Question for the Forums: Teleporting and Surprise

[Demidos]

Hey All,

This came up recently in a game, and I was curious what the playground thought about this scenario.

We're attacking a castle, and we have a macguffin that damages enemies in a large radius. We set up the macguffin in a forest grove (to provide cover) outside the castle as a way to wipe out the enemies' mooks, and prepare ourselves for the inevitable counterattack. The enemy villain teleports in to our location within 18 seconds, along with a band of mooks. They then get a surprise round, and then we roll init.

The DM said they should get a surprise round, since they're teleporting in and as such we were somehow unprepared, despite the fact that we knew that any response should come in from within 30 seconds or the entire enemy force would be severely debilitated. I argue that since we knew they were coming within the minute and they (doubtless) knew that we would be there defending the macguffin, neither side should get surprise.

What do you guys think?

[InvisibleBison]

How did they know where to teleport to?

If they've identified the location of the macguffin and simply teleported into its vicinity, they shouldn't get a surprise round, because they don't know where exactly you and your comrades are. They'll need to take a second or two to locate you, which is enough time for you to react to their teleportation, denying them a surprise round.

If they've scried on the location of the macguffin, however, they would know where you are and be ready to attack you the moment they arrive. Thus, they should get a surprise round in this circumstance.

[Demidos]

The MacGuffin is a giant tree, so it was visible above the tops of the other trees -- the party itself should not have been visible.

That being said, how she happened to notice that, gather her troops, buff against us, and teleport in 18 seconds is beyond me, but I'm assuming our DM had something.

[Silva Stormrage]

The MacGuffin is a giant tree, so it was visible above the tops of the other trees -- the party itself should not have been visible.

That being said, how she happened to notice that, gather her troops, buff against us, and teleport in 18 seconds is beyond me, but I'm assuming our DM had something.

DM here

Most of her buffs were actually already up. I gave her 1 buff round 1 round to gather allies then she teleported out of the castle.

As for the surprise round, I was mostly just speeding up combat as the encounter was a large enough mess in the first place (~20 customzied npc's I had to keep track of on the PC's side as they were rounding up allies before this) and she had a way of knowing their exact location with a bit more prep time (Teleport far away from the castle, use clairvoyance on the tree and learning their exact location then teleport in). Rules wise I mostly just fluffed it as her figuring out who was attacking and where they were with her 32+ int score.

So essentially she was aware of their position (Giant tree suddenly popping up thats radiating holy damage) and the PC's were not aware of where she would appear. That led me to give her a surprise round.

[J-H]

I would argue that:
a) They used their standard action for the round by participating in the teleportation (assuming that this is Teleport and not Dimension Door).
b) Teleportation is disorienting and that you should get a surprise round while they orient themselves to suddenly being elsewhere. At most, only the caster who scried & teleported should get a surprise round (along with the party) while the caster's minions are flat-footed.

[Deophaun]

Teleport far away from the castle, use clairvoyance on the tree and learning their exact location then teleport in
Clairvoyance has a casting time of 10 minutes. That's not really a "bit more prep time."

[Fizban]

This is most easily covered by: both sides are aware at the same time, example (both aware but cannot act immediately), which is just initiative for both sides as soon as they can interact with each other. Casting teleport is equivalent to opening the door: note that in the example the fighter opens the door outside of initiative, then it is rolled for everyone.

Breaking it down more specifically: When you teleport in, the people at your destination suddenly become aware of you. When you teleport to somewhere you can't see, you suddenly become aware of everything at that location. Both parties are suddenly aware, initiative is rolled, no surprise rounds, everyone is flat-footed until they act.

What happens when you teleport to somewhere you can see? It takes an action to teleport, so you can't cast it before rolling initiative. You get a surprise round, roll initiative, and use the standard action to cast teleport landing with your first turn completed so you're not flat-footed. Those at the destination then roll their initiative in as normal, possibly acting before you even though you're not flat-footed.
-People you're bringing with you cannot delay their turns in the surprise round until after the teleport since they must roll initiative when they arrive, unless they can also see where you're teleporting in which case they can and that's gonna suck about as hard as actually walking into an ambush. But if the teleporter rolls low initiative then the passengers will have to delay to match, meaning the defenders have a higher chance of going first after the surprise round is finished.

