Help with Sorcadin build

[danielxcutter]

NOTE: Thought exercise.

For those not in the know, a "Sorcadin" build is a Paladin 2/Sorcerer 4/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Sacred Exorcist 8 build, which manages to have 9th level spells, +16 BAB, Charisma synergy, and decent class features.

I've done a fair amount of research, and I think I get the basics of gishing: you use your spells to buff yourself so you can beat monsters with your magically enhanced stick, not for blasting; Arcane Strike is a great source of bonus damage for Sorcerer-gishes due to the large amount of spells per day they get; etc.

However, I still think that more advice would be useful.

For example: getting milage from that turning pool from Sacred Exorcist. Travel Devotion comes to mind, but are there others?

Also, I'm looking for thematic spells. The only thing that comes to mind is (Greater) Luminous Armor, but I'm sure there are others. Btw, I'm not sure if GLA is that good for a Sorcadin - you need to take the Arcane Preparation and the Strength damage is a pain to deal with.

Other kinds of advice is always welcome, such as gear, spells, feats, etc.

[Rebel7284]

I played a Paladin/Sorcerer/Swiftblade in the past which is close enough and here are some comments.

1. You run low on swift actions super fast. You want to use Wings of Cover, Wraithstrike, Belt of Battle activation, etc.
2. Battlefield control goes a long way. Solid Fog essentially solved a good third of the encounters in round one.
3. I did not have turn attempts, but the typical use would be devotion feats. The problem.. See 1. Swift actions are annoying. Animal Devotion, Travel Devotion, Law Devotion, Minor Shapeshift are all good. Divine Shield can be good too if you want higher defense and have a shield.

[Godskook]

GLA is worth 13+(4 vs. melee) AC.

A Mithral Breastplate with Spellsword and other ASF reducers is still only worth 5 base armor + 1/4ECL, up to +10 AC at level -20-(unless you have access to a crafter or caster who can unlock this sooner).

Greater Mage Armor is worth 6.

The resource investment to get rid of GLA's str damage is *FAR* less than a decent Mithral Breastplate, and you get far more value out of it when (G)LA comes online. Its your best option at basically every character level, afaik.

A rod of bodily restoration is cheap, too at 3100g, and eliminates the issue entirely.

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Law Devotion is another decent turning sink, iirc, and depending on your build, you can sometimes have the reach to not care about Travel Devotion.

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I never got to use it, but Thunderlance looked *AMAZING* for my Sorcadin. With a mediocre Str score and a spell lasting 10+ rounds, I was planning on simply not upgrading my weapon for a few levels and just buy better non-weapon magic items.

[MisterKaws]

I never got to use it, but Thunderlance looked *AMAZING* for my Sorcadin. With a mediocre Str score and a spell lasting 10+ rounds, I was planning on simply not upgrading my weapon for a few levels and just buy better non-weapon magic items.

Not to mention that it can be easily improved by spamming metamagic.

[danielxcutter]

Not to mention that it can be easily improved by spamming metamagic.

Specifically what metamagics?

[danielxcutter]

Bumping as I still don't have enough information yet.

[MisterKaws]

Specifically what metamagics?


Empower: basic.
Maximize: basic.
Snowcast: Opens up Substitution, Admixture for x2 damage, and all other energy-related feats.
Twin: Since all rolls and decisions are twinned, you basically get doubled damage for each attack.
Fell Drain: Death by negative level spam.
Entangling: 20ft weapon that entangles on hit?
Persist: If you just want a reliable weapon at all times. There's nothing saying that you can't have two Thunderlances at once, so you could just cast another metamagic-ed Thunderlance for harder battles.

[danielxcutter]

Empower: basic.
Maximize: basic.
Snowcast: Opens up Substitution, Admixture for x2 damage, and all other energy-related feats.
Twin: Since all rolls and decisions are twinned, you basically get doubled damage for each attack.
Fell Drain: Death by negative level spam.
Entangling: 20ft weapon that entangles on hit?
Persist: If you just want a reliable weapon at all times. There's nothing saying that you can't have two Thunderlances at once, so you could just cast another metamagic-ed Thunderlance for harder battles.


Most of these are a bit... out-of-the-box stuff, although I've thought of Fell Drain before. Don't think it fits "holy warrior/mage" too much, though.

[Crake]

Spontaneous casters cannot use sanctified spells without getting 5 levels in the exalted arcanist prestige class, a half bab, 4/5 spellcasting progression class.

[danielxcutter]

Spontaneous casters cannot use sanctified spells without getting 5 levels in the exalted arcanist prestige class, a half bab, 4/5 spellcasting progression class.

*points to the Arcane Preparation feat and coughs*

[Fuzzy McCoy]

Ruin Delver's fortune is a pretty amazing spell for sorcadins. Arcane fusion is as well, for extra buffing action. Swapping out your familiar for the ability to use metamagic normally is a really good trade (PHB II). At high levels, arcane spellsurge can be incredibly useful to buff and attack. If you can get circlet of rapid casting or a lesser rod of quicken, dimension step can be a really useful spell. If you keep your familiar and they can activate a wand, buying them a wand of it is also a viable way to get around the battlefield.

One of the best ways to use that turning pool is by playing an Illumian with the Naen and Hoon sigils. That allows you twice per day to apply metamagic to a spell by spending turn attempts instead of spell levels. Want to persist wraithstrike? Bite of the werebear? Shapechange?

