General languages thread

[Comrade]

I was initially just going to post this thread to ask a question relating to a language (specifically, Danish), but I've seen other forums that had threads for general discussion of languages, and I noticed there isn't such a thread here. So here we go, a thread for folks to discuss languages they're learning, languages they already know, languages they're interested in, the like.

Now, as to the question that inspired me to get this thread going: I'm learning Danish and I'm finding that I struggle with conversations because of lack of people to chat with (other than my tutor). Does anybody here know of any means to meet conversation partners on the internet (via IMs, for example, not necessarily voice chatting) to practise one's conversational skills in a language?

[Jon_Dahl]

Now here's a subject I know intimately.

I have tried to learn a handful of languages through various methods: Distance learning, private teachers, language tapes, reading books, switching all my programs and cell phone into that language, and I could list a lot more here. If you wish, I can tell you more, but it will be a very long essay.

What is the best method, by far, to learn a language is to have daily social interaction in that language. But how to get that? I have have about a dozen friends who all speak language X with me, but the problem is that a friend, especially a new friend, tends to rank very low in importance. My friends tell me that they have to take care of their baby, work, socialize with their family and study when I want to talk. I don't like that. I want to communicate and you want that too.

The solution is very simple: get a boyfriend/girlfriend/lover who speaks language X natively. For instance, I found my current girlfriend who happens to be a teacher with MA in history (done in language X) from a website called ********.com. It took me about a month to find her. She's an incredible woman and she makes me happy, and she corrects my pronunciation and grammar like a true teacher, and since I'm her boyfriend, she ranks me and my questions and our daily communication very, very high in her daily routine.

So assuming you're a heterosexual woman, sign up to **********.com right now and get yourself a Danish boyfriend candidate. I'm sure that you're an attracting woman and you seem to have good communication skills, so after a month or so of skyping and message bombardment in Whatsapp you will find your Danish radically improved. Then you need to travel to meet him, of course, and your language skills will go through the roof. I promise to eat my hat if this doesn't happen. Good luck.

[Razade]

This has been a paid advertisement for POF.com


As an average U.S citizen we get the generic French, Spanish or sometimes German language programs here. I could, if really needed to, hold a conversation in Spanish. I've played around with the idea of learning German considering English is a Germanic language but I don't know how I'd use it in day to day life. I live in the South West and I don't even really need to know Spanish to get around.

[Jon_Dahl]

What? A paid advertisement? If that's the case, I will edit my message and remove all references to the said website.

[SaintRidley]

I've started building my own textbook/workbook for Icelandic, poking my poet on facebook for clarification when I run into something I can't crack with any of my dictionaries. It's still early stages, but I think it's working, and could well become a publishable product with some editing work down the line.

Suffice to say: Ég læra íslensku. Íslensku er góð mál.

[Corlindale]

I am a native speaker myself, but I hear Danish can be pretty tricky to learn. Especially the articles, since there aren't really any standard rules like you've got with a/an in English. It's also supposed to sound pretty weird to non-native speakers.

I probably don't have the time for language training chats, but I can point you in the direction of some good Danish music or some interesting Danish books if you're interested in that.

A strategy I have sometimes used when attempting to learn a new language is to switch my Steam language into that language, so all my games are translated into said language. It's probably not super-useful for Danish, though, since few games get Danish localization. And of course it only applies if you're a gamer :smallsmile:

I once knew of a website specifically dedicated to setting up language-learning chatting between different nationalities, but the name escapes me at the moment.

[T-Mick]

General language thread? Does anyone have experience with dead languages? I'm too much a nerd when it comes to Latin. The nice thing is that you can find speakers without much difficulty, if you know where to look. Spoken Latin is one of the most primary joys in life. (Plus, in my experience, the girls who speak it tend not only to be A+ in looks, but they're usually good little church-goers to boot. Moral of the story: if you want to find a faithful wife, learn Latin!)

I learn languages by throwing myself at them. The more I read and say the words, be better I get it. I hate using grammars, I hate lessons. You can learn a language just be being exposed to it, trust me. Get a dictionary and a big book/native speaker. Lately, I've been doing Old English for kicks and giggles, and looking at Moroccan Darija because a friend of mine speaks it, and it's an interesting pidgin thing! Hebrew is cool too, but I haven't gotten much into the Semitic tongues much yet. Maybe Moroccan is my gateway drug.