Unless the defenders have Anticipate Teleportation up (and your landing zone was in the area), in which case the defenders get a warning and three rounds of actions. Then the teleporter and passengers arrive, suddenly becoming aware of the situation, as even if they'd been scrying that was three rounds ago. The defenders are unable to actually sense the teleporters until they arrive and thus also become suddenly aware of their foe. Both sides are suddenly aware, roll initiative as normal.

Note that in no situation does the caster manage to get direct advantage other than avoiding flat-footedness: only the edge case where a group teleport is carrying passengers who can also see the target will allow the passengers, and only them, to get a surprise round, and it's all fouled by landing in Anticipate Teleportation.

For the situation at hand: it sounds like the DM teleported while viewing the party. They should have burned their surprise round on the teleport and then arrived non-flat-footed but still effectively rolling initiative against the party.


See DMG p22, Starting an Encounter for details. Figuring out awareness can be difficult but going first is huge and surprise rounds are huger so it's important to take things step by step every time if necessary (I re-figured Anticipate Teleport twice already, it's hard to remember that when someone's in the buffer no one on either side is sensing any foes). The only part I disagree with is having aware newcomers act in order of dex, since it ignores their initiative abilities, so I'd have aware newcomers roll off.

The aware-newcomers section is what seems to trip people up the most. The thing to remember is that you can't be an aware newcomer (and thus automatically go first in the round) if there isn't already a battle going. You also can't ready actions outside of combat or roll initiative without becoming aware of a foe, and just because you expect an attack soon doesn't mean you're directly aware of anyone.


Tangent: Trying to game the system by rolling initiative against the floor or something so you can "ready" an action could be effective, if allowed: it means your aware foe automatically goes first (initiative= yours+1), but unless they trigger your action (which will require you to sense them triggering it, even though you obviously can't sense them right now or you'd have had to roll against them already, and you're basically restricted to the trigger "if I sense. . . "), you don't get to do anything until your turn in initiative. If you sense them your readied action goes off and your turn is set to right before the triggering unit, somewhere at the top of initiative, then they go and then next turn- effectively what you've done is trade a move action to win initiative at the risk of losing it if your action isn't triggered.

This gets really, really messy if it involves more than two people and practically guarantees that someone's going to be getting free actions, which is why it's not actually allowed. Actions readied outside of combat based on sensing an approaching foe are basically just trying to replace rolling initiative with declaring your first actions and determining who goes first based on who guessed better and/or won stealth/sense checks- and the DM has to pretend they don't know what you just said. It's all very dumb.

[emeraldstreak]

I would argue that:
a) They used their standard action for the round by participating in the teleportation (assuming that this is Teleport and not Dimension Door).

Uhh, no. Standard actions aren't some global tick that ticks simultaneously for everyone. You go along with your day and if a combat situation comes up you roll initiative/go into surprise round.

[Inevitability]

Clairvoyance has a casting time of 10 minutes. That's not really a "bit more prep time."

Perhaps Silva meant Clairvoyant Sense?

[Uncle Pine]

Perhaps Silva meant Clairvoyant Sense?

Alternatively, some baddy took Uncanny Forethought as one of his feats.

[SirNibbles]

At the start of the round:
-Are you aware of the enemy?
-Is the enemy aware of you?

If yes to one but not both, there is a surprise round.
If neither, then there can't be combat since nobody is aware of the enemy.
If both, then there's no surprise round.

If they teleport in and you notice them (Spot vs Hide and Listen vs Move Silently if applicable), they don't get a surprise round.

This is really basic stuff that the DM should know.
http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Initiative

[Silva Stormrage]

Alternatively, some baddy took Uncanny Forethought as one of his feats.

Winner :smalltongue:

And also the person casting teleport DID use up their standard action for actually casting the teleport. The rest of the people teleported did not however.

