Background features trivializing both challenges and benefits

[quinron]

The first major 5e game I ran, the party had an Outlander. As a DM new to the edition with a lot of first-time players, I was grateful that I didn't have to constantly have the group making Survival/Nature checks to keep from getting lost and I didn't have to worry about keeping track of their food and water rations.

In my most recent game, however, I'm finding that characters' background features are completely removing some of the more mundane challenges of the world. With an Outlander, there's never a need to plan before going on a cross-country adventure - the group can just forage without having to roll, and if they get lost, they can just backtrack through the countryside that they've completely memorized now.

In contrast, the Criminals in the party are feeling like they get very little out of their background feature - unless they stay in the same city forever or I indulge in some nauseatingly Dickensian coincidences, they'll get almost no use out of their Criminal Contact feature.

It's getting to the point where I want to house rule out these features in my future games. It seems several backgrounds get a lot out of them, while others get next to nothing, or at least nothing they can't get through deception or persuasion.

Has anyone else been annoyed, frustrated, stymied, etc., by these features? If so, did you find a creative solution?

[Toadkiller]

There doesn't have to be something to forage. Background features should usually work, but they needn't be infallible.

[Toadkiller]

I read all, or most anyhow, of the original Tarzan books when I was a kid (I'm really old). He was pretty much the ultimate outlander. There were stories where he was starving to death in the wild. Cause it made a good story.

In the end his "background" always paid a big part in the story. But it got bent to fit the need of the narrative. Do that.

[Foxhound438]

In the specific case of your problem with outlanders, you could do multiple things:

1st off, send them through the desert. Yeah, it will probably feel to them like a giant middle finger to the face to have that thrown at them, but with proper in-game warning it should be fine.

2nd, put them through "magical terrain", such as foreign planes of existence. They can still get lost there just fine.


However, you really should be ecstatic that your players are even thinking about their background features (and their backgrounds altogether, as it happens), because my players seem to play exclusively with their class. Doesn't matter what background they have, some players will just keep on playing the same character over and over again, down the ages forever. Hell, one of my players doesn't even have their background written on their sheet.

[Cespenar]

Yes, Outlander seems to dominate in natural surroundings, much more so than other backgrounds. I mean, guaranteed foraging and complete memorization come on a bit too strong, not because it's OP but it does too much for its niche. It also trivializes the Nature and Survival skills a lot. In several places in one of our games, where the DM would make us roll for Survival, the group Barbarian just went "Outlander!", which solved the issue.

I'd make it boost Nature and Survival instead: like, if you find anything, you find enough to feed the whole group instead of just you, and reduce the memorization to such a degree that it only guarantees you won't make basic mistakes like looping back to where you've been or similar stuff. Not photographic memory and perfect cartographer all in one.

About other backgrounds, Criminal Contacts should spread to other settlements as well, not just one guy in one city. Lesser Contacts, maybe.

Also, again in my experience, Hermit's Discovery seems too open ended for some DMs to make anything out of. While other features are somewhat vague as well, they often can net some tangible benefits, but Discovery seems like something the DM should be doing anyway, which is providing a plot hook.

[quinron]

Cespenar, you better outlined a major point that I didn't totally realize was a big part of the problem: the background features are too wildly different.

The most common feature is one that grants you lodging or similar for free sometimes - that's the case for over half of them (Acolyte, Entertainer, Folk Hero, Guild Artisan, Noble, Sailor, and Soldier, specifically). But even those are uneven - most only allow you free room and board in specific lodgings, but Entertainer lets you room and eat free wherever there are enough people to constitute an audience.

The others vary between "something I could already do without a clear idea of how this helps me do it better" (Sage and Criminal basically just let you bypass some Investigation/knowledge checks) to "stepping on a class feature's toes" (Charlatan, for the Assassin's Infiltration Expert) to "plot hook that has to be worked into the campaign" (Hermit, as pointed out) to "completely trivializes certain challenges unless the DM goes out of their way to make those challenges again" (Outlander and, to a lesser but still appreciable degree, Urchin).

[MrWesson22]

You could always encourage your players to use the custom background option right there in the PHB.

[Giant2005]

It isn't so bad as long as you make them stick to the packages as presented. That Outlander gives up a lot in that background.
One of their tool/language proficiencies is a musical instrument (which are the least useful in that category), one of the skills is Survival (which the background feature renders basically obsolete - or the skill renders the background obsolete depending on how you look at it), and they receive only 17g and 2s worth of equipment (which places them in the bottom 4 backgrounds when it comes to monetary value of equipment).