Any conlangers in the playground? I've been thinking about getting into that scene, just so I can satisfy my increasingly picky tastes in aesthetic. English makes me sad some days.

OOH!

I live in South Louisiana, so we have Cajun French speakers here! I've never had much an interest in French itself, but the local dialect has a strong draw as my heritage. I'll get to it. The poetry scene is thriving, by the way, in Cajun French, because of the local love of dancing and thirst for new music. I'm not complaining!


I've played around with the idea of learning German considering English is a Germanic language but I don't know how I'd use it in day to day life.

German is a really cool language, but going in looking to leverage the "English is Germanic" thing is less useful than you'd think. English is a weird bird.

I've always been of the mind that if you want to really be able to say you're an educated person, you must learn French, German, English, Greek, and Latin. Those are just the languages of scholarship. You'd use them to read what actually smart people have written, if nothing else! Start where you please, and enjoy! :smallbiggrin:

Long post. Sorry! This is my kind of thread! :smallcool:

[Comrade]

I am a native speaker myself, but I hear Danish can be pretty tricky to learn.
It's certainly giving me no shortage of trouble. Probably the main issue is understanding spoken Danish; even when my tutor is speaking fairly slowly, I still get kind of overwhelmed because I feel like I have to unpack every single word, figure out which parts are and aren't being pronounced so I can determine which word it is, and then move on to the next. Not a very efficient system.

And any book recommendations to help with comprehension would be much appreciated!


General language thread? Does anyone have experience with dead languages?

I haven't learned any but I do have a vested fascination with paleo-Siberian, Aleut/Yupik, Siberian Turkic, and Tungusic languages, including moribund and extinct ones. Suffice it to say it's a whole lot harder to find opportunities to learn Yukaghir than Latin, so my interest will probably remain purely 'theoretical', so to speak.

[SaintRidley]

On dead languages, I work a lot with Old English, a little with Old Norse, and am more or less competent with medieval Latin.

[Inevitability]

I'd like to call everyone's attention to a very peculiar Dutch word: 'gezelligheid (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gezelligheid)'.

EDIT: Also, apparently the word 'Ietsism' (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ietsism) is used outside the Netherlands. I always figured other languages had their own word for it (somethingism?).

[Comrade]

I'd like to call everyone's attention to a very peculiar Dutch word: 'gezelligheid (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gezelligheid)'.


Sounds like a dead ringer for Denmark's 'hygge' (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hygge), both in definition and in its place in Dutch culture.

[lio45]

OOH!

I live in South Louisiana, so we have Cajun French speakers here! I've never had much an interest in French itself, but the local dialect has a strong draw as my heritage. I'll get to it. The poetry scene is thriving, by the way, in Cajun French, because of the local love of dancing and thirst for new music. I'm not complaining!

You guys still do? I recall stopping once, back in 2004, and getting out of my way to try to find French speakers (this was in Lafayette), and managed to converse a bit with a few very old gentlemen, who sadly are probably dead now, so I have been assuming that doing this again is permanently off the table forever.

My native language is Québécois French, and my business takes me to Texas on occasion, I often drive, so I have passed through LA many times, though of course I usually don't bother to try and speak French.

If the language is still kept alive and not dying, then that's something I'm glad to hear.

Also, I personally am 50% Acadian and all the family names on that side of my family have their weird modified yet direct equivalents in Louisiana :)

[lio45]

Now here's a subject I know intimately.

I have tried to learn a handful of languages through various methods: Distance learning, private teachers, language tapes, reading books, switching all my programs and cell phone into that language, and I could list a lot more here. If you wish, I can tell you more, but it will be a very long essay.

What is the best method, by far, to learn a language is to have daily social interaction in that language. But how to get that? I have have about a dozen friends who all speak language X with me, but the problem is that a friend, especially a new friend, tends to rank very low in importance. My friends tell me that they have to take care of their baby, work, socialize with their family and study when I want to talk. I don't like that. I want to communicate and you want that too.