To Sir Nibbles: That seems unrealistic to a fault. By that logic if you are simply walking down a street in a marketplace and someone scrying on you teleports to you to attack you would instantly react and get no surprise round as they teleported above you. People don't have that kind of reaction speed even in D&D.

Also a moot point as I had already given the players a surprise round in similar instances multiple times. (Them teleporting in to attack an enemy who didn't know they were coming).

[Telok]

I've always thought that readied actions work well for this. When people are teleporting in they have readied actions to attack or cast, and if someone is prepared for a teleport attack they have readied actions to do the same. If one side or the other doesn't have readied actions, well, that's the surprise round. If both sides have readied actions then nobody is surprised, initiative is rolled, and the round proceeds as normal (yes the readied actions trigger if appropriate).

[Diarmuid]

Telok, the problem with that line of logic is that before being teleported you are not actually "in combat" so you cannot take the Ready action.

[SirNibbles]

Winner :smalltongue:

And also the person casting teleport DID use up their standard action for actually casting the teleport. The rest of the people teleported did not however.

To Sir Nibbles: That seems unrealistic to a fault. By that logic if you are simply walking down a street in a marketplace and someone scrying on you teleports to you to attack you would instantly react and get no surprise round as they teleported above you. People don't have that kind of reaction speed even in D&D.

Also a moot point as I had already given the players a surprise round in similar instances multiple times. (Them teleporting in to attack an enemy who didn't know they were coming).

Clairaudience/clairvoyance creates an invisible magical sensor at a specific location that enables you to hear or see (your choice) almost as if you were there. Emphasis Mine.

The enemies don't have ungodly reaction times either. They know nothing about the locations of the PCs until the teleport is complete.

If you've been allowing surprise rounds when the PCs do the same thing I guess it doesn't matter.

[Crake]

Alternatively, some baddy took Uncanny Forethought as one of his feats.

God, that's so dirty.

[emeraldstreak]

I've always thought that readied actions work well for this. When people are teleporting in they have readied actions to attack or cast, and if someone is prepared for a teleport attack they have readied actions to do the same. If one side or the other doesn't have readied actions, well, that's the surprise round. If both sides have readied actions then nobody is surprised, initiative is rolled, and the round proceeds as normal (yes the readied actions trigger if appropriate).


Telok, the problem with that line of logic is that before being teleported you are not actually "in combat" so you cannot take the Ready action.

Indeed. Impossible to Ready outside initiative (unless Bloodhound).

[WbtE]

As a player, I wouldn't object to this interpretation. It just means that the PCs will be seizing surprise rounds when they jump in with teleports later on in the campaign.

[Telok]

Telok, the problem with that line of logic is that before being teleported you are not actually "in combat" so you cannot take the Ready action.

Which is a level of asinine rules lawyering that I happily ignore. Plus there's also the argument that any scry-and-die is a combat where the combatants are in different rooms at the start of the encounter. The point at which you are less than 6 seconds from dropping a save-or-die or making a full attack on someone is generally the time that you roll initiative.

[PacMan2247]

Winner :smalltongue:

And also the person casting teleport DID use up their standard action for actually casting the teleport. The rest of the people teleported did not however.

To Sir Nibbles: That seems unrealistic to a fault. By that logic if you are simply walking down a street in a marketplace and someone scrying on you teleports to you to attack you would instantly react and get no surprise round as they teleported above you. People don't have that kind of reaction speed even in D&D.

Also a moot point as I had already given the players a surprise round in similar instances multiple times. (Them teleporting in to attack an enemy who didn't know they were coming).

There's a difference between an enemy who doesn't know you're coming, and one beginning an attack on your stronghold and expecting resistance. The situation as given wasn't an ambush on unsuspecting enemies, it was tactical movement to meet an enemy that was expecting you- maybe not in a particular location, but certainly in a general sense. Besiegers specifically guarding something key to their assault on a stronghold would have a level of vigilance to meet enemies teleporting in who, at best, would know where their enemies were a few seconds before they teleported. Reorienting for the situation should have taken a similar amount of time for both sides.