiency. I wouldn't allow that (and I can't imagine any DM would), but four expertise skills at once, when the other classes that give it split it up over two levels, seems strong.

Divine purity, on the other hand, seems weak.l for a fourteenth level ability, though YMMV - outright poison immunity spans the gamut from irrelevant to game-breakingly OP, campaign/setting dependent. So maybe it balances out?

As for Phoenix sorcery and the two others (sea and stone), I can't be the only one who thinks the former is basically terrible until level 18, and the latter have no redeeming qualities...

[Deleted]

I like the general explanation for psionics that was given along with the class. The practice of this art is symptomatic of a broken reality, which is why it is ubiquitous on the magic-ravaged world of Athas, well-known on the Xoriat-threatened world of Eberron and almost unheard of elsewhere. I think this is an interesting approach to the whole "I can't believe it is not magic" conundrum and a fair warning that your character might just feel like an odd wizard if the setting doesn't lend itself to the disctinction.

Mechanically, I like how each of your powers comes with a stance that doesn't take your concentration but must be your only stance at a time.

I am not fan of the names, though. A mystic? That could be anything. A psychic focus? The word "focus" has already been used for something else in the game.

I like the idea of all Psionic characters being called Psychics.

Though I also would like if they all were tied into the far realm. Have it where they are connected to that realm/plane directly but not to any individual creature (like a GoO Warlock is).

This would explain why their abilities work differently than arcane or divine magic (which divine magic is arcane magic but given to you via gods so thats why they act so simular... Warlocks gain invocations from GoO but not their spells).

These psychics would be scary to people because they could represent "leaks" in reality.

[rlc]

But the arcane archer literally has the word "arcane" in it's name. It might not cast spells, but it's definitely a magical archetype.

[Millstone85]

They don't want to break the world, but fix it.I believe that's the point.

In 4e, psionics were explained as a form of cosmic immune response. The multiverse itself was empowering people with the means to fix it.

My reading of the Mystic UA is that it keeps the concept but brings it back to the individual. As reality breaks down around a character and their own sanity starts to give way, their mind tries to reassert sense on it all. And sometimes it succeeds, for this situation has also laid bare the underlying foundation of reality and allowed the character to arm themself with it.

Also, Xoriat is basically Eberron's version of the Far Realm, which in turn often uses dreams to enter the multiverse. So Eberron's psionics being originally an innovation from the Plane of Dreams is not a problem.


I like the idea of all Psionic characters being called Psychics.Psychic is a damage type and there are many spells and features that can be described as psychic. I much prefer to call them psionicists (physics -> physicist, psionics -> psionicist) or psions for short.


These psychics would be scary to people because they could represent "leaks" in reality.4e offered an alternative interpretation where psionics were a Trojan horse from the Far Realm. True or not, some characters subscribed to this theory and hated psions.

[Deleted]

I believe that's the point.

In 4e, psionics were explained as a form of cosmic immune response. The multiverse itself was empowering people with the means to fix it.

My reading of the Mystic UA is that it keeps the concept but brings it back to the individual. As reality breaks down around a character and their own sanity starts to give way, their mind tries to reassert sense on it all. And sometimes it succeeds, for this situation has also laid bare the underlying foundation of reality and allowed the character to arm themself with it.

Also, Xoriat is basically Eberron's version of the Far Realm, which in turn often uses dreams to enter the multiverse. So Eberron's psionics being originally an innovation from the Plane of Dreams is not a problem.

Psychic is a damage type and there are many spells and features that can be described as psychic. I much prefer to call them psionicists (physics -> physicist, psionics -> psionicist) or psions for short.

4e offered an alternative interpretation where psionics were a Trojan horse from the Far Realm. True or not, some characters subscribed to this theory and hated psions.

There is also fire damage, fire resistance, fire elementals, and fire ganasi... Not seeing the problem with calling a general group of psionoc characters Psychics.

There is also unarmed defense and unarmored defense... Which one am I refering to the barbarian and which one am I refering to the monk?

There is also a melee weapon attack, melee strength weapon attack, weapon attack, finesse weapon attack, unarmed attack which is a weapon attack... :p

Like it or not, psionics have always been a hot topic in D&D. I can recall at least one fist fight back in the 90s about psionics. They should keep part of that re fluff and make it less "Trojan horse" and more just a natural phenomenon.

[Regitnui]

Also, Xoriat is basically Eberron's version of the Far Realm, which in turn often uses dreams to enter the multiverse. So Eberron's psionics being originally an innovation from the Plane of Dreams is not a problem.

Yes, Xoriat is basically the Far Realm, if by 'basically' you mean almost entirely wrong.

Dal Quor is an entirely separate plane to Xoriat. It's like you're claiming that fire magic can come from the Elemental Plane of Cold because "they have to warm themselves up somehow". While the flavour is right, where in the quori live on a mutable plane, and use their minds to enforce order on their cities and territories, they're by no means crazy, and Dal Quor isn't broken. Eberron is unfinished and under threat, but not broken in the same way Athas is. Eberron is a thriving plane with many threats, extraplanar and local. Athas is a post-apocalyptic desert ruined by the fantasy equivalent of nuclear power (defiling). Yes, they share psionics. But they share almost nothing else.

A mystic is someone who has learned to force their will on the world without the use of magic. This is learned from Quori, from the Plane of Nightmares, those who are bonded with them or those who learned from them. Most Good mystics in Eberron are more like the Jedi, practicing a rare art based around peace and serenity.

In Athas, which doesn't have any outer planes, psionics were a mutation caused by the Apocalypse. It's less mystics and more everyone taking the magic initiate feat for a few psionic spells.

The Far Realm might be the source of psionics in FR, but that does not hold true for the other planes of existence, with their own cosmology.

[Deleted]

Yes, Xoriat is basically the Far Realm, if by 'basically' you mean almost entirely wrong.

Dal Quor is an entirely separate plane to Xoriat. It's like you're claiming that fire magic can come from the Elemental Plane of Cold because "they have to warm themselves up somehow". While the flavour is right, where in the quori live on a mutable plane, and use their minds to enforce order on their cities and territories, they're by no means crazy, and Dal Quor isn't broken. Eberron is unfinished and under threat, but not broken in the same way Athas is. Eberron is a thriving plane with many threats, extraplanar and local. Athas is a post-apocalyptic desert ruined by the fantasy equivalent of nuclear power (defiling). Yes, they share psionics. But they share almost nothing else.

A mystic is someone who has learned to force their will on the world without the use of magic. This is learned from Quori, from the Plane of Nightmares, those who are bonded with them or those who learned from them. Most Good mystics in Eberron are more like the Jedi, practicing a rare art based around peace and serenity.

In Athas, which doesn't have any outer planes, psionics were a mutation caused by the Apocalypse. It's less mystics and more everyone taking the magic initiate feat for a few psionic spells powers.

The Far Realm might be the source of psionics in FR, but that does not hold true for the other planes of existence, with their own cosmology.

I just wanted to be a stinker.

[SharkForce]

Yes, Xoriat is basically the Far Realm, if by 'basically' you mean almost entirely wrong.

Dal Quor is an entirely separate plane to Xoriat. It's like you're claiming that fire magic can come from the Elemental Plane of Cold because "they have to warm themselves up somehow". While the flavour is right, where in the quori live on a mutable plane, and use their minds to enforce order on their cities and territories, they're by no means crazy, and Dal Quor isn't broken. Eberron is unfinished and under threat, but not broken in the same way Athas is. Eberron is a thriving plane with many threats, extraplanar and local. Athas is a post-apocalyptic desert ruined by the fantasy equivalent of nuclear power (defiling). Yes, they share psionics. But they share almost nothing else.

A mystic is someone who has learned to force their will on the world without the use of magic. This is learned from Quori, from the Plane of Nightmares, those who are bonded with them or those who learned from them. Most Good mystics in Eberron are more like the Jedi, practicing a rare art based around peace and serenity.

In Athas, which doesn't have any outer planes, psionics were a mutation caused by the Apocalypse. It's less mystics and more everyone taking the magic initiate feat for a few psionic spells.