[MisterKaws]

Just noticed something silly: Tunderlance gives you 20ft natural reach, so if you use Girallon's Blessing or Arms of Plenty(or both) and wield a normal Longspear or Lance(modified to be fully usable by the current number of spare hands, vide Savage Species) in the other hands, you can get 40ft reach really easily.

[EisenKreutzer]

Is an equivalent Paladin/Sorcerer/PrC build possible in Pathfinder?

If not, would making DSP Psionics/PoW/Akasha available make it possible?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Make your race Illumian (Races of Destiny), with the Naenhoon sigil (chosen race ability). That lets you spend Turn Undead uses to apply a metamagic feat you know to one of your spells up to 2/day, similar to Divine Metamagic but it works with arcane spells. Use this to make two of your buffs last all day, such as Wraithstrike and Shield, or Wraithstrike and Magic Circle Against Evil, or Wraithstrike and Greater Invisibility, or Wraithstrike and Draconic Polymorph (Draconomicon). Be sure you get Power Attack and Leap Attack (Complete Adventurer Errata (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/errata)).

Get an Elvencraft Composite Longbow (Races of the Wild), which counts as both a quarterstaff (double weapon) and a composite longbow. You'll need to pay for masterwork three times, but you can put three wand chambers (Dungeonscape) in it. Wands take the same type of action to activate as the casting time of the spell it contains (Rules Compendium), so put a Wand of Wings of Cover (Races of the Dragon) in that to automatically block an attack every round if needed. Also include a Wand of Rhino's Rush (Spell Compendium, Paladin list) which is a swift action and makes your next charge that round deal double damage.

Take the feat Ancestral Relic (BoED) and designate the above bow as your relic. Make it a custom Runestaff (Magic Item Compendium p223) and you can freely choose what spells it contains, how many times per day each one is usable, etc. Use this to get access to (Greater) Luminous Armor, since you'll otherwise need to prepare spells to be able to cast it. When the party would sell loot for half value, buy it from the party for that amount, and you'll get a portion of that money back when the gold is split. Sacrifice that loot into the relic for its full value, so it will cost less than half price to upgrade. The Runestaff can give you 1/day buffs that you wouldn't want to spend a spell slot on (Greater/Superior Resistance, spells you make Persistent), and you can even use it to get Dismissal to qualify for Sacred Exorcist. You can repick all of its magical properties every time you modify it, so you can swap out spells, swap spells for weapon enchants, and even put charges of spells on it like a magical staff.

Eventually you'll want to put +1 Defending on the bow and offhand staff portions and put Greater Magic Weapon on them every day to put their full bonus toward your AC (Defending always stacks with all other AC bonuses, including other Defending weapons). Make the main hand end of the staff portion +1 Valorous (Unapproachable East), which doubles your damage on a charge attack (or x3 with Rhino's Rush). Since Leap Attack is not worded as a multiplier, your damage will look something like this using modest numbers:

Str 18 +4, +3 Greater Magic Weapon, Armbands of Might (MIC), Rhino's Rush, Valorous weapon, (Extended or Persistent) Wraithstrike, two-handed Power Attack for -6 with Leap Attack.
Power Attack -6 is +12 two-handed damage, Armbands of Might make this +14, Leap Attack increases this to +28
+9 melee touch, 1d6+37 base, 3d6+111 charging, 4d6+148 critical.
Your Strength will almost definitely be significantly higher due to (Draconic) Polymorph and other buffs, that's only a modest estimate and it's not even counting Arcane Strike.

I would actually skip Arcane Strike. Start every fight with a powerful crowd control (Glitterdust, Web, Sleet Storm, Black Tentacles, Freezing Fog, etc.) to make your opponents less effective while you and your party focus fire them one at a time. Have plenty of (Rod of) Extended hour/level, persistent, and 24-hour buffs constantly active, since the Runestaff gets around your normally limited number of spells known. Be sure to have utility spells (and slots to cast them) like Alarm, Rope Trick, (Greater) Dispel Magic, Teleport, etc. You don't want to be hemorrhaging spell slots every encounter unless you know you'll be able to safely rest right afterward.

Get an Eternal Wand (MIC) of Hound of Doom (CW). Anyone who can cast arcane spells can activate an eternal wand regardless of what spells it contains. With your decent BAB, HP, and Cha score, the hound will be just as good as a vanilla animal companion. Give it a name like a certain dark elf ranger's figurine of wondrous power panther.

Consider picking up Practical Metamagic (RotD) for Persistent Spell, so you don't have to use Naenhoon to persist your low level spells like Shield and Wraithstrike and Expeditious Retreat and Swift Fly and Magic Circle Against Evil.

[Peat]

Is an equivalent Paladin/Sorcerer/PrC build possible in Pathfinder?

If not, would making DSP Psionics/PoW/Akasha available make it possible?

Possible but its a lot weaker. Big thing is the PrCs for it simply don't exist in PF. You can't use Abjurant Champion and Spellsword's first level for 6 levels of full BAB/Spellcasting. There's not even very many classes that give full spellcasting and 3/4 BAB, and a lot of them are religiously bound so difficult to stack. To do a Sorcadin, you either need to only take one level of Paladin (not so worth it), or accept you're never getting level 9 spells and with all that implies for spell progression (ouch), or have a BAB straight from sucktown.

There's also the problem that buff spells are less good (or at least, so everyone tells me), standard class features are stronger (so you give up more) and there's a number of decent gish-in-a-can classes. End result, probably not something to take to a heavy optimisation game.