The solution is very simple: get a boyfriend/girlfriend/lover who speaks language X natively. For instance, I found my current girlfriend who happens to be a teacher with MA in history (done in language X) from a website called ********.com. It took me about a month to find her. She's an incredible woman and she makes me happy, and she corrects my pronunciation and grammar like a true teacher, and since I'm her boyfriend, she ranks me and my questions and our daily communication very, very high in her daily routine.

So assuming you're a heterosexual woman, sign up to **********.com right now and get yourself a Danish boyfriend candidate. I'm sure that you're an attracting woman and you seem to have good communication skills, so after a month or so of skyping and message bombardment in Whatsapp you will find your Danish radically improved. Then you need to travel to meet him, of course, and your language skills will go through the roof. I promise to eat my hat if this doesn't happen. Good luck.

Yeah, no, it's not that easy.

It's much easier to do it Jon Dahl Style when your "target market" is an emerging country while you yourself are from a first world one.

She can't find Mail Order Danish Brides as easily as your experience would lead one to believe at first sight, because Danes generally don't really need rich foreign white knights to lift them out of poverty.

Plus, if you've been paying attention, you know she kind of already did exactly what you are recommending (except gf instead of bf, because lesbian) and it did not end so well.

[T-Mick]

You guys still do? I recall stopping once, back in 2004, and getting out of my way to try to find French speakers (this was in Lafayette), and managed to converse a bit with a few very old gentlemen, who sadly are probably dead now, so I have been assuming that doing this again is permanently off the table forever.

My native language is Québécois French, and my business takes me to Texas on occasion, I often drive, so I have passed through LA many times, though of course I usually don't bother to try and speak French.

If the language is still kept alive and not dying, then that's something I'm glad to hear.

Also, I personally am 50% Acadian and all the family names on that side of my family have their weird modified yet direct equivalents in Louisiana :)

Lafayette is kind of a hub-city with most of the population (myself included) in the surrounding towns. It's in the small towns you find the French speakers. Lots of cafe's have designated meeting times for them, which is the easiest way for the curious to find a group. Usually they're very well attended. Dr. Barry Ancelet comes and goes, which is kind of surreal. There's a lot of interest from the younger sorts, so hopefully enough gets transferred from our grandparents to us. I REALLY should be getting in on this.

One fun thing is dialectical differences. My grandparents speak the French of my city, not the city across the bayou. I don't really understand the difference, but the way they talk about, say, people from New Iberia, reminds me of the Hobbits' trashing their Buckland cousins in the "Fellowship of the Ring."

[BWR]

Lacking people to talk with I would just go to Youtube and watch every video you can find with Danish speakers and see if you can understand them. Startin, since I can never resist an opportunity to link to it, this (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s-mOy8VUEBk)one. :smallbiggrin:

You might also ask the mods/Giant if you could start a thread for learning written Danish here, in violation of the usual "English only!" rule. I couldn't help with the Danish, but exposing you to the other Scandinavian languages is good and the differences between written bokmål Norwegian and Danish are many but minimal. Basic grammar and vocabulary is almost identical.

[Comrade]

Lacking people to talk with I would just go to Youtube and watch every video you can find with Danish speakers and see if you can understand them. Startin, since I can never resist an opportunity to link to it, this (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s-mOy8VUEBk)one. :smallbiggrin:

You might also ask the mods/Giant if you could start a thread for learning written Danish here, in violation of the usual "English only!" rule.

My Danish tutor actually showed me that video! Actually, I could pretty easily read the subtitles with certain exceptions, even though they're in Norwegian, so that's encouraging; my conversation skills may be abysmal, but at least my reading and writing is alright.

Sadly I don't think that would fly, both because of the English only standard and because I don't know of any other Danish learners here who'd use it.


I couldn't help with the Danish, but exposing you to the other Scandinavian languages is good and the differences between written bokmål Norwegian and Danish are many but minimal. Basic grammar and vocabulary is almost identical.
That's been my tactic thus far for lack of Danish speakers to practise with. One of my best friends is Swedish and our weird Swedish-Danish conversations have actually been pretty helpful.