[Potato_Priest]

So, in both my most recent campaign in a sort of nordic/celtic low-tech, low-magic area, I made background features that did more, and had clearer mechanical benefits. Only one of the characters in my campaign really plays by their background (logger) but they get a real kick out of chewing sap and whacking down trees, so that's good. My friend AdmiralCattus is going to be DMing a campaign that takes the more powerful background thing even further, and I think it's going to be great.

Thus, I believe that the solution to the problem is to just design your own backgrounds for a campaign. It takes a little work, but you can very easily do away with mechanics that aren't fun in a survival campaign (like the outlander's) and replace them with something more thematic. In my campaign, the Hunter got a feature that gave them animal calls they could use to attract or repel game, and the fisherman got a feature that gave them advantages when crafting tools and other things from the bodies of marine animals. These lent themselves towards more active focus on hunting or fishing, rather than just walking through the woods without worrying about food.

P.S. I also ban Goodberry in any wilderness campaign.

[Tanarii]

It's powerful. But there are downsides:

Most importantly, any character foraging for the party will be automatically surprised by stealthy enemies attempting to ambush. See chapter 8 Adventuring.

Secondly, knowing the general layout of the area around you doesn't prevent you from getting lost. If you're reading it that way, you're overpowering the feature. It just allows you to know that the places are there. You still need to make survival checks to not get lost if you try to navigate to one of those places. You do get advantage on the survival check, per having an accurate map. See the DMG becoming lost rules for how to make those checks.

Additionally, navigating also results in the character automatically being surprised by stealthy enemies. Again chapter 8 adventuring.

Edit: this reminds me of Researcher. People skim it and think it makes Lore checks pointless. It doesn't. They still matter. Reacher only kicks in if you fail a check, and then you still need time to get to the place where the info is. It's still really powerful, on par with Wanderer. But ... in the right kind of game, almost any of them are powerful. Criminal contact is absolutely bomb in a urban campaign. Ditto Military rank and Guild business in the right campaigns. Etc etc.

[Hrugner]

Outlander only becomes amazing when coupled with a Ranger's Natural Explorer feature. At that point you're moving at full speed through difficult terrain while foraging enough for 12 people, tracking, and navigating, all without losing the ability to keep an eye out. But that's a level and a background invested in being the ultimate outdoorsman. It's probably not worth double dipping, but if you want a more rangery character without that level of ranger, then outlander is a good way to go. It seems good, but I don't think it outshines free healing at temples from Acolyte, or get out of jail free from Sailor:Pirate or Guild Artisan.

Just treat backgrounds like near automatic success in some skill check in the right situation. A criminal knows how to find contacts, a Soldier knows how to persuade lower ranking soldiers, A noble knows how to influence lesser dignitaries, a guild artisan gets a bunch of stuff but pays for it. If auto-survival doesn't suit the campaign then maybe ditch outlander, but there are many other auto-survival features that would need to be pruned too, including the ranger class, goodberry, create food and water and so on. Your DM will also need to rule several minor creation abilities as not being able to make food.

[Tanarii]

Outlander only becomes amazing when coupled with a Ranger's Natural Explorer feature.

Not really. I mean, Natural Explorer basically is more powerful than both of wanderers benefits, so the background feature becomes mostly useless when NE applies. You usually forage better with NE, and you can't get lost. The only thing that wanderer still provides is a basic map in your head of the surrounding area.

Otoh I think it's really funny when people say to make a ranger, you just take any class with Outlander. They've clearly never read NE or Wanderer.

[Hrugner]

Not really. I mean, Natural Explorer basically is more powerful than both of wanderers benefits, so the background feature becomes mostly useless when NE applies. You usually forage better with NE, and you can't get lost. The only thing that wanderer still provides is a basic map in your head of the surrounding area.

Otoh I think it's really funny when people say to make a ranger, you just take any class with Outlander. They've clearly never read NE or Wanderer.

the ranger ability lets you double your forage, and the outlander sets a high amount of forage at 6 people. That's a big deal if you want everyone able to keep a look out and bring along a large cohort. Natural explorer means you can't get lost except by magical means, and the map memorization means that if you do become lost by magical means you have a good chance of recognizing where you ended up. I think they complement each other pretty well really.

