Help me rate this enemies challenge rating

[boristheboar]

hello my dm is preparing to have us fight a extremely op death knight with 20 levels of barbarian and i was wondering what the CR of this thing would be. first the barbarian in question is actually my old PC from a previous campaign when we had rolled stats, anyway he told me to build its physical stats (str,dex,con) how i would normally do it, but for the mental stats (int,wis,cha) to use what death knights have in the MM. the stats are as follows
STR. 24
DEX. 20
CON. 24
INT. 12
WIS. 16
CHA. 18
hp 420
race Half-Orc
totem bear, bear, wolf
feats sentinel and tough
AC 26
weapons greataxe +5 and 8 javelins +1
greataxe damage 1d12+12+4(rage)slashing +3d8necrotic
full death knight spell casting
only limiter on the spell casting is rage disables it.

[Feuerphoenix]

Is he raging with full rage resistance? Is he having any other barbarian feature?

[boristheboar]

Yes, full rage, all barbarian totem abilities bear, bear, wolf

[Erys]

How is your AC 26?

[boristheboar]

DM fiat, having 24 str. And being undead, he likes anime and since zombies in some anime can use more of their strength, he says that it counts plate as light and wields the greataxe one handed so he gave it a shield plus 1. Plate, dextery, shield plus one =18+5+3=26... He has no concept of fair fight

[TheTeaMustFlow]

hello my dm is preparing to have us fight a extremely op death knight with 20 levels of barbarian and i was wondering what the CR of this thing would be. first the barbarian in question is actually my old PC from a previous campaign when we had rolled stats, anyway he told me to build its physical stats (str,dex,con) how i would normally do it, but for the mental stats (int,wis,cha) to use what death knights have in the MM. the stats are as follows
STR. 24
DEX. 20
CON. 24
INT. 12
WIS. 16
CHA. 18
hp 420
race Half-Orc
totem bear, bear, wolf
feats sentinel and tough
AC 26
weapons greataxe +5 and 8 javelins +1
greataxe damage 1d12+12+4(rage)slashing +3d8necrotic
full death knight spell casting
only limiter on the spell casting is rage disables it.

Hmm, how many times can it attack - twice (like a Barbarian) or three times (like a Death Knight)?

In defensive terms, it's theoretically well over 20, possibly even approaching 30, but offensively it falls rather short of that - probably around 16 if it gets 2 attacks a round, 20ish if 3.

Based on what you've said, it has neither legendary actions nor legendary resistances - would that assumption be correct?

Overall, your best option here if at all possible is to fight from range - preferably, from the air. It's mobility is fairly good (40 foot movement speed, bonus action dash when raging, ability to fly for one round when raging) so staying entirely out of range is probably impossible, but in a reasonably open area you should be able to at least do some damage limitation by keeping your distance, though in confined spaces that's likely impossible. If you can keep it at range, however, it should be fairly managable - it has one good hit courtesy of Hellfire Orb, but after that it's down to Javelins and Destructive Wave, which are rather less formidable.

By my reckoning its saves come out as Str +13, Dex +11, Con +13, Int +1, Wis +9, Cha +10, along with Magic resistance and various immunities. Obviously, this renders most save-targeting unreliable but, depending on your level, Wis save attacks might not be completely out of the question. The obvious chink in its armour is Int, so pack Phantasmal Force and Feeblemind if you can - in particular, Feeblemind will crash its Cha save to a mere +1, rendering it vulnerable to one of the many nasty Charisma save attacks like Dispel Evil and Good (Dismissal Function) or Plane Shift. Forcecage should also render this fairly easy, since it lacks any teleportation abilities and its ranged attacks are fairly mediocre (it's only possible countermeasure is dispel magic, but it has rather poor odds on that, and Feeblemind or Counterspell can take even that away from it)

What level will your party be facing him at, and what precisely are your classes? Because depending on whether you've got the right options available this could be a complete cakewalk or a total massacre.

[boristheboar]

We are level 13. I'm a barbarian, we also have a arcane trickster, a hunter, and (if he isn't still sick) a paladin.
The death knight attacks 3 times in an action. And we will be fighting it in a city being invaded by the demon lich's army of goblinoids, undead, and demons, so we can be assured it will have backup. Also the sentinel feat means we can't retreat once this thing is in melee range. The totems it has are
Bear- resistance vs. All damage except psychic.
Bear-count as 1 size larger for carry cap.
Wolf-after a successful attack bonus action to knock prone

[Feuerphoenix]

What paladin is in your group? To be honest I see no way of actually winning this fight without having some fancy equipment. My only thought was, to cast hold person and make sure he loses his resistances. But otherwise so see no way of dealing 800 damage to a single enemy without the rest of the group hits the dust. You will probably not face him in a situation, where you can avoid melee entirely.

But any attack against his mental stats look like the right way. As a DM, i would either troll my group with that encounter, or give them a tool before to kill it.

[Feuerphoenix]

PS: seriously: Greataxe+5 ?!?

[pwykersotz]

I'd estimate you're looking at about a CR 24.

I set equivalent HP to 575. My justification is that in addition to the 420hp, the DM is designing this encounter with meaningful resistances to damage against a level 13 party. By the effective HP chart for resistance against an expected challenge rating for that level party, the multiplier is 1.25. Yes, this is a liberal interpretation of the chart considering the monster is definitely intended to be a higher CR, but I feel it keeps the spirit of things. That raises effective HP to 525. Then I added another 50 because of the Barbarian Relentless Rage ability, since this is likely to be relevant and keep him up for a bit longer.

AC is 26 straight up, no trouble here.

Defensive CR is therefore 27.

I assume to-hit is +13, based on the Strength score and assuming a +6 Proficiency.

I also will assume three attacks like the Death Knight makes, which puts damage per-round at 135.

Death Knight casting is pretty irrelevant for any of these calculations, so that's ignored. If there are spell substitutions, that might change.

Given these factors, Offensive CR is 21.

There are lots of cool Barbarian abilities, but none of these would really impact the first three rounds of combat with relation to CR. Advantage on initiative, instant and persistent rage, advantage on Dex saves, these are nice but not really too special.

So overall, 21 + 27 / 2: Final CR is 24

If spells are swapped to meaningfully affect damage or AC, then this might change.
If he gets only two attacks instead of three, then the final CR is instead 21 since offensive CR would drop to 16.

Edit: I forgot to account for +5 to hit from the magic axe too, which would raise the to-hit up to 18. This would increase offensive CR to 24, which would increase the final CR to 25.5 instead.

[boristheboar]

yeah... the greataxe +5 was the dm's doing same with the plate and shield +1, this used to be an old pc in a previous campaign. the terrain we will probably be fighting this thing is in the heavily sieged castle, and if my suspicion is correct we can expect some sort of necromancer to heal it, and (1-2) balors... he just loves throwing balors at us, and aboleths, but i doubt he'll put any aboleths in this fight, also there are two more death knights with character levels somewhere in the city they are a rogue and ranger that fight in tandem.

[Feuerphoenix]

Mmh from pure game mechanics, thjis whole encounter is way above 30 if your assumptions are right. This fight is about to unwinable without some legendary stuff

[boristheboar]

yeah, i figured it would likely be a wash, this is pretty much the second to last boss he has in this campaign, the lich it self is only a slightly boosted lich. best weapons we have are +1 quality, with the exception of the hunter who has a revolver based on the colt(2d20) from supernatural, again our dm loves tossing in stuff from tv and animes at random, he gave me a magical top hat of holding... i currently have a halberd, 4 javelins, a +1 trident(neptune's trident) that deals 1 lightning damage to all adjacent to the target(including me), a hand axe of returning, a blunderbuss with a hand axe attached, and +1 tessiga(greatsword as a 1d12) and 3 dead bodies inside the hat, oh and roughly 200 pounds of dirt(i got buried alive). we have encountered the griffins(family guy) alice(wonderland) and zoidberg(futurama)... sometimes i wonder if he knows how insane and convoluted his campaign has become over the last year

[Deleted]

I just hope the fight isn't just the Death Knight standing there, moving, making an attack, waiting to be hit, moving, attacking, etc...

For something that fluffy, it needs a dynamic fight to go along with it.

[boristheboar]

last time we encountered it was in a mine that we had to clear out so the miners could get some mithril ore to make weapons to help the city's defenders in this fight, unfortunately this was there to insure that we couldn't secure the whole mine from the undead horde, as we came to a crossroads deep within the mine complex, we heard a bloodcurdling roar as a pack of 3 undead trolls lumbered towards us. after we finished the fight we had to choose to go left or right, after a short deliberation we decided to head down the right tunnel( the trolls came from this way) as we walked down the tunnel we could hear a constant scraping sound that seemed to be coming from in front of us, soon we began to see a narrow line in the hard stony floor of the mine's tunnel. by this point our wizard was bloody, and our druid was running out of wild-shape uses, the paladin only had a few spell slots remaining, the hunter was running low on ammo, and i was down to about 2/3 health, the arcane trickster was mia that weekend so we didn't have his massive passive perception to notice that the line turned left ahead of us, as we reached this 4-way intersection we got blindsided by the death knight missing some of the flesh on the left side of its face as well as its left eye and jaw, it slaughtered the druid in the surprise round and got to go first. after the surprise round it grabbed the wizard by the neck and slammed him into one of the support beams holding the ceiling up above us, it turned away from us as the ceiling started to fall on top of us, covering our party in a ton of debris, i was the one who took the brunt of the cave-in since i was the largest and most powerful(i was still in rage) i had the hunter use my tophat to dig a tunnel behind us to get back out. apparently i gained a new nickname because of this "big bad john" as in the jimmy dean song.

[Feuerphoenix]

A revolver that deals 2D20 per hit? XDDD

[boristheboar]

its a limited use weapon 7 shots in the entire campaign, after that it becomes a paperweight of 0 value, he already used 3 of the shots.
+11 to hit, 2d20+6 radiant damage

[xroads]

Yeah, I agree with some of the other posters. The CR is probably well past 20.

The character starts at level 20. He then has several stats that break past the bounded accuracy built into the game. For example, I think +3 is supposed to be the highest level weapon plus, reserved for artifacts.

At this point, he's more a force of nature. I hope the DM provides some sort of MacGuffin or other cinematic tool to help you guys win.

[RumoCrytuf]

DM fiat, having 24 str. And being undead, he likes anime and since zombies in some anime can use more of their strength, he says that it counts plate as light and wields the greataxe one handed so he gave it a shield plus 1. Plate, dextery, shield plus one =18+5+3=26... He has no concept of fair fight

There's a reason we have magic missile you know. Yeah, hitting this bastard would be a pain, so let's opt for magic. at 16 WIS he's going to be tough against a lot of spells., but that's why we use for sure to hit spells, like call lightning or fireball. Even at half damage on successful save, it's better than none. Horrid Wilting can do a lot of damage if the Barb fails.

[Deleted]

Yeah, I agree with some of the other posters. The CR is probably well past 20.

The character starts at level 20. He then has several stats that break past the bounded accuracy built into the game. For example, I think +3 is supposed to be the highest level weapon plus, reserved for artifacts.

At this point, he's more a force of nature. I recommend toning him down if you want your party to have a chance of defeating him. Either that, or hope the DM provides some sort of MacGuffin or other cinematic tool to help you guys win.

Somewhat sounds like the DM wants to win...

Put up no resistance to being attacked and roleplay your way through each fight with this thing. Have each player figure out their own reason for not wanting to fight. Anything from "I decided to not fight for 40 days and 40 nights" to "Nope, I don't get paid enough for this crap".

If the DM slaughters you, well, that would probably happen anyways but with this you put the DM on the spot and make him react to you.

[boristheboar]

I think +3 is supposed to be the highest level weapon plus, reserved for artifacts.

well, it started as a +3 weapon, but it got upgraded with the mithril from the mine, and again later when it killed the avatar of a god(it was one the dm made up on the spot, based more or less on meridia from the elder scrolls series) we were communing with for help against the lich. turns out a greataxe forged from the bones of an ancient black dragon, corrupted by demonic energies, strengthened with refined mithril, and with an avatar's body converted into a crystalline core embedded in the handle, turns a +3 weapon into a +5 weapon that mortals can't even wield without being corrupted into an evil monstrosity ala warcraft frostmorne style

[boristheboar]

There's a reason we have magic missile you know. Yeah, hitting this bastard would be a pain, so let's opt for magic. at 16 WIS he's going to be tough against a lot of spells., but that's why we use for sure to hit spells, like call lightning or fireball. Even at half damage on successful save, it's better than none. Horrid Wilting can do a lot of damage if the Barb fails.

well, unfortunately the only spell casters we have are a hunter, arcane trickster, and a paladin.
also the death knight has damage resistance to all except psychic, so even if it fails its save it will still take half so long as it isn't psychic, quarter on success, to make matters worse DKs have advantage on saves vs. spells and magic effects.

[Feuerphoenix]

Well then let's face it: you have no real chance of winning this fight. He is breaking about any rule in the game to make a Charakter that is beyond of beeing defeatable. Even as lv 20 chars, you would have a hard time. You would need either the highest spells of a paladin to banish him (little chance) or a mage to make is own ticks....

Your DM wants to play an encounter, where he will win, no matter what. Except there is a BFG9000 he will give to you shortly before the fight

[boristheboar]

Your DM wants to play an encounter, where he will win, no matter what. Except there is a BFG9000 he will give to you shortly before the fight

I hope you are right about the bfg9000, otherwise we are royally screwed. If we don't have a way out, I will probably try the 'take them down with me' method of killing. If it comes to that I will tackle them off the castle's buttresses and hope that the DM rolls high enough on fall damage to kill us both, but lets face it, that isn't likely since it has 420 health and damage resistance.

[Seclora]

I hope you are right about the bfg9000, otherwise we are royally screwed. If we don't have a way out, I will probably try the 'take them down with me' method of killing. If it comes to that I will tackle them off the castle's buttresses and hope that the DM rolls high enough on fall damage to kill us both, but lets face it, that isn't likely since it has 420 health and damage resistance.

I'd do it anyways, it might buy the rest of the party time to beat the lich while this badass has to 30ft movement speed all the way back around the castle. He's a death knight, he isn't going to stay dead unless your DM lets him anyways, so shenanigans your way out of dealing with him. Collapse a wall, drop a moon on him, make a deal with Asmodeus to send a Diabolic hit squad to intervene against the local Demonic intrusion [actually, that's probably Zariel and the Dark Nine's field. Almost certainly safer to request Angelic support, but you get the gist]. You will not out combat this NPC, so don't treat it like a fight. Treat him like an obstacle between you and the boss.

Seriously though, Fiendish pact is always an option. Just saying.

This post was sponsored by devils, but you can't prove it and I will deny it in court.

[boristheboar]

Worst part about this is that the arcane trickster and the DM are telling me not to worry about it, the last time that happened I became hill giant bait, we had to get into the old gnomes workshop a few miles away some giants had made into their camp and we didn't really have much going for us so the arcane trickster talked me into disguising myself and trying to lure them away, next thing I know I go from being Conan to being Conan dressed as princess peach. Worst part is I actually succeeded AND leveled up too... I was slowed down by the high heels...

[Decstarr]

I agree with you guys being royally screwed. He'd be high up in the 20s CR for sure, which shouldn't be beatable for a party of your level. How come you know all these statistics btw? I mean, he's your old character, so I get that you know about his basic ability scores, but the rest? Does your DM willingly share his creature details with you? Also, seems like he has his own concept of "how it's supposed to go" which imho isn't the best trait for a DM I'd say.

Good luck beating/dodging the ****er. Guess the only way I see you guys actually having a shot is by "somehow" managing to actually get a surprise on the bugger. If you hit him with all you got before he manages to rage, you might actually have a shot I'd say. But from what you said about your DM, I'd say it's highly unlikely that he'll give you a shot at surprising his BBEG. Or, well, forgot about Feral Instinct, guess you ARE screwed after all :P

[boristheboar]

Well, about my inside knowledge, he handed me his monster manual and said "make me a death knight with 20 levels in barb the way you would do it for your old PC, just use the dk's mental stats and focus on the physical stuff, oh and it needs plate mail and a shield, and what was that one weapon you used that used the d12? A greataxe? OK yeah that'll work" I swear having me do this was his smartest move in the entire campaign as well as my worst move, but he had me in a corner, i mean, my first PC... Turned from being a force of power gaming into the avatar of our demise... It's so beautiful and horrible at the same time.

[TheTeaMustFlow]

Here's a thing - do any of the characters have access to greater invisibility? Because as far as I can see, the thing doesn't have perception abilities worth a damn, so stealth might be your best option here.

[boristheboar]

the arcane trickster has invisibility, but i don't know if it will be really useful in this fight since their are some high cr demons in the area. we will be fighting this thing on the castle ramparts while demons are flying around killing the castle guards up top, goblinoids and undead are entering through the ground floor.
some background info: we are currently defending neverwinter in this homebrew campaign against the demon lich's horde, most of the people died long ago during the first attempt the lich made 200 years ago, all the farms south of neverwinter are now corrupted and phandalin is destroyed, strangely enough thundertree actually had a few people hiding in it. before the siege of neverwinter began the dm had me place the enemy's numbers aswell as our defender numbers

we had: 300 human guards- 150 fighters, 100 rangers, 50 wizards
56 gnomes- engineers manning our catapults and ballistae
12 ballista, 3 catapults
175 dwarves on their way as reinforcements
125 elves using the dwarves as a meat shield

the demon lich had: 3000- 1600 goblinoids, 1000 demons, and 400 undead
also a large armored ship with 800(500g,300u) more units that rammed through the portcullis forcing us to retreat from the eastern part of the city.

we have lost everything south of the river, all three bridges burned as we retreated, the only areas we have left is half of the black lake district and the castle itself.