[DracoknightZero]

Well i am Norwegian which is heavily based on Danish at least in written sense, though there is some variants its still understandable.

When it comes to the Scandinavian languages (exception of Finland) they are similar enough that you could understand eachother without much effort.
Though i personally have no idea what the danish say as their vocal version of the language is what i would call "garble" compared to their swedish counterparts.

But all-in-all Norwegian is basically just a modified Danish when it comes to writing, we keep most of the grammar between us. The letters are slightly different, but vocally there is a great deal of norwegians and swedish that cant understand Danish.

[BWR]

Well i am Norwegian which is heavily based on Danish at least in written sense, though there is some variants its still understandable.

When it comes to the Scandinavian languages (exception of Finland) they are similar enough that you could understand eachother without much effort.
Though i personally have no idea what the danish say as their vocal version of the language is what i would call "garble" compared to their swedish counterparts.

But all-in-all Norwegian is basically just a modified Danish when it comes to writing, we keep most of the grammar between us. The letters are slightly different, but vocally there is a great deal of norwegians and swedish that cant understand Danish.

1. Finland isn't a part of Scandinavia.
2. Only Bokmål is primarily Danish (though the differences are slowly increasing). Nynorsk is a bit weirder, but that's to be expected when a guy makes an amalgamation of various regional dialects using written Danish as a base for how to write it, then the mix is forced into public use. Norway is the only country I know of with two official languages that are for all intents and purposes identical - just some niggling irrelevancies they force us to learn in school.

[FinnLassie]

People that use Duolingo - how helpful have you found it? Because I get so and utterly frustrated with it. Aargh. Maybe it's just not the way for me to learn. Currently attempting Spanish due to a future trip to Spain, so maybe it's sufficient for that (at least for now) short term purpose...



1. Finland isn't a part of Scandinavia.
Damn this makes me wanna smack ya face. :smallbiggrin: *shakes hand*

[Comrade]

People that use Duolingo - how helpful have you found it? Because I get so and utterly frustrated with it. Aargh. Maybe it's just not the way for me to learn. Currently attempting Spanish due to a future trip to Spain, so maybe it's sufficient for that (at least for now) short term purpose...


It's handy for very basic learning, or when used in conjunction with other avenues of learning; I'd say one can safely depend on it for learning vocabulary and such, but grammar rules, nuances, complexities of languages-- Duolingo is not well suited to imparting those to a learner.

[lio45]

Lafayette is kind of a hub-city with most of the population (myself included) in the surrounding towns. It's in the small towns you find the French speakers. Lots of cafe's have designated meeting times for them, which is the easiest way for the curious to find a group. Usually they're very well attended. Dr. Barry Ancelet comes and goes, which is kind of surreal. There's a lot of interest from the younger sorts, so hopefully enough gets transferred from our grandparents to us. I REALLY should be getting in on this.

One fun thing is dialectical differences. My grandparents speak the French of my city, not the city across the bayou. I don't really understand the difference, but the way they talk about, say, people from New Iberia, reminds me of the Hobbits' trashing their Buckland cousins in the "Fellowship of the Ring."

Nice! :)

BTW, if you have any questions... anything standard, I will be glad to help. Even Acadian regionalisms (except those specific to the subgroup that ended up in Louisiana), I can probably help.

I will volunteer some of my free time anytime if it can help boost/revive/maintain French usage in Louisiana even by a hair...

Also, I have "find a little francophone cafe" on my to do list for my next time passing through the area now :)

[BWR]

Damn this makes me wanna smack ya face. :smallbiggrin: *shakes hand*

You're pity honorary members. Does that help?

[DracoknightZero]

People that use Duolingo - how helpful have you found it? Because I get so and utterly frustrated with it. Aargh. Maybe it's just not the way for me to learn. Currently attempting Spanish due to a future trip to Spain, so maybe it's sufficient for that (at least for now) short term purpose...



