Metamagic > 10th level vs AMF

[flappeercraft]

So IIRC all spells that are higher than 9th level due to improved spell capacity and metamagic are considered Epic spells right? So that would mean they could bypass the AMF if they are not suppressed by the CL check right?

[GilesTheCleric]

It depends on the setting and the year you're in. I don't think any settings other than FR have 10th level+ spells, rather only epic spells. In FR, 10th level spells are their own thing. I don't believe that casting a spell from a level 10th slot generally counts as an epic spell regardless of the setting, but I can't dig up RAW on that for you right now. Maybe ELH will say.

[Deophaun]

ELH doesn't say that 10th level spells are epic. It says that epic spells don't have a level, but they are treated as 10th level for effects that care about such things.

Besides, aside from Heighten, metamagic doesn't actually raise a spell's level, just the slot required to cast it. You'd need to use Heighten+Earth Spell to get something above 9 (because Heighten caps out at 9 normally), or Epic Heighten.

[flappeercraft]

Actually playing Greyhawk but there are spells of 10th level and higher. You can get the Improve spell capacity feat to be able to cast those.

[Uncle Pine]

In which book(s) can I find these 10th+ level spells? Except for ELH which only has epic spells.

[GilesTheCleric]

In which book(s) can I find these 10th+ level spells? Except for ELH which only has epic spells.

Netheril: Encylopedia Arcana, Fall of Myth Drannor, and Cormanthyr: Empire of Elves.

[Uncle Pine]

Netheril: Encylopedia Arcana, Fall of Myth Drannor, and Cormanthyr: Empire of Elves.

Welp, I thought you meant 3e/3.5e 10th level spells. I wasn't expecting AD&D books. At least now I know these exist.

[Douglas]

"Epic spells" and "10+ level spells" are completely different things that have nothing to do with each other. Epic spells get a caster level check to ignore AMF. 10+ level spells are suppressed by AMF automatically unless they specifically say otherwise.

[GilesTheCleric]

Welp, I thought you meant 3e/3.5e 10th level spells. I wasn't expecting AD&D books. At least now I know these exist.

Unupdated 2.0 is valid for 3.5, right? =P But seriously, there's a lot of really neat stuff in the older books. I think some of the 3e FR books mention 10th+ spells as well, but I don't think they're statted out anywhere. The fan-made/wotc-approved 3e Spelljammer stuff might have some, too.

[Zanos]

Real 10th+ level spells got in-lore banned by Mystra in faerun. There's no 3.5 source that has actual 10th level spells.

[Khedrac]

Actually playing Greyhawk but there are spells of 10th level and higher. You can get the Improve spell capacity feat to be able to cast those.
I read this and thought "I know Faerun had 10th level spells, but I never heard of any in Greyhawk".

And then:

Netheril: Encylopedia Arcana, Fall of Myth Drannor, and Cormanthyr: Empire of Elves.
Yes, these are definitely Faerun.

So, flappeercraft, please could you let the rest of us know which 10th level spells Oerth has/had, and if nay were ever printed (and yes, I do mean in any edition for this one).

Note: so far as I understand things, the "Power Magic" of the ancient Suel empire was not 10th-level spells but something else again (most famous power mage being Slerotin).

[Âmesang]

For simplicity's sake I would equate the "Power Magic" of the Suel Imperium with epic magic because… what else is there but vague, poorly defined, "left up to the referee" information?

Besides, Slerotin's passage is really just a super big version of excavate (itself an instantaneous version of passwall), and the Epic Level Handbook already has a "rain of fire" that could be used as a base for recreating the Rain of Colorless Fire that destroyed the Imperium.

Personally I've been meaning to stat out the Invoked Devastation based on the precipitate (complete) planar breach spells from the Planar Handbook and utilizing information from the Manual of the Planes; effectively an epic "precipitate planar rip" cast in junction with the Bringer of Doom and developed as an "on-the-fly" ritual spell—so it can be cast to "small" effect by a single caster with a static Spellcraft DC and increases in effect as more casters contribute without altering the DC.

(I believe increasing the range and area 36½ times equals a +219 DC, while sacrificing an epic spell slot and 20,000 XP equals a –219 DC… so effectively each such sacrifice would increase the range and area by a large amount without really altering the DC.)

I bring this up because a GREYHAWK® fan named Maldin made his own attempt at statting out the Twin Cataclysms (https://melkot.com/mysteries/twincat-mech.html)… but reduced the Invoked Devastation to effectively an area effect disintegrate, which I thought was boring. :smalltongue: If I get this off the ground I want to try and stick with the years of lore to create a massive planar rip to the Grey Waste of Hades, inflicting an early onset Gray Wasting and the Grays to rapidly age the land and its peoples, and (despite what Gygax preferred, sorry) call forth legions of hordlings to ravage what's left—without the Bringer of Doom used as a focus the spell would merely be a "precipitate planar rip."

The Path of History

The root cause of the animosity between the Suel Imperium and the Baklunish Empire is lost in time, but the end result of their final war haunts even the modern day. After decades of conflict, the Suloise Mages of Power called down the Invoked Devastation upon the Baklunish, resulting in an apocalypse so complete that its true form remains unknown. Entire cities and countless people were purged from Oerth, leaving few signs of the great civilization that thrived from the Sulhaut Mountains to the Dramidj Ocean.
https://www.schadenfreudestudios.com/backup/pictures/indent.gifIn retaliation, a cadre of Baklunish wizard-clerics, gathered in the great protective stone circles known as Tovag Baragu, brought the Rain of Colorless Fire upon their hated enemies. The skies above the Suel Imperium opened, and all beings and things beneath this shining rift in the heavens were burned into ash. So terribly did these attacks plague the world that they have come to be called the Twin Cataclysms, a term understood by nearly every resident of the Flanaess. The Dry Steppes and Sea of Dust are geographical reminders of this unbridled magical power, now lost to all people—perhaps for the better.

— LIVING GREYHAWK™ Gazetteer, p.13

Thus Spake Gary Gygax: Ye Secrets of Oerth Revealed

Q: The Rain of Colorless Fire's effects are detailed by you in the 1983 World of Greyhawk boxed set and earlier folio:

"…in return for the terrible magical attack [the Invoked Devastation], the Suloise lands were inundated by a nearly invisible fiery rain which killed all creatures it struck, burned all living things, ignited the landscape with colorless flame, and burned the very hills themselves into ash."
The Invoked Devastation, on the other hand, is a little more vague — are its effects a massive, instantaneous disintegration? Or is it a rapid erosion, crumbling the Baklunish Empire in a sudden sweep of time — an unmaking of things? Are there ruins left behind? Dead bodies? What are the effects on the landscape?

A: Here we have it, a very sound guess, all of which are correct, as I envisioned the effect. A wave of something sweeps over the land. Buildings begin to crumble as if being powdered by an oerthquake, only the ground is not shaking. All living things within the area are sickened. Although some survive, most others are less fortunate. The wind is black and howling, and under its strange force the work of the hands of man decays as if time were running a thousand times faster for such non-living matter. Living things suffer increased aging, but not so severely. Trees grow suddenly, deplete their soil, and die. Animals age and die. Children become adults, but, lacking the nutrients for growth, die. A handful of the young adult folk escape as near- and middle-aged wrecks. The remains of the dead are visible for some period, but the habitations are naught but powder and dirt. It is a desolate place that only time will restore. In a score of years, though, the whole is covered by weeds and struggling plants, and slowly, as the bacteria and worms and insects make their way into the soil, the land becomes a wilderness that can support normal life again.

— Oerth Journal #12, p.5

Room of Mercy

"Who are you? Where are you? What are you? Why are you? Who am I? Where am I? What am I? Why am I?" The whispers repeat the same words endlessly, sometimes in the same archaic dialect, other times in Ancient Suloise. In the center of a room, levitating in mid-air, apparently untouched by dust, is a three-inch-square black cube, apparently made from malachite.
https://www.schadenfreudestudios.com/backup/pictures/indent.gifThe cube is the prison for Zol Tanthul, a Power of Shadow (NE male shade fighter 1/sorcerer 6/eldritch knight 10/shadow adept 4). If greater dispel magic is successfully cast against the cube (DC 34), then the entity will be released. Zol was a shadow prince who also lived for a time as a noble of the Suel Imperium. He was trying to investigate a rumor about Xodast, a Suel Mage of Power who experimented with powers that most said were better left undisturbed. Xodast, it was said, had created the Bringer of Doom, an artifact that later played some part in the Invoked Devastation that destroyed the Baklunish (which would not occur for two centuries after Zol's imprisonment). Xodast imprisoned Zol in "The Darkness That Holds All Shadows" (the cube), which was found shortly after the Rain of Colorless Fire by a group of adventurers exploring the ruins of the Suel city Suendrako.

— Castle Greyhawk, p.97
(updated to fit in with 3rd Edition and to connect Zol with the Shades of Faerûn as a "missing" thirteenth son of High Prince Telamont Tanthul)

The Lost Laboratory

This cairn, the convergence of the two great lines of force on which the other cairns were built, was used to research powerful and terrible new spells. The magical focus was so strong in this place that not only were all spells cast here hard to resist, but magic charged the very minds of wizards who stayed here, allowing them to cast more spells than they were normally able. There were no locks on any of the doors—the servants were all charmed slaves and the wizards saw no need to set up any sort of security other than the capstone on the top level.
https://www.schadenfreudestudios.com/backup/pictures/indent.gifTwo of the most powerful wizards involved in this project were researching ways to recreate the Twin Cataclysms that destroyed the Suel and Bakluni empires; their hope was to find a more controlled way of decimating a large number of opponents. One, a woman named Alatla Minah, explored the invocation of pure elemental matter, thinking to emulate the Rain of Colorless Fire. The other, a man known as The Longsword for his unusual ability to fight with that weapon, studied the means to open a gate to the lower planes and unleash a fiendish horde, inspired by a similar event which occurred during the Invoked Devastation due to the mysterious Bringer of Doom. A third wizard, a quiet man called Titianus Cremul, worked on spells to hide and move entire armies. During a critical point in their research, the first two wizards tested their findings simultaneously, creating an overlapping effect that interacted with the coincidental crash of the meteor in the Abbor-Alz; the cairn and all of its inhabitants were pulled into a juncture between the Astral, Ethereal, and Material planes. The demon-summoning spell partly succeeded, trapping a glabrezu demon (or tanar'ri) within the cairn. The other inhabitants of the cairn have either been killed or changed due to their exposure to the other planes. The magical lights continue to function here, providing illumination for all of its strange residents. As the cairn is no longer above the Oerthly ley-line, the magical enhancement that made this place so valuable is no longer in effect; the two lines have altered a bit over time and no longer complement each other, making the actual site on Oerth nothing special.