The Far Realm might be the source of psionics in FR, but that does not hold true for the other planes of existence, with their own cosmology.

i can relate to your frustration here... WotC is pushing their new cosmology hard, and unfortunately, it seems to be the only thing they're not dedicated to capturing the feel of from older editions.

i don't want the stupid shadowfell or feywild in my world (unless it's birthright, in which case that's basically where they stole it from anyways). but wizards just can't keep from having everything connected to them if it's remotely possible. they can't even just leave it unspecified, it feels like.

i recommend the solution that has worked for me: just completely ignore every piece of flavour text WotC writes. if you're anything like me, you probably have the old setting material that you like anyways. so why would you bother paying any attention to whatever random garbage they're spewing today as they try to "update" your setting (to something you don't want it to be anyways). if the spellplague sounds like a stupid idea to you, well, with any luck you have your forgotten realms books from before, and you can just use those for setting information. if you don't want them to get their stupid far realm into your xoriat, and you especially don't want it coming anywhere near your dal quor (nor do you want their stupid shadowfell in your mabar, etc), it's quite simple: they publish flavour text for the new psionics rules, and you call that flavour text names, inform it that your dad could beat up it's dad, and mercilessly purge all that useless junk from what will hopefully be perfectly good crunch.

(and if the crunch is no good, that means you don't need to sift through it for the good stuff... also, sadly, that you'll probably either have to publish your own crunch, or wait for someone else to do it for you).

[Regitnui]

i can relate to your frustration here... WotC is pushing their new cosmology hard, and unfortunately, it seems to be the only thing they're not dedicated to capturing the feel of from older editions.


Hang on a second there. I didn't say I didn't like the far realm. It's just not the source of psionics in Eberron. If I recall correctly, it wasn't even the default fluff for the mystic, but one of the options. Xoriat informed the Far Realm for 3.5 and 4, so if anything, it's "getting your Far Realm in my Xoriat".

[Millstone85]

Yes, Xoriat is basically the Far Realm, if by 'basically' you mean almost entirely wrong.
Xoriat informed the Far Realm for 3.5 and 4, so if anything, it's "getting your Far Realm in my Xoriat".Don't you mean "getting your Xoriat in my Far Realm"? Otherwise, you are just repeating what SharkForce said.

Not that it matters. So what if Eberron did it first? At present, the Far Realm is the setting-unspecific or default-PHB-setting concept, while Xoriat is the Eberron version. A goolock met in Khorvaire would probably have something to do with the daelkyr.


Dal Quor is an entirely separate plane to Xoriat.I never claimed that Dal Quor and Xoriat were the same plane, only that Dal Quor would probably have been the first plane to feel the influence of Xoriat and react to it, because Lovecraftian stories often start with weird dreams. I was offering a way to reconcile the new fluff from the mystic UA with the classic origin of Eberron's psionics.


If I recall correctly, it wasn't even the default fluff for the mystic, but one of the options.Quotes from the UA:
Psionics indirectly originates from the Far Realm, a dimension outside the bounds of the known multiverse.
As the laws of reality twist and turn, individual minds can be awakened to the cosmic underpinnings that dictate the form and nature of reality.
The realm of Athas in the Dark Sun campaign setting is the prime example of a world where psionics is common. The gods are absent, magic has been twisted into an ecological scourge, and the common threads that bind many worlds of D&D have been sundered. By contrast, the world Eberron is a setting where the bounds of reality have been tested but not fully broken. Psionics is not as pervasive in Eberron as in Athas, but the influence of the otherworldly realm of Xoriat makes it a known and studied art.Though the Far Realm is the first thing they mentioned, the Dark Sun example does make it clear it is not needed. And yeah, for Eberron, they blame Xoriat.

[Regitnui]

Quotes from the UA:Though the Far Realm is the first thing they mentioned, the Dark Sun example does make it clear it is not needed. And yeah, for Eberron, they blame Xoriat.

All apologies to you. Then they're the ones who need to be smacked over the head with a copy of Secrets of Sarlona...