Damn this makes me wanna smack ya face. :smallbiggrin: *shakes hand*

Its easier to learn languages that is similar to your own in grammar, forexample the Norwegian/Swedish/Danish example where they are mostly using the same setup (Yes Both versions of Norwegian, the other one sound similar to swedish, and it was a common problem in class when teachers told us we wrote swedish than "new" norwegian)

And a Note, Finland is generally considered scandinavian by us "nordics" to say the least. Then again "Scandinavia" is more of a common name for the nordic countries rather than a "offical" group. At least for us living here, we couldnt care less... Finland is welcome, Iceland is welcome... hell even the scots wanted to join us and we let em in!

[BWR]

Its easier to learn languages that is similar to your own in grammar, forexample the Norwegian/Swedish/Danish example where they are mostly using the same setup (Yes Both versions of Norwegian, the other one sound similar to swedish, and it was a common problem in class when teachers told us we wrote swedish than "new" norwegian)

And a Note, Finland is generally considered scandinavian by us "nordics" to say the least. Then again "Scandinavia" is more of a common name for the nordic countries rather than a "offical" group. At least for us living here, we couldnt care less... Finland is welcome, Iceland is welcome... hell even the scots wanted to join us and we let em in!

I never felt that Nynorsk sounded like Swedish, and I can't recall anyone saying that. Maybe it's my memory, maybe it's just the people you know. I'm guessing it's more a case of 'I know this is supposed to be slightly different than what I normally speak, and I know Swedish better than Nynorsk, so that is what comes out'.
Scandinavia is Norway, Sweden and Denmark. It's a defined term, even if people use it incorrectly to include Finland and possibly others. Still, at the rate people are using it wrongly it will probably end up being right soon.
*mumble grumble grrrr*

[DracoknightZero]

I never felt that Nynorsk sounded like Swedish, and I can't recall anyone saying that. Maybe it's my memory, maybe it's just the people you know. I'm guessing it's more a case of 'I know this is supposed to be slightly different than what I normally speak, and I know Swedish better than Nynorsk, so that is what comes out'.
Scandinavia is Norway, Sweden and Denmark. It's a defined term, even if people use it incorrectly to include Finland and possibly others. Still, at the rate people are using it wrongly it will probably end up being right soon.
*mumble grumble grrrr*

Well the Nynorsk and Swedish thing is just what i experienced while i was in school and something our teachers constantly had to correct us on.
The major problem with this "new norwegian" is that it have a extreme bias toward the western and southern parts of norway. So its like trying to teach a country bumkin from eastern norway to speak like a south/western norwegian... And its quite opposed around where i am from as just "a waste of school time".

The only requirement for nynorsk is within offical sectors, as you are to reply in the same language as you get messages in...

[Misereor]

I was initially just going to post this thread to ask a question relating to a language (specifically, Danish), but I've seen other forums that had threads for general discussion of languages, and I noticed there isn't such a thread here. So here we go, a thread for folks to discuss languages they're learning, languages they already know, languages they're interested in, the like.

Now, as to the question that inspired me to get this thread going: I'm learning Danish and I'm finding that I struggle with conversations because of lack of people to chat with (other than my tutor). Does anybody here know of any means to meet conversation partners on the internet (via IMs, for example, not necessarily voice chatting) to practise one's conversational skills in a language?


I'm Danish and I'm on GiTP a couple of times a week.
I also have basic knowledge of the role of Old Danish/Norse in modern English, so if you have any questions, you can leave me a message, and I'll try to answer.

[T-Mick]

When it comes to the Scandinavian languages (exception of Finland) they are similar enough that you could understand eachother without much effort.
Though i personally have no idea what the danish say as their vocal version of the language is what i would call "garble" compared to their swedish counterparts.

I've always found this fascinating. Danish, Norwegian, and Swedish are described as a unit (not the same language though) in my "The World's Major Languages." Together, they're considered some of the fastest developing languages. Apparently, being surrounded by mutually intelligible languages produces rapid change in your language. Any truth to this, speakers?

Compare this, by the way, to Icelandic, which was once the same way, but has today hardly changed in a thousand years. Hardly.

Also, I read over the weekend that the loss of English's case system and synthetic grammar may have been due to Danish influence. On the borders of the Danelaw, many of the difficulties between English and Danish communication would have come down to different inflections, since the roots were so similar. Solution? Drop the roots, go analytical. There's probably more to it than that, but still.

[SaintRidley]

I've always found this fascinating. Danish, Norwegian, and Swedish are described as a unit (not the same language though) in my "The World's Major Languages." Together, they're considered some of the fastest developing languages. Apparently, being surrounded by mutually intelligible languages produces rapid change in your language. Any truth to this, speakers?

Compare this, by the way, to Icelandic, which was once the same way, but has today hardly changed in a thousand years. Hardly.

Also, I read over the weekend that the loss of English's case system and synthetic grammar may have been due to Danish influence. On the borders of the Danelaw, many of the difficulties between English and Danish communication would have come down to different inflections, since the roots were so similar. Solution? Drop the roots, go analytical. There's probably more to it than that, but still.

Trying to steer clear of politics on Icelandic, but the situation is interesting there. The language was very profoundly influenced by loanwords, but there was a fairly conservative movement to "save" the language, with sweeping reforms implemented to avoid the need for loanwords. There's a great 18th century poem about how loanwords are causing the Icelandic language to fall ill and die. The result is the language got changed by many decrees until it settled into more or less its current state, and 18th century texts are more difficult to parse than 12th century texts.

As for the Norse influence on English and the case system, it's still a hot debate as to how much Old Norse and Old English might have been mutually intelligible, if the Danes and the English saw each other as speaking the same or separate languages, and to what degree this might or might not have facilitated some of the collapse of the case system (which was itself fairly collapsed by the time the English were Christianized and writing became widespread with the language, well before the Danelaw). In short, who knows, but probably somewhat though not to an absolutely huge extent.

[BWR]

Mutual intelligibility is always good. You see the same in all languages. The more exposure you have to other accents and dialects, the less the extremes will develop and the more they will tend towards the same. Happens in English too.

As for OE, one has to realize that the dialects most of the surviving texts are in (West Saxon, primarily) were not the only ones and not necessarily the most important in developing into modern English. Some elements attributed to Danish influence can easily have come from OE dialects. Loss of inflection happened in Scandinavia too and this is not generally attributed to influence from related dialects.

[DracoknightZero]

I've always found this fascinating. Danish, Norwegian, and Swedish are described as a unit (not the same language though) in my "The World's Major Languages." Together, they're considered some of the fastest developing languages. Apparently, being surrounded by mutually intelligible languages produces rapid change in your language. Any truth to this, speakers?


Depends, you do delevop something called a "Unolect" which could be your personal take on language and the usage of it. Forexample you could take up words from the other languages such as Swedish or Danish and get stuck using it daily. In my case i have the tendency to use the swedish "Hej dä" as a way to say "farewell" after phone convorsations and the like.

Also in work there is also swedish and danish folks i have to work with, plus at home i live with a danish and a polish person... so for me "getting used to" languages is a must if i am to have communication going, but yet after all of this i still dont properly understand "full danish" vocally compared to the "less danish" folks, i guess its the same way with the "Fin-Swedish" aswell.

[tantric]

this is more in regards to general tools, rather than the ongoing talk...

when i was trying to relearn swahili, i couldn't find any way to really practice. i happened upon a nice little pdf, 'elisi katika nchi ya ajabu (https://archive.org/details/elisikatikanchiy00carrrich)' - ' alice in wonderland'. it was just the right level of difficultly, plus public domain. since then, i've had this fancy to create an 'Alice in WonderLang' site devoted to free versions of this texts in all languages.....would that be useful, or just weird?

[SirKazum]

this is more in regards to general tools, rather than the ongoing talk...

when i was trying to relearn swahili, i couldn't find any way to really practice. i happened upon a nice little pdf, 'elisi katika nchi ya ajabu (https://archive.org/details/elisikatikanchiy00carrrich)' - ' alice in wonderland'. it was just the right level of difficultly, plus public domain. since then, i've had this fancy to create an 'Alice in WonderLang' site devoted to free versions of this texts in all languages.....would that be useful, or just weird?

I think that would be awesome! Both reading familiar material in different languages and translating material to a different language are great ways to practice IMO. When I was studying Chinese I had an idea stuck in my head to translate traditional/old Brazilian songs to Chinese... never got to do it though, and now I'd have to catch up a lot on Chinese to do it :smalltongue: