Unseen Pit Traps - Reflex of No?

[Scorponok]

This has been bothering me whenever it gets brought up, and I've heard players argue both ways about it.

Say there is a pit trap (for the sake of illustration, it goes 20 ft, straight down. This trap is illusioned over with a Silent Image to look like the surrounding terrain.

Player doesn't have any way to detect it, such as a detect magic spell. They also don't use a pole or walking stick to test where they're walking.

When they step over it, do they get a reflex save, with RAW? I might've remember reading somewhere that they DON'T get a save. And if they do, would the save be different if they were charging towards their enemy standing in front of it vs. just walking into it?


In general, this seems to be one of the worse traps you can possibly give your players, especially if there's no save and you add a pool of acid or a bunch of deadly creatures at the bottom. I give my players a reflex save on principle.

[OldTrees1]

Yes they still get a reflex save. It may be unfavorable circumstances(-2 circumstance penalty) but they still roll a reflex save when they need to suddenly reflexively react to a circumstance.

[Deophaun]

Here's the DMG on a pit trap, which answers both questions directly:


Covered pits are much more dangerous. They can be detected with a DC 20 Search check, but only if the character is taking the time to carefully examine the area before walking across it. A character who fails to detect a covered pit is still entitled to a DC 20 Reflex save to avoid falling into it. However, if she was running or moving recklessly at the time, she gets no saving throw and falls automatically.

[KillianHawkeye]

You always get a save. You even get saves when you're sleeping. You could ad hoc a penalty to the save if they're running or charging into the space in question, but I wouldn't make it more than a -5 or so.

For reference, the text of the grease spell contains the following text:

The DM should adjust saving throws by circumstance. For example, a creature charging down an incline that is suddenly greased has little chance to avoid the effect, but its ability to exit the affected area is almost assured (whether it wants to or not).

It doesn't give any suggestion on how big the penalty should be, but notice how it uses the words "little chance" and "almost assured". It strongly implies that there should still be some chance for the character to succeed at the save even when running or charging into the area.

Never take away a character's saving throw unless you have a really, really good reason.


EDIT: Well it appears that pit traps have an actual rule regarding this subject, but I'll leave my post intact for posterity as it's still a fairly sound precedent for people to be aware of.

[Deophaun]

Never take away a character's saving throw unless you have a really, really good reason.
Like the DMG saying you don't get a saving throw if you run over a pit trap.

[KillianHawkeye]

Like the DMG saying you don't get a saving throw if you run over a pit trap.

Yes, you caught me before my edit. :smallbiggrin:

[Deophaun]

Yes, you caught me before my edit. :smallbiggrin:
I took my second level in Swordsage this morning.

[Âmesang]

On a similar note… I imagine a Reflex save would be required if one used polymorph any object to turn a section of floor into a pool of lava?

(CL 20, as an example, should produce one that's 20 ft. wide × 20 ft. long × 5 ft. deep.)

[PacMan2247]

On a similar note… I imagine a Reflex save would be required if one used polymorph any object to turn a section of floor into a pool of lava?

(CL 20, as an example, should produce one that's 20 ft. wide × 20 ft. long × 5 ft. deep.)

A 5-foot thick floor? I can only assume we're in a giant's dwelling.

I imagine it would depend a little on what the floor is made of, and where it's located. Anything above ground level and the floor doesn't become a pool of lava, just a lot of things falling, in which case you're probably not going to argue your way into a Reflex save unless you're near a wall with something you could grab. If you're at ground level, the volume of lava created wouldn't be enough to become a significant hazard at the character levels you'd see things like that.

I could also see someone arguing that PAO changes one object or creature into another, so this couldn't be done with a stone floor, since that would be changing the state of the object, but not turning it into a different object.

[Âmesang]

Wouldn't that be like saying you could change a wooden chair into a newt… but you couldn't change a wooden chair into a stack of firewood? :smallconfused:

The 20 ft. × 20 ft. × 5 ft. volume was intended more as a simple example when dealing with 100 cu. ft. per level (thus 2,000 cu. ft. at 20th-level). Of course similarly I'm sure one could argue that the spell would only effect a single stone tile or plank of wood, but then I imagine that produces a slight paradox that you could change one object into a pile of leaves but could not change a whole pile of leaves into something, only change a single leaf.

[Keltest]

For my part, I am of the opinion that they don't call them reflex saves because of how carefully youre considering your every reaction. Its a reflex, and so doesn't necessarily require conscious recognition of the danger, just the ability to act.

[Flickerdart]

A character stepping into a silent image over a pit could start realizing that something is amiss as soon as his foot has started passing through the floor. At this point, a successful Reflex save could be anything from "I recognized that something is wrong before I shifted my weight to the leading foot" to "I push off the side of the pit to propel myself across it before I've fallen in."

So not only is it RAW, it's also very easy to justify.

[Calthropstu]

There are plenty of times where there is no reflex save.

An enlarged create pit for example where there is no place to step to to avoid it, or a 20 foot knock back effect throwing you 10 feet off a cliff.

One of my favorite ways of triggering a pit trap involves a 40 foot wide pit that is triggered by stepping on a square in the center which yanks out the support over the whole pit.

[PacMan2247]

Wouldn't that be like saying you could change a wooden chair into a newt… but you couldn't change a wooden chair into a stack of firewood? :smallconfused:

The 20 ft. × 20 ft. × 5 ft. volume was intended more as a simple example when dealing with 100 cu. ft. per level (thus 2,000 cu. ft. at 20th-level). Of course similarly I'm sure one could argue that the spell would only effect a single stone tile or plank of wood, but then I imagine that produces a slight paradox that you could change one object into a pile of leaves but could not change a whole pile of leaves into something, only change a single leaf.

Changing stone into lava is changing its physical state; changing a chair into firewood would be changing the arrangement of the components, so it's not a direct comparison. Turning a chair into firewood also doesn't require high-level magic. :smallamused:

The bit about the floor was just my initial surprise at the thought of it; I hadn't really meant anything by it. As far as changing a single tile or plank is concerned, as either a player or DM, assuming each was part of an existing floor, I would say that it's a portion of a completed object rather than an individual object itself because of the joining by mortar or nails/pegs.