Having read both, I honestly think the outlander background is more than enough to satisfy the general need for a ranger. You don't auto succeed, and you can't blitz your party over difficult terrain at top speed, but you are proficient in survival and can still keep the party alive in the wilderness indefinitely. That's often more than enough outdoorsmanship for a party, so having a different class as well as being an outlander is often a better deal.

That said, I still enjoy playing my ranger; though blitzing the party over rugged terrain truncates overland chases enough that I think it may be irritating the DM.

[Cespenar]

It's powerful. But there are downsides:

Most importantly, any character foraging for the party will be automatically surprised by stealthy enemies attempting to ambush. See chapter 8 Adventuring.

That's why you couple it with a guy who keeps an eye out. That's basic tactics, not a downside of Outlander.

[Tanarii]

the ranger ability lets you double your forage, and the outlander sets a high amount of forage at 6 people.As far as I can tell, they don't stack. You double your normal forage, or you feed 5 people. If you dump wisdom it's possible to get less than less than 5 on (1d6+Wis)x2, but not that easy. So it effectively sets a floor of 5 if you fail the check.

However, if you choose to interpret it as either double the 5, with the typical Ranger Wis (say starting at 14, going to 16 at some point), you're still going to exceed 10 on (1d6+2)x2 more than half the time.

Also you can use normal forage gathered food to feed mounts, and it also gets you water, unlike wanderer.

Regardless, yeah I'll concede it's not a completely wasted feature. First of all NE doesn't apply to all terrains. And even if you exceed the forage easily, it still covers you in the case of a failed Survival check.

Edit:

That's why you couple it with a guy who keeps an eye out. That's basic tactics, not a downside of Outlander.
Surprise is determined individually for each character via Passive Perception vs the all the other sides Stealth check, with one failed stealth check meaning that specific character isn't surprised. Any character Mapping, Foraging, Navigating or Tracking doesn't get to make passive perception checks, so they are automatically surprised if there is a surprise check situation (ie ambush).
PHB 182-183, 189

That's why Rangers Natural Explorer is a huge advantage. They can do some of those things and not be automatically surprised.

[Cespenar]

Surprise is determined individually for each character via Passive Perception vs the all the other sides Stealth check, with one failed stealth check meaning that specific character isn't surprised. Any character Mapping, Foraging, Navigating or Tracking doesn't get to make passive perception checks, so they are automatically surprised if there is a surprise check situation (ie ambush).
PHB 182-183, 189

That's why Rangers Natural Explorer is a huge advantage. They can do some of those things and not be automatically surprised.

Ambushes don't happen in the open wilderness as often as that. Someone actually needs to know you'll go through a certain point, and lie in ambush there beforehand. Of course, in that situation, the foraging guy has it coming.

For example, bandits may lie in ambush on a road. But if you're foraging, you're probably not using roads and are knee deep in the wild anyway. Creatures don't just lie in ambush in every inch of the wilderness.

Or predators may ambush your camp at night, but you're not likely to be foraging at night either.

In normal, more organic situations, the scouts of the two groups encounter each other instead, and things evolve from there.

[Tanarii]

okay, it's a fair point. Using scouts is intelligent. There are rules to have a scout out as a 'separate party' who might notice a threat before that point and groin up with the party to warn them. But a surprising number of player groups don't do that because you don't split the party.

And the DM might choose to allow the non-occupied to notice something is up long prior to the start of an encounter, giving you time to stop doing whatever you were doing, and maybe send a scout to investigate.

The flexibility of the rules can account for that kind of situation. But that's not in the rules for surprise. The hard rules are in a surprise situation as determined by the DM, you make a single stealth check at the beginning of combat. And the rules are while traveling (which includes moving around an adventure site or dungeon) those activities deny you passive perception to notice threats. So you're counting on your DM to not determine at any point while you're undertaking those activities that a surprise situation will occur.

[Madbox]

There's a joke about the background features in the area where I live: They work until the plot says otherwise.

Now to be fair, the D&D scene in my area is pretty heavy into Adventurer's League, so our perception may be skewed. But in my experience, players are fine with plot overruling the PHB. You can find food if it's available? Well, there's none available, all the plants are poisonous and the animals are too skittish. You can't get lost? Something or other areaofwild magicawizarddiditsomegodhatesyourguts you get lost anyway.

Like I said, though, my local scene is mostly AL, so that stuff is expected.