— The Star Cairns, p.38

The Bringer of Doom

So distant in the past is the Age of Doom that it cannot even be conceived of by mortals. This was a time of great lamenting, for the beings of that age had discovered magic and sciences too powerful to handle. Their passions overcame their sense and, in a wave of power, the race destroyed itself, leaving behind no remnant, save one.
https://www.schadenfreudestudios.com/backup/pictures/indent.gifThe Bringer of Doom is a small box with a strange, circular red gem set in its lid. If the gem is touched and depressed, the box itself explodes in a blinding flash. So great is the force of the blast that everything within 100' (including the user and the item itself) is destroyed utterly.
https://www.schadenfreudestudios.com/backup/pictures/indent.gifThe explosion opens a temporary one-way rift to the Gray Waste of Hades from which 100d10 hordlings pour forth and destroy everything they encounter. Rarely (10% chance) some other, greater fiend comes through the rift as well. The Bringer of Doom always reforms, to be discovered some time later.
https://www.schadenfreudestudios.com/backup/pictures/indent.gifOne account of the Bringer comes from a scrap of parchment found in the Desert of Yin, near the blasted tower of the evil mage Althabazzerid:
https://www.schadenfreudestudios.com/backup/pictures/indent.gif"We have set up magical circles of protection, but we don't know how long we can keep them up. I hope that my observations may be of help to my fellow researchers of the Mages' Guild of MakBran. The assault against the black tower went well, the elven archers easily destroying Althabazzerid's undead army while we dealt with his dragon allies. We had closed in and were in the midst of magical combat when Althabazzerid himself appeared on the tower's battlements, protected by a multicolored sphere of light. He raised a small box in his left hand, and perhaps pressed a button on it—hard to tell from our vantage point."
https://www.schadenfreudestudios.com/backup/pictures/indent.gif"At once there was a deafening blast, and the wizard and his tower were destroyed. A huge hole in space opened, and we could see into the dismal spaces of the Gray Wastes. A great crowd of horrid beings—a more fantastic mix of humans, beasts, and fiends cannot be imagined—began moving into our world. Some walked, some hopped, some dragged their deformed bodies along. They gibbered and screamed. Some spat fire, or gas, or acid. Some were horned, others bore tentacles. More and more came, destroying the elves by sheer press of numbers. They attacked without plan or strategy, yet their horrid deformations allowed them many advantages."
https://www.schadenfreudestudios.com/backup/pictures/indent.gif"Then a great fiend flew out from the darkened sky of the Gray Wastes. It has assaulted unceasingly since then. Soon our magics will fail, and we will die either at the hands of the fiend or the press of the horde of darkness…"

— PLANESCAPE™ Monstrous Compendium Appendix, p.55

[flappeercraft]

I read this and thought "I know Faerun had 10th level spells, but I never heard of any in Greyhawk".

And then:

Yes, these are definitely Faerun.

So, flappeercraft, please could you let the rest of us know which 10th level spells Oerth has/had, and if nay were ever printed (and yes, I do mean in any edition for this one).

Note: so far as I understand things, the "Power Magic" of the ancient Suel empire was not 10th-level spells but something else again (most famous power mage being Slerotin).

What I mean with that there are 10th level spells is not necesarily that there are printed 10th level spells but that you can get the epic feat Improved Spell capacity to gain 10th level slots from which you can cast metamagicked spells of lower level or get epic heighten and heighten it to that which means that there are in fact 10th level spells but are metamagicked versions of lower levels.

[Mordaedil]

The weakness with metamagic is that even though you can apply it to spells to raise the slot they are cast from, they still count as their original level, so casting an empowered, maximized horrid wilting is still considered an 8th level spell, in setting. You just use a vast amount of personal power to draw out a little bit extra from the spell.

[Necroticplague]

The weakness with metamagic is that even though you can apply it to spells to raise the slot they are cast from, they still count as their original level, so casting an empowered, maximized horrid wilting is still considered an 8th level spell, in setting. You just use a vast amount of personal power to draw out a little bit extra from the spell.

Sanctum can raise a spell to 10th level, and heighten can get something to 9, those two being one of the few that actually modify the level.

[Mordaedil]

Sanctum can raise a spell to 10th level, and heighten can get something to 9, those two being one of the few that actually modify the level.

I am not familiar with Sanctum's functions thereof, but Heighten is one of those exceptions (albeit imo, it is really weak for what it does and won't see too much use with exception of very specific